Thread Number: 55360
Bosch Dishwasher Fire 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 777595   8/16/2014 at 12:05 (3,532 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

I have a 2001'ish Bosch dishwasher which burnt last night when the controller in the door failed. Fortunately major damage was avoided with smoke only filling the kitchen. I bagged the controller and put it along with the console outside the house, but the smell is still very bad inside the house where I'm about to toss the balance of the unit in the back yard.

Bosch is offering 40% off of list on a new machine or repair of the existing machine. That said I'm afraid the smell will persist as Bosch won't do much more than replace the controller and perhaps a plastic part or two in the console. The 40% off of list is via sending the serial label to the manufacture and it appears wait for paperwork to get processed, where finally one has to order the unit directly from Bosch. Read this is likely to take some time. And 40% off of list translates into 20% off after the current rebate program and the nominal discount everyone offers... Read the 40% isn't such a big deal in the end.

I never received a recall notice and from my readings on the web Bosch didn't send anything to anyone else worldwide. Read they reduced their exposure by not incurring replacements unless the owner happened to find out about the recall. Hmmm....

I checked on the parts to refurb the machine and the cost exceeds the machine's value, even if Bosch picks up the controller (controller can't be purchased from what I can see in any case).

Is it worth playing the Bosch recall game? I'm somewhat pissed they didn't notify me and avoid what could have been a house fire.

To be honest I have been down the KitchenAid path in the past with multiple failures in short order after the warrantee was expired, where I got sick of fixing the machine. The Bosch was the replacement and it is 12 years old at this juncture. Overall I was happy with the reliability of the Bosch until the critical failure.

That said I'm drawn back to a Bosch based upon cost, or if dropping more money a Miele.

I haven't posted here in a very long time where I first purchased a Speed Queen front loader and never posted the results. The machine came with an out of round drum that caused it to walk rather dramatically. After a month of discussions with Wisconsin and no results I simply had VISA refuse to pay the retailer. I didn't like to do that to the retailer, but I was out of options. I got my money, the retailer got a useless Speed Queen. I purchased a Miele and I have zero problems. Great machine and at this juncture I have a lot of respect for Miele...





Post# 777602 , Reply# 1   8/16/2014 at 12:37 (3,532 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Ouch...

 I would give hell to Bosch. It was their "fault" which caused severe damage and could have caused way more than just a broken machine. Phone them, I think they will give you more than the 40%/the repair as you have been affected way more. (Others just get a repair before something happens, but it actually happend to you!)

Post# 777622 , Reply# 2   8/16/2014 at 17:10 (3,532 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

Just now talked to Bosch's hot line... First off they complained that this was an old recall, where I told them not only did I never received notification the Internet shows this is a common occurrence from the UK to South Africa. The response was they sent out multiple notices but for some reason some owners never received the notice. In the end it seems that I was expected to have had replaced the machine due to its age by the point.

Bosch stated repair or the 40% discount are my only options. But for the discount I need to go through a 4-6 week paperwork process for the discount to permit me to pay them for a new machine, shipping and in the end I have to install it myself (no big deal) and pay to trash the old machine. In other words they could have refunded part of the purchase price at a retailer and I would be whole in a week, but that isn't how it is handled.

Thus I told Bosch repair the machine as soon as possible. An authorization code was issue along with a phone number to call. I called the number and told them to setup a repair where the person suggested they need to see if in fact the unit can be repaired, if parts are available, etc. Their representative is scheduled to come out in a week.

I decided to get them to repair the unit while I research what to replace it with. In my mind Bosch is negligent where their record keeping is totally flawed. Obviously people post to the Internet when there is significant motivation (thus negative reports), but I couldn't find anyone who posted that they received notification and received satisfaction before the unit has a critical failure. As such I'm of the opinion not to trust Bosch in the future.

I liked the design of the Bosch with its simplicity (e.g. two pumps, water heater, fill valve and controller as the principle parts). Any opinions on what to replace the unit with which has similar characteristics?

Post# 777649 , Reply# 3   8/16/2014 at 20:54 (3,532 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Similar Characteristics

 Well, after all, this is about like any DW. Pumps, filters, heater, water-work and controler. Some may have an integrated water softner, but they simply don't fail as long as you only allow dishwasher salt and pure water to enter it (so simply, keep its lid closed).
I suppose, lots gonna suggest to go old school/vintage, but as this is a Bosch made past 2000 that has to be replaced, a replacement should at least have equal data (so, not more than 20l/5 gal water usage max and a noise level below 50db, probably). My first suggestion would be Bosch, but, yeah, I don't think you want to go with Bosch again ;)
As I did often till now, I would suggest a simple Miele, maybe, if you have no problem with spending a bit more, I'd suggest to go with a model with the advanced pump (actually, it is not mentioned on their US webpage, but if you ask a good salesperson, he/she should help you understand what I mean) without brushes. They actually tend to last way longer. Of course, with Miele, you get into the 1500$ area quite easy, but really, even with a budget model (so, 1000-1200$) you get amazing build and wash quality as well as efficency and silence. The racking needs some adapation, but you'd soon see that it actually offers way more flexibility through it overall more flat layout but still quite big, yet sometimes hidden, offer of plante stands.

Post# 777676 , Reply# 4   8/17/2014 at 00:04 (3,532 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

joe_in_philly's profile picture
I did receive recall notices in the mail, and a phone call from Bosch. It took all of about 5 minutes for the repairman to replace the controller.

Post# 777699 , Reply# 5   8/17/2014 at 05:11 (3,531 days old) by glenfieldmathk1 (Glenfield-Leicester-UK)        

I'm so sorry for you & your family, it could have been much worse situation.

However its been on the Bosch Website for the past 2 years, in fact on bosch-homeus it came up as soon as you hit the homepage up (they have removed it now, but info is still at the bottom) to highlight there's a fault.
Its been on the news, on this website numerous times etc, so to not take action, is generally your own fault. (I guess it would have featured on US news sites/tv news etc, it did feature on ITV & BBC news several times in the UK, and shops that sold the appliances also sent out letters here in the UK, meaning some got 2 letters (like us))

"I never received a recall notice and from my readings on the web Bosch didn't send anything to anyone else worldwide."
Well yes they did actually!
If you didn't register your appliance, how is Bosch going to know to send a recall notice out. They sent us one, and ours wasn't even effected. They still sent a mechanic out free to check it anyway.

I think its only right they offer you a free repair, or 40% off a new appliance. Can you just imagine, if no one took action, then wanted a free appliance when something went wrong? (Hotpoint, Candy, LG, Bosch, Beko would all be out of business).
Yes its there own manufacturing fault, but that's why there's 40% off, and I'm sure your'll be able to claim some compensation for the damage caused to the plates inside/worktop etc.
There's no known faults with the current Bosch dishwasher range, though as your in the states, I'd choose a US made machine, less costly if something did go wrong.
When we visited Florida, both Times, we had a Hotpoint (GE) dishwasher, it seemed power full, Quick, good results, ok loud but better than nothing!!

Sorry for being harsh, but think its fair points really.

Post# 777719 , Reply# 6   8/17/2014 at 09:22 (3,531 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

I in fact registered the machine and to be honest I don't frequent appliance manufacture's web sites given I'm not in that industry. Up until now there was no reason to look at Bosch's appliance web site. If I periodically polled the various manufacture's web sites for everything I own, looking for recalls, it would be a full time job. Consulting with my family no one recalls seeing this in the news, but I'm sure it got a mentioned at some point.

Bosch US stated yesterday that they sent out notices, but they also cited that they are aware that some US customers never received notification. And in fact they cited they are only aware of 30 failures where less than 15 involved damage. That statement was made in a manner to mitigate the fact that I never received notification in the mail. Sigh.

My reaction with respect to notification is based upon a Google search where there are very many complaints of machine failures where the owner (just not US) never received notification. Note that I counted a large percentage of the 30 failures claimed in the US, which makes me believe there are more than 30 in the US.

I plan to call the local appliance retailer on Monday to find out if they were asked to notify the buyers of the machines. On this point I'm simply curious at this juncture.

It has been more than 24 hours and I can't get the smell out of the house. And at this juncture most of the machine has already been removed from the house. In other words I really just need a replacement machine because I can't live with the smell which appears to have permeated the machine's insulation.

On this latter point Bosch's offer is not a 40% rebate on a replacement machine via a rebate with proof of ownership of the recalled machine where one simply buys a replacement and mails in the documentation. One has to request a package from Bosch. Once it arrives mail them the proof of ownership and wait for them to mail out an authorization to purchase a new machine at a discount. Then one has to turn around and order a unit from the manufacture. Finally one has to wait for them to ship it out. But in the end I have to install the unit and pay the trash hauler to remove the recalled unit given this is not done free in my town. This process seems overly complex and if the idea was to get someone to simply ignore the 40% it is working with this owner. And in fact the 40% is a discount off of list, where Bosch's machine's are not sold at list price. In the end the 40% discount amounts in real terms to $125 using a middle of the line unit with the out the door price as of yesterday, including Bosch's ongoing sale. Honestly I would pay $125 to get the smell out of the materials in my house!

Having slept on it I'm simply going to my Miele dealer today and setup an install for this week. They will haul off the old unit and I don't pay anything for the install or hauling charge.

For reference I have zero interest in compensation from Bosch on a punitive basis. That said I will think twice about future Bosch appliance purchases. Note I do have dealings with the automotive division where that organization is very good.

Post# 777720 , Reply# 7   8/17/2014 at 09:23 (3,531 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

One more point. Enough said on this topic....

Post# 777724 , Reply# 8   8/17/2014 at 09:59 (3,531 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I think you aren't harsh, it is, indeed, strange that somebody did not recognize this recall. There was even an add in our news paper twice, but if somebody can ensure they had not taken notice at all, I think, it is still a fault of Bosch. Of course, it is verry rare somebody did not recognize it, but if somebody did not, they should come up for any damage around the DW at least.
Anyway, you said you would either go with the Miele G4225 or the G5225. As far as the Miele web site states, there are a few differences:
1. The cycle setup on the G5 is the more advanced on. The G4 offers 5 cycles with a seperate pre-rinse (I think), the G5 replaces the pre-rinse with the Express cycle (which is either a fast 40° wash and a final rinse or, if you select “Turbo", the same as a pre-rinse) and adds a China/Delicate cycle.
2. The G5 is supposed to have a cuttlery basket instead of the cuttlery tray the G4 has. Strange to me, but, this is a simple thing of preference. Some like the additional space in the lower basket and the more ergonomical height of the cuttlery tray , some prefer the simple and less time needing loading of the cuttlery basket.
3. The G5 has a built in water softner. This is especially good if you have hard water.
4. The G5 has an overall more advanced racking. Again, some need and like this, for some it can get annoying.
5. The G5 has the PerfectGlassCare system. This system uses 2 main features if I rememner corectly: First, a kind of heat exchanger is used to reduce temperature drops in the transfer from hot main wash to cold rinse. (At least if I got this right the last time I digged into it...) Second, the more unique system adapts the water softner system. These water-softners can only reduce the water hardness to one level. So, how ever hard the water that enters the machine is, it always is softend to the same level. But for a perfect glass care, Miele says, sometimes, this is to soft water. So Miele developted a system that alternates a mix of hard line water and softend water to reach the perfect water hardness for the perfect results on glasses.
In the end, it is really up to you wheather you really want the features or to save some money.

Post# 777770 , Reply# 9   8/17/2014 at 12:35 (3,531 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        
Done - G5225

 For reference I purchased a G5225 for delivery on Friday of this week. While I could have considered a different higher end model in white Miele's options are limited. We have a white kitchen and I won't deal with keeping stainless...free of stains. I had them include the silverware basket at no charge given the silverware drawer is across the kitchen....

In a quick search of the site there has been discussion with respect to extended warrantee merits but I don't recall any real conclusions. The lower end units in the US include a one year warrantee. Only the units which are $1000+ include a five year warrantee with registration. In short the extended warrantee is $168 from the retailer or $245 from Miele. But Miele told me when I purchased their washer that in fact they use this retailer's service organization to supplement their limited staff in my region. My sense is that if anything breaks $168 worth four additional years of coverage. But what is the probability of issues in the first five years on a dishwasher?


Post# 777783 , Reply# 10   8/17/2014 at 13:28 (3,531 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Issues & Racking

 First, congratulations on your purchase!
Second, I don't think you'll have problems in years 2-5. If something is produced wrong, it'll probably show up in year 1. If something fails within the first 10 years, it is most commonly the pump after round about 8 years, but even this is a pretty rare case, so, probably 1 or less units out of 100. Of course, ones you have problems, a Miele service call starts out at 90€/~120$. With parts, getting into the 300$ is not hard. So, when the very rare case takes place, you'll always think "Why did I not get the extended warranty!", though, of you don't need it, you'll ask yourself why you bought it. Its a thing of trust and in the end, depends on the person you are just as the preferences in terms of racking.
On the topic of racking, I found these 2 Videos comparing the G4 (Classic) and G5 (Crystal) line. Though they aren't really needed any more, I thought I'd post them anyways.
So, first, the G4:




And than, the G5:



I suppose, this will give you some ideas on how to use the racking as well.
So, enjoy your new DW, tell us how you like it and may it last for a long long time!
Greatings from Germany
Henrik

Post# 777799 , Reply# 11   8/17/2014 at 14:45 (3,531 days old) by dascot (Scotland)        

Mat,

Your post comes across as rather rude and condescending, which you may not have intended, but you have to remember that

- Many people will not look on a manufacturers site unless they are researching a new appliance or hunting for a resolution to an issue.

- Bosch, Siemens, Neff, Hotpoint et al did not send recall notices out in the post at first. They did later, but this was after the recalls had been active for some time. However, that is in UK, and they possibly only went to people who were affected (I never received one, though my machine was manufactured in the time scale affected) - you don't know what they did in the USA. See also the other thread about Hotpoint dishwashers (post the Bosch made range) where they didn't take action until after a number of cases had already occurred.

- Accusing people of bringing it on themselves by not taking action is not a nice way to speak to people generally.

VSC - good luck with the Miele install. I suspect if you ask Bosch, they may cover the cost of cleaning/smell removing. It would, in the scheme of things, be a small price to pay to get some goodwill back from you.

Post# 777860 , Reply# 12   8/17/2014 at 20:12 (3,531 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

That you for the videos. They are informative even at this juncture.

When I went back to Miele USA's web site I noticed that the white unit has a cutlery basket versus the stainless unit cites a cutlery tray. My sales person said the white (G5225WH) unit is identical to the stainless (G5255SS), but the manufacture's web site would indicate otherwise. No big deal, but I'm wondering if anyone knows if Miele always feature a cutlery tray in their design?


Post# 777892 , Reply# 13   8/18/2014 at 00:49 (3,531 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
If they haven't done the repair on the Bosch yet, here is my $.02:

If Bosch is issuing the repair order, they have to repair the machine to a refurbished state meaning that anything affected by the controller burn needs to be repaired. If it marred the interior in anyway and the insulation is ruined because of odor, they have to replace the parts.

Make them rebuild the machine to where it looks like it did before the controller burned and smelled like it did before the controller burned.

Make sure the machine runs and doesn't leak, then offer it up for sale after the repair is done....

If Bosch were to refuse that repair, you'd have legal ways of taking care of this.. It would be too expensive for them to not rebuild the machine.

Post# 777904 , Reply# 14   8/18/2014 at 05:13 (3,530 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Few years ago, there were some models without cuttlery tray here in Germany, but as far as I know, now every Miele DW has the tray.
I don't know how this is in the US, but as the Miele web site got a facelift not to long ago, I think there are some wrong infos on it.
For Miele, as long as the main model number (so Gxxxx) is identical, the machines are identical. The letters after that number describe color, which build it is (intergrated, prefinished, fully intergrated) and wheather it is a big tub (XXL) or standard tub (no additional letters).
And as the Classic line features a tray, the G5s will probably offer one as well.

Post# 777910 , Reply# 15   8/18/2014 at 06:38 (3,530 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Only the SC models have the cutlery tray, the other models have a basket.

Post# 777922 , Reply# 16   8/18/2014 at 08:11 (3,530 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

countryguy's profile picture
Not all Miele dishwashers have the cutlery tray. On the model I purchased, I had to pay $100 extra for the cutlery tray option....otherwise it was just the basket.

Gary

Post# 778931 , Reply# 17   8/23/2014 at 19:19 (3,525 days old) by vsc (Chicago)        

A day late, the G5225 was installed today and is busy doing its first wash right now. I'm not complaining, but for reference this model is louder than the Bosch it replaced.

In the end I found that only the stainless Miele dishwashers come with the cutlery tray. That said the tub is setup to accept a tray, where somewhere I read for ~$100 the tray can be purchased from Miele. Has anyone done this mod to add the tray?

With respect to the Bosch a couple of comments. While in the process of trashing the manual / install guide I found a note with the date indicating when the registration card was mailed to Bosch. Thus unless the postal service lost the card, Bosch'e record keeping was at fault.

This week I tried to contact Bosch US to speak to someone outside of the customer service channel to understand why the corporation failed to notify many of its customers or for that matter the retail chain of the recall. Every time I called the US head office they only would transfer me back to appliance customer service. Finally I told them I want an address to write to the company. They hung up on me several times upon repeated calls asking for the same information. I never spoke to anyone in upper management, nor was I able to get simple information like what is the address for the president of Bosch US.

Honestly I would never deal with Bosch again given what I encountered. I'll stop there, but you can be assured my feeling for Bosch US go far beyond this simple statement.


Post# 778946 , Reply# 18   8/23/2014 at 20:43 (3,525 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

countryguy's profile picture
I bought a Miele dishwasher in the spring and it has the cutlery tray and is black, not stainless.

Gary

Post# 779133 , Reply# 19   8/24/2014 at 17:57 (3,524 days old) by dascot (Scotland)        

VSC,

It's tricky to find, but a bit of googling and I may have an answer for you. The President & CEO of Bosch Home Appliances USA is Mr Michael Traub (www.bosch.us/content/language1/ht...) and it seems that the address for BSH Home Appliances in the USA is
BSH Home Appliances Corporation
1901 Main St # 600
CA 92614 Irvine
California
USA
(www.bosch.us/en/us/our_company_1/...)

The Chairman of Bosch USA (& member of board in Germany) is Dr Werner Struth, based at Robert Bosch LLC
38000 Hills Tech Drive
MI 48331 Farmington Hills
Michigan
USA

I would think that they'd be interested to hear your experiences of the (lack of) service provided by the Customer Support teams a the very least.

Good luck! :)

Post# 834656 , Reply# 20   7/31/2015 at 14:42 (3,183 days old) by Disgusted ()        
Bosch

The process I was forced to go through to get the promised 40% rebate for my dangerously defective dishwasher (see scorched wires in attached image), which died on the 15th of July, took more than two weeks, which was two weeks longer than it should have taken. I was never informed by my distributor that there was a recall on my machine, and had to pay an online expert to find out about it. I expedited the mailing of the required sticker so it would arrive on Monday the 20th, but when I finally got through to the "fulfillment hot line" on Friday the 24th, I was told that rebate requests were only transmitted to Bosch on Wednesdays, and despite the fact that they'd had 2 days to deal with it before Wednesday the 22nd, it would take until the following Wednesday for them to do it, after which it would take 2 more days to issue my rebate code. It's now Friday the 31st, and I finally got the code.

If Bosch had purposely tried to devise a system to alienate, infuriate, and discourage customers, it couldn't have done much better than it already has. As it is, we've had a full house and have been washing dishes by hand for the past 2 weeks, with another week or so to go before the replacement machine arrives. If I had known it would take this long, I'd have bought a machine (not a Bosch) from a dealer which would have been in service that weekend. I now hate Bosch, and would never recommend doing business with them to anyone. Congratulations, Bosch – you've lost a fan and made an enemy.



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