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Thread Number: 51910
Hypothetical question: Can't 110 volt dryer vents/ fan speed be cut way down? |
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| Post# 743155 3/18/2014 at 23:46 (3,684 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
Just musing on designs, because I've been looking at 110 v compact machines, and saw a couple of videos of machines in use.
What struck me tonight is that there's always still a quite active vent with forced air coming out the back. So I started to wonder- How much venting is actually needed? Don't 110 appliances usually draw no more than 1500 watts? I started wiring up a spare Kenmore space saver in the garage I practically couldn't give away today to 110, after I searched replacement motors on ebay and noticed they were all 110v anyway. I went through this a bit a year or so ago with a small water heater, that I bought with both a 220 element and a 110, and learned that the wattage is cut to a fourth as much using the 110 element and wiring. So anyway, I got the Kenmore to power up the motor, with a 3 prong outlet wired to a standard grounded wall plug. But no heat- and since then discovered that the element has to be wired to 110 separately, which I'll probably do- because as much as I'd like to get a little 110 compact dryer, I don't want to lay down the $300 right now when I've got a full size 220 already in the garage (I'm eventually hoping to have machines inside the house in the bathroom), AND while I have this already small sized machine that appears may be actually able to be converted. (Pictured below) So anyway it struck me- if I only draw 1/4 of the 5400 watts of element with 110 volts, then the vent must likely be too large and moving too much air. Wouldn't it be better to cut the venting volume and speed down to 1/4, to retain as much of the little heating wattage the 110 offers? And I recalled the videos for the new compact 110 volters- it seems there is still a large vent with a really strong vortex. Do you think that is necessary? There's a youtube link to one below How hot do these dryers get compared to full sized 220? They - unfortunately I think- often have a full 20 minutes of cooldown at the end of their cycle- seems like a waste of time and power if unattended. I'm wondering if I get the Kenmore element wired if I can also cut down the venting- maybe a cover with half the diameter cut out- How is the air generated? Is it by the rotating drum? Anybody with any experise or thoughts about dryer venting vs. element power operating temperature, and voltage? Should we trust the corporate decisions, or will there be a better way? CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK 
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| Post# 743172 , Reply# 2 3/19/2014 at 02:04 (3,683 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
I've used one since 1984. I wouldn't alter anything. Stopping up vents/ducts makes the dryer take longer, not shorter. This building just had the repairman out because a 240V Maytag wasn't drying. The outside vent was clogged (the maint guy is unbelieveably lazy).
Yes jeans/towels and the like take longer @120V, most everything else finishes in 40min. | ||
| Post# 743354 , Reply# 4 3/19/2014 at 19:28 (3,683 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Sorry Dave- you're not getting it. The motor is obviously 110 volt- though I haven't confirmed it yet officially-
and I think a great many, if not most of the motors are 110- 220 is then used only for the heating element. Plugged into a ground fault 110/120 v plug, it is powering up the unit- both the drum and blower- at normal operating speed- So I've just been out in the garage taking the dimensions and musing about it- My Spacesaver is taller, but some of it is more space for older controls, and then several inches deep than the new compact units- a standard 4 inch vent near the bottom of the back- I'm sure it weighs more than the new stuff- but it's here already at least! since I got the idea yesterday- further internet research has confirmed the obvious- now the heating element itself has to be wired for 110 instead of 220- with the unfortunate quartering of the wattage- the 5400 watt heating unit will then pull about 1350 watts- the question now is- how many watts is the motor pulling? I only have about 150 watts left before the 1500 level that most 110 v appliances are cut at(I'm specifically thinking of my oil filled radiators- which I most often hook to line level individual baseboard thermostats, and are all the heating I need in north florida.) Obviously the unit should then run on a circuit all by itself- preferably a dedicated circuit, with a ground fault outlet- in a perfect world. It's going to pull about 1500 at least on it's own- which brings me to my latest musings and speculations- specifically regarding mostly the venting speed, and possibly even the motor speed and power. I'll probably tinker this still at some level- once the weather and my schedule clear a bit- I'll see then if the ground fault or the breaker then blows, with both the motor and reduced heating element power powered up together- Not expecting trouble though, while it took a couple of attemps to wire the plug to the right terminals on the 3 prong outlet- with some good 10 guage NM line between- the ground fault plug absorbed it well.- I wouldn't want to messing around on old circuits with fuses! yet the problem remains- a much too powerful blower pushing what little heat the 1350 watts of 110 power will get outta the element- (which would last a lifetime I guess!) So, without yet having any look inside, and knowing very little- I'm guessing that the blower is also powered off the same motor- is the air generated by a blower unit itself or from some kinda fins around the tub? I've seen one picture that looks like a little blower unit- is it run off the motor with a belt and a pulley- ?? if that's the case- perhaps a larger pulley and longer belt coiuld slow the airflow down- (I learned this bike riding!) Another alternative might be to cut the power and speed of the motor- wouldn't cutting the power with a rheostat slow it all down? The element would obviously still need the full juice. I'm not sure what the physics of the motor might dictate then- would the motor have the power to turn it all slower? Or would it stress it? Please don't naysay if you don't really know! I think it would be great if both the speed of the blower and the speed of the drum were reduced- and it would definitely be a quieter unit- but what is the more important at this point is simply slowing down the blower and the rate of the discharge of air only heated a quarter as much. Reducing the outlet would only collect more lint- but perhaps not at 220 volt levels. I'm also wondering about LINT- What causes it? Is it more influenced by temperature or by the speed of the tumbling? The lint is supposed to be trapped before venting, but the vent obviously has to be cleaned out- because of lint in the vent air and I see pictures of people venting UP? Doesn't that make less sense? (see middle photo in ad link below) Is there a LINT expert in the house? Is there any reduction in lint at lower temperatures or lower tumbling speeds? CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK on eBay 
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| Post# 743358 , Reply# 5 3/19/2014 at 19:34 (3,683 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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| Post# 743365 , Reply# 6 3/19/2014 at 20:14 (3,683 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Okay looking at this all some more-
I've been perusing replacement motors on ebay- all 110- 120 volt and all seem to run at 1725 rpms- 5.5 amps is thrown out there a lot- not sure how that relates to watts and how much wattage the motor pulls below is a link to a motor and blower overhaul kit- So it's obvious that probably some variance between the motor speed and blower velocity could be achieved with pully sizes and varying belt- may be difficult in practice- not sure at this point- looks like the motors have shafts on both sides- one for tub, one for blower ? I guess. Also some altering of the blower fins could obviously cut the velocity as well- still think the shrouding or partial diversion of blower stream may be the most practical and easily accomplished- The tub isn't as much an issue because the spin drying isn't bad- A lot of people say that cutting the wattage of the heating element 1/4 increases the drying time by 4- that doesn't make sense, because the spin dry aids drying even without heat- but certainly makes it all longer. but what I'm interested here is maintaining more the reduced heat I would still personally favor any machines designed to rotate slower and vent the lesser 110 heat not so quickly- but that's just me- I'm the same way with AC units- Give me a slower blower whose noise doesn't drive me crazy all by itself! CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK on eBay | ||
| Post# 743391 , Reply# 7 3/19/2014 at 21:17 (3,683 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Had some dinner and looking at this further-
So I see this motor (link below) and the blower wheel with fins is attached directly to the motor, and shrouded by a plastic assembly that directs the air- So then if this is typical, there's little chance of "changing gears" or any pulley sizes to make the blower velocity less intense- bummer- but it may be easy to baffle that- or make changes to the shroud to reduce velocity It also maybe already answers a question I was forming- Apparently their are already models in cases that look much like mine- Kenmore and I think I've seen Whirlpool- that come from the manufactures already wired as 110/120 volts- so I was wondering- in the 110 models already out there for years- 1. Is there a different type of heating element? And 2. Has any alteration been done concerning the vent velocity, to compensate for lower heat? Knowing the corporate landscape, and obbsessions with the QUANTITIES of production, I'd be willing to bet that the answer to the second question at least is "no", and that the same motor and shrouds and blower fins are used whether the unit is sold as 220 volts or as 110- Unfortunate- and I'd be happy if someone with insider knowledge who knows for sure tells me differently. Anyway- I've wasted enough time on it today- but enjoyed mulling it over- if I get into the case- I'll report here what I find CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK on eBay 
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| Post# 743405 , Reply# 9 3/19/2014 at 21:59 (3,683 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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OK- good that tells me something- Thank you
I've been watching videos about it all on youtube I think the way to go at this point may be just to get it running on 110 and see how it goes- cutting down on the airflow would probably be practical, but I'm wondering if it's worth the risk- I'm just speculating that with 11o power to the heating element- I don't think the upper temp cut-off thermostat would ever reach cut off temp- I suppose the ultimate tinkering would be to find at what air flow restriction level that started to happen- and then backing off from that point. I'm just amazed now that the blower is actually more "sucking" the air through the system and actually most near the outlet end of the line CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK | ||
Post# 743421 , Reply# 10 3/19/2014 at 23:00 (3,683 days old) by combo52  (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Reducing the airflow for a 120 volt dryer?
Yes you could do this, BUT it will make the dryer use more energy, take longer to dry and likley cause problems with clogged vent systems.
You correctly figured out the a 240 volt dryer operated on 120 volts only produces 1/4 the heat, but the interesting thing is it usually only takes three times as long to dry a load NOT four times as long and the other end result is that you actually save about 15% total electrical consumption. This is because of the higher airflow compared to heat input. The only reason to restrict the airflow was if you were very concerned about the amount of heated or cooled air you were sucking out of your home, and if this is an important factor for you you should locate the dryer on the porch or in the garage anyway. Do note, there is no such thing as a 110 or 220 volt dryer, check the model# tag or the specs on the motor, heating element Etc of the dryers you are talking about. If you are using the wrong voltages in your calculations it makes you look very poorly informed. | ||
| Post# 743723 , Reply# 11 3/20/2014 at 20:59 (3,682 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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I'm just using common terms 110 for 110/120 Volt and 220 for 220/240 volt I guess- I think the names have changed through the years-
the difference being whether one or two 110/120 volts wires are hooked to something I see them advertised on craigslist and ebay as 110v. I guess they are more officially 120v these days- I don't think a smaller airflow with a lower heat 110 machine or wiring will necessarily clog more- but a crude baffle might- I'm just saying that with less heat going on in the dryer, the venting probably theoretically doesn't have to be the same- I'm still wondering about "LINT"- Does it occur less in lower heat? Is it more a product of airflow and tumbling? I'm just guessing the heat factor means more- but just guessing. Anyone familiar with the "science of lint"? Below is a video I found that's very comprehensive about the basic principles- and also demonstartes how the 110v motors are wired into the 220 circuit, and only the greater voltage used in the heating elements. What I'd like to compare someday are the ducts and blowers and heating elements inside my own Space Saver machine- wired and sold as 240 v, with those units that look the same in every way and sold as 110. Is ANYTHING different about them? I wouldn't be surprised if they have the same ducts, blower and even heating elements- I'm not talking about their wiring- if they have the same blowers and the same ducts- it just seems to me that they could be made more efficient by retaining more heat with less air flow. all I'm sayin.... CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK | ||
| Post# 743724 , Reply# 12 3/20/2014 at 21:05 (3,682 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Here's a 110 machine on my local craigslist:
and some pictures of it apart- but none of the blower or ducts- so go figure. Cleared some garage space around the nachine today- and may take the back cover off soon- is I decide to wire it 110- I'd probably replace thechord with the really old 3 prong plug. CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK on Jacksonville Craigslist | ||
| Post# 743893 , Reply# 13 3/21/2014 at 14:25 (3,681 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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OK-
I'm not going to keep running all this into the ground- but may dredge it up as I tinker more. Below is a link to the best discussion on LINT I could find on the net- (I've only more got the feeling that the manufacturers are sort of avoiding the issue as it relates to this discussion of air flow and lower temps of 120 v power- and i suspect that's because the U.S. manufacturers at least may be not compensating for lesser power at all, in machines that are basically the same size and weught and with the same motor as the 240v models, and still just as heavy- I've come to feel that much of it revolves always to the end of selling lots of gasoline, but that's another weighty issue and discussion) Anyway- as much as I'd like to get a newer asian 110 unit- and they are putting out a model that more like 21-22 inches deep instead of 16 or 17- I'm still enthused that the Space Saver I already have- and couldn't sell for even $40 last summer- actually has more space inside it's much heavier frame. So it's got some potential for 120 wiring- I may eventually convert the plug itself instaed of jumping it with the 3 prong to wall plug homemade rig- Some of my thinking started more leaning to 110 volts when last month my other dryer melted the 240 outlet and almost set the garage stud on fire- I was fortunately right there as it started to blaze- and I have to take some responsibility- I had heard some arcing on start-up- that I didn't realize realize could grow into such a problem- I first thought that perhaps a lizard had crawled inside the conduit and gotten fried- but a lesson to learn for sure- If you hear arcing from a high powered plug especially- don't keep running it! I've replaced the fried plug and it's run a few loads since, but all this as I'm making plans and working to have machines in my bathroom inside the house and not the unattached garage- so I'm more fire-hazard conscious now- Plastic DOES eventally start to burn! Anyway- I'm stll thinking that lint may not even be such a problem at lower heat of 120 volts- CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK | ||
| Post# 743927 , Reply# 14 3/21/2014 at 16:30 (3,681 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Done some research now-
here's my macine basically, the same cabinet ans size I think but sold as a 110/120v unit- it is 3.4 cubic feet otherwise- so larger than the asian units but much more expensive new- used ones ARE out there quite a bit I think, for much less- I paid $75 for this one two years back, and have seen them as low as $25 on craigslist The link below is to the customer reviews- and the lowest rating from reviews seems to address this very issue- the most common complaint is low heat and extended drying time- I'm just guessing that the blower and venting is the same as with my 220 v model- but hope I'm wrong. If it is though- it's just a bit stupid and could be easily adjusted to retain more heat- There are also some specs listed here, and the 15 amp circuit is described as minimal- so I'm going to search around and see if I can ascertain whether there is indeed a different element or motor used. I'll bet the motor at least is the very same. CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK | ||
| Post# 744155 , Reply# 15 3/22/2014 at 13:23 (3,680 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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I've got 120v HEAT going now!
It's still just jumped with my own 3 prong female to two prong 120 adapter- so I'm going to change the whole cord out when I get a suitable replacement- though I have lots of fresh NM 12g wire I could just wire to a plug- so that may happen- i think it would be nicer to have a normal looking heavy line Yes, you have to jump the neutral central to the old second RED 240 terminal to close the 120 circuit on the heater coil- And so I was a bit wrong on the coil- apparently they DO change the coil between a 120 v unit and a 240- generally going from 5 coils down to 3 in the 110.- Yet I seemed to be getting some good solid heat off the 240 coil on 120, so I'm not planning to change t for now- but I still think the blower fan and chamber are the same whether the model is sold for 120 or 240- My idea now- if I find the unit not heating as much as I'd like- is to perhaps get another blower fan wheel, and at my convenience- simply drill some holes in some or all of the fans- that would surely cut the air velocity- and I could start gradually and do more later- depending on what kind of a job it may be- I haven't even opened up the blower housing at this point- But I have noticed one thing- there seems to be ONLY ONE blower fan listed as a replacement- NOT a separate one for 240 and 120v models- so that might be a corporate decision based on production levels that may be able to be tweaked easily to get more heat retention in the unit on 120 power- there's also a HOLE manufactured into the top of the heating element duct, so that in fact all the heat is NOT being diverted through the tub, but being vented into the unit in general, and even may be raising the operating temp of the motor itself. I may drive a piece of pie pan aluminum over it with some sheet metal screws. anyawy- VERY ENTHUSED NOW! and glad I didn't yet balk for the asian unit This is GREAT- I'm sure glad I couldn't sell it before. I'm going to take some photos of it all sooon, so stay TUNED! 
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Post# 744179 , Reply# 16 3/22/2014 at 14:56 (3,680 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 744294 , Reply# 18 3/22/2014 at 23:58 (3,680 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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It's as much in my mind at least that it's just blowing the lesser heat right out of it- it's costing power and that costs me time and money.
If it were taxes being spent- people would hang for it- but it's just coprporations eating up your own income by not making an adjustment over something- choosing the easy way to put out something in both voltages without adjusting the parameters- and throwing the same parts into everything- You'll just have to labor more to pay a bigger utility bill- climate concerns not withstanding. The drying time should not be solely dependent on the wattge of the coil- Whirlpool/ Kenmore has taken the easy way out by using the same set-up other than the coils, and the machines weigh a lot by more modern standards and so they still have greater transportation and shipping concerns. TYPICALLY- as I've looked at heating elements- the ones specified for 120 volts are much more EXPENSIVE than the 240 volt wires- when they have less wire and coils in them- and generally on the same frames of their respective eras. The ducts and blowers are the same for both 120 and 240 volts. I've got the machine wired now with a normal 120 volt plug, So I'm all set to try some clothes in it when I wash some- for now I've covered the hole at the top of the elewment vent with a simple piece of duct tape- but not sure it will last long. I've tried to date the machine but got inconclusive results- I think it was made about 1978-80. It really wasn't very dirty inside- so had either been cleaned along the way, or used little. I also thought of putting more screen mesh into the lint filter to decrease airflow sucked through by the blower, and that's another fairly easy thing to do- For now I just need to see how it goes. I'm tinkered out for awhile now at least and just need to test it. I'm wondering how I could get some kind of temp reading inside the drum. Sorry- no pictures yet- I was too busy working out the bugs, including taking the back cover off again unnecessarily one last time, when the dryer timer had simply reached cooldown and I was then puzzling as to why it wasn't getting hot - I knew I was punch drunk by then! Below- these units are getting wider now- and the cubic feet is actually more than my Kenmore now- and at half the weight- I have to wonder.... 
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| Post# 744298 , Reply# 19 3/23/2014 at 00:23 (3,680 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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| Post# 744599 , Reply# 21 3/23/2014 at 20:35 (3,679 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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The extra screen idea is for the lint filter, not the blower-
and I disagree with most of your post- and I think less heat will at least DISLODGE less lint, if not make less of it. Heat will get it more airborn, so lets see if we can get some to FLY! Anyway I just finished a load- a smaller laundty basket full- the unit is 3.4 square feet- of about 8 pair cotton underwear, two tee shirts, a top sheet, two light towels and five pairs of socks- ONE HOUR dried it almost completely- the towels were slightly damp, the tee shirts just the slightest trace of damp, and all else dry. I periodically opened the door to check the temp- yes, yes 120v heat- probably NEVER GETTING NEAR thermal temp cut-off- So I'm satisfied covering the little hole at the top of the heater element duct with duct tape is no problem- and I'll probably drive some pie plate alumuniinum with two screws over it permanently- and I'll eventually decrease the airflow- the motor speed was just another idea earlier, and I'm not going to play with that- but less airflow only makes sense, and I have another idea for that- perhaps some drillings in the blower housing itself- and here is why- when I began this thread I was under the impression that the blower BLEW air through the system- while now I see NO- it really only sucks air out of the drum! The blower is at the END of the endflow and only pushes it out of the vent it lies inches from. Then I was thinking the blower sucks the air through the whole system- and this it may do a slight bit- but the drum is NOT airtight- it really seems to be only exhausting the drum- the heater coil is on the other side of the back- and its' duct goes up and into the drum- The hot air heated will RISE and go into the drum whether the blower has influence or not- also the tumbling clothes will create a vacuum by their very movement- so now I believe that the blower will not affect the level of heat into the drum- only the RATE at which it exits- so the drum is geting warm now- but not HOT and the clothes are drying- but they CAN dry faster and incidentally- I didn't use any venting out of the machine- I opened the bathroom window and turned on the overhead bathroom vent, and closed the door- north Florida temp approx 65- 70 degrees- and I had no problems with excessive heat or lint. An hour's worth of drying- VERY MODERATE thin lint coat over lint screen- it only confirms my own belief- there's less lint here than my other 240 volt, though it's larger no I may not put mesh there- but may try because it's so easy- but if I really want to reduce the airflow I'll drill holes in the blower fins, or the blower housing- the fin idea would draw less lint into the outer housing- but either will cut velocity and keep the blower from sucking the low heat out so fast. it's a olong long way to cut-off temp on 120 v and I'm already at 1 hour drying time- if I can cut that to 45 I'd be very happy and only about 15 minutes more than my larger dryer on 240- so on we go..... | ||
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Post# 744605 , Reply# 22 3/23/2014 at 21:00 (3,679 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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The blower pulls air through the element housing to heat it, through the drum to extract moisture from the tumbling clothes, through the filter, then blows it out the exhaust. Relying only on convection currents of heated air rising in the element housing into the drum is likely not going to work very well ... the blower needs to actively pull air through the element. Too much reduction on airflow cuts the rate at which moisture exits the drum and tumbling clothes. The drying process is not only about the heating, it's also very much about the airflow. Full-240v dryers with clogged exhaust ducting get hot but drying speed is (severely) reduced due to the impact on (not) moving the moisture out. Heat does not cause lint. Lint is from the physical abrasion of the fabric during tumbling. The only reason for a filter in the dryer is to catch majority of the lint before it gets into and clogs the exhaust ducting ... or accumulates into an unsightly mess on the ground outside the house at the exhaust hood. The airflow pulls the lint particles out of and off of the clothes (so they're not left linty), but it does not *cause* the lint. | ||
| Post# 744684 , Reply# 23 3/24/2014 at 01:29 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Alright- I respect your view but I'm still not sure if its right-
as I said above- the drum isn't airtight- I have a lot of doubt about how much air is actually pulled past the coil by the dryer blower at the other end of the exhaust vent- then there is also that HOLE at the top of the heating element duct- below is a picture- not mine I got from another thread- but the configuration is exactly the same as mine- only my hole at the top of the heater duct on the right is not that large or round. I was sticking y finger in there when I'd first turn it on while rewiring to see if the coils were heating- I felt no particular strong airflow, nor excessive heat, and the hole itself would prevent a lot of vaccum effect past it- so I think the coil heat IS actually largely convection. I taped over the hole and will seal permanantly it just to not let insufficient heat escape there. I was toying with an idea about turbo-charging the system by running some of the final vent back into the heating duct, and the nice round hole in this unit looks enticing to run a tube into, plus it wouldn't pass the coil that way- but I nixed that with respect to it being MOIST air and needing some escape- the small 120 v heat blowing SO HARD out the back is still another matter. Incidentally I ordered another heating coil, as this one proved not even labled to be the 5400 I thought- 3700 or something I think it said before I stuck it back in. So, yes, I think your airflow concerns are more paramount in my concerns as well- but it just still seems an excessive vent with such little heat, and then there's the fact that the same blower and ducts are used in the 240 models. So in short I don't see the blower sucking air past the tumbling clothes. I see the tumbling clothes getting air by tumbling and through the heat duct opening and around the drum edges, but the air is only being vented out, not sucked through the heating duct. I may take a pie plate cover the vent, worm clamp the wrap- but cut the bottom third off- so lint can still escape and try that- I MAY someday- just to experiment- better still as far as i'm concerned would be to reduce the fin volume- filing, grinding , breaking, but probably best drilled here and there, to reduce the blast out of the vent- if it didn't work, just put another in- Probabaly more viable than the duct cover, but harder and more exspense to reverse. May even take some strain off the old motor by not constantly pushing so much air. You may be right about the lint and probably are- but an hour's worth of drying at very low heat didn't produce a healthy "peel" off the filters- I had to scrape the small amount- so at this point I don't see it as much of a problem beyond routine maintenance, and if I reduce the airflow sometime in the future- I will at least get a good feel for what the norm is now- then I can more have a feel for what's what by trial and error and not speculation 
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| Post# 744687 , Reply# 24 3/24/2014 at 01:37 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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I this thread the owner of this machine thinks the fins got ground down from rubbing against the cover- but I wonder if they've been broken or ground down by someone trying to reduce the velocity of the exhaust-
again- not my picture- from another thread here (link) Wish mine was the color of that one there. CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK 
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| Post# 744688 , Reply# 25 3/24/2014 at 01:56 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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In fact blocking the end vent may not have a good effect- while the heat so far is far from dangerous
and the lint level nil- it would create a blow back and still the blades would catch as much air resistence- I'll probably reduce the fins in some way- that simply will lower the exhaust velocity- time will tell- I don;t plan to do this soon but now I'm simply intrigued by the question CLICK HERE TO GO TO harpon's LINK on eBay | ||
| Post# 744703 , Reply# 26 3/24/2014 at 05:00 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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NOW after watching a couple of videos about replacing the blower wheel-
I'm doubting that I'll do anything to the fins- or at least NOT with a new blower wheel- because the replacement involves taking the dryer completely aprt- from both sides- the drum out belt off- turning nuts on the motor shaft with SAE wrenches I don't have, removing the back cover, etc, etc etc. in short- beyond me and beyond a level of involvement I want- I could still file the fins down a bit- and that wouldn't be too hard- but virtually irreversible without replacing the fan- if it broke, I'm screwed too bad- replacing the fan is ridiculously difficult, even for a bicycle mechanic of days past. I may try the pie plate idea on the vent- but if it doesn't work well that's that. Hey what about MORE COIL on another separate line further up the element vent? sorta joking- mount a benz-o-matic in the back and sticking into that top vent hole? below- one of my more practical t inker toys...... 
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| Post# 744715 , Reply# 27 3/24/2014 at 06:41 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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I rethought of the other idea I had earlier and forgot:
possible drillings in the blower duct above the blower- they could be screened maybe , or even slightly spacing the duct away from the body with something- leaving a sliver of air leak- THESE solutions would be easy to do and fairly easy to reverse I think- especially any spacing solution- any way, the blower would be drawing in neutral air from the dryer case and with less force out of the drum- letting more heat build up, but still having plenty of escape- If you think about it, the constant between the 120 and 240 volt models is the blower and duct set-up, and the drum speed and tumbling are the same, the variable is the heat put in- a full 1/4 less the wattage at half the voltage So the drying time is extended- with a plus that no exterior venting is easier to achieve if it's not a scorching Florida summer day- But why is the time extended? Because there's less heat. So the heat needs a chance to build up to the more "normal" operating temp- aby small cuts in the air flow shouldn't make that much of a difference, because the moisture is leaving the clothes more slowly- So I personally think there's a margin to work with- the heat will never build up to 240volt levels anyway - so a gentler air flow should handle lesser temps curving up on a graph to a point where the loss of air flow becomes too great to remove the moist air- I thnk it's some ways out there on the graph, and the drying time can obviously be cut with no real safety issues- If I were to design a dryer- I think I'd put the 120 volt heating coils under a drum that had slots in it to fan it upwards,and surrounded by a light aluminum shroud to keep it there, except I'd then vent it out the top, with possibly a small fan motor attached to a thermostat like the one on your car's radiator below- outside airflow on the blower duct (removed here) on the left could be introduced to reduce air from the drum without altering the blower, but that is a HUGE opening for the lint filter in a smaller drum and using much lower heat 
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| Post# 744821 , Reply# 30 3/24/2014 at 17:01 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Yes- but again-
You are posting an image and text about a GAS dryer- and talking as if there's some USUAL amount of heat- and I chose that word instead of "normal"- when in this dryer on 120 volt current- there's almost NO heat- nothing HOT - just a little bit WARM- well UNDER cutoff temp- and then still- in the discussions about how much air is drawn from the heat source in some "airtight" system- there is that large gaping hole at the top of the heating duct- the silver tube on the right in the photo above- It CAN"T POSIIBLY be an airtight vacuum- "If air is allowed to leak in through any point other than the heat source, drying efficiency is greatly affected"- well there IS the leak- manufactured right in, and currently covered with duct tape on my own unit- now two drying loads on 120v on- The temp of the drum is the issue- barely warm air is reaching the clothes on 120, yet still being vented by the same apparatus, in the same volume and velocity, as the air heated by a 240 element on a 240 model- just doesn't make sense or bespeak of a concern for efficiency- Look at the reviews at Sears, where these units still sell for twice what the asian units go for- the same complaint is often heard- "no heat, too long drying time" for the 120 volt unit. Theres simply not enough heat here to "cause hot spots or premature failure" just the reverse I know this is an age when we want to have faith in the corporations and their decisions and policies, but sometimes we have to realize that these decisions are sometimes based on their need to turn out product faster, and not on the changing needs of the consumjer or social landscape- which grows more mobile and crowded. Years ago, Whirlpool/Kenmore decided to vent the 240 and 120 volt units the same way, despite a variance in heat input. I simply think that was a manufacturing- based decision and not a consumer oriented one. Back when I got a degree in Journalism in the late '70's, there was still more a thing known as "consumer reporting" where this very type of issue likely got more discussion and credence, but these days an internet mob is more apt to jump to corporate defense out of political correctness. Issues of safety are not that appropriate and a bit over-concerned here I think, if you actually felt the temps here. Frankly, the automatic "MR. SAFETY!!" responses are slightly annoying- when as I tried to imply in my title- I'm just thinking hypothetically and tinkering here and there when I can easily do so. What would actually be more appropriate for this unit on 120 volt power is a smaller blower fan to move the lesser heat out at a slower rate, and maybe I should be getting some big dollars from Whirlpool to make that happen, instead of having thugs surround my dwelling to keep me from discussing THE WEATHER on the internet, which has indeed been the case. anyway, good luck. | ||
| Post# 744827 , Reply# 31 3/24/2014 at 17:10 (3,678 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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And another thing I'm bothered by- the BLOWER FAN.
Seems like it would be incredibly easy to have it removable from the BACKSIDE alone, WITHOUT taking the machine all the way apart, front and back. Very SUSPICIOUS in my mind at least- too stupid actually to be just an oversight. They don't want that changed or serviced easily- perhaps you;ll just buy new again! But then like I said- I've been a bicycle person- over 40 years to really know the nuts and bolts and see the trends- and the oil driven corporate conglomerate has been defecating all over cycling in so many ways, YES- I have more a distrust of it. | ||
| Post# 745077 , Reply# 34 3/25/2014 at 15:13 (3,677 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Post# 745081 , Reply# 35 3/25/2014 at 15:48 (3,677 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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I'm flabbergasted. Everyone here tells you you shouldn't reduce the airflow in the dryer and still you persist.
If you hang laundry outside, it dries quicker in colder, dryer weather with more wind, than in warmer, more humid weather with less wind. Drying is heat x airflow x time. It's that simple. Lowering the airflow means more of one of the other factors, which mean if you don't add more heat (a bigger heating element) you will need more time to dry. And more time means a higher electricity usage. | ||
| Post# 745091 , Reply# 36 3/25/2014 at 17:17 (3,677 days old) by thefixer () | ||
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"Anybody with any experise or thoughts about dryer venting vs. element power operating temperature, and voltage?" You have been given good corroborating advice but had apparently already made up your mind regarding your theory, so whats the point??? | ||
| Post# 745134 , Reply# 37 3/25/2014 at 18:52 (3,677 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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The point is I can think and experiment for myself- now even with a good bit of data from a machine I have in my possesion.
Forgive me if I take your expertise with a grain of salt, but I've had people telling me I can't lower the strings of my violin without paying a luthier and argued with people over Global Warming who don't watch a half dozen radar and satellite images every day, monitor the Mississippi water levels, or frequently search info on the Austrailian Drought or the Sierra snowpack. Yes- this thread started out with the lable "hypothetical question" and a few days ago I had a lot less insight to the nature of what stood before me But there are two factors here that keep me making the same statements like: "This dryer needs less venting on 120 volts. Save some energy, save some money and save some time. There seems to be less lint on less heat." I lived for three years in Needles California out in the desert- I could put a t-shirt outside to dry- against rental corporation policy I might add- and it would be dry in 15 minutes on the calmest of 115 degree days- it's easy for you to make these broad statements about heat v. airflow- but where exactly is your proof? Power company affiliated Mr. Roper of the Westinghouse slave wage bondage? I'm sorry if you don't think he's more interested in taking back your wages while you blame your taxes, but my trust isn't so great. At best, I'm talking about a design that has been in service and changed little in 50 years, so maybe time itself is simply catching up to the little Kenmore in a world much changed around it, The first energy crisis was a mere 40 years back after all. I have the machine in front of me and testing it- I can see the change in the coil, but not the ducts or blower, I can read the reviews at Sears and I can see the drying time and even open the door to check the temperature (Is there any manual that insists I wear a flameproof NOMEX racing suit that's been NASCAR approved? Some internet expert somewhere might tell me that- nothing personal, it's the landscape here) I can feel the level of humidity in the room, feel the stream of air and see the lintless floor behind the unpiped exhausted vent And it all may be VERY GOOD- IN FACT it may be what people want- Because I'll tell you this : You probably don't need an outside vent in most of the country for most of the year if you're not sitting next to the mnachine on the toilet the lengthy time it's drying, because there's not enough heat or steam or lint to worry about. COOL! But I'll bet SOMEONE then would say THAT was wrong too. I have to have a vent! It's CODE somehow! Because you're more concerned with expressing the common base of knowledge you believe you have, than to what I'm saying NOW (and not days ago here) YES- I have a basic distrust of things corporate these days, and horror stories I could tell- but not here- to back them up plenty. And that's above and beyond the thoughts I said earlier that sometimes corporations make decisions based on levels of production- these particular ones being decades and decades ago,. If I end up cutting the velocity of air coming out the back now- I'm VERY convinced it WILL cut the drying time, without danger, but it might increase the need to external pipe the unit again too and that might not be good. If it was stil heating up with 240 volts- I'd more likely feel you MIGHT BE RIGHT in your opinion, but not at 120 volt levels. That's still my opinion with the machine here- I'm not talking about any other models, I couldn't- THIS one I've researched and used. You can't enforce your opinion onto my experience, just because someone writing of things in general said something contrary in some generalized policy. You are sort of assuming the machine was engineered to perfection to begin with, while I see it more as a cheap adaptation. Lower your Jane Eyre Austin Sensibilities please! You still may be right, but you can't enforce my considered opinion- Time will tell, if I tinker more. Don't be too "flabergasted" by my "theory" folks, I have the machine here with me to test, while yours is more the theory. I am grateful to have this machine and happy I didn't sell it for $40 last summer- I'd paid $75 two years ago It's still very much drying on 120, although I had only occasion to use it several times before I got a larger 240 volter to replace it in the garage, so I wish I had a better feel for how it actually did on more power. I want maybe smaller machines indoors and that nasty situation with the 240 volt outlet frying itself last month really tilted me toward using 110 power in the house- call me Mr. Safety if you will! Yet I wouldn't buy one of these new now these datys in 120 especially- it's almost $600 new while you can get an even slightly larger cubic foot asian machine that weighs half as much for half the money. I'll be installing a new heater element in a week or two., so I'll have the back off again. And I'l take a closer look at the blower housing and duct- I may likely try to decrease the flow by getting air into the duct by spacing- drilling the duct would be more radical- and any changes to the fan almost irreversible, but I may see how easily the fins may grind- doubt I'll go that route- but now I've simply got an idea- a short-gap fix- I could in fact simply impede the vent at the end for testing purposes only- a sliver of air, and I may try to vary any gap I might open between the duct and the drum just to see if I can hear or sense what pressure there is there. It wouldn't be any final solution- and measuring any percentage of loss is pure speculation, I'm thinking 20 to 40 percent wouldn't really be too much, so I could guess 20 and then double it later if I need to. If you're right about airflow to that extent, then I wouldn't go further, but my gut feeling is that this dryer could vent less heat and still be getting rid of the mositure just as fast. I may cover part of the lintscreen with some foil, as a test as well, but independently of other manipulation. It's so GIGANTIC that I could probably cover two thirds with aluminum and not reduce airflow that much- depending on the duct pressure- if it's really sucking hard a 4 inch diameter circle of volume will still vent about as fast, only with more velocity at the lint trap. I think it would still trap the small amount of lint too- The two loads I've done have seen very sparse lint, If most of it were still be in the clothes and I'd never know it. But if I sucseed in raising the heat, and there's more lint, then YOUR theory about that is wrong too. Anyway, can't believe I'm wasting this much time on this- simpy intrigued a bit now- try some simple things and go from there. | ||
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Post# 745144 , Reply# 38 3/25/2014 at 19:33 (3,677 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan) |
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??? Where is the new Hide Members Posts Box ? | ||
| Post# 745171 , Reply# 39 3/25/2014 at 20:56 (3,677 days old) by thefixer () | ||
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Well...you made me laugh...so at least, I got something out of your diatribe. | ||
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Post# 745186 , Reply# 40 3/25/2014 at 21:44 (3,677 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Yes Nancy you gave us all a good laugh | ||
| Post# 745374 , Reply# 41 3/26/2014 at 18:25 (3,676 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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Yes- go back and talk among your Springer selves-
I've got things to learn and discuss and self-absorbed authority to deny. I'll report back on whatever I do and find later while the blowhards will just sell you the machine they stopped working on about the time the Super Bowl came along...... LOL- U pop! | ||
| Post# 745464 , Reply# 42 3/27/2014 at 05:12 (3,675 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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| Post# 745578 , Reply# 43 3/27/2014 at 16:17 (3,675 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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It was Barbara Boxer who said: "Fear and intimidation have always been part of the Reagan/Bush administration"
Pay your higher power bill to General 240 and the ever consumer friendly Corporate Conglomerate- And I'm sure the fire danger is more on twice the voltage they may actually have a mind (and a percieved financial interest) to encourage, but don't blame others for your taxes, where you at least have some return and security for your investment, and who keep alive some of those not on the payroll of w hirlpool. If you felt the laundry in this machine after 30 minutes you logically might feel different, but YOU are the ones whose minds seem to be as closed as this dryer vent is open- and too often the way of the internet "expert" I think Pooh Pooh on, air trafic controllers... | ||
| Post# 745585 , Reply# 44 3/27/2014 at 16:45 (3,675 days old) by harpon (Jacksonville) | ||
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I'm not really going to keep beating on this until I've actually done some more testing- and in fact- that may never even really happen- I do have other things in my life than worrying over improving something that some else gets paid over.
But I'm back with one more comment- I believe I lost track of time drying the first load and realized it that night after posting on it- I was fixing dinner and watching Mr. Sell Fridge at the same time, the drying time was actually more like an hour and fifteen minutes, not one hour. Believe it or not, that's the way it was, and that's the guage I'll use when I compare any testing I might do. The more data between the better I think, so I'm IN no hurry. I really believe the drying time for the same volume of clothing could safely be cut to perhaps 45-50 minutes on 120 v power, whether I achieve it wilth this older design I wasn't paid for when I was ten years old, or not, and then that's very more competitive with other dryers drawing arc welder 240 volt power. Don't let those 240 lines arc! | ||
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