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Thread Number: 57846
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Main Wash time comparisons between new vs. older dishwashers |
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| Post# 802854 1/7/2015 at 21:36 (3,394 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US) | ||
Hello all,
Out of curiosity I decided to time my PowerClean's wash time myself with a stopwatch, and I was surprised to learn that on the Normal cycle with no options, the main wash itself is only 12 minutes!? I always knew these machines had short washes compared to most, but I thought it was at least between 15-20 minutes. Adding the PowerScour option instructs the machine to do a temp hold on the main wash, which ends up being around 25 minutes, but it also adds a full rinse before the heated final rinse rather than a purge. I know this sounds crazy, but I always sort of liked the fact that the PC cleans and rinses so well while only having one full rinse. I wonder though if 12 minutes is long enough for the detergent to do its job and for the enzymes to activate and perform correctly. So far just using Normal seems to be fine on everyday soil, unless of course it's been cemented on after a day or two of sitting. It made me wonder: how long is the main wash on newer dishwashers today on a Normal no options added cycle? I know my Maytag's is at least 30 minutes, but I haven't been able to "admire" anyone's new machines long enough to know how long other brands run. And is the 12 minute wash long enough for today's detergents to work, whether it be Cascade/Finish tabs or pods? | ||
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| Post# 802870 , Reply# 2 1/7/2015 at 23:45 (3,394 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US) | ||
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Mark - Your entire cycle is just 30 minutes? That's impressive for a newer machine. If so, that makes me feel better about using the Normal on this one. I actually did open the door and tried to fish around for any remains of the tablet, but I couldn't find the trace. I'm using Finish Quantum tablets currently, and the water actually had a little red tint to it because of the red rinse aid section. I let the machine continue through the purge and beginning of the final rinse, and I opened it again to check the water - crystal clear, and even felt squeaky clean when I rubbed the door and the wash arm, so I'm assuming the detergent is having no problem dissolving. My main concern is the effect of the detergent during that time.
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Post# 802881 , Reply# 3 1/8/2015 at 01:20 (3,394 days old) by logixx  (Germany) |
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Your entire cycle is just 30 minutes? That's impressive.
The Miele Pro models aren't just your average dishwasher. Though they look like and have all the features of the residential line, the heater draws almost 5 kW, the pump recirculates 50 gallons per minute and the Sani cycle goes up tp 185°F.
Depending on the cycle, my Bosch takes 25 to 40 minutes for the main wash. | ||
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Post# 802920 , Reply# 5 1/8/2015 at 06:54 (3,393 days old) by Chetlaham (United States) |
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Power cleans had short normal washes if the Thermal hold was skipped or water was hot enough.
Generally older machines had a short normal was of 10 minutes which grew to about 20 minutes in the 80s then to 30 minutes and eventually to over an hours on tall tub energy saver machines. These a rough values but in a nut shell they all have grown in time, even with the same mechanism. Whirlpools Dura washes started out short and grew longer, same with GE where an 18 minute wash turned to a 50 minute wash in the mid 2000s despite similar motors. | ||
| Post# 802984 , Reply# 8 1/8/2015 at 16:44 (3,393 days old) by washerdude (Canada ) | ||
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In our new kenmore for the 1 hour wash the main wash is 14:49 timed and the normal wash main wash is 30 minutes with no additional options enabled. | ||
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Post# 802990 , Reply# 9 1/8/2015 at 17:58 (3,393 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Chlorine bleach will work for both disinfection, stain removal, breaking down protein, etc.... in warm or even cold water. It will take more time than hot but nothing requiring hours to wash dishes.
Hot to very hot water is needed for washing dishes especially in automatic machines in order to ensure breakdown and dissolving of grease, fats, and oils. In the early days of automatic dishwashing detergents you were dealing with mainly phosphates, washing soda, dry chlorine bleach and some surfactants. Until modern low foaming surfactants came along with properties suited to automatic dishwashing you needed hot (140F to 160F) water in order to ensure proper removal and suspension of grease etc.... As detergents improved that temperature came down to 120F to 140F with higher reserived perhaps for "pot scrubbing". The introduction of enzymes and even better surfactants means the job certainly can be done at 120F and lower than 140F since above that temperature is when enzymes become deactivated. My GE Mobile Maid will clean very well with modern dishwasher detergents with 120F water temps. In under one hour everything is clean. However without the residual heat from blasting dishes with 140F or above water drying suffers unless you use heated. I can tell dishwasher detergents today are more powerful as loading the detergent cup *twice* (as recommended in the GE MM manual) causes all sorts of problems. Now only use a teaspoon in the first wash and fill the cup half full for the main. Probably could get away with not using anything in the prewash but never liked the idea of gunk filled water being splashed all over my dishes and inside the machine. | ||
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Post# 803005 , Reply# 10 1/8/2015 at 19:18 (3,393 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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@henene
Yes, 40 minutes max - when using the varioSpeed (Speed Perfect) mode - I almost never use the regular mode, which would probably extend the main wash to similar durations as you have mentioned. Can't comment on the Eco cycle as I have never used it since I got the dishwasher (two years ago). | ||
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Post# 803097 , Reply# 15 1/9/2015 at 15:30 (3,392 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 803103 , Reply# 17 1/9/2015 at 16:01 (3,392 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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German Dishwasher Detergents
Read somewhere the reason for German automatic dishwashing detergents being loaded with phosphates is due to quality of the water. Apparently you've got some very hard stuff in that country thus the need for phosphates.
IIRC the article was written by someone from one of the detergent makers in response to the recent changes in the USA market; that is P&G along with most others getting rid of phosphates. As with laundry detergents it is possible to formulate automatic dishwasher detergents without phosphates but it is tricky, as P&G found out when their new Cascade bombed. Again as with laundry detergent it takes several chemicals to replace just the one (phosphates) and results can be off until the formula is tweaked properly. | ||
| Post# 803112 , Reply# 18 1/9/2015 at 16:57 (3,392 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US) | ||
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In light of those responses, with the new formulas in modern detergents, are they still effective in machines that have relatively short main wash periods? Most specifically in tablet/packet variations. It seems that most all powder detergents are the companies' most basic varieties: results with standard Cascade or Finish powder have been reviewed as terrible in recent years but they would be the choice for the quickest dissolve time. The detergents that work well, such as Cascade Platinum or Finish Powerball/Quantum tabs, are the ones that are more densely packed.
I did check my machine about 4-5 minutes after the detergent cup clicked open, and I couldn't find any trace of the Quantum packet, so unless it had gotten stuck somewhere between the coarse grate and the grinding plate, I'd assume it mixes quickly. I just wonder if that 6-8 minute time after it has dissolved is long enough to be effective on a typical load of dishes without wasting detergent down the drain. Of course I can always just add the PowerScour option, or use the Heavy cycle, both of which actually temp delay the main wash to 140F, and then continue for a bit of time afterward. That puts more wear and tear on the element and the electrical components though, along with using more energy, both of which I'd rather not have to do unless necessary. | ||
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Post# 803120 , Reply# 19 1/9/2015 at 18:12 (3,392 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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In Theory
Packets should dissolve rather rapidly upon hitting hot water.
Tablets long as they are fresh shouldn't pose a problem either. Detergent makers remember the problems with Salvo and other early tabs that acted like hockey pucks and today's offerings are streets ahead of that product. Key word to remember however is "fresh". Purchased a job lot of Electrasol Tablets when they were discontinued (conversion over to Finish) since the stuff was dirt cheap. Took some time to work down the stash and the last canister's contents turned into hard little bricks. Had to whack the packet with a mallet to break them into powder. | ||
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Post# 803129 , Reply# 21 1/9/2015 at 19:14 (3,392 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Very hard water
By definition, our soft water goes up to 8.4 gpg and hard water starts at 14 gpg. How about this in the US? Are 8 gpg already considered hard water?
It is interesting that the response was that we needed phosphates because of hard water - in a country where 100% of residential dishwashers have softeners. @ murando - Four to five minutes for a Quantum pac to dissolve seems about right. @ Jerrod - I think some liquid detergents still have chlorine bleach. | ||
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Post# 803144 , Reply# 22 1/9/2015 at 20:08 (3,392 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Stand Corrected
Claim was regarding the quality of European water overall, not just Germany.
"Europe’s ADW detergents are more sophisticated—and expensive—than those in the U.S., Müller-Kirschbaum explains, in part because most of Europe’s water is harder. Tablets dominate the market, and most brands make multiple claims related to water softening, odor reduction, shine, and etch inhibition." CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
| Post# 803146 , Reply# 23 1/9/2015 at 20:22 (3,392 days old) by iej (.... ) | ||
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I have to say, I have absolutely never any issue with the results from my Bosch r any other dishwasher I've used, unless it's actually faulty or there's a technical problem like a spray arm stuck due to misloading. I wish dishwashers would detect a non rotating spray arm and beep! | ||
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Post# 803156 , Reply# 24 1/9/2015 at 20:54 (3,392 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Post# 803313 , Reply# 27 1/10/2015 at 18:56 (3,391 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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