Thread Number: 58612  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Kenmore Triple Action agitator or Dual Action?
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Post# 811650   2/28/2015 at 21:46 (3,315 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

Going to buy 1 tomorrow from SEARS. So which one is better, and by better I mean which design cleans more vigoresly? Price isn't an issue as they both are close in price. The Triple Action is around $449.

Is the Triple Action the best style of Agitator, better than Maytag or GE Agitators? I didn't notice any Whirlpool Triple Action Agitators in SEARs. I innitially wanted a SpeedQueen Agitator but it's out of my budget for now.


The other thing I wanted to ask is that all the top loading washers have COLD rinse only. Now I was always under the impression that to best extract detergent from clothes one needed warm or hot water. So how true is this?

If I connect the Mains water supply Hot water tap to the cold water inlet on the washer and then choose Cold Wash option, can I get a Hot wash & Hot Rinse? Or is there a thermostat that is linked to the Cold water Wash that will prevent this ? Is there also a thermostat linked to the Rinse cycle that will prevent a Hot Rinse?

Kenmore Model # 23102
www.sears.com/kenmore-3.6-cu-ft-t...

Thanks





Post# 811654 , Reply# 1   2/28/2015 at 22:15 (3,315 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

Yes, this has thermostatically controlled temps.  I also believe the mixing valve is such that warm has more cold water going in that hot. 


Post# 811657 , Reply# 2   2/28/2015 at 22:44 (3,315 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
This machine is mechanically identical to my 2012 Whirlpool WTW4800. Performance-wise it's an excellent washer. The agitation is slow but powerful and it rolls large loads over beautifully. The Whirlpool version doesn't have the "triple-action" agitator, but it's the same dual-action that WP has used for over a decade and it works just as well, if not better, in this belt-drive than it did in the DirectDrives. The Triple-Action model seems to be more of a gimmick, in that it simply has a spring system built in that pulls downward in resistance to clothing pushing upwards against it. From what I've seen in person, it seems to only have an inch or so of movement. It still turns in one direction to push clothing down anyway, and unless you overload the machine, I don't think the vertical action will be used much.

The water temps are dumbed down as appnut stated, and Hot will be Warm at best, Warm will be lukewarm to cool. I'm not sure about switching the hot and cold inlets, because I've never tried it. I've heard that the control board will error if switched, but that may only be on the Cabrio platforms. I do know that you can cut the cold supply to get a true hot fill without issue, as I always did that with towels and whites, and it would always fill properly to the very top of the tub.

As with warm or hot rinses being more effective, other members may be more knowledgeable on that. I've always used cold rinses, even on machines that offered warm rinses. Even both sets of grandparents taught me to use cold rinses, but I'm not sure if that was because it rinsed better or they just didn't want energy used on heating more water, but still, it's always worked fine my whole life. I believe that warm rinsing was more a method used for permanent press clothing, as the cooling down process helped to reduce wrinkling and make clothes that needed ironing an easier task. Modern detergents produced over the past 20 years or so have been designed to rinse effectively in cold water, and tout more than ever to be effective in cold washing as well, but I'm more skeptical about the latter.

My best overall advice for this machine: ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use the softener option for the rinse, even if you never use softener. The one rinse with softener will act as a normal washer, full wash-spin-full rinse-spin. The 2 rinse option will add a spray rinse at the end. Without the softener option, you'll only get a spray rinse, which is just a drizzle of water over the slowly turning load, and half the water doesn't even fall on the clothes.


Post# 811675 , Reply# 3   3/1/2015 at 00:08 (3,315 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

"The Whirlpool version doesn't have the "triple-action" agitator, but it's the same dual-action that WP has used for over a decade and it works just as well, if not better, in this belt-drive than it did in the DirectDrives. The Triple-Action model seems to be more of a gimmick, in that it simply has a spring system built in that pulls downward in resistance to clothing pushing upwards against it"

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "in this belt-drive than it did in DirectDrives".

I will occasionally wash comforters so thought the Triple Action may come in handy.
Absent large loads, is it just a normal dual acton agitator?

So would you pick the Whirlpool DualAction over this Kenmore Triple Action ?

Thanks


Post# 811687 , Reply# 4   3/1/2015 at 04:34 (3,315 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)        
My Direct Drive posted back in 2011:

cleanteamofny's profile picture


There is a difference in action!
The spring loaded action is used when an extra large load binds up at the base slowing rollover.
The extra action pulses the load freeing the jam if the load of laundry is extra heavy.







Post# 811689 , Reply# 5   3/1/2015 at 05:18 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

So, which models would you basicly consider? Whicch model is the alternative to the 23102?

Post# 811706 , Reply# 6   3/1/2015 at 08:40 (3,315 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        
they have some of these really tricked out....

yogitunes's profile picture
on most of these, even if Warm rinse was selected or available, its is Cooler than what would be delivered for the Wash portion of the cycle....

and a lot of them today, if Warm was selected, the fill for the rinse will be Cold, the spray rinse is what will come out Warm....so don't think your getting a deep warm water rinse...

heck, some wont even give you a HOT wash when selected, it may start out Hot for one minute, and then switch to warm for the rest of the fill.....and for some machines, you can select Hot, let it fill for a bit, and then manually switch to warm to give you the temp you want.....

if you really want true temps, as to what you select, your going to have to go back to Old School machines......very few today are giving you what you want and expect...even if you got a SQ, while not auto temp controlled, the valve is restricted from giving you a true Warm wash.....but it is an easy fix to give a 50/50 mix...

its almost as if were going back to a wringer machine, separate hoses and faucet set up, to fill the machine manually....

its also neat to see a Triple Action function....but there isn't much of a difference between the two....the corkscrew helps in a lot of ways compared to a straight vane.....

but there is a video that shows someone changed out to a straight vane, and for a normal load, it does nicely....







Post# 811708 , Reply# 7   3/1/2015 at 08:57 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Don't they have flowrestrictors anyway?
One could try to take out the hot flow restrictor only. Maybe this could keep the temp higher?


Post# 811711 , Reply# 8   3/1/2015 at 09:16 (3,315 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
restrictors....

some do, some don't....some have smaller/wider openings......

I took the restrictors out of my Cabrio, didn't affect temps, but it does fill faster now...that alone was worth it....


Post# 811714 , Reply# 9   3/1/2015 at 09:27 (3,315 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        
Food for thought...

pulsator's profile picture

The Triple Action Kenmore agitator with the blue auger has a base with larger fins than the non-triple action agitators of other WP made machines.


Post# 811715 , Reply# 10   3/1/2015 at 09:30 (3,315 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

Does the Triple Action Kenmore I mentioned have the 2 Agitation Wash action you see in the below Whirlpool?






On the subject of HOT wash and Rinse, I am a bit confused.

Can I get a true HOT wash and HOT Rinse by connecting the HOT water supply hose to the COLD water inlet and running the machine as COLD wash?

What Machine sold now will give me a true HOT wash?


Post# 811716 , Reply# 11   3/1/2015 at 09:34 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I guess you removed both restrictors? My idea was to remove only the hot one so the flow ratio hot to cold was shifted towards hot.
Though I thought this might work better on lower end model which do not have thermistor controlled ATC and simply determine the temperature by valve opening times, you could try it on the Cabrio just that we know if it might help as well.
This is based on murando531's statement that he can simply shut of the cold water to get a true hot wash. If the more BOL WP washers would use an NTC for the ATC as the Cabrios do, they would probably throw an error code if one line would be turned off.
And the only other way to dumb down temperatures is a timed valve operation. And if it's timed, by removing only the hot water restrictor more hot water per time would enter the machine and thus warm water would be mixed warmer.
So you could get all avaible temperatures that involve the hot water valve warmer, plus a true hot wash and a true cold wash.
So youd have:
Tap Cold by the temperature selector
Cold would be a bit warmer
Cool just as well
Warm might end up actually warm
Hot with both valves open would be like "Eco Hot"
Hot with cold water turned of would be tap hot


Post# 811718 , Reply# 12   3/1/2015 at 09:40 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

It should have 3 basic wash motions:
Short\Fast used to initially soak the laundry that floats on top and used at the end of each agitation phase before drain to push laundry away from the agitator.
Long\Fast as normal wash motion
Long\Slow as gentle motion


Post# 811724 , Reply# 13   3/1/2015 at 10:27 (3,315 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
it just seems the more we try to by-pass stuff, the more they are clogging the system, meaning they are making it more difficult for us to make changes...

some are switching out the flow restrictor valves for a full flow ones from vintage type machines...

no one trick is going to work for every machine....you have to see exactly what you have, and try a bunch of different things....these are only suggestions as what we have come across.....

I know on the Cabrio, Neptune, and Calypso, there must be water supply turned on to both taps, otherwise you will get an error code...

but nothing says that you can't turn down the COLD side to a bare trickle to adjust temps...

and there are some machines, like the Neptune, granted its not a time fill, but there is a certain amount of time to do this process, and if it takes too long, it will throw a code, LF(long fill)...

not sure also, what would happen if you flipped the hot for the cold hoses....once it passes that sensor for water temp, it may throw it out of whack.....

I removed the sensor from the Cabrio, it just popped out of this little slot, I would get either all hot, or all cold, but not a mix for a warm wash...

I would be curious to use a "Y" and tap both hoses from the HOT faucet....wont know until you try it...

depends too on what your water heater is set to.....as an example of the Cabrio, mine is set to 160F....if set to HOT, there is a 10 degree drop once it fills the machine...so even though it adds some COLD water, its still a very Hot wash...

SQ is probably one of the few that will give you a true HOT wash, there is no sensor.....but case in point, Warm is cool at best.....smaller opening on the Hot side, but a 5 minute job can fix that....I now get a 50/50 mix into mine....actually I have to cut the hot faucet back a bit....

now on the Frigidaire Gallery, all I had to do was unplug the sensor, and I get the pure temps I select.....no more auto mix....

each machine will react differently, depends on how they have them programmed...


Post# 812855 , Reply# 14   3/8/2015 at 15:23 (3,308 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

Which moves the clothes around more: straight vane single action or dual/triple action (corkscrew)?

I had assumed dual/triple action but then I saw the below video of a 'hacked' washer that is straight vane and has amazingly fast turnover.

" Hot Rod Maytag washer "
"Well here we go! A 1962 Maytag A700S, fitted with the guts of a 1971 Big Tub Maytag A806, along with a 50hz pulley and belt set-up. Watch and be amazed - and look for the surprise winning combination at the end!"






Post# 812871 , Reply# 15   3/8/2015 at 16:25 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
that's not a normal wash action for that washer.....its been upgraded.....

a dual action would give the same results in that low of a water level....again, only four vanes at work....

the Dual Action is design to aid larger loads to pull them down to where the cleaning occurs....


Post# 812927 , Reply# 16   3/8/2015 at 19:40 (3,307 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

" that's not a normal wash action for that washer.....its been upgraded.....

a dual action would give the same results in that low of a water level....again, only four vanes at work....

the Dual Action is design to aid larger loads to pull them down to where the cleaning occurs.... "

Right , but I linked to that video because I didn't think a straight-vane single action agitator could roll-over soo well.

Which brings me to the question: would a straight-vane Amana or SpeedQueen roll-over better or just as well as a dual-action Kenmore? My local BestBuy has straight-vane single action Amana agitator washer , model NTW4651BQ






......

I assume the corkscrew/dual-action would roll-over better because that is what it is touted for. While the straight-vane just moves clothes side to side?

Doesn't a dual action agitator move clothes not just side to side but up and down as it rolls over the clothes?

But does a straight-vane single action provide a more aggressive side to side movement of clothes since the vanes extend all the way up?

I would acutally get the Speed Queen if it was dual-action.

.....

So Amana straight-vane or Kenmore Dual/Triple action Agitator washer?
Is Amana a better brand than Kenmore?


Post# 812945 , Reply# 17   3/8/2015 at 20:47 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
Amana is Kenmore....or actually Whirlpool.....this is not your normal DirectDrive machine....this is a reversing motor to agitate machine....can give variable strokes for each load based on the amount of force against the motor....a small load would not get vigorous wash action that a full load would.....there are pros and cons....


here is the straight vane....watch once it changes to the long stroke...not bad turnover.....






Post# 812946 , Reply# 18   3/8/2015 at 20:49 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
and heres the Dual Action.....you can put on of these in the Amana/Admiral...both have advantages and disadvantages...







Post# 812960 , Reply# 19   3/8/2015 at 22:31 (3,307 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

" Amana is Kenmore....or actually Whirlpool.....this is not your normal DirectDrive machine....this is a reversing motor to agitate machine....can give variable strokes for each load based on the amount of force against the motor....a small load would not get vigorous wash action that a full load would.....there are pros and cons.... "

Re. reversing motor machine
Are you refering to the modded MayTag I linked to?

Can you give me the name of the YT videos you linked to or the name of the uploader?
My firewall blocks the video.

Thanks

PS
Isn't the SpeedQueen machine similar to Amana of the 90s?


Post# 812972 , Reply# 20   3/9/2015 at 00:31 (3,307 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture

Hey the dual-action video is actually mine! laughing I may or may not be wearing the red 2(x)ist's at this moment.

 

pumice - I'll try to answer some of your questions with what knowledge I have on the subjects. In response to your question about Amana and Kenmore: Whirlpool over the years has acquired many brand names. KitchenAid, Maytag, Amana, Estate, Roper, Magic Chef, Jenn-Aire; these are all appliances that are Whirlpool machines down to the core, and simply have a different label on the front, with subtle differences in cosmetics and features. They do not own Sears Kenmore, but are contracted by them to make some of their appliances. The majority of dishwashers and laundry machines are WP built, while recently there are a number of washers and dryers that are built by LG.

 

Regarding the Whirlpool/Kenmore/Amana top-load washers, they are all mechanically identical, and differ only by their aesthetics and a few features. The Amana-branded models are BOL in that they feature the smaller straight-vane agitator and black speckled basket, and have few, if any, adjustable options, such as whether you can use a deep rinse or if the machine will only spray rinse. The WP and KM machines are more similar, and are the high-end of this platform, with the white porcelain basket and full sized dual action agitator, and also give you more water level and temp options, as well as more cycles, and the ability to choose a traditional deep rinse. 

 

The washer shown in the second video that yogi posted is my WP, a WTW4800 (XQ2 I think? It's too cold to get up and look right now lol), and the video before that is agitatorjamie's, which I believe if not mistaken is the same exact model, but he replaced the dual-action with the straight vane. Myself, I love the dual.

 

While these washers look very similar at first glance to the previous generation DirectDrives, their drive systems are very different. There is no transmission, but rather a more simple gear box that mainly converts the torque from the drive pulley to power the agitator, and what drives that is a belt-connected motor that actually reverses back and forth to cause oscillation, which is why you hear the whrrrrm-whrrrm-whrrrm-whrrrm sound in the videos. From close observation, it seems that the motor tries to keep the agitation arc at around 180-200 degrees no matter the size of the load, and like yogi said, with lighter loads the motor doesn't need to provide as much torque as would be needed for a heavy load. When time to spin, an actuator switches the "splutch" to lock the tub and agitator gears together, and the motor simply spins them on their way.

 

Your choice between the Kenmore and Whirlpool models would not be bad either way, as like I said, they're identical. If the triple-action feature is appealing to you, that would be the choice I'd make. In my opinion it seems more of a gimmick, and the KM auger is smaller than WP's, as well as the spiral vanes on the WP being more broad. My specific advice, however: MAKE SURE that the machine you choose has a specific water level selector on the panel, as well as options for the rinses, which will either be labeled as things such as "One rinse w/ fabric softener" or "Deep Rinse", or like mine, "Fabric Softener On". The machines with "auto sensing" and no level selector are anything but effective, and most users complain of torn or stretched clothing because all too often the machines will use water that doesn't even cover the lower agitator vanes for a heavy load. Regarding the rinses, you'll want the model that gives you the above options and to always use the fab. softener option, even if you don't use softener at all, to get a traditional rinse that fills to the level selected.


Post# 813011 , Reply# 21   3/9/2015 at 08:40 (3,307 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

Thanks for explaining Murando531

So can I get a true HOT wash from either the Whirlpool or Kenmore?
I am planning on connecting the hot water mains hose to the COLD water inlet in the machine and running a COLD wash. Reason is so I can get a HOT rinse also.

I could just connect the cold water mains hose to the HOT water inlet of machine if it needs water coming in from both inlets to function.

I am confused a bit by the earlier replies on whether or not there is a thermostatic cutoff that will prevent a true HOT wash and a HOT Rinse.



Post# 813040 , Reply# 22   3/9/2015 at 12:21 (3,307 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

I have another question.

Anyone familiar with the G.E. dual action Agitator washers? Like the one below?
products.geappliances.com/ApplPro...

Any idea on whether they provide true HOT wash?
Hows the turnover?
Quality of the GE vs. Kenmore/Whirpool

The GE is 3.9 cubic feet capacity and the Kenmore is 3.6 cubic feet. The extra capacity is attractive, because I presume the greater diameter of the drum allows for greater movement of the clothes?


Post# 813051 , Reply# 23   3/9/2015 at 13:10 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
well if you read the instructions, it says that it has PreciseTemp, which more or less means the temps are dubbed down....it may start out with HOT, and then swtich to WARM for the rest of the fill.....everyone has a gimmick...

one dual action is no better than any other....they all have a spiral that help push the clothes down....

and 3.0, 3.5, 3.9.....its not a big deal on tub size.....theres not a huge difference outside of one may handle an extra pair of socks more than the other...and you can't compare a TL capacity tub to a FL.....


Post# 813058 , Reply# 24   3/9/2015 at 13:24 (3,307 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
there are only 2 ways to get a warm rinse

pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello there is only 2 ways you can get a true warm rinse and its with the following

a) by using or buying a vintage waher 1950 to until they went with the lid lock models or

b) by using a old direct drive washer where you set the dial after the first spin to the main wash cycle to have it fill with warm water then you set the wash dial back to rinse for the rinse portion


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Post# 813092 , Reply# 25   3/9/2015 at 15:39 (3,307 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

I just got back from an Appliance store that had Whirlpool , GE, SpeedQueen Agitator washers.

The Whirtlpool (Model # WTW4800BQ) is dual action and looks attractive but for 1 problem: it has knobs but they are not mechanical knobs. The knobs don't rotate as the machine progresses along its wash cycle. Knob stays put and a light on the eletronic panel tells you what cycle the machine is in.

I like to have the option of putting the washer on HEAVY then as the knob rotates close to the Rinse part of the cycle, I like to turn the knob back to the start of the HEAVY cycle to get extra Heavy wash time without having to start the cycle all over again with a new fill of the rub.

With the Whirlpool I an start the machine on HEAVY wash but I would need to know beforehand when the cycle is about to end because the knob does not move. So assuming the HEAVY cycle has reached near its cycle end, I could hit the Pause button but how would I get the machine to retart the HEAVY wash cycle without finishing the whole cycle? If I STOP the cycle, it might RINSE the tub?

www.whirlpool.com/-%5BWTW4800BQ%5...


Post# 813130 , Reply# 26   3/9/2015 at 19:04 (3,306 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
The GE you linked is most likely a HydroWave. Pretty much the same thing as the Whirlpool in the way it agitates.







Post# 813147 , Reply# 27   3/9/2015 at 20:54 (3,306 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
Then you would need to look on craig list in your area

pierreandreply4's profile picture
then your only option would be to look in used appliance stores or craiglist in your area for a whirlpool direct drive whirpool like this or try to find a model like this

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Post# 813157 , Reply# 28   3/9/2015 at 22:53 (3,306 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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There are no top loading washers made by Whirlpool or any of its brands that still have a mechanical timer. They're all electronically controlled. The only GE model that still uses a mechanical dial would be the most BOL in their lineup, as well as the equivalent Hotpoint.

The belt-driven Whirlpools do have longer wash times than their DirectDrive predecessors. Last I timed them, the Heavy cycle was 22 minutes of agitation, and Normal/Regular was around 18 minutes. Typical machines before that would have 12-15 minutes of agitation. One thing that helped mine handle really dirty clothes was to pause the machine in the middle of the wash to let it soak; just so long as you don't open the lid after pressing pause, the washer will sit there for eternity waiting for the start button to be pressed. If you open the lid at any point while it's paused, it will automatically drain after 5 minutes as a safety feature, and you'll have to start the cycle over.

As far as getting hot washes, these models don't throw error codes if a water inlet is turned off, so I would simply kill the cold tap to get a true hot fill. In regards to hot rinsing, I'm not sure why you'd ever want to rinse in hot, as detergents are designed to rinse better in cool water, but if it is a feature you want to "add", that would involve setup of Y-valves. I don't think the machine will care if the water coming in is hot.


Post# 813707 , Reply# 29   3/12/2015 at 23:52 (3,303 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

If I select HOT water wash on the SQ or Whirlpools, is it going to give me Tap-Hot?

Post# 814002 , Reply# 30   3/14/2015 at 22:10 (3,301 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)        

Murando351
Thanks for the info, you certainly answered some of my questions.

pierreandreply4
I can't get a used machine because I am very OCDish so it would feel icky to me.

Some more questions:

Does the Tub on the new Whirlpool/KenMore rotate clockwise/counter-clockwise during the wash cycle, like below machine does?






Can I retrofit a Mechanical Timer for the new Whirlpools/Kenmore?
Kenmore Model # 23102
www.sears.com/kenmore-3.6-cu-ft-t...


I talked to a Sales rep at a large Appliance store here and she said that if I turn off the machine while it is going through a Wash cycle or before it completes the whole cycle the machine will auto empty the Tub. Anyone here with an eletronic control Whirlpool/Kenmore , can you confirm this?


Post# 814044 , Reply# 31   3/15/2015 at 09:48 (3,301 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
all I know is when it comes to the Cabrios.....if you hit the pause button, it just sits there, waiting to be restarted.....and when you do, it just picks up where it leaves off.....

same goes if you unplug it, no matter how long, once you plug it back in, it will continue from where it left off.....

but also, if you hit the OFF pad, and then try to restart a new cycle, you will throw it out of whack.....it will drain and spin, and then you have to let it sit for about 30 minutes before you can go again.....

in this one, you can't change settings mid cycle.....once you load and set it, you have to let it complete its task....there are some disadvantages to a electronic machine.....

but nothing says you can't adapt to one of these....selecting the 'heavy' cycle and soil level, plus add in a soak and extra rinse.....basically the machine will do everything that you would set out to do manually.....



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