Thread Number: 56570
1976 Superba constantly running timer issue 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 788833   10/13/2014 at 15:09 (3,475 days old) by Creed ()        

Hello,

I joined this site because i have only one dishwasher and it's broken. I want to see if anyone can help in its repair so I won't have to unload it for a new model. I like the thing, and it's in good condition, but it's not helping me with the dishes.

It's a white Kitchenaid Superba model KDS-17A, serial #221, with the "heat off" button option. The Singer timer is stamped MAR 1 76.

Last week it did not spray water during the cycle, and all of the soap was left in the open dispensers. A few days later, when I pushed the "full cycle" button, the dishwasher began to run through each cycle continuously. The timer shaft continued to rotate through each cycle, at a steady pace, until I had to unplug the machine.

Any thought?

Thanks




Post# 788838 , Reply# 1   10/13/2014 at 16:07 (3,475 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Cancel Drain???

 Just a quick thought.. is it possible that the cancel/drain button is stuck pushed in and is causing it to just keep advancing? You might want to try pulling the button out and see if that helps. You may also have to remove the control panel and see if the program switch is resetting completely.
It does sound like it is a program button problem to start with and then of course, the timer may also be at fault. Check further and let us know.

John L. what do you think?

Post# 788969 , Reply# 2   10/14/2014 at 09:21 (3,474 days old) by Creed ()        

Thanks stevet, for your help.

After removing the face plates for both the controls and the lower components, I insured all of the buttons worked in and out as they should. Then I started the dishwasher on the normal cycle and it ran to about half way and turned off. I opened the door, pushed the normal cycle button again, and the dishwasher finished its cycle. Unfortunatly, there is no water being delivered.

I know the water is turned on, and the newly cleaned filter is clear and flowing, but from that point on I have no idea what is stopping the water. There is a black hose running from the rear of the water filter, up the inside of the machine, and down again through a white hose, but I can't tell if there is water running through them.

So, the cycles seem to be running better, but the water is not reaching the tub. Any ideas?

Thanks

Post# 788984 , Reply# 3   10/14/2014 at 12:02 (3,474 days old) by Creed ()        
Float switch?

 and.......a lot of the material I read mentions checking the float switch, to see if it's stuck. They say it's usually a plastic cap, in the front corner of the tub, but there is only a tube in the back right corner, that has a metal cover on it. It looks like water can get under that cover, into the pipe, so is that my float switch? If so, is the actual switch down in that tube?

Thanks again

Post# 788986 , Reply# 4   10/14/2014 at 12:14 (3,474 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Your machine has a pressure switch for overfill, via a small hole in the sidewall of the pump sump.  KA switched to a float a on a later model series.

The metal cover at right rear is the blower duct for drying.

Post# 788998 , Reply# 5   10/14/2014 at 14:01 (3,474 days old) by Creed ()        
Motor shaft question

 Thanks DADoES,

That system seems to be working as it should. I just ran a complete wash cycle and it was warm in there. The heat heats, soap dispenser dispenses, the drain drains so all I need now is a little water.

Should the bottom center shaft, that the water jet arms and water strainer fit over, turn by hand? Mine does not, even with a little help from a pair of pliers. If it should, that might be an indication of some sort.

Thanks

Post# 789031 , Reply# 6   10/14/2014 at 18:42 (3,474 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
The arm support shaft should *not* turn.  Don't wrench a wrench or pliers on it lest it break loose.  The arm rotates on the shaft via the water spraying out of it, same as does a rotary lawn sprinkler.

No water, first step is check the fill valve where the incoming water line is connected.  To be 100% sure the supply line is OK, disconnect it from the valve and run it into a bucket.  Then test the valve solenoids with a meter.

Post# 789078 , Reply# 7   10/15/2014 at 05:55 (3,473 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Malfunctioning KDS-17A KA DW

 combo52's profile picture
Hi Steve, I think your thoughts on the orignal problem are right on the money.

The non filling issue could be a clogged tube going to the over-fill switch, a bad over-fill switch and of coerce a bad fill valve. At this point you have to test to see if a 120 volts is getting to the fill valve, if so replace the fill valve.

On a DW of this age it is a good idea to replace this valve even if it seems to work.

John L.

Post# 789107 , Reply# 8   10/15/2014 at 09:40 (3,473 days old) by Creed ()        
Fill valve testing

 Thanks gentlemen, I feel a fix is just around the corner.

The videos I see explain how to test the fill valve with one (1) valve and two (2) wire terminals. Easy enough. But the fill valve on this model has two (2) valves and four (4) electrical terminals. The wires are, front to back, white-black-two white-two black.

How should I test this with the multimeter?

If I find that the valve is bad, where can I get another?

Thanks



Post# 789115 , Reply# 9   10/15/2014 at 09:58 (3,473 days old) by Creed ()        
Fill valve sketch

 Here is a pretty good drawing of the valve in question, from an old Popular Mechanics issue.

books.google.com/booksQUESTIONMAR...

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Creed's LINK
Post# 789172 , Reply# 10   10/15/2014 at 18:31 (3,473 days old) by Creed ()        
Looks like a valve problem

 On another thread, stevet gave advice on testing the valve by opening the door, closing the handle lever, holding the door contact in and pushing the "rinse" button. As I did that, the cycle ran but no water came out of the small fill hole on the left/middle wall of the tub.

Then I tested the first two (2) contacts on this duel-coil valve with my multimeter. The single white and black wires. I got nothing.

Thanks






Post# 789212 , Reply# 11   10/15/2014 at 21:21 (3,473 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
start with pressure switch

 Check and see if you have voltage at the wires at the pressure switch. If not, then you need to really go further into the wiring to see what is happening.If you do have voltage, then the switch is open and not allowing the voltage to go to the valve. (The switch is a normally closed switch when there is no water in the tank.)
You may also have a plugged hole in the sump that allows the pressure of the water in the tank to act upon the pressure switch. Remove the strainers and look on the left side of the sump for a small hole. That leads to the hose that runs to the pressure switch. Take a Q-Tip and remove the cotton swab,then try to insert it into the hole and see if that clears up anything that may have clogged it up.

DO NOT use a metal tool of any kind as you may puncture the tube connecting the pressure switch to the little nipple on the side of the sump that you are trying to clean out.

Hope this helps you find the problem.

Post# 789326 , Reply# 12   10/16/2014 at 14:33 (3,472 days old) by Creed ()        
That's it, I'm done

 Well, I have removed, cleaned and checked as many components of this dishwasher as I am going to. It still does not function, so it is free to whoever wants it. I live in the South East Michigan area (Grosse Pointe Farms) and will help load this dishwasher into anyones vehicle. It's free!

It is a white Kitchenaid Superba model KDS-17A with the "Energy Saver" option button. The Singer timer is dated MAR 1 76. The original fill valve assembly seems to have been replaced with a KDC-17 fill valve assembly. Other than this dishwasher not filling with water, it is in pretty good condition other than some flaking of the door panel under-edge.

Up until a couple of weeks ago, it worked fine for over three years. Then one day it just stopped filling. Send me a note here, and it's yours.

Thanks

Post# 794972 , Reply# 13   11/19/2014 at 19:09 (3,438 days old) by Creed ()        
Never say never, i guess

 I still have the KDS-17A, and I did break down and buy a new water valve, and the valve works like a charm. The new issue is that the machine now overfills. I have slightly flooded the kitchen twice now and need some more advice because I have put too much time into it to let it go now.

The water valve is new and working. It is a single valve type, replacing the double valve type that was on it, so I just taped off the other two wires. The drain solenoid functions during the chancel-drain function so I believe it's good. I think the only things left are the water level pressure switch and the timer.

During my earlier efforts, when I had the pressure switch out, I could both slide a Q-tip all the way in without any resistance, and I could also hear the switch activate when I blew into it.

Any ideas?

Post# 795012 , Reply# 14   11/19/2014 at 21:53 (3,438 days old) by barcoboy (Canada)        

barcoboy's profile picture
I believe your diagnosis is correct in either the pressure switch or timer being at fault, with my hunch being the pressure switch. It would depend on how the 17 normally operates that would determine which is to blame. If the 17 works the same way as an 18 does, with the obvious difference in that the 18 uses a float switch instead of a pressure switch, the timer normally controls the duration of the fill, and the switch is only to shut off the fill valve in case the timer for whatever reason keeps the water on too long and the water level gets too high. The other way that the 17 might work is that the timer sends power to the fill valve for multiple increments and the pressure switch is used to determine the level to turn off the valve. In either case, the pressure switch should be wired in line between the timer and fill valve. Since your fill valve is new, I doubt that it is to blame, and if the timer was faulty, the pressure switch would also have to be faulty for the timer to continue to be able to send power to the fill valve. The sure way to find the culprit would be to test the pressure switch with a multimeter, either by doing a continuity check when the dishwasher is both empty and full of water (switch should be closed when empty, and open when full), or by taking voltage readings at the switch and make sure the voltage drops down to 0 when the dishwasher is full of water. Of course if you aren't comfortable doing this, don't... find someone to help you.

Of course not ever having seen a 17 or a wiring diagram for one, the fill system could work completely different than an 18... someone will soon confirm or dis-confirm what I have written, as well as tell us which way the fill works.

Post# 795085 , Reply# 15   11/20/2014 at 08:49 (3,437 days old) by Creed ()        

Thanks barcoboy! I'll give it a try with the multimeter to see what I get.

Post# 795087 , Reply# 16   11/20/2014 at 08:56 (3,437 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Could be that the flow rate of the replacement valve is a bit high.  Fill periods are timed, with a flow-washer in the inlet valve to moderate the GPM flow over a range of household supply pressures.

The pressure switch is only for overfill protection.  A small amount of leaking can occur if the tub level reaches the pressure switch trigger point ... but typically that doesn't happen (per my experience with a KDI-17a) unless the machine is paused and restarted with a maximum fill, if the spray arm sloshes some water out of the door vent.

Post# 795100 , Reply# 17   11/20/2014 at 11:25 (3,437 days old) by Creed ()        

Thanks DADoES,

There were multiple filters, washers and a second valve, with the new water valve kit. I installed the set-up that the instructions said to install, for my machine, but that could be wrong. I'll look at that too.

Thanks

Post# 795154 , Reply# 18   11/20/2014 at 17:42 (3,437 days old) by Creed ()        

Well, I just successfully ran two cycles through the Kitchenmaid, while laying on the floor watching for water, with no mishaps. I'm not really sure what I did, if anything, to make it work. Those are long cycles!

The water valve set-up was in question, so I opened it up again and everything was in there like it was suppose to be. I did clean the contacts, but they weren't really dirty. I took the overflow valve off and ran water through it, blew into it a few times so the needle would pop up and down, then remounted it. I did find that the machine wasn't level, so just in case that had any bearing on the overflow situation, I leveled it by raising the front about 1/2". Other than that, it looks to be working now.

There was one issue that still puzzles me, Initially, before it was fixed, I would turn the water supply on and the water would run non-stop into the tub. I had to empty the tub a few times. Then I noticed that the counsel lights weren't on, so I found that the electrical outlet plug was not seated tight enough. When I pushed the plug into the outlet better, the lights came on and the water situation corrected itself. That made me wonder about a power outage. Would the water run free if there was not power? After the two successful cycles, I unplugged the machine, expecting the worse, but the water did not run.

Any ideas why it was running open?

Thanks


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