Thread Number: 54972  /  Tag: Modern Dryers
Whirlpool Corporation Introduces New Hybrid Heat Pump Dryer Technology, HybridCare™
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Post# 773578   7/28/2014 at 12:29 (3,531 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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I wonder how quickly a 220V heat pump dryer would dry a typical load. I imagine it will use a drain hose and pump instead of a condensate collection bucket.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO joe_in_philly's LINK





Post# 773650 , Reply# 1   7/28/2014 at 19:48 (3,530 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

The press release if full of awkward wording
"Compared to typical dryers that use large amounts of energy in the form of venting hot, moist air, the Whirlpool brand HybridCare™ dryer is a ventless heat pump dryer that uses a refrigeration system to dry and recycle the same air. "

The first clause doesn't even make any sense and the second implies that somewhere in the world there are vented heat pump dryers that do not use a refrigeration system to dry and recycle the same air, or...

or this: "...to deliver drying performance..." What kind of performance? Piss poor?

"As a ventless technology, HybridCare™ does not require an outside vent," This means that somewhere in the world there is ventless technology that DOES require an outside vent.

In one sentence he states that the fact that the dryer is ventless, not that it uses a heat pump, is what saves energy.

Seriously, this brings out the English teacher in me and this writer gets an F. I get the impression that the writer doesn't understand understand how this dryer works, or how ANY dryers work. OY!

That said, this poor excuse for a press release has no connection with how well this dryer will work or how much energy it'll save in real life. I wonder if it'll live up to its hype.

Jim


Post# 773655 , Reply# 2   7/28/2014 at 20:25 (3,530 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

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This is what we've been waiting for!

 

It'll be interesting to take a look a these machines when they appear.

This really is the first significant technological advancement in dryer technology since the introduction of automatic dryness controls in the late 50s.

I'm sure that they will get clothes dry, the question in my mind will be how they deal with press care.

They will also inevitably produce some heat that ends up in the space where it's located.


Post# 773656 , Reply# 3   7/28/2014 at 20:45 (3,530 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Miele heat pump

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Miele launched the heatpump dryer in Australia in 2009. Since then it is the number one selling heatpump dryer on the market. There are now many competitors offering a heatpump in their line up. Drying times are comparable to a standard condenser dryer.

Here is the video link to how the Miele heatpump works


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


Post# 773657 , Reply# 4   7/28/2014 at 20:55 (3,530 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Whirlpool probably based on LG format

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Here is the video of the LG EcoHybrid.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


Post# 773659 , Reply# 5   7/28/2014 at 21:07 (3,530 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
But...

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Will people pay 2000 for a dryer?

Wondering what it will actually cost in the real world.

Malcolm


Post# 773660 , Reply# 6   7/28/2014 at 21:08 (3,530 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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The press release if full of awkward wording
"Compared to typical dryers that use large amounts of energy in the form of venting hot, moist air, the Whirlpool brand HybridCare™ dryer is a ventless heat pump dryer that uses a refrigeration system to dry and recycle the same air. "

The first clause doesn't even make any sense and the second implies that somewhere in the world there are vented heat pump dryers that do not use a refrigeration system to dry and recycle the same air, or...

... snip ...

That said, this poor excuse for a press release has no connection with how well this dryer will work or how much energy it'll save in real life. I wonder if it'll live up to its hype.
I took the description to be in comparison to a standard electric-resistance or gas, vented dryer which is to what what the overwhelming majority of U.S. consumers are familiar.


Post# 773663 , Reply# 7   7/28/2014 at 21:18 (3,530 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Drying times are comparable to a standard condenser dryer.

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There is the rub. Condenser dryers take longer than vented along with several other factors that drive American consumers up the wall. My condenser dryer (Oko-Lavatherm) is useless this time of year (hot and humid weather), and thus really only sees use from about late November to March or perhaps April.

In my experience those whom are able to have a vented dryer will do so even if it means using one of those Whirlpool built portable/compact dryers.

DOE attempted to rate condenser dryers several years ago for the American market in terms of energy efficiency. They gave up basically saying the things really wouldn't work for a large part of the American market.

www.energystar.gov/ia/products/do...

fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build98/PD...

Maybe these new heat pump dryers will prove different. But am here to tell you know plenty of persons living in some of the most expensive real estate in Manhattan that have been landed with condenser dryers, and hate them with a passion. *LOL*


Post# 773706 , Reply# 8   7/29/2014 at 03:59 (3,530 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

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These videos pretty much confirmed my thoughts about how this all works. 

 

With the Miele dryer I'd be curious to know what kind of temperatures are achieved in the drum toward the end of the cycle. Also, I am curious as to the actual thermal capacity of the heat pump. Is it 1/2 ton, 1 ton, 2 tons, 3 tons! ?

 

Given that these dryers will mostly be replacing existing electric dryers where there will already be a 30 amp, 240 volt outlet available, the refrigeration system could be quite large.


Post# 773713 , Reply# 9   7/29/2014 at 05:21 (3,530 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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Clear me up here. You've got a conventional lint screen which a great deal of lint manages to bypass. Then you've got a cold wet plate or worse, fins where the bypass lint gets stuck and hardens to a crust while the dryer is off. Who, and how exactly, comes along behind this process and removes the crust?

In the water-condenser, it goes down the drain right? But the heatpump has no drain, also right? Wait a tick. The water that was in the clothes has to go SOMEwhere. The hot side of the heat pump can evaporate it, but where does it go THEN? If into the room air, one has to pay one's airconditioner to remove it. Unless one lives in the desert southwest.

This is why nobody likes engineers. They either sell you stuff that does things 'under the table' because marketing told them to. Or they ask gnarly questions that make you fall out of 'marketing love' with what you thought was a good idea.



Post# 773728 , Reply# 10   7/29/2014 at 06:25 (3,530 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Cannot Vouch For These Heat Pump Versions

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Normal condenser dryers have a container where the "condensed" water collects. That or you can set the thing up to drain into a sink or whatever via a tube.

The "heat pump" bit is added to address the main short coming of condenser dryers; that is they are only "half" of an air conditioning unit so to speak in that they rely upon ambient room temperature air to work.


Post# 773729 , Reply# 11   7/29/2014 at 06:25 (3,530 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Air Flow

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I would imagine that the volume of air flowing through the drum is greatly reduced, since there is no need to pump it outside. Which might thereby leave the lint right where it came in, on your clothes.

Being a heat pump dryer, it wont be affected by ambient humidity levels like a water cooled condenser.

I am also interested in operating temperature, and noise levels as well.

Malcolm


Post# 773733 , Reply# 12   7/29/2014 at 06:35 (3,530 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

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The Miele dryer specs say that condensate water is "discharged to waste".

The Miele also appears to have about three levels of filtration that air passes over between the drum and the condenser/evaporator coils.

 

In reading the specs on the UK model of the Panasonic Heat Pump dryer, it has a water container where the condensate is held. They say to empty after each load. There is also a safety circuit that shuts the dryer down when the container is full. It also has an optional drain hose that can be installed.

 

The Panasonic uses two levels of air filtration: 1. fluff filter and 2. fine filter. The fluff filter appears to looks like the lint filter on every other dryer and they recommend cleaning it after each load. The fine filter looks like a piece of dense foam that is about 3" thick. They recommend cleaning this filter monthly.

 

The power consumption on all of these dryers SEEMS to be about 1000 watts at full load. That would lead me to believe that the size of the condensing unit is about 3/4 of a ton (8,000-10,000 BTUs).


Post# 773736 , Reply# 13   7/29/2014 at 06:37 (3,530 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Here is the article from USA Today Whirlpool sites in it's PR release above: www.usatoday.com/story/money/busi...

First thing to notice is that gas dryers only cost on average $40 per year to operate against the $100 for electric heated versions.

Next even the DOE admits heat pump dryers are expensive especially when compared against standard dryers now sold. They also admit condenser dryers take longer to get the job done.

So here we go again, not satisfied with creating standards that now give us washing machines that use wet wipe technology, dryers are next in their cross hairs.

Between washing machines that take hours to do one load and soon dryers that take equally as long soon we shall return to the laundry days of our great grandmothers; then the family wash took three days to complete.


Post# 773738 , Reply# 14   7/29/2014 at 07:02 (3,530 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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A couple of explanations:

- all heat pump dryers have several filters. How well they work depends on the manufacturer. Our consumer magazine almost exclusively tests HP dryers as regular condenser dryerd are becoming less and less relevant and new vented dryers... forget it. Most manufacturers have like one or two on their website left, while you can chose from ten to thirty HP models. Anyway, the consumer magazine ran many loads of new towels through them and found that the worst dryers had to be cleaned every five cycles, while the best ones went through 20 cycles without a trace of lint on the condenser. When Miele first came out with HP dryers, they had like six filters in them: the main one had to be cleaned after each load and the other ones vacuumed off once a month or so. That was years ago. Current dryers have mostly two to three filters. One needs cleaning after each use and the others pop out for cleaning on a monthly or so basis. Bosch and LG make dryers that wash the condenser off with a stream of water.

- Hybrid Heating. LG has a heat pump and a traditional heating element that are activated as needed (speed mode vs. eco mode). Electrolux, Bosch, Panasonic and others use inverter motors that can adjust the power output of the HP for fast or economic drying.

- the usual operating temp is around 130F. Panasonic states that their inverter heat pump adjusts the temp from 113 to 156F for the gentle/eco or fast mode.

- condensate is either collected in a drawer or drained off (most likely into the drain that is already present for the washer).

- noise levels are typically in the lower 50dB range.


Post# 773746 , Reply# 15   7/29/2014 at 08:30 (3,530 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
@logixx

I can agree mostly, except:
-Miele had 3 types of filters: The usual fine mesh ones one knows from the usual condensor modells in the door itself and the door boot. Than each of these had a simmilar filter right behind it self made of a foam type material. And than, there has been a one layerd fine filter made of a different, more dense foam material right in front of the condensor. Now, they fused the 2 foam rubbber stuff filters in one 2 layered filter in front of the condensor which needs cleaning every 1-6 months.
- Noise level is usually in the mid 60 range as far as the labels state.
-The drying temperature varrys from modell to modell. I general, there are 2 types: One with a low temp option, one without. The ones with dry at 140-150°, and on speed modes, 160° are reachable. Such systems are used on WP, Bosch, Panasonic and the new T1 series by Miele. The ones without usually dry at 120-130° and usually don't go above 140°. Such are the E-Lux system, the old and updated Miele style and some cheaper models.


Post# 773762 , Reply# 16   7/29/2014 at 10:37 (3,530 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Henrik

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Woops - yes, meant in the lower 60dB range. I just checked and the American vented Samsung DV431 (sold as a "commercial" machine over here) is rated at 65dB as well.

Where did you get the info on the temp getting so high? I don't think HP dryers get that hot - how would you otherwise explain that the cycles get longer and longer?

Alex


Post# 773763 , Reply# 17   7/29/2014 at 10:47 (3,530 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        

I know many here do not like dryer sheets.  I do use them and have for years.  My question please, will this machine get hot enough to get the product out of the dryer sheets?  I wonder if we will be seeing "Bounce" HE on store shelves?

ALR


Post# 773772 , Reply# 18   7/29/2014 at 11:20 (3,530 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
well for me 2000$ is way to much

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Well for me 2000$ is way to much no way i would pay such a price for a dryer that will waste alot more energy than a conventinal 220 volt electric dryer

Post# 773777 , Reply# 19   7/29/2014 at 12:00 (3,530 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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I am going to assume that this dryer will have both a cold water hookup, similar to other whirlpool dryers that have a steam setting, and also a drain hose, since I don't see a condensate container. Wouldn't it be able to use the condensate or tap water to remove excess heat w/o impacting room air temperature? If this is Whirlpool's attempt at introducing a full sized heatpump dryer to the US, I think they would do what is necessary to make it appealing to US customers, even if it reduces efficiency a bit.



Post# 773783 , Reply# 20   7/29/2014 at 12:18 (3,530 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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"waste alot more energy than a conventinal 220 volt electric dryer"

Huh? How do you figure this non-fact??

Both pricing and energy consumption are unknown at this time, but it's pretty darned sure safe to assume it will use less electricity. Otherwise why would it be built??



Post# 773790 , Reply# 21   7/29/2014 at 13:12 (3,529 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Right!

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I suspect the only things wasteful about this machine will be the user's time and initial expense.

So, whom is willing to take one for the team and be a first adopter?

Malcolm


Post# 773792 , Reply# 22   7/29/2014 at 14:01 (3,529 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
There is one born every minute...

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"Whether a dryer is gas or electric, standard size or compact, manufacturers can shoot for the Star, but most dryers will not meet the requirements, says Abigail Daken of Energy Star, and models earning Energy Star status will probably cost over $700. You can expect to save about $18 a year in energy costs with an Energy Star electric dryer—around $217 if you keep the dryer 12 years—or $9 annually with a gas model, compared to a dryer that meets the DOE’s 2015 minimum efficiency standard."

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 773794 , Reply# 23   7/29/2014 at 14:07 (3,529 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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So just for the warm fuzzy feeling of saying on is "saving the planet" and purchasing a "Energy Star" dryer of the bat you are paying $700 more. But wait the savings are only <$20 per year and <$10 for gas for a grand total of $217 after twelve years. This means already there is a net loss of $429. It would take almost thirty years to recoup any energy savings to mitigate the increased cost over a conventional dryer.

This is all built upon the ES dryer performing the same as a conventional version, that is drying loads in the same or less time. Oh and the thing has to remain in service for the duration as well.


Post# 773795 , Reply# 24   7/29/2014 at 14:16 (3,529 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
A/C Space

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I suspect if you are operating a clothes dryer in an air conditioned space, you need to account for the thermal impact on your HVAC system. Wonder if it is less of an impact with a long running ES dryer as compared to a standard gas or electric vented unit.

Malcolm


Post# 773799 , Reply# 25   7/29/2014 at 14:29 (3,529 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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Remember its a heat pump, its not about creating heat, its just moving it about. Sure there will be heat created from the electricity consumed but that is a small amount of the heat moved in the closed loop system. Heat will be moved to warm the load and evaporate the moisture in the garments, that moisture will move to the evaporator and give up its latent heat back into the refrigeration system when it condenses. Its not like a dryer that just dumps heat like we use today.

This may some day be the next big thing in more efficient clothes drying (or it may not). It might be wise to keep an open mind to see how the technology proves itself. I'm sure when the early washers came to be a lot of people still preferred to still beat their clothing on a rock though...


Post# 773802 , Reply# 26   7/29/2014 at 14:36 (3,529 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

If this is using the term Hybrid I assume then that it is using both an electric coil and a heat pump, so the savings would come about when using the HP part of the machine.  So you could chose the energy savings cycle and wait 3 hours for a load to dry or you could select the fast dry option which may use both, and include electric resistance heating as well.

 

I wonder what the life span of this compressor is..the same as a central unit..a window unit or better?

 

In the picture in the link that joe posted see that door at the bottom right, thats where you empty the moisture container.  

 

If I was using electric to dry my clothes I might take a deep look, but as someone who uses natural gas to heat water for 6 or 7 loads of clothes, then dry the loads, then take 2 showers, and cook 3 meals ...all in one day....and not even use $1 to do it, I don't think It makes any sense for me. I would like to hear of others experiences


Post# 773807 , Reply# 27   7/29/2014 at 14:44 (3,529 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Hybrid

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IIRC may come as the offering from Whirlpool will have both vented and vent-less capability. Much like a hybrid car can run on both electric and petrol.

By doing this WP seems a Moi to be admitting that condenser dryers have limits (with or without heat pump technology) that the American consumer may not welcome. So rather than leave them landed with a pure condenser dryer an option for venting will be supplied to cope with said objections.


Post# 773833 , Reply# 28   7/29/2014 at 17:09 (3,529 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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C'mon, Malcolm! I was hoping you'd offer to take one for the team and let us know what you think.  Wow, though, shelling out $2,000 with little hope of a return in savings...that's asking a lot.

 

I believe fabric wear 'n' tear comes in to play here, as well.  Tumbling is a fairly gentle way of handling fabrics, but have you noticed how many front-load washers dropped from ratings of 'Excellent' to 'Very Good' or even 'Good' for gentleness to fabrics as cycle times increased?  Another 2-1/2 to 3 hours of tumbling in the dryer will take its toll.  I wouldn't be so concerned about things like sheets and bath towels, but there's no way I'd want dress shirts and pants tumbling that long.  The fabric at collar points, edges of cuffs and waistbands will wear through in no time.

 

Wonder how long it will be before they pump the condensate water to the partnered washer to be used as the first minute of cold water fill which is the protocol on many new washers?

 

Our UK/European members have commented on the super-long drying times with their machines which are smaller than US makes.  How long will it take to dry a 22-lb. load coming from a Whirlpool front-loader or one of their behemoth impeller-based top-loaders?


Post# 773841 , Reply# 29   7/29/2014 at 17:33 (3,529 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

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The dry times for the European dryers do seem to be crazy long. One time chart suggested that an 8kg (roughly 18 lbs.) load of heavy whites would take 2:20 to dry if spun out at 1600 rpm and 2:50 if spun out at 1000 rpm.

 

I think that energy is too cheap here in the US (especially natural gas) for a $2000 dryer to catch on given the negligible energy sayings in the medium-term. That, and homes built since the 1950s had dryer venting installed and older homes have been retrofitted. The venting issue is largely a non-issue with the exception of older high density type of dwellings. 


Post# 773854 , Reply# 30   7/29/2014 at 18:41 (3,529 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Predict The Only Places You'll See These Heat Pump Dryer

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In the United States is pretty much where you find condenser versions already, buildings where persons cannot or will not install ductwork for venting and or cannot locate the dryer near a window.

Next will be the same problem Miele and other European makers of appliances that run on 208v-240v found out; unless a household already has such service installed it the added cost of doing so can spell an end to the deal.

This means these Whirlpool dryers will be direct replacements for other electric dryers and or if the household already has the proper power already wired. And please don't start about how "easy" and or inexpensive it is to add 208v-240v service where it does not exist because that simply is not true. Again just ask Miele USA.

Here in NYC unless one already has 208v-240v service at the panel meaning it already comes into the apartment/home it can cost several thousand to have the work done depending upon how extensive the required work. If it means running a larger cable from Con Edison's main to the building for instance you are talking big money just to open up the street and sidewalk (much less close them up again)just to bring the new power to the building. Then there is the work on panel and perhaps outlets.


Post# 773856 , Reply# 31   7/29/2014 at 18:49 (3,529 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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Jerrod:

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the door on the bottom right was to access filters or coils that would need to be routinely cleaned. Shall we wager? :-)


Post# 773862 , Reply# 32   7/29/2014 at 19:35 (3,529 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        
I find this thread...

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... Very interesting! :)

Post# 773863 , Reply# 33   7/29/2014 at 19:41 (3,529 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
One For The Team...

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When you can get one with Speed Queen badging, we may entertain it further. But probably not under the Whirlpool name.

Malcolm


Post# 773888 , Reply# 34   7/29/2014 at 21:30 (3,529 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Malcolm--  Seeing as SQ has yet to adopt electronic moisture sensing (opting to stick with traditional thermostat methods) it may be awhile before they take the plunge into heat pumps, LOL!  Poor recall on my part:  Did you wind up keeping your Miele or SQ pair, and is it your daily driver?

Your SQ set was that sharp-looking stainless steel model, too, wasn't it?

 

Jamie-- Can you provide any more insight into Whirlpool's heat pump dryers?




This post was last edited 07/30/2014 at 00:27
Post# 774034 , Reply# 35   7/30/2014 at 07:12 (3,529 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

@Alex what takes this incredibly long is getting to that temp. I red a Amazon question where Bauknecht answered about reversing. It said that the first reversing cycle started after reaching the target temp of 65°C.
Actually, it is not that bad about times. 2h can be common, but not always. And keep in mind it could have a twice as strong heat pump.


Post# 774042 , Reply# 36   7/30/2014 at 07:33 (3,529 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
SQ or Miele

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After a year of use, I sent the Miele's on to another home and moved the SQ's back in to production. Glad I didn't sell the SQ's after all. Life is so much easier with them than the Miele's.

Malcolm


Post# 774109 , Reply# 37   7/30/2014 at 11:18 (3,529 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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I will be happy to shed some light on this dryer when I can!

Post# 774125 , Reply# 38   7/30/2014 at 13:13 (3,528 days old) by repair-man (Pittsburgh PA)        
Just my opinion...

but I don't have much confidence in anything that Whirlpool does these days. In the past I thought Whirlpool was the overall best brand that you could buy. Parts to repair where very reasonable too. Not anymore in my experience.

Post# 774135 , Reply# 39   7/30/2014 at 14:15 (3,528 days old) by fisherpaykel (BC Canada)        
Fabric wear

Frigilux, thank you, exactly my first thought, longer cycle times equal more wear and tear. How long to dry a load of jeans or towels? Next thoughts, when will these become mandated for electric dryers, when will the speed cycle be banned, and is this partly the result of gas industry lobbying? Which will fail first- the control boards or the heat pump system? I noticed the Miele link mentioned a special cooling mode to prevent heat pump overheating. A bit of complication to a formerly simple appliance.

Post# 774138 , Reply# 40   7/30/2014 at 14:27 (3,528 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
A bit of complication to a formerly simple appliance!

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{BINGO}

Malcolm


Post# 774151 , Reply# 41   7/30/2014 at 16:09 (3,528 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Fabric Wear

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Have not noticed things receiving more wear when dried in the Oko-AEG Lavatherm versus a standard dryer. Some say the moist and steamy internal environment coupled with a more gentle drying process of condenser dryers are better for laundry.

Post# 774153 , Reply# 42   7/30/2014 at 16:32 (3,528 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

There is a big difference between a Air Cooled condenser dryer and a Heat Pump condenser dryer. The both have the same time drawbacks, but the heat pump unit has the following benefits over air cooled condenser

1) Works in all temperatures, infact the warmer the room the better the outcome.
2) Doesn't return heat to the room, heat pumps just move warmth from place to place
3) Only needs about 1-2Kw vs 4-5kw to operate.

If the machine has a heating element in addition to a heat pump, it should get up to speed quickly and still be able to condense rapidly due to the refrigeration. Someone needs to try one before everyone assumes that they're the same as a euro Heat Pump only model.

I've toyed with the idea of replacing the current Miele condenser with one, but for the 20 loads a year I actually put in the dryer, its definitely not worth it.


Post# 774228 , Reply# 43   7/30/2014 at 21:00 (3,528 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Someone needs to try one before everyone assumes that they&#

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That someone won't be me, that I can promise you. *LOL*

Two thousand plus when you factor in taxes and delivery for a dryer that will take longer to get the job done *and* uses new to the USA technology? Not with a barge pole..... One condenser dryer is more than this household already required. *LOL*

So long as there is a vast and plentiful supply of used electric dryers on the resale market or otherwise it could be decades before any sort of government mandate really took hold. I mean you can find dryers from the 1950's still perfectly chugging along. Modern versions have more bells and whistles but in the end what most persons want is dry laundry done quickly.

I'll tell you something else, this Whirlpool "Hybrid" probably is going to have to be teamed up with a "HE"/fast final spin speed washing machine. Otherwise performance will suffer. Even with 900rpms final spins in a front loader condenser dryers suffer. Standard advice is to spin the load at greatest speed that won't harm the machine and or clothing, then chuck it into condenser dryer. You need to get residual moisture levels down.


Post# 774280 , Reply# 44   7/31/2014 at 00:20 (3,528 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Time to dust off those clotheslines!!!

Post# 774281 , Reply# 45   7/31/2014 at 00:21 (3,528 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Time to dust off those clotheslines!!!

Post# 774319 , Reply# 46   7/31/2014 at 05:16 (3,528 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
or to go on the hunt for a vintage dryer like these

pierreandreply4's profile picture
or time to go on the hunt for a vintage dryer like the picture i am setting up like older whirlpool dryers ge fridgedaire maytag inglis kenmore ect of the vintage caliber

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Post# 774325 , Reply# 47   7/31/2014 at 06:06 (3,528 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I have an old vintage GE dryer-at this stage keep using it until it dies-then go dryer shopping at the appliance swap shop near me-Don't think I want a heat pump dryer.At 2 loads a week-the HP model will NEVER pay for itself-esp priced at 2K.

Post# 775057 , Reply# 48   8/2/2014 at 21:48 (3,525 days old) by electronicontrl (Grand Rapids, MI)        
Dust off the clothes line......

electronicontrl's profile picture
I did just that today! I love line-dried bed sheets!!

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Post# 789901 , Reply# 49   10/21/2014 at 09:42 (3,446 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

Just found this review:

 

laundry.reviewed.com/content/whir...


Post# 789914 , Reply# 50   10/21/2014 at 12:16 (3,446 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture





Post# 789915 , Reply# 51   10/21/2014 at 12:19 (3,446 days old) by iej (.... )        

@laundress:

One thing to note is that heat pump dryers don't throw out any heat to the room. The traditional condenser dryers are using the room as a heat sink with an air-to-air heat exchanger. They have to dump some of the heat into the air to drop the temperature of the recirculating air cool enough to cause the moisture to condense out of it.

With a heat pump that's all done in a closed refrigeration cycle.

The result is that they do not heat the room and they do not depend on the room temperature being cool enough to condense the water either.


A traditional condenser actually works best somewhere like in a cold garage as it can rapidly lose heat. In a warm centrally heated home, they're actually very annoying or at best will heat the room they're in.



Post# 789925 , Reply# 52   10/21/2014 at 13:29 (3,445 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

A properly designed and built heat pump dryer SHOULD be faster at condensing the moisture out of the air since it POTENTIALLY can have a colder condensation chamber than an air-cooled condenser. How well the actual iteration of the idea works out remains to be seen. The big advantage for the power companies would be the reduction in current used to dry the load of laundry. They are not concerned about how fast the load is dried, just if it can be dried without adding too much to the demand on the generating and transmission equipment. Reducing demand is the reason that electric water heaters are slower than gas water heaters; they only operate one heating element at a time. If an electric water heater could run full out and heat with 9KW of energy, it would be very fast, but if every house with an electric water heater had them operating at that load every morning when people were showering, we would need twice the generating capacity that we have now, but for about an hour each day and heavier transmission and service entrance equipment and then it would not be needed again until the next day.

Sometime back, an owner of a heat pump dryer said that no-iron garments had to be spun at slower speeds because the dryer did not get hot enough to remove wrinkles as well as a standard dryer. The hybrid dryer design should overcome that.




This post was last edited 10/21/2014 at 18:13
Post# 789955 , Reply# 53   10/21/2014 at 17:01 (3,445 days old) by iej (.... )        

I've found our Bosch heat pump dryer pretty fast. The only major annoyance is that it doesn't reverse and tangles large items like fitted sheets, but that's nothing to do with the heat pump system.

Post# 789999 , Reply# 54   10/22/2014 at 00:12 (3,445 days old) by A440 ()        
Yea! Have fun!

Give me new or vintage Gas Dryer any day!  Or heck...I will deal with an electric over this new find any day.

It will be interesting to hear the reviews at others expense.  I am sure most will not tell the truth about the wonders of it all at first.  

B


Post# 790001 , Reply# 55   10/22/2014 at 00:40 (3,445 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I just dried 5 T-Shirts spun at 1200rpm yesterday on the Super Delicate cycle with low temp in our WP heat pump dryer. Took 1:15, never passend beyond 110° and all creases were removed. And the load absorbed the dryer sheet smell perfectly.

Post# 790003 , Reply# 56   10/22/2014 at 00:47 (3,445 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
The Fun Part...

mrb627's profile picture
Will be hearing the sales BS with regards to how great hybrid dryers are... Like we did when FL washers became the rage..

Malcolm


Post# 793881 , Reply# 57   11/14/2014 at 14:12 (3,421 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
INSTRUCTION MANUAL

logixx's profile picture
Post# 793890 , Reply# 58   11/14/2014 at 15:31 (3,421 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Heat pump dryer!

peteski50's profile picture
From viewing these instructions this dryer seems to be far simplar and more user friendly than the LG model.
Peter



Post# 793957 , Reply# 59   11/14/2014 at 23:12 (3,421 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        
I agree with Launderess...

The cost of bringing in 240v service would be prohibitive in most big cities, at least those in the northeast. Here in NYC, most buildings do not allow washers or dryers, at least officially. Therefore, even when they are tacitly allowed one is limited to 120v ventless units. Upscale/newer co-ops and condos that have washers and dryers nearly always have no venting available. The building I hope to move into will (so I've been told) revisit their "no washer" policy. However, NONE of the units have 240v service in them and none of the kitchen or bathrooms have exterior walls. So again, in practice one will be limited to a 120v washer/dryer combo or a stand-alone 120v condenser dryer (Equator makes the only one I know of).

LG has introduced a new 4.3 cu. ft. 120v washer/dryer combo. The brief blurb I read (on AJMadison?) stated that the drying times are reduced because of new technology (or some such non-information). To me, the fact that the supposed new tech was not described suggests that there isn't any.

I can't see people flocking to these new heat-pump dryers unless there are huge rebates. I don't see any advantage for the typical consumer.

Jim


Post# 793965 , Reply# 60   11/15/2014 at 04:04 (3,421 days old) by BoschExxcel ()        

Whirlpool have already introduced them onto the UK market.

ao.com/product/AZA9791-Whirlpool-...

Shame it wasn't available when I bought my Bosch condenser, as we use our dryer a lot and my room is normally around 22C, so it would be perfect for us.


Post# 793999 , Reply# 61   11/15/2014 at 08:52 (3,421 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Advantage Of Heat-Pump Dryers

combo52's profile picture
Is that they will use just 1/3 of the electricity as a regular 240V dryer, this will enable you in some cases to have a fast dryer that operates on 120 volts and requires NO EXTERIOR venting, it sounds like a win to me especially at NY power rates, these dryers will actually be a cheap to run as a gas dryer in most cases.

The goal here is reduce total power consumption and high loads on the power system.

These will be much like the 50 gallon Heat-Pump water heater I installed in my partners house, it draws just 6 AMPs on 240V instead of 25 AMPs for the old WH and after 4 years of use we can't tell any difference except for about a $22 saving on the electric bill every month. And look at the huge reduction in demand on the power grid when everyone is getting up on Monday morning and jumping in the shower in these all electric communities.


Post# 794116 , Reply# 62   11/15/2014 at 19:34 (3,420 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

Went to Energy Star's web site and it says the Whirlpool WED99 has an estimated energy use of 531 kWh a year versus 603 kWh for an Energy Star rated Whirlpool with traditional electric heating. However, I couldn't find anything on how they come up with these numbers or how much a "normal" dryer would use...


Post# 794132 , Reply# 63   11/15/2014 at 21:19 (3,420 days old) by lamont ()        

Curbside Supply Heatpump dryer.

find one electric "vintage" dryer.
Convert to 120V low wattage element.
find one 10,000BTU air conditioner with bad fan
create ductwork leading dryer out into AC cold side, over hot side, and back into intake.

Watch your electric meter spin!


Post# 794137 , Reply# 64   11/15/2014 at 21:53 (3,420 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Hmm I am not good at math in my head although I should be but.......so if you have an electric rate of .15 per kWh the difference per  week is between $1.53 or $1.73.  What can I do with 20 cents? Or about $10 per year.. Can't even buy a tank of gasoline with that or go out to eat, so no thanks. They would have to come up with a better line than this before I would get a heat pump dryer, nevermind that I have a natural gas dryer whose usage numbers don't even change after drying 5-7 loads of laundry and heating the water for it, plus washing dishes and taking a shower... in one day....and I have a gas utility that charges the highest rates in my state!

 

If they are really serious about energy savings they should be encouraging everyone to use natural gas.  Of course I realize this is often not feasible, but this is a hard sell to anyone who is using natural gas to dry their clothes,or anyone who actually does the math in their head vs the expense of buying this device. Can't make it pay for itself over it's lifetime which is about what.. 7 years in the USA?  Well with the added filters and such it will be 5 years in the USA, and don't worry, manufacturers have already figured out what parts to have break so you have to buy a complete new unit. Talk about dryers catching on fire--- you just wait for these units to hit.

 

This is nothing but energy star not being able to come up with anything else so they came up with this.   Heat pump dryers make sense in buildings that cannot vent..I get this. They don't make any financial sense to the hundreds of millions in the USA who dry their clothes using a vented dryer.. At least cost savings have not been proved yet by stating these numbers.  I realize that as an aggregate the cost savings mount, but we are not interested in everyone else, we are interested in what we ourselves can save.  This ain't it.

 

 

I don't care about the power grid.  I am paying them money and I expect to have electric.


Post# 794207 , Reply# 65   11/16/2014 at 06:51 (3,420 days old) by Kenmore71 (Minneapolis, MN)        

kenmore71's profile picture

@Logixx #62.

 

Thanks for those numbers. What is suspect is NOT included in those numbers is some way to account for the heated or air-conditioned air that is removed from your house over the course of drying a load of laundry. This air needs to be made up somehow. 

 

Now for those in the southern & southwestern U.S. who have their laundry installed in a garage, carport or porch this offers next to no savings in a practical sense. However, for those in the midwest or northeast who have to keep our laundry equipment IN the house and do not have natural gas service and are heating with oil, propane or electric, the amount of expensive heated air that is lost from a traditional dryer is not insignificant. 

 

Being a geeky collector, I LOVE using my Frigidaire Filtrator in the wintertime because it's extra heat AND moisture that goes into the house. But that's only for about 6 months of the year. Once  the temp in the basement goes above 70 degrees or so, she gets mothballed for the summer!


Post# 794212 , Reply# 66   11/16/2014 at 07:36 (3,420 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

The Whirlpool dryer does not vent - it adds a little bit of heat to the room.


Post# 794217 , Reply# 67   11/16/2014 at 08:06 (3,420 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

so if you have an electric rate of .15 per kWh

If we had an electric rate like this, people would celebrate as if the Berlin Wall had come down a second time. *lol* We, on average, pay more than twice that.

 

I've been looking up how much power a very efficient heat pump dryer uses. Turned out it's 0.08 kWh per lbs. of laundry (cotton fibre with 60% moisture remaining after the spin cycle). So, does anybody have any idea how much a traditional electric US dryer uses?


Post# 794229 , Reply# 68   11/16/2014 at 08:58 (3,420 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Heat-Pump Dryer Operating Costs

combo52's profile picture
Hi the Whirlpool figures in post #62 have got to be seriously off, by their figures that is not even a 10% savings, no one would ever build or buy such an appliance.

Hi Aaron [ post #63 ] Your idea will work but you need to do the math,

A 10,000 BTU A/C minus the fan motor draws about 800 watts, the motor and blower in a dryer draws about 400 watts, [ total 1,200 watts ] and you should not need a heater at all since heat will build-up as the clothing dries from the waste heat from the compressor, in fact you will end up venting some heat into the room for the dryers cool down period.

Now compare this to a typical electric dryer that draws 5,800 watts, now to be fair you would need an A/C that is closer to 18,000 BTUs to get the same drying speed as the orignal dryer, so your total power consumption would be around 1,800 to 2,000 watts, but as you can see this is not going to make your electric meter spin very fast compared to a regular dryer.

A Heat-Pump dryer as in many other HP uses around the house should draw around just 1/3 the total power.

The biggest problem I see in building a large, fast American style dryer is getting all the equipment in the cabinet. I think the the dryer will have to have a permanent pestle type base that would add about 12" of height to the appliance. Since pestles have become popular over the last decade I don't see this a deal breaker for American homes.


Post# 794241 , Reply# 69   11/16/2014 at 09:30 (3,420 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

From Energy Star's web site. Energy Star rated Whirlpool with normal electric heating vs. the heat pump version.


Post# 794306 , Reply# 70   11/16/2014 at 16:23 (3,419 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
How much an American dryer uses...

launderess's profile picture
Don't know off hand, but you can plug in the numbers here:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 795272 , Reply# 71   11/21/2014 at 15:35 (3,414 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Post# 795795 , Reply# 72   11/24/2014 at 14:25 (3,411 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Went to Energy star.gov to look at dryers, both electric and gas, but didn't look at more than the first page.  For electric they have an estimated yearly cost of 608 Kwh.  For gas they have an estimated yearly cost of 685 Kwh.  So since gas is not using electric to heat, why would they list gas as using more  electric than electric dryers?   I can't imagine the electric motors in my gas dryer are using more electric than the electric heaters and motors in an electric dryer.  Can't figure that out. Maybe I went to an old version of the web site.


Post# 795802 , Reply# 73   11/24/2014 at 15:28 (3,411 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

kb0nes's profile picture
Jerrod,

The actual electric power consumption of a gas dryer would be a small fraction of a model that uses electricity to provide the heat.

The way the website expresses power usage is to normalize other fuels (natural gas/propane) so as to express them as Kwh so there is a direct comparison.

They aren't taking energy costs into comparison, or looking at electrical generation and transmission losses. With those factors considered, a gas dryer will be cheaper and ultimately more energy efficient then a resistance electric heated model.


Post# 795957 , Reply# 74   11/25/2014 at 17:06 (3,410 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks for your comments.  Normalize?  Well this sounds stupid and devious, since the energy star site is supposed to be about energy costs and energy efficiency.  So they think I am paying the same amount for gas and electric?  They should think again.  

 

Just tell us what the costs are and what would be cheaper and more efficient given any particular electric or gas rate -  that's all they should be doing.


Post# 795960 , Reply# 75   11/25/2014 at 17:47 (3,410 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

kb0nes's profile picture
In the ratings that we are discussing, the Energy Star people weren't looking at cost, they are only looking at total energy consumed. And of course bear in mind its only an estimate due to numerous external factors.

Since it would be difficult to compare the energy used if they rated the electric dryer in Kwh and the gas models in Kwh + therms, they make the adjustment to show the energy consumed being either gas or electric in total Kwh. It is a bit spurious but it does allow for comparison.

I too would rather see them break down the amount of gas and electricity used, since then we could calculate cost based on our local gas and electric rates. The way its listed it is indeed difficult to determine what percentage each energy source makes of the total.


Post# 795998 , Reply# 76   11/25/2014 at 23:12 (3,410 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

My guess is that heat pump dryers won't really be practical until the cost comes down of high-efficiency solid state Peltier devices. A drier that used these would not be much more complex or less reliable than a conventional electric dryer.

Post# 796010 , Reply# 77   11/26/2014 at 00:44 (3,410 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        
High Efficiency Peltier Junctions?

kb0nes's profile picture
Unless there is a new development in solid-state cooling technology, I think this is an oxymoron. The Peltier junctions I'm familiar with are a number of times less efficient then traditional compressed refrigerant phase change cooling. This is the reason we generally see them used only for small cooling applications that must be portable, low cost and often run on 12 volt DC power.

For a large application like a dryer, Peltier cooling would probably use as much energy as resistance electric. And likely be more expensive to build then a traditional heat pump.


Post# 796041 , Reply# 78   11/26/2014 at 10:32 (3,410 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I can't get the comparison.

 

If I looked at this energy star site I would think that it would cost me more to use a gas dryer than an electric.....except that  in my case the money out of my pocket would less to operate a gas dryer than electric, and I have a gas utility that charges the highest rates in my region.

 

So I don't see a fair comparison at this site.  Better to show the amount of Kwh used for X number of cotton loads using electric.  The number of therms or Ccf used for the same number of cotton loads for natural gas, then have a calculator at the bottom of the page so that each individual can plug in their utility rates and let each person compare which is cheaper and figure it out for themselves.  We are talking energy efficiency.. but this site is using dollars as a savings so cost does matter.


Post# 796059 , Reply# 79   11/26/2014 at 12:34 (3,409 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

If you click on the (i) symbol on the product details page, a little info box comes up saying:

 

"The estimated annual energy use is based on the Combined Energy Factor and an annual usage of 283 cycles per year, as referenced by the U.S. Department of Energy test procedure, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 10, Section 430, Subpart B, Appendix D2. Actual energy consumption will vary on your usage patterns, including how often your run the dryer, what cycle you select, and load size. NOTE: For gas dryers the estimated annual energy use is expressed in kilowatt hours to allow for comparison, and represents the equivalent multi-source energy use of the product (e.g., natural gas or propane typically expressed in British thermal units (Btu))."

 

Also found the test procedure here:



CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK

Post# 796267 , Reply# 80   11/27/2014 at 19:56 (3,408 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

All well and good but since I am not interested in hearing energy usages expressed in KWH...don't care, cause I don't use that...show me how much it will cost me to use a natural gas dryer for 283 loads, vs how much it will cost me to use an electric dryer for 283 loads.   Let me have the ability to enter my cost per KWH and cost per therm then show me how much it will cost to do 283 loads of each.  That seems like the only way to understand how much it will actually cost me to dry 283 loads using either gas or electricity.  If I don't have a natural gas connection then maybe I don't care, but if I do, I want to be able to compare dollars and cents for both.  This is especially important, if we are now talking about heat pump dryers saving so much energy over standard electric.  Should I keep my natural gas dryer or should I pay to run new wires from my electric box  to a brand new 220V outlet , so that I can use a heat pump dryer?  That's why this would be important, and why I am feeling like the energy star site is not providing the information  needed to make an accurate comparison especially when they tell me it takes more Kwh to dry my clothes with gas....something that is not using electricity to heat, than it does with to dry my clothes with electric which is using a resistance heater, or resistance heater combined with a heat pump...I just don't trust what I see at the energy star site.

 

 

 

 



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