Thread Number: 54232
Whirlpool's new dishwasher motors |
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Post# 766270   6/27/2014 at 00:28 (3,585 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I was in Lowe's today, and for whatever reason a new Whirlpool dishwasher was upside down on a dolly. Not sure if it was a display or what, but the door was bent. I took the opportunity to scope out the underside since I've never seen the motor assembly in person, but I didn't get to sneak pictures.
I have to say, I knew that WP was putting much, much less powerful motors in their line along with their KitchenAid and Kenmore models, but I was shocked to realize that the main wash pump is literally a slightly larger induction motor, identical to the motors being used as the independent drain pumps in washers and dishwashers. It makes sense now why they can't use all arms at once, or have a chopper blade equipped; they simply don't have the power. This is also the same motor type that is used in fountain pumps, and the one that sometimes makes sort of a chatter when kicking on in your washer/dw during drains because the magnetic pulses kick the rotor back and forth rapidly until it has enough momentum to spin in one direction or the other. On one hand it's to be expected with the energy "issues" these days, but I would never think that a glorified drain pump would have the power needed to put out good volume and pressure from the spray arms in a dishwasher. This also makes me wonder that if you put your ear down next to the machine when it starts up, will you hear that telltale chatter that induction motors sometimes make? I'd also like to hear anyone's experience with these models, as this type of motor typically isn't supposed to run more than a little while at a time. |
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Post# 766272 , Reply# 1   6/27/2014 at 00:37 (3,585 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I also looked up the drain pump for my 2012 Whirlpool washer, and posted pictures below. They almost look identical, and according to the ratings on the labels they almost are. The times I've pulled the hose over into the tub to recirculate water when deep cleaning the machine, the volume and pressure coming out are okay, but they're just a trickle in comparison to the power of the AC motors found in the previous gen WPs and current Maytags.
Now I wish someone I know would install one just so I could run a GoPro inside it and see how they truly perform inside, and so I could hear what one sounds like of course. |
Post# 766292 , Reply# 2   6/27/2014 at 04:39 (3,584 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Those aren't even "statue pissing into pond" motors. Unless you can tolerate your statue pissing 10min out of every hour and absolutely no more. They are extremely inefficient, a figure of merit worse than the previous shaded-pole small pump motor.
Note the duty cycle on the label(s). Absolutely no more than 50%, and as low as 20%. That's because they get SO HOT in those short operating times they are in danger of smoking the coil insulation. The 'Maytag Man' had one out of the coinop Neptune downstairs, accidentally touched the motor part and it burned the tihs out of him. You could even SMELL how hot it was. Manufacturers love them. There are no bearings and no seals. There's not even a shaft. I can't imagine using that style motor as a dishwasher pump unless it was drain only. |
Post# 766296 , Reply# 3   6/27/2014 at 05:31 (3,584 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Post# 766302 , Reply# 4   6/27/2014 at 06:11 (3,584 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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I also noticed from the label that the motor is made in Italy.
I'm also curious about the 15 on/15 off label. It strikes me as a bit undersized for a recirculating pump. Perhaps it is a clue as to why the door was bent... Malcolm On a side note, Askoll builds pumps for almost every manufacturer out there... |
Post# 766337 , Reply# 6   6/27/2014 at 12:06 (3,584 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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If speed queen made dishwashers... I don't think we would be seeing this on their machines. Just when I when the pumps couldn't get tinier they have.
Im going to be honest, consumers are catching on. I hear more complaints in stores about how long the new machines take to finish. One lady put it well "I just want a dishwasher like my old one", when the sales guy said she would have to clean the filter at the bottom of the thing. |
Post# 766373 , Reply# 8   6/27/2014 at 15:27 (3,584 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I guess that would also explain why the manuals on the new WP/KM/KA dishwashers state that "Your new dishwasher will pause periodically to allow the detergent to soak". I guess if it didn't, these little pumps would burn out quickly.
Like someone said earlier, I never thought I'd see this type motor used for anything BUT draining, because there's simply no power behind them. They work well for that purpose, but they are slower at getting the job of emptying the machine than previous systems. I wish I had gotten pictures of the upside down dishwasher. The pictures you see on the internet are misleading, because the camera angles make it seem larger. In person it's almost pitiful. There's alot of empty space under these machines, that's for sure. |
Post# 766393 , Reply# 11   6/27/2014 at 19:35 (3,584 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 766400 , Reply# 12   6/27/2014 at 20:31 (3,584 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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Which is why I plan to take care of my Maytag MDB4709 so that it lasts as long as it possibly can. I also plan to find a WP PowerClean model to restore. I'd love a Hobart KitchenAid or a Maytag Reverse-Rack, but realistically it would be harder to maintain with the scarcity of parts now, much less 10-20 years from now. I'd use it as the daily driver since they're easy to work on, and if for some reason down the road I have difficulty finding parts, I'd have the Maytag. Granted, this is the plan unless the industry turns itself around and starts building quality machines again. With real motors.
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Post# 766404 , Reply# 13   6/27/2014 at 21:41 (3,584 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)   |   | |
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Hmm and these new things take 3 hours to get the job done. I guess that might be what a trickle of water is capable of. It's a shame, and how long are these motors going to last?
Shameful. |
Post# 766412 , Reply# 14   6/27/2014 at 22:26 (3,584 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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In all fairness, though, size ain't everything.
Dishwashers have developed a little bit since they were first introduced. The big ol' tub with the impeller at the bottom is gone. Today's dishwashers have narrow water paths, spray jets that aim at the dishes and not the tub, tubs and sumps designed to allow water to flow into the pump quickly and quietly. Computers simulate the water flow and engineers can virtually redesign components that cause unwanted turbulence in the water. It's a similar thing with vacuum cleaners: in Europe, we're used to vacuums with 2.000 and more watts motors, when most US vacuums have much less than that. Still, I don't think all of your carpets are dirty (powerheads aside). When Bosch released its new platform, the wattage of the pump was reduced but the overall water circulation increased by 130 gallons because several parts were redesigned. I'm wondering if these long cycles are an American (or even a Whirlpool) phenomenon. European dishwashers have more powerful heaters, maybe that's what helps them to be faster. On the other hand, they usually run off a cold-water connection. Whirlpool's fastest wash cycle is the One Hour Wash that excludes a drying portion. My Bosch does a load in 55 minutes with drying. V-Zug takes 45 minutes for two washes, two rinses and drying. Now, those are of course not the Eco cycles but they still use less than the One Hour Wash. It really seems Whirlpool started making some slow dishwashers. I don't think Maytags or GEs are that slow. Today, I ran across one of these Miele Professional dishwashers that look just like a domestic machine. These circulate 50 gpm. It was a showroom model but still sold for over 2.000 Euros. The new undercounter models even go up to 105 gpm. How much did tje old Hobarts blast through their wash arms? |
Post# 766421 , Reply# 17   6/27/2014 at 23:30 (3,584 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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It's not really the size that is the issue, but rather the type of motor they decided to use. These induction motors have very low power output in relation to the amount of energy they run on. The full-sized AC motor in the new Maytag is rated at 2.7 amps, but it has a very nice brute force output, running at almost 1/3 HP, so in the sense of power vs. energy consumed, it's very efficient, and can run for a long time without needing to cool. The PowerClean outputs 1/3 HP at 5.3 amps, if that gives any idea of the improvement. The motor used in the new WP is only a slightly more involved version of aquarium/pond pumps, which are a simple impeller attached to a cylindrical magnet, inserted into a water tight hub. They work well for continuous use in aquariums and ponds because they're submerged and water cooled as the water can move between the magnet cylinder and hub. In this machine however, they're not under water, and even if they were hot water in a dishwasher can't cool them.
They work tremendously as drain pumps on appliances because they only have to run for maybe five minutes at most. There is no need for force or high pressure because it only needs to move the water from point A to point B. Maybe it's an attack of nostalgia for me, because I always loved Whirlpool PowerClean and Point Voyager dishwashers that upon looking "under the hood", there's a nice hefty motor there to greet you, and yet while they were powerful and could chew up any food you could throw in, they were also quiet and efficient. It's depressing that what made me fall in love with Whirlpool has now been reduced to a lawn sprinkler in a box. |
Post# 766517 , Reply# 20   6/28/2014 at 15:04 (3,583 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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My Kitchenaid is a year old and doesn't have a pump like that. It still uses a squatty vertical shaft pump with a four blade chopper. The motor doesn't run continuously, but it only stops for a few seconds when it is sensing. All three arms run at the same time.. Only time the upper arms don't run is when the pro scrub is active. Normal cycle with normal soil choosing sani rinse is about 90 minutes. |
Post# 766554 , Reply# 21   6/28/2014 at 18:32 (3,583 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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Repair Clinic for the dishwasher I just got because I was curious to see what the motor looked like and there is no motor listed under parts. Interestingly enough the control panel is out of stock which isn't a good sign, maybe??. I think I'm going to put a camera in mine to see what it looks like running. Mine has the chopper too and I think all arms run at once. So all the new WP dishwashers including Maytag & KA use the same motors?
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Post# 766619 , Reply# 22   6/29/2014 at 03:21 (3,583 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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mark_wpduet, your dishwasher still uses the same 2.7 amp motor that the Whirlpool Point Voyager used, although I'm pretty sure they've improved it a bit. Even the new Maytag that was just released uses almost the same motor, or else they would not have been able to use the chopper blade or run all wash arms at once, nor would they be able to tout the feature of "having the most powerful motor in the industry". Try appliancepartspros.com; the site is a little easier to navigate and I haven't found anything yet that wasn't available besides photos of the parts listed.
iheartmaytag - I would check the manufacture date on your KitchenAid's model and serial. Vertical shaft pumps have not been used in any Whirlpool built machines since the transition from the PowerClean module to the Point Voyager tall tub configuration, and that was around 2009-10. There was no Pro-Scrub/Power Scour/Turbo Zone (KitchenAid, Whirlpool, Kenmore respectively) rear-tub mounted sprayer introduced until the tall tub was around for a couple of years. If yours is a tall tub that still has a disposal blade, you probably caught the last of the Point Voyager version as they were being phased out, but it is still a horizontal shaft, although the motor is much larger than the one being used in the new WP/KA resource saver models. |
Post# 766653 , Reply# 23   6/29/2014 at 08:36 (3,582 days old) by washerdude (Canada )   |   | |
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I noted that in my new kenmore dishwasher's manual it said: NOTE: It is normal for the dishwasher to pause sevral times during a cycle. |
Post# 766769 , Reply# 24   6/29/2014 at 18:10 (3,582 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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I bought the KA Feb 2013, was supposed to have been a 2012 model.
Four arm lower wash arm, Pro-scrub zone in the back, tall tub, "Food disposer based wash system has four stainless steel blades to grind food particles which are flushed down the drain at the end of they cycle. " It had current specs through the first of this year. Now that model is showing the filtered wash system.
I do know it was a vertical shaft motor, I was the one that wired, plumbed and installed it.
I will pull the ID when it finishes the dinner dishes. This post was last edited 06/29/2014 at 20:55 |
Post# 766780 , Reply# 25   6/29/2014 at 18:43 (3,582 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 767040 , Reply# 27   6/30/2014 at 18:02 (3,581 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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All in the name of energy efficiency. I still don't get why Euro type designs such as (Boschs?) that will fill a reservoir attached to the outer tub with water during the end of the main wash to transfer heat over. The reservoir is dumped in the tank for the rinse. That way energy is saved without having to resort to other more drastic 'improvements' like 80 watt motors.
Energy efficiency isn't even the whole reason. Getting the appliances to use less water and electricity at any point (I stress point) in time is an ultimate goal. Why so? That means less needs to be spent in infrastructure improvements. Appliances that draw a cup of water and pull what a night light does means that 100 year old water main can go another 20 years. Fewer sewage plants need to be built. Less power plants. Its not so much manufacturers that are doing this but government regulations supported by our own tax dollars. IMO I don't think Whirlpool and competitors wanted this. If they could they would continue to sell what consumers look for. What consumers are used to. I know lots of AW.org folks will say consumers don't think about appliances caring nothing if the product does its job or not, and while I do agree, not entirely. Every time I go shopping I hear people complaining. Common one for DW is filters. Its no secret older machines were disposals, and people want that feature. Time bothers others. Locking lids, washers that don't fill with the lid open, long cycles, impeller washer that don't clean or tear clothes, moldy front loads (though Im hearing far less of that)... More of anything its being forced on consumers. Saving energy now trendy, but its not looking to good with todays cheap plastic that cant even get the basics right. |
Post# 767097 , Reply# 28   6/30/2014 at 20:18 (3,581 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I don't think you could have said it better chetlaham. I've preached time and again: Why is money being funneled into trying to make appliances use less and less, when instead that money could be invested on finding and engineering better, more efficient ways to produce energy and refine our water. Building a machine that is more efficient is ultimately a good thing, but it's being pushed to all the wrong limits. Just like you said though, they'd rather just say "use less" rather than update our ancient power grids and water treatment methods. I think, and hope, that it will reach a breaking point. With electricity, I'd gladly take a motor that can output the same power and volume as an older one, but only use a penny's worth of energy, but as far as water, there's only so little you can use before the job isn't being done at all. And what are they going to do? Tell physics to change so that a drop works the same as a gallon? Tell humans and plants that they have to evolve to need less water? I don't think so, although I wouldn't be surprised if they tried.
At the bottom of it all I don't blame the manufacturers. They receive funding only on machines that meet those strict regulations. Anything that doesn't is out of the company's pocket, which may be why the "BOL" Whirlpool agitator model is $500, when that used to be average price for a higher end machine. I am glad that they still offer that model though, because it at least still gives the consumer a choice if they want a washer that still works like a washer. If Whirlpool were to drive sales and features to the new trendy HE dishwashers, but have one model that was a standard tub PowerClean, with basic cycles/features like Heavy-Normal-Light and Hi Temp wash, I would absolutely pay more for it. As with anything in the consumer industry, the consumer themselves should have a choice in what they're spending their money on. |
Post# 767170 , Reply# 29   7/1/2014 at 05:17 (3,580 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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False economy, stretching fractured infrastructure. Like that Minnesota bridge. New York City's water mains leak enough to fully supply most cities. Hardly worth several generations of ineffective appliances to keep a few dozen antiquated coal plants listed as 'adequate'.
And worst, why spend perfectly good money trimming ALL the trees when you can just wait until a storm knocks them into powerlines and it becomes obvious which ones needed trimming? Speculation? Not. Austin TX has a very aggressive tree cutback policy and they also have one of the highest electric reliability rates in the country. I lived there 18 years and power never went out more than minutes. Even when a substation transformer exploded, they had the lights back on in a half hour. My first MONTH in DFW power was out more in perfectly clear calm weather than the entire time I lived in Austin. Oh, and the rates were below the nat'l average as well. It CAN be done right. |
Post# 767205 , Reply# 30   7/1/2014 at 09:40 (3,580 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Trees need to be trimmed, if they weren't we would be losing power literally every day. Trees continue to grow until they touch something like an energized wire. You then get smoke fire and sparks with outages to boot. If is on super large high tension towers you get massive black outs. Tree trimming before hand needs to be done.
However, I agree, for the rates we pay we ought to have an ultra updated infrastructure. I have lived in towns that have municipal water, power, sewer and even garbage pick up. All of it is light years ahead of investor owned infrastructure. I never lost power, water never left red iron streaks in the sink. Sewer rates were actually lower as hard as that is to believe. Compare that to the behemoth companies that serve several states power outages are a norm for every thunderstorm. Any way, about them 80 watt motors. By taking a machine that took 30 minutes to wash your clothes 2 hours or a DW that took 1 hours to do them now in "trendy green" 6 hours you spread that power consumption over time. Less energy over a longer period of time multiplied millions of appliances means you get more out of antique infrastructure. Appliance makers are even working on smart chip appliances, that, when a signal is given will automatically drop power/water usage. That equates to come summer heat wave grid operators can automatically control your own appliances because it was cheaper for you to buy something micro chipped then building a much needed power plant. The real reason the energy star movement exits written above. Consumers are eating a bill for an infrastructure upgrade while they think its "just being green". It might be green if these machines lasted more than 5 years but they don't. Town dumps are now filling with machines that 5 years ago were the "future of ----- (insert your home appliance here)". Yes, I see that future. Overpriced plastic lasting 3-5 years singing cute jingles while your dishes/clothes come out looking like they did when you put them in. |
Post# 767371 , Reply# 31   7/2/2014 at 04:37 (3,580 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Post# 770567 , Reply# 33   7/13/2014 at 14:57 (3,568 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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105 min (1 hour 45 min) or 2h 15 min? Thats a difference for sure... And heated dry is excluded quite a while now. Anyway, I always wonder why it is so important. EU DW have no heated dry since what-do-I-know... |
Post# 770596 , Reply# 35   7/13/2014 at 17:20 (3,568 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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Actually, final rinses are done at 65° usually. And giving the fact that a) there is not more than 4l of water to heat and b) heated drying takes the good part of half an hour, we end up with a somewhat tied situation: Better overall drying performance versus less energy usage and less chance of damage to dishes... |
Post# 795176 , Reply# 37   11/20/2014 at 21:54 (3,438 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)   |   | |
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I have a new Frigidaire mid range model with the digital display. Mine does alternate between upper and lower blades and it does pause too. I was wondering why it did that. Very interesting. I have to say though, that it cleans exceptionally well. The longest cycle is just about 2 hours which doesn't seem overly long to me. Even on the "Top Rack" setting, it's just over an hour and cleans great.
The GE machines still advertise the "Piranha" food disposer. Maybe it's better to get a cheap Hotpoint model. LOL. I almost did actually. I was going to ad some sound insulation to make it a little quieter. They are simple decent machines and still use a timer and manual buttons! |
Post# 795567 , Reply# 39   11/23/2014 at 04:49 (3,435 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Repair clinic still has motors for my Maytag DWC7602AAB dishwasher...I too have been looking for an older KA like mom's KUDI23 or even before, but am concerned about finding parts although currently they also have the motor for her's too. I just may order a new motor for mine and keep it running. I almost got sucked into the stainless tub craze a few months ago until I ran across this website and have been reading people's realtime reviews on the new dishwashers. Suddenly my noisy unit isn't so noisy...after all, it does actually BLOW the soil right off the dishes in a short time. I actually emailed KA and MT to ask about the power ratings of their new motors...both wrote me back to tell me they no longer have HP ratings. I just translated that to mean they are ashamed to tell us how weak they actually are.
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Post# 796650 , Reply# 42   11/30/2014 at 12:43 (3,428 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 796653 , Reply# 43   11/30/2014 at 12:57 (3,428 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I think there are varying degrees of noise level that don't relate to any dB rating. In my opinion, the Whirlpool Power Clean and Voyager platform dishwashers with at least a Quiet Partner II package are beautifully quiet. Can you hear that it is running? Yes, but what you hear is a low, barely noticeable hum, and the muffled sloshing of water inside. One you're about 6 feet away, you can't even tell they're on unless it's the ONLY thing running in the house at the moment.
Now, take the BOL Whirlpool Durawash machines, with the spray tower, and better yet, the GE dishwashers with the tower, THOSE are unacceptably loud. It isn't the motor that is the problem, it's the overly rhythmic racket of the spray from the tower revolving around the tub, plus the lack of any good insulation at all. On top of that, the detergent cups are loud enough to startle you if you don't expect the sound or know what it is. I feel there is a fine line between noise that is soothing versus noise that is disturbing when it comes to machines like washers and dishwashers. I myself don't desire any machine to be dead quiet because I do want to know that it is functioning properly, but I agree that I don't want a machine that disturbs the peace when you're trying to watch a movie or have a conversation in the kitchen. When the manufacturer pays attention to the details and there is proper sound insulation, a dishwasher with a larger motor and a self clean disposal system can be nearly silent. I have noticed that while the new WP models with the filter are extremely quiet, the kick panel on the bottom has no padding at all, whereas the new Maytags that still use the same 2.7 amp motor they used in the Voyager design have a piece of thick insulation adhered to the kickplate, and both machines sound nearly alike. |
Post# 796679 , Reply# 44   11/30/2014 at 14:55 (3,428 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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There are several sources of ambient noise in my house so the dishwasher is of no concern. I run a 12" Windmaker fan on low in my kitchen/dining room/living room 24/7, aimed toward the office room ... where two desktop computers run 24/7, one with the side cover off and a small fan on the floor blowing toward it to keep the four hard drives (three internal, one external) from overheating. It's eerily-quiet if all of that is turned off. |
Post# 809508 , Reply# 47   2/15/2015 at 21:35 (3,351 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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These new Whirlpool dishwashers will never ever, ever, ever pass a cheese enchilada pan test unless you use Cascade complete citrus breeze dishwasher detergent in conjunction with Cascade crystal clear rinse aid! Shame on Whirlpool! Who do they think they are? |
Post# 809707 , Reply# 48   2/16/2015 at 20:55 (3,350 days old) by aladude ()   |   | |
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Yeah, yeah, shame on whirlpool, a pox on GE, bring back the filter flo, we got it, man. |
Post# 809784 , Reply# 52   2/17/2015 at 09:19 (3,349 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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I tried connecting my Bosch to the hot line (140F from the first drop if I purged) but didn't see any benefit, unfortunately. It fills with steaming water, starts to circulate... and the water is cold. Since the machine heats during the prewash anyway, the main wash starts with slightly warm water and the lukewarm phase lasts five minutes at most, as the heater takes cold water to 120F in ten minutes. The rinses use preheated water.
@ washer112 - how long does your DD take to heat one fill? I suppose it heats very quickly. |
Post# 1057943 , Reply# 55   1/17/2020 at 17:14 (1,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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This thread is pretty old but I suppose it being my own, it gives me a chance to reflect on how my opinions have evolved in 6 years, and I gotta say, I used to be pretty ignorant. I hadn’t yet given this platform of dishwashers a chance yet and completely dismissed it. I’ve now owned three; two premium models and one MOL model, and they’ve all been fantastic performers. The pumps in those pictures in the original post are also not accurate at all because the repair parts site I linked them from had the wrong image thumbnails for the motor part numbers. All three GlobalWash machines have much beefier unidirectional wash pumps.
And yes, I’d say that if Whirlpool’s new platform on the Maytag/KitchenAid dishwashers can handle a pizza, cake, and three pb&j’s, I’d bet it’ll do a perfect job with a heavily soiled cheese enchilada pan. |
Post# 1064627 , Reply# 56   3/25/2020 at 22:05 (1,486 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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I too have given the powerwave equivalent a chance. Not as bad as I thought it was. I wonder how the global wash system pumps got beefier. What direction does the pump spin at? How many RPM's? I'm still amazed how such a small pump can pack a punch. Model 665.13222. |
Post# 1064628 , Reply# 57   3/25/2020 at 22:08 (1,486 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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Andrew, you made a convert! I wish I would've given it a chance when my previous whirlpool point/voyager before the Frigidaire left powdery residue stuck in the glasses! I guess the alternating wash action does work in that area! |