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Thread Number: 5672
LG Steam washer, Anyone tried it yet? |
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| Post# 118782 3/30/2006 at 08:37 (6,594 days old) by ggibson () | ||
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This may be my first FL washer. Has anyone tried it yet? | ||
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| Post# 119085 , Reply# 1 3/31/2006 at 15:02 (6,593 days old) by acerone () | ||
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At Best Buy if your not happy with it you can return it for a refund with-in the first 30 days. | ||
Post# 121327 , Reply# 2 4/11/2006 at 03:55 (6,582 days old) by sudsmaster  (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 121337 , Reply# 3 4/11/2006 at 07:11 (6,582 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 121338 , Reply# 4 4/11/2006 at 07:12 (6,582 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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| Post# 121369 , Reply# 5 4/11/2006 at 11:44 (6,582 days old) by spinout (Phoenix) | ||
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Funny, Toggle, I was thinking the same thing about F/L cycle times. We know they can't make them [cycle times] shorter, or they would be poor performers (ala Speed Queen). Hey, here's an idea: How about a T/L with Heavy steam or perhaps virtual water? | ||
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Post# 121439 , Reply# 8 4/11/2006 at 15:56 (6,582 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Problem is American front loaders are wedded to using 120v power, hence those long cycle times for any cycle requiring the heater. Personally think this whole "steam" washer is a gimmick, especially since the unit runs on 120v. V-Zug washers also offer "steam" cleaing but those babies run on 220v/240v single and IIRC even two/three (cannot remember which), phase power. One can heat several gallons of water pretty quickly with that much power, even winter Swedish tap cold water. SQ front loaders are based on their commercial laundromat washers where turn over is key. Unlike say European laundromat washers that can take just as long to complete a cycle as their domestic cousins, American laundromat washers are designed for fast turnover so more customers can use them, and the mat owner makes more money from less machines. All things being equal, with the proper water temp and detergent chemistry, it should not take longer than 10 minutes to clean a wash load of of average soils. Since most laundromat washers almost always have a built in pre-wash by default, the short wash cycle is really a second wash, thus one has probably 12 minutes or so total wash time. For some strange reason, SQ's new front loaders omitted a pre-wash cycle. L. | ||
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Post# 121440 , Reply# 9 4/11/2006 at 15:57 (6,582 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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P.S. | ||
| Post# 121448 , Reply# 11 4/11/2006 at 16:25 (6,582 days old) by agiflow () | ||
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Tide,Zout and a KM 90 series TL ...perfectly clean clothes in under 40 minutes. Pat flying the flag for all of us N.American TL users. | ||
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Post# 121457 , Reply# 13 4/11/2006 at 17:21 (6,582 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia) |
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Important Note I dont use all those brands of detergent in one load, just an example of there being no Persil in sight. :) | ||
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Post# 121488 , Reply# 15 4/11/2006 at 20:53 (6,582 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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When a TL is used, the complete cycle time on a normal wash is around 30 minutes Why isn't that long enough to clean a load in a FL, To be effectuve a front-loader (with so little water) MUST have multiple rinses. These take time 1 minute fill 2 minute tumble 1 minute drain 1 minute spin so 5 minutes MINIMUM for each additional rinse. SO an average 3-rinse machine takes a minimum of ten minutes longer. PLUS the flush rinse after the wash water drains PLUS time to balance PLUS ramping-up the spin speed in increments to reach the 1,000+ mark. THIS ASSUMES A HOT WATER FILL. If the machine starts with cold water and heats it, ADD HOURS. | ||
| Post# 121507 , Reply# 16 4/11/2006 at 22:09 (6,582 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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front loader follies I LOVE the old front loaders and LOATHE modern front loaders for that very thing,they take WAY too long,especially on trying to balance themselves.It's maddening. | ||
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Post# 121511 , Reply# 17 4/11/2006 at 22:16 (6,582 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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OK, I've said this before and I'll say it again (and gansky1 has even said this to me on the phone) One needs to alter one's laundry habits with with modern front laoders. Europeans do it without thinking,t hey adjsuted long ago. Do a load of some sort every day or so--don't wait utnil you have piles and piles of Bob loads to do. Yes, it will take all day. And another point, cmbo washer/dryers, except for Bendix, took at least 1.5 hours to wash & dry. the Lady Kenmore Combo owner next door did two to four loads daily for her family. There were many a time the washer was going after everyone had had their nightly baths/showers. Get with the program and stop b**ching. If ya can't dael with it, go bacfk to your shredding top loaders. I"m like barpeter. I'm very sick & tiered of hunting down stains and pretreating them. I want the machine to deal effectively with the various stains automatically. | ||
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Post# 121525 , Reply# 19 4/11/2006 at 22:58 (6,582 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Austin, I whole-heartedly understand and largely agree with you. Bu8t as I get older, I want my life to be a bit simpler and more automatic. And besides, it's not always easy for me to see stains and gets very tiresome. So many, via THS, have adopted pretty well to the longer cycle times. These are "real world" environments with busy families and such. That's where the rubber meets the road. It's just like at Ross' house with those incredibly dirty roasting pans. Toggle got impatitent with the 2nd load and scootched the timer past the water heat on the final rinse. I even fussed at him cuz he messed with the proper order of "things". I don't give a you know what about how long the load takes to run, if it's going to save me a lot of drugery dealing with those disgusting pans. I was even surprised, one pan came completely clean the first time & the 2nd was almost clean--2nd load fixed that I"m sure. It's the ol-fashioned power-clean based Kenmore, something like your portable WP. I was even impressed, I don't think my PotScrubber could have done the equivalent job.
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| Post# 121542 , Reply# 20 4/12/2006 at 00:03 (6,582 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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It'll all come out in the wash Not to be controversial,or "agitate" things,no pun intended,but I won't be adjusting my schedule for an all day wash session.I can breeze them thru the Amana TL in no time flat and they're clean.The washer will have to adjust to me,I won't ajust my life for a washer. | ||
| Post# 121550 , Reply# 21 4/12/2006 at 00:58 (6,582 days old) by mistervain () | ||
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If the modern FL's filled up with enough water to begin with, there wouldn't be need for all these multiple rinses, steam (what a joke) and other nonsense, and consumers could have their 30-minute wash in a front loader. | ||
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Post# 121552 , Reply# 22 4/12/2006 at 01:34 (6,582 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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| Post# 121556 , Reply# 23 4/12/2006 at 03:24 (6,581 days old) by mistervain () | ||
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I'm jealous :) | ||
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Post# 121557 , Reply# 24 4/12/2006 at 03:36 (6,581 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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If, as Laundress points out, Euro FL washer take as long as American FL washers to complete cycles, then the American 110 volt standard is not the issue. In fact, most modern American 110 volt FL washers do not halt the timer in order to heat water. Instead they just limit the time of heating to a maximum of about 30 minutes, and continue tumbling during heating. Except, of course, for Sanitary cycles where the temp must reach over about 150F to earn that dubious distinction. I do not mind that my Neptune takes 109 minutes for the longest possible cycle (extra heavy wash 34 min, plus a 15 min pre-soak, plus the maximum rinses (4), plus max extract 9 mins). Most cycles with 4 rinses take about 59 minutes. My laundry closet is in my main living area - I can cook, work on the computer, watch TV, etc while the laundry is going and it doesn't really tie up my day at home. I can also set the machine to start in the morning before I go to work and then be back at lunch to hang the laundry up to dry (providing it ever stops raining in Northern California). The spotless results with the 109 minute hot boosted wash makes it all worthwhile. Of course, the Neptune tends to use more water - in some cases twice as much - as later American front loaders (25 gal per load average). I'm not claiming this makes it any better than newer FL's, but the Neptune is still the best fit for my laundry closet. | ||
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Post# 121564 , Reply# 25 4/12/2006 at 05:02 (6,581 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Efficiency!!!
Longer wash times for Euro machines are all about gaining the highest merrits for European Efficiency Standards...simple as that...no gimmicks....all fuss n hype!!! 90% of my loads are all on a quick wash cycle with ariel washing powder & confort conditioner, no pre-treat... 42mins Wash Time = 40d wash, heated from cold, thats 18 mins wash, 15 mins rinse (3 x 5mins) and a 1600spin over 9 mins, all done, super efficient... ALSO, Euro laundramat DONT have long wash times at all, cycle is done & dusted in 30 mins... | ||
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Post# 121676 , Reply# 28 4/12/2006 at 12:15 (6,581 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Is it me, or are F/L manufacturers obsessed with unreasonably extending cycle times by any method possible.......... ah Mike thank you very much~~ now we know why EUROPE goes for the longer times "OFFICIALLY" and why the average person across the pond (are you average?, which I suppose beats being commom. --wink--) may not go for the time-stretch method either. | ||
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Post# 121681 , Reply# 29 4/12/2006 at 12:30 (6,581 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Toggle---don't you agree that our Frigidaire FL'ers clean very well, on the WHITES cycle, in about 55 minutes? I'll occasionally add another 6 minutes to the wash cycle if the load is uber-stained, but that still holds the cycle to an hour. I love the FL format, but I'd go bananas if I had to wait 110-120 minutes for a cycle to be completed. AND, since I now wash everything in cold water, heating times aren't an issue... | ||
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Post# 121684 , Reply# 30 4/12/2006 at 12:36 (6,581 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Togs, again: I don't know if there are many new TL'ers with 30 minute cycles anymore. Consumer Reports lists most of them at 40-55 minutes, if I recall correctly. If a person REALLY wants a speedy cycle, then a vintage coin-op Frigidaire is your machine. I believe their cycle was a shade under 20 minutes. Amazing! | ||
| Post# 121689 , Reply# 31 4/12/2006 at 12:49 (6,581 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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Consumer Rip-offs,oops I mean Reports Consumer Reports lists TLs with 40-55 min.cycle times because the washers were tested at their maximum washing time-heaviest cycle. | ||
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Post# 121794 , Reply# 33 4/12/2006 at 17:16 (6,581 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Hi Eugene --waves---
I actually love my Frid-Ge-More front-loader and missed it when it was not hooked up. It has gone back in service and I'm going to try to bring it to my rental apt. if at all possible.The cycle time may be 45 minutes, but the machine reduces the dryer time to 45 minutes, so a wash and dry is still 90 minutes. If I had to pick one style of machine: The thorough gentleness and the loading flexibility of a F/L-er wins in my book. Sorry kids. Top-loaders' speed, convenience and ability to handle mud and grease is unsurpassable. But then again I haven't had any mud-wrestling parties lately. HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE: WE ALL DEFEND WHAT WE KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE, AND WHAT WE ARE ACCUSTOMED TO. THIS IS THE MOST NORMAL THING IN LIFE. | ||
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Post# 121836 , Reply# 35 4/12/2006 at 19:19 (6,581 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Euro vs American Front Loaders
Should make my previous statment regarding cycle times clearer. The last time I used a French laundromat washer was in the 1980's and, to me it did take ages when compared to the top loader we had back home. Indeed many "older" European front loaders, did have long cycles as the manual for my vintage Miele W1070 shows. Cottons at 200F had a cycle time of 118 minutes Using the half load button shortened the time down to 102 minutes. Because of something called "cycle gaurnatee" cycle times were kept regardless of water temp selected. So weather one washed cottons at 200F, 180F, 140F, 100F or 80F or 160F for a full load it took 118 mins,with short programs at 102 minutes except for 80F, which takes 72 minutes. Miele's manual states cycle times are given for "normal" conditions, and that other factors such electrical connection (the washer can be wired to run on 120v 20amp power, vs 220v 20 amp), and water supply. This washer has a timed fill, so am assuming if one had low water pressure, the machine will have to keep stopping (to a point) to add more water. Manual also states connecting the washer to a source of hot/warm water will also affect cycle times. Part of the reason for long cycle times on vintage Euro front loaders was due to two factors related to the detergents then available; enzymes and oxygen bleach. Both these substances in there then current form needed long contact time to really do their jobs. Enzymes about 20 minutes in warm to lukewarm water, and oxygen bleach 10 minutes at higher wash temps, and longer as water temp dropped below 130F Today's Euro detergents all contain bleaching activators which give "boil wash" performance at temps low as 100F. These means bleaching action starts faster in the cycle, so long boiling/bleaching is not required. Modern enzymes work in hot, cold, and warm water, thus work through out a wash cycle as the temp rises from cold water (assuming the washer is cold fill only)to warm or hot if that is the setting. Persil amoung other Euro detergents has been redesigned to work in "short" wash cycles. Should point out that for the 118 minutes my Miele manual states it takes for a normal cottons cycle,that includes a pre-wash, main wash,cool down rinse, five (5) rinses, graduated spin, final spin and high speed spin. Will stand by my previous statement that American front loaders with heaters take so blasted long because they are trying to heat water, run a motor, etc all on 115v/15 amp service. My Miele has two 1500 watt heaters, so even when using it on 120v/20 amp service, with one heater leg, it has more heating power than any of the American domestic front loaders to my knowledge. L. | ||
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Post# 121854 , Reply# 36 4/12/2006 at 20:00 (6,581 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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My Neptune doesn't take any longer to complete a cycle with heater engaged, vs. no heater. That's because it doesn't require the temperature to reach a certain point during the wash. It's meant to boost, only, and its on time is limited to 30 minutes total. I get around this by selecting the longest possible wash cycle, and generally it gets to its target point (130F) at some point in the wash cycle. If stain cycle is selected, there is a hidden bonus: the first rinse will be the same temp as the wash. For hot washers, this means a hot rinse. Since there is considerable residual detergent in the washer for the first rinse, this further extends the wash cycle. As I stated before, I believe most big American FL's don't require a temp to be reached, except for Sanitize cycles. So their various non-sanitize cycles shouldn't take any longer to complete with or without the heater engaged. Some, like the Speed Queen FL with internal heater, actually pause the tumbling while the heater is powered up. This in effect is a type of soak/stain cycle, and it will extend the wash cycle. Which in the case of the SQ, is a good thing, because it's cycles are too darn short to begin with. Your Miele's 1500 watt heater is about 50% more powerful than the 1000 watt heaters in most big American FL's. Perhaps that may make a difference, along with the lower water/laundry volume it needs to heat. It's nice that enzymes and oxygen bleaches can work at lower temps, but IMHO there is really no substitute for the power threesome: heat, time, and phosphates. | ||
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Post# 121868 , Reply# 38 4/12/2006 at 20:51 (6,581 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Actually Pat, front loaders did command a nice share of the market in the 1950s between the Westinghouses and Bendix. Those Bendix wouold just keep on going. I've heard a rumour that GE started an ad campaign of fear of a front loader flooding your house or basement just so they could entice those owners to buy a new GE toploader. It worked, people dumped their front loaders for the top loaders. Except for the die-hard fans and I have actually known 3 in my life who wouldn't have anything but a Westy front loader.
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Post# 121901 , Reply# 40 4/12/2006 at 22:46 (6,581 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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| Post# 121904 , Reply# 41 4/12/2006 at 22:50 (6,581 days old) by westytoploader () | ||
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I can say I have both...I have all TL's except for my Rustinghouse, which is a cross between a REAL front-loader and one of those horrendously crappy modern machines, with characteristics of both. *Ducks and runs* | ||
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Post# 121907 , Reply# 42 4/12/2006 at 23:52 (6,581 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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I generally stay out of any TL vs. FL debate, and I'm not really getting into it now [grin], just a few comments. Since the early 1970s to now, I can recall running across seven frontloaders in this "neck of the woods." That is not to say there aren't more, that's just the ones I saw. One was a Kenmore combo. Two were Westy SpaceMates stacked. These were both in the 70s and 80s. I suspect there were more Westys in the next town to the west of where I grew up, being as there was a local Westy dealer. Recently is someone with a Frigemore set stacked, a first-generation Neptune pair, an HE3(no t), and a Duet pair that arrived next door shortly before I moved. I would like to have a modern ultra-capacity frontloader for ability to do a very bulky bedspread easily (which I rarely do it anyway, so not really a big deal), and for the water heating aspect. That being said, I love the gyrations and technology of my F&P IWL12. Add water heating capability (wouldn't take much to superheat that small EcoActive fill!), and it'd be the ultimate agitator toploader. Perhaps the Oasis and upcoming Whirlpool sibling will offer a heater? Cycle time on the IWL12 can run ~2.75 hrs, with prewash, maximum wash time, 2 hr soak, and an extra deep rinse. A typical load is 40 to 50 mins. So, a long FL wash wouldn't bother me at all. I really was surprised how little water Austin's Rustinghouse takes for a fill. | ||
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Post# 121908 , Reply# 43 4/12/2006 at 23:58 (6,581 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Dimly out of the memory mists of time
It was all my older brother's fault. I recall him once admitting that he opened the door of the bolt-down Bendix in the basement, while it was washing, and caused a big flood. And THAT'S why I was forbidden to get anywhere near it. I attribute anything bad that I have done or has happened to me since then on this early FL deprivation. (LOL) | ||
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Post# 121948 , Reply# 46 4/13/2006 at 06:23 (6,580 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Interesting Stuff
It IS what you are used to that gets the results AND with every new machine you find out "whats best for you" , The debate about US v European machines is a total red herring, UK built machines where built and operated very differently to the German, Italian & Spanish machines.. The demise of these companies to Italy changed all that...we now fall in with Euro rules etc!!! All of the British designed & made machines where H&C fill, the brit boys where talking about this recently, my mums 1970`s servis FL, 9lb load, H&C fill 800spin, washed for 15yrs for a family of six, and a 40d wash took 35 mins, never used the heater unless above 60d etc...and I never remember once seeing stuff that needed washing again..so it can be done, the difference is "How the water is heated"... The MaytAsko takes 2 mins to raise the water from 40d to 50d, and uses about 50ltrs on my regular quick washes, the 95d wash take 67mins in total on quick wash ....3kw heater. I`ve just been running in a Hoover Twinny, and as a test put the drain hose from the asko into it, the tub was about half full after the completed wash n 3 rinses. When Jetcon Jon was here we put a FL hose draining into the Simpson TL and again quart full TL tub... Nowthen , the Hoover twinny has auto rinse, One 6lb load is half the Asko weight, and the water used was two Simpson TL tubs.... This debate will run and run, because of different machines we are all used to...its sad that the change to optional FL in USA has hit big debates due to the longer heating times and this issue with mega drums spinning horizontally... I did a test here with a 6kg load of wet bath towels, What a weight without spinning....cant imagine the stresses that the 9kg machines have to put up with., and all that with a sensitive balance controller.... BACK TO: The LG...Its due here in June and was talking to an industry rep, he said its a submersed element, think kettle, bubbling water...also, here`s a pic of an LG direct drive washer drum.... 
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Post# 121956 , Reply# 47 4/13/2006 at 06:56 (6,580 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 122012 , Reply# 48 4/13/2006 at 10:58 (6,580 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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advantages and disadvantages
I grew up in the 'States and know TLs very well. Have lived in Europe since the early '80s so also know FLs. Am in the 'States frequently, so also know modern US TLs... This is a discussion which is like the good old Macintosh or PC one: Whatever you want to "prove", you can. My experience, for what it is worth is the following: No, you do not wash every day in Europe. That is just plain silly. My 7Kilo washer is the same as an American 15.4lb. I wash just as often here as I did in the 'States. Yes, European FLs take much longer than TLs. They also wash much more thoroughly. Of course, a TL which ran for that long would also wash more thoroughly. The mechanical wear and tear posed by a TL is the ultimate limiting factor in their running so long. FLs use less water to get an equal amount of clothing clean. They use less detergent and bleach and enzymes, too. Best of all, since the US manufacturers stopped building high-speed spins into their TLs, even slower FLs spin clothes much dryer. This saves time and energy in drying, gets the clothes cleaner, and is better for folks with allergies. I love TLs from the 50's and 60's, but, being in a position to compare both acknowledge the technical advantages of the FLs. We will continue to argue this back and forth just like in the Apple and PC world - but can't we limit our discussion to questions that really matter like what will happen to Maytag now that those jerks from Whirlpool have taken them over? Why US manufacturers are playing the same foolish game against the Koreans and Chinese that the US car makers did in the 70's? Why Frigidaire hasn't had the brilliant idea of bringing back the Pulsators... Now those are topics worth arguing about, instead of this apples and oranges discussion. | ||
| Post# 122015 , Reply# 49 4/13/2006 at 11:17 (6,580 days old) by agiflow () | ||
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What do you hate about WP so much? | ||
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Post# 122032 , Reply# 50 4/13/2006 at 12:53 (6,580 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Whirlpool is no good
What do I hate about Whirlpool so much? Good question. When I first moved to Europe, the brand "Bauknecht" was one of the best know, higher quality brands. They, together with Philips who owned them for a while, produced a wide range of creative, durable, reparable, well-designed, easy-to-use, long-lived, environmentally friendly white goods. They were sold to Whirlpool. Whirlpool kept the brand name but changed the production to the cheapest factories in Europe. They kept the price, but lowered the quality to appalling levels. They switched the service from highly skilled, creative, well-paid and well-treated service people to poorly paid, poorly-trained bought-in people who were paid to get in and get out as quickly as possible. They...well, ok, I think I have made my point. Whirlpool deserves the worst things which can happen to them. They have destroyed so many good brands and applied all the worst aspects of modern management techniques while treating their customers and employees horribly. Let's wait a year or two. When we see what they have done to Maytag we can have this discussion again. | ||
| Post# 122625 , Reply# 52 4/17/2006 at 08:55 (6,576 days old) by rayjay (Carteret, New Jersey) | ||
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LG Washer Ggibson, If you do not want to spend the money on the steam machine, get a regular LG front loader. I have the WM2032HW for over 2 years now and love it. Ray | ||
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Post# 123089 , Reply# 53 4/19/2006 at 00:53 (6,575 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Extra Water Option Button | ||
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Post# 123097 , Reply# 54 4/19/2006 at 02:10 (6,575 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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IIRC some of the draw backs to early frontloaders were the requirement for bending to load or unload, failure of door gasket after awhile causing leaking, one way tumbling which could result in one's laundry emgerging in a tangled mess, inability to do true "soaking". That last one was a big in that until modern detergents came along with "enzyme action", quite allot of laundry was still soaked to remove bad stains and heavy soils. Finally there was the "suds" factor. Until low sudsing detergetns came on market, laundry was done in either soap or the "new" detergents, both created lots of suds. Suds are not something one wants when using a front loader. L. | ||
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Post# 123098 , Reply# 55 4/19/2006 at 02:13 (6,575 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Panthera, Well, I don't know. Maytag was well on its way to self-demolition when Whirlpool stepped in a saved it from going to a bunch of clueless bankers, or to the Chinese. I don't think Kitchenaid has suffered too badly from its ownership by WP, although I tend to prefer the older Hobart made designs. Perhaps Whirlpool is a bit more benign with domestic brands, and I was under the impression that it's not a bad company to work for in the US. I also think that GE is a far more obnoxious company than Whirlpool, what with its policy of firing 10% of its management employees every year, not matter what, and its exorbitant price gouging on replacement appliance parts. And we all know what junk GE turned out in the 90's with its self-destructing direct drive plastic tranny washers and fail-one-month-after warranty expires fridges with rotary compressors. They do seem to make OK gas and electric ranges, but nothing really spectacular. Of course, classic, older, vintage GE's are cool. | ||
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Post# 124224 , Reply# 56 4/24/2006 at 19:51 (6,569 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut) |
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And now a word from our sponsor...
Listen, I'm a Pastry Chef which means that I wear White tunics that are stained with chocolate, raspberry, blood (when I help the knuckleheads in the kitchen) and protein stains of various foods. Three years ago I took a Chocolate seminar in Aurillac and the cleanest I've EVER seen my uniforms get was out of a French Miele FL which heated the water to 90 degrees C (= 194 degrees F) after prewashing in cold water with French Ariel as the soap du jour. The whole thing took less than 1 hour and the machine was belching steam before it threw the wash water. I own a US LG that I am pretty happy with except for the fact that it doesn't/can't/won't heat the water that high because it runs on 120V and the laws of physics say you just can't run that pretty DD motor and heat the water that high within a reasonable amount of time. When Miele finally decides to market its large capacity machine that spins at 1600 RPM and offers water temperatures to 90 C, I'M BUYING IT!!!! I feel like that a-hole MC on "meet the press" but it's the easy answer--these machines have to run on 220V. PERIOD. | ||
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Post# 124237 , Reply# 57 4/24/2006 at 20:12 (6,569 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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My vintage Miele W1070 can do 200F,but can also be wired to run on 120V, with one heater leg disabled. Since the washer is mechanical timer, but the timer is not run through the thermostat,unless wash water reaches correct tiem in a certian period of time, the cycle will progress regardless. However the work around is simple. Either do a cold pre-wash, and fill the wash cycle with tap hot water (which in our building is about 130F to 140F), and allow the unit to heat from "hot" to "boiling". Or, simply "test" the water temp by moving the temp dial slightly up or down listening for the "click" telling one what temp the machine has reached. If it has not reached the desired temp before the timer moves out of the water heating phase of the cycle; merely stop the washer, reset timer to start of the heating portion of the wash cycle, and restart the machine. Since the washer heats on 1500 watts, it really does not take that much longer to go from say 140F to 180F or even 200F. This is why one so prefers mechanical timer washers, over computer controlled units. Do no think even the 120v powered W1918 units (yes, there are some out there), allow this flexibility. L. | ||
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Post# 124249 , Reply# 58 4/24/2006 at 20:59 (6,569 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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LG | ||
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Post# 124359 , Reply# 59 4/25/2006 at 10:53 (6,568 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut) |
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I have a WM-2432, at the time (two years ago) it was the TOL: 1200 RPM spin (what mattered most to me). I wanted an old-style configuration with a backsplash and the dispenser tray on top. As I've said many times on this site, I love the machine, but the water-heating issue has been the only big disappointment. And it's so unnecessary: I would have been happy to install a 220V circuit to run it properly. I am usually more amused than anything by the machines fumbling with the load to get the balance just right--I suppose it is a good design feature that protects the machine from excessive wear. I haven't had that much of a problem with it. Only once has the machine failed to continue a cycle because it couldn't balance the act. In the future, however, I'd like to be able to choose at what point in the cycle bleach gets injected. One of the only things I liked about the Whirlpool FL's is that the bleach is injected during the first cold rinse: ideal point. On the LG it is always injected for the last 5 minutes of the wash cycle, even when it's running a Sanitary (heated) cycle where the water is too hot for chlorine bleach to work properly. If the engineers at LG had been thinking about it, they would have made it so the bleach would go in during the "cool-down" finish of the Sanitary cycle. But they didn't. (Although, I will say, in my experience, the Miele's I saw in France don't even have bleach dispensers, like the Asko's). | ||
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Post# 124398 , Reply# 60 4/25/2006 at 13:02 (6,568 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Eau de Javel
As chlorine bleach is known in France is not popular for laundry. Though one can purchase it in those long sausage like tubes fabric softener once came in at shops in the United States. The French prefer to use LCB for cleaning, and oxygen bleaches for laundry, hence washing machines that heat water to 140F and above and long cycle times; both of which give oxygen bleaches their best performance. Recently with the advent of bleaching activators, wash temps can be lowered to 100F and cycles shortened (because the bleaching starts at a lower temp), without harming results on all but the most grossly stained laundry. Persil amoung other European detergents now have versions for "short" wash cycles. This is the reason one does not find LCB dispensers on Miele, Asko, or many other high end European washing machines. Miele strongly advises against using LCB in it's washers, Bosch used to have a statement in their washing machines warranty that using LCB will void said warranty. L. | ||
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Post# 124478 , Reply# 61 4/25/2006 at 18:48 (6,568 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Said: Miele strongly advises against using LCB in it's washers, Bosch used to have a statement in their washing machines warranty that using LCB will void said warranty. Question: Is this the Euro cultural thing generally against LCB, or is there another reason to preculde the use of LCB in machines that are SS upon SS? | ||
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Post# 124488 , Reply# 62 4/25/2006 at 19:10 (6,568 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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According to Miele, LCB can damage certian plastic and other components inside the washer. Bosch's had a thing with LCB because of potential damage to the SS inner and outer wash tubs. LCB is can cause damage to many materials and substances if used incorreclty and often enough. In truth front loaders that heat water to high temps do not really need LCB as oxygen based bleaches work VERY well, especially at 140F and above temps. Sanitizing laundry also can be done at 180F to 200F. It should be noted Bosch dropped the LCB warning when it's "Nexxt" line of washers came on the scene. But, IIRC the life time warranty on the SS drums was changed as well. Also IIRC, Bosch Nexxt washers have a bleach dispenser. Like many other makers of front loaders for the American market, Bosch gave up on trying to ween Amercians from their love affair with LCB. It may be just me, but seems that Clorox began a major push to promote LCB as front loaders became more common on the American scene. Especially more models that claim to offer "Sanitising" cycles which if they worked as claimed, would preclude the need for LCB. Back when M. Javel invented his "LCB", many French families of means would send their laundry to the country or some place else that still used the old fashioned methods of sun bleaching (oxygen bleaches had not come on the scene). They knew then that chlorine bleach is hard on fabrics and can cause damage, especially to linen, which is what most sheets, bedding, undergarments, nightgowns etc were made of in Europe. Cotton did not become plentiful until the United States began producing it quite "cheaply" via slave labour. Even then it was dear because of tariffs. Flax OTHO grows most everywhere in Western Europe. Even commercial laundries in France, the UK and elsewhere in Europe use oxygen based bleaches with "boil" washes, though as previously stated, modern detergents with bleaching activators pretty much eliminate the need for wash temps above 140F -160F. | ||
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Post# 124490 , Reply# 63 4/25/2006 at 19:11 (6,568 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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bajaespuma---- You don't like Tim Russert (Meet The Press)?! I love the guy! I like to see him make his more BS-spouting guests squirm. Back on topic: The most stain-free my kitchen whites get is using 65-degree cold water with powdered Tide Cold Water detergent, with liquid chlorine bleach dispensed into the first rinse (I have a Frigidaire FL'er). I always wear a full cook's apron in the kitchen and they get uber-stained with a wide variety of schmutz. Excellent results! | ||
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Post# 124493 , Reply# 64 4/25/2006 at 19:24 (6,568 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut) |
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I wasn't talking about Russert; I meant the older guy with the horn-rimmed glasses and the Boston accent. I love those shows but I keep waiting for a donnybrook , initiated most likely from the liberal woman called Eleanor. I start with a cold prewash sometimes with cold-water Tide also, but, realistically, nothing gets stuff cleaner than a final wash with almost boiling water. Learned this trick from Hattie McDaniel in "Gone with the Wind". Also learned neat trick of making prom queen dresses out of window treatments. | ||
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Post# 124501 , Reply# 65 4/25/2006 at 19:47 (6,568 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Do you mean the McLaughlin Group with John (is it John?) McLaughlin? They used to do parodies of him on SNL. I like his show, too, mostly because he's so goofy. And I love to watch Eleanor go off on Pat Buchanan. Best of all his is trademark sign-off of "BYE-BYE!" Although I'm a cold water-washing convert, I'd probably revert if my machine could heat water to 190+. That would be AWESOME. | ||
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Post# 124510 , Reply# 66 4/25/2006 at 20:22 (6,568 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Mammy Was Boiling
That laundry for another reason besides cleaning/whitening; to kill lice. Remember one of the O'Hara girls comes out to have words with Mammy because she thinks it is "indignat" the way she speaks/treats Mr.Kennedy. Mammy quips back "you'd be allot more indignat if one of those lice get on ya". Boiling laundry before modern washing machines was truly a godsend in terms it did away with some of the scrubbing/hard work. But boiling also in an era of body lice, bed bugs and god only knows what else, was a sure fire way of getting rid of the buggers. Speaking of which, ever notice no one (thank god)ever has ring worm? Nits inspections at school once were a regular occurance. With the poor offending child sent home with a note and had to wear those funny caps while the medicine did it's work. After that it was time for fine tooth combing to remove the eggs. Ewwwwww! All pillows and bed linen had to be boiled, hats that could be were as well. L. | ||
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Post# 124599 , Reply# 67 4/26/2006 at 06:19 (6,567 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut) |
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I was joking but I also remember my parents had a "cleaning lady", an amazing woman named Sarah who one day decided that my father's T-shirts were getting dingy so she plopped them all in the largest stockpot we had, set them on the stove and boiled them white. The only problem was, my amused father recalled, was that from time to time Sarah would pull one out of the pot with a meat fork to see if they had been boiled long enough. Dad's T-shirts were never whiter, but they were also never more air-cooled. Me, I stick to high temperatures and bluing. | ||
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Post# 124604 , Reply# 68 4/26/2006 at 06:35 (6,567 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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pitchfork in T-shirts | ||
| Post# 124819 , Reply# 69 4/27/2006 at 07:15 (6,566 days old) by irishwashguy (Salem,Oregon.............A Capital City) | ||
i like the interal water heater
I grew up with a TL Maytag, two of them. I never thought that they were getting clean enough.When I moved out of the house, i had an old Rolo matic,, it cleaned much better than the Maytag that my Mom has to this day. I bought the new Miele, and I can't say enough good things about it. I have just a cold water fill on it .I use the Wrinkle Free'on the senative setting, that cycle w/o a pre wash is only 56 minutes.I also know that all of the soap that I put in there, which is ont a table spoon, is all rinsed out at the end. w/o a water heater, the water cools fast and does not work as well to clean and rinse your load You do get acostomed to what you have.
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Post# 124826 , Reply# 70 4/27/2006 at 07:47 (6,566 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut) |
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One of the things I love about this subject and this site is the question of the evolution of industrial design. When automatic washers were first made in this country there were both top and front loading machines. I will never forget looking on the sides of Tide and Dash boxes and seeing the different dosage instructions for Wringer Washers, Top Loaders, Front Loaders and Hand Wash Tubs. Why did Americans "drift" towards Top Loading Machines leaving, I believe, only Westinghouse in the 70's and 80's making Front Loaders? Whereas Europeans seemed to always be solid Front Load customers? Also, it's interesting to note that when automatic dishwashers first appeared, they were all pretty much top loading machines. Our first GE 1962 dishwasher was a roll-out built-in top loader. I remember my mother complaining about having to lean over the machine to unload it, but she thought nothing of stooping to unload a later front loading model. Why did Americans "drift" over to almost exclusive front loading dishwasher designs to the point where top loaders disappeared completely until Fisher & Paykel introduced its "drawers"? Appliance design is wonderfully Darwinian it seems. Were these trends producer or consumer driven? You could argue that in and of itself, the history of US appliance manufacture is a complete refutation of "Intelligent Design". | ||
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Post# 124959 , Reply# 71 4/27/2006 at 17:10 (6,566 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Top loaders held more laundry than vintage front loaders, were less complex to design (with a few exceptions such as the Frigidaire and Philco "wave of water"), and in general had longer useful lives without problems than front loaders. IIRC most vintage front loaders only tumbled one way, though some later added reverse tumbling. This could result in a tangled mass of laundry. None had built in hot water heaters, which leads to the same problems many are having with top loaders today in terms of getting a "hot wash". Finally most American homes are quite large and or have basements, which suit large top loading washers fine. American housewives did heaps of laundry, with all those post war large families, and no one wanted to wait ages to get it done. Front loading dishwashers are a far easier to load and install under a counter than top loading ones. Hence that design won out. Again Mrs. Average Amercian Housewive spoke to the market in terms of what she preferred in her kitchen. | ||
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Post# 125095 , Reply# 72 4/28/2006 at 06:52 (6,565 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut) |
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I liked your point about basements, but top loaders didn't hold much more laundry than front loaders until they started a new step in washer "evolution" in the sixties. Your dishwasher reasoning is debatable. I remember our Frigidaires tangling clothing always. And, here's fightin' words, I don't think Mrs. Average American Housewife had hardly anyting to do with these decisions. As par for the course, I think she was told by different groups of men what she wanted/needed, and, as usual, she said, " Ok, honey". Contrary to the smiling pixies in all the advertising, I don't think she cared that much about what was still an onerous and unglamorous task. She was just glad to have some machine, any machine help with the laundry. | ||
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Post# 125314 , Reply# 73 4/29/2006 at 05:36 (6,564 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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My wild guess is that the voltage might have to do something with the American choice for the toploader and the European for the frontloader. Heating up a large amount of water in a washer is a difficult thing to do on 110 Volts, but most households in the USA had big tank waterheaters, so it was easy to fill a toploader with a huge amount of water. In Europe most waterheaters were small on demand ones, which made it more logical to let the washer do the heating of the water. No problem with 220 Volts available. And if you do let the washer do the heating it makes more sense to use a frontloader, so you don't have to heat up as much water as in a toploader. Also I guess the toploader was more convenient to the American housewife and convenience seems a more important reason to do things in the USA than in Europe. Since there was an obvious choice for the frontloader in Europe I guess there was more energy put in the development of it also. Already early frontloaders tumbled both ways (dryers do also here). Just my $0.02 Louis | ||
| Post# 125423 , Reply# 74 4/29/2006 at 16:54 (6,564 days old) by irishwashguy (Salem,Oregon.............A Capital City) | ||
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My mother bought a TL in the 60's....................... | ||
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Post# 125435 , Reply# 75 4/29/2006 at 18:08 (6,564 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Oh But She Did, Either direclty or indirectly, "Her Indoors" influenced every purchase inside her home. Why do you think all those appliance and other adverts were either directed at women and or towards men in that "X", would make the "little lady's life eaiser". A smart man soon learned it was no good buying his wife an appliance that didn't work for two reasons. One she would be stuck with the darn thing, cursing it and prolly hubby. Two hubby would never hear the end of the matter. Or there was the third reason, hubby would now have to shell out funds to either replace or repair the item. Ever wonder why so many items like ironers, and other household appliances turn up nearly mint after 50 or so years? In the case of ironers, many women quickly found out they could achieve the same results, with less palaver by hand ironing. Some items like flat work were fine, but a much of milady's ohther ironing was best done by hand. I have two ironers, three presses and even a Jiffy steamer, and still find can get my iroing done faster by hand using my ironing table. L. | ||
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Post# 125452 , Reply# 76 4/29/2006 at 18:59 (6,564 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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A smart man soon learned it was no good buying his wife an appliance that didn't work for two reasons. Make that three reasons~~ let's not forget s** as a weapon. I swear on all that is holy, I once overheard my grandmother (unbeknowest to her) say that all a woman has to do do is lock the bat-cave tight, denying bat-man access and he will buy you anything you want. I nearly died-----laughing. | ||
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