Thread Number: 58612
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Kenmore Triple Action agitator or Dual Action? |
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Post# 811654 , Reply# 1   2/28/2015 at 22:15 (3,315 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 811657 , Reply# 2   2/28/2015 at 22:44 (3,315 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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This machine is mechanically identical to my 2012 Whirlpool WTW4800. Performance-wise it's an excellent washer. The agitation is slow but powerful and it rolls large loads over beautifully. The Whirlpool version doesn't have the "triple-action" agitator, but it's the same dual-action that WP has used for over a decade and it works just as well, if not better, in this belt-drive than it did in the DirectDrives. The Triple-Action model seems to be more of a gimmick, in that it simply has a spring system built in that pulls downward in resistance to clothing pushing upwards against it. From what I've seen in person, it seems to only have an inch or so of movement. It still turns in one direction to push clothing down anyway, and unless you overload the machine, I don't think the vertical action will be used much.
The water temps are dumbed down as appnut stated, and Hot will be Warm at best, Warm will be lukewarm to cool. I'm not sure about switching the hot and cold inlets, because I've never tried it. I've heard that the control board will error if switched, but that may only be on the Cabrio platforms. I do know that you can cut the cold supply to get a true hot fill without issue, as I always did that with towels and whites, and it would always fill properly to the very top of the tub. As with warm or hot rinses being more effective, other members may be more knowledgeable on that. I've always used cold rinses, even on machines that offered warm rinses. Even both sets of grandparents taught me to use cold rinses, but I'm not sure if that was because it rinsed better or they just didn't want energy used on heating more water, but still, it's always worked fine my whole life. I believe that warm rinsing was more a method used for permanent press clothing, as the cooling down process helped to reduce wrinkling and make clothes that needed ironing an easier task. Modern detergents produced over the past 20 years or so have been designed to rinse effectively in cold water, and tout more than ever to be effective in cold washing as well, but I'm more skeptical about the latter. My best overall advice for this machine: ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS use the softener option for the rinse, even if you never use softener. The one rinse with softener will act as a normal washer, full wash-spin-full rinse-spin. The 2 rinse option will add a spray rinse at the end. Without the softener option, you'll only get a spray rinse, which is just a drizzle of water over the slowly turning load, and half the water doesn't even fall on the clothes. |
Post# 811687 , Reply# 4   3/1/2015 at 04:34 (3,315 days old) by cleanteamofny ((Monroe, New York)   |   | |
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Post# 811689 , Reply# 5   3/1/2015 at 05:18 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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So, which models would you basicly consider? Whicch model is the alternative to the 23102? |
Post# 811706 , Reply# 6   3/1/2015 at 08:40 (3,315 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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on most of these, even if Warm rinse was selected or available, its is Cooler than what would be delivered for the Wash portion of the cycle....
and a lot of them today, if Warm was selected, the fill for the rinse will be Cold, the spray rinse is what will come out Warm....so don't think your getting a deep warm water rinse... heck, some wont even give you a HOT wash when selected, it may start out Hot for one minute, and then switch to warm for the rest of the fill.....and for some machines, you can select Hot, let it fill for a bit, and then manually switch to warm to give you the temp you want..... if you really want true temps, as to what you select, your going to have to go back to Old School machines......very few today are giving you what you want and expect...even if you got a SQ, while not auto temp controlled, the valve is restricted from giving you a true Warm wash.....but it is an easy fix to give a 50/50 mix... its almost as if were going back to a wringer machine, separate hoses and faucet set up, to fill the machine manually.... its also neat to see a Triple Action function....but there isn't much of a difference between the two....the corkscrew helps in a lot of ways compared to a straight vane..... but there is a video that shows someone changed out to a straight vane, and for a normal load, it does nicely.... |
Post# 811708 , Reply# 7   3/1/2015 at 08:57 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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Don't they have flowrestrictors anyway? One could try to take out the hot flow restrictor only. Maybe this could keep the temp higher? |
Post# 811711 , Reply# 8   3/1/2015 at 09:16 (3,315 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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Post# 811714 , Reply# 9   3/1/2015 at 09:27 (3,315 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)   |   | |
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Post# 811718 , Reply# 12   3/1/2015 at 09:40 (3,315 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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It should have 3 basic wash motions: Short\Fast used to initially soak the laundry that floats on top and used at the end of each agitation phase before drain to push laundry away from the agitator. Long\Fast as normal wash motion Long\Slow as gentle motion |
Post# 811724 , Reply# 13   3/1/2015 at 10:27 (3,315 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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it just seems the more we try to by-pass stuff, the more they are clogging the system, meaning they are making it more difficult for us to make changes...
some are switching out the flow restrictor valves for a full flow ones from vintage type machines... no one trick is going to work for every machine....you have to see exactly what you have, and try a bunch of different things....these are only suggestions as what we have come across..... I know on the Cabrio, Neptune, and Calypso, there must be water supply turned on to both taps, otherwise you will get an error code... but nothing says that you can't turn down the COLD side to a bare trickle to adjust temps... and there are some machines, like the Neptune, granted its not a time fill, but there is a certain amount of time to do this process, and if it takes too long, it will throw a code, LF(long fill)... not sure also, what would happen if you flipped the hot for the cold hoses....once it passes that sensor for water temp, it may throw it out of whack..... I removed the sensor from the Cabrio, it just popped out of this little slot, I would get either all hot, or all cold, but not a mix for a warm wash... I would be curious to use a "Y" and tap both hoses from the HOT faucet....wont know until you try it... depends too on what your water heater is set to.....as an example of the Cabrio, mine is set to 160F....if set to HOT, there is a 10 degree drop once it fills the machine...so even though it adds some COLD water, its still a very Hot wash... SQ is probably one of the few that will give you a true HOT wash, there is no sensor.....but case in point, Warm is cool at best.....smaller opening on the Hot side, but a 5 minute job can fix that....I now get a 50/50 mix into mine....actually I have to cut the hot faucet back a bit.... now on the Frigidaire Gallery, all I had to do was unplug the sensor, and I get the pure temps I select.....no more auto mix.... each machine will react differently, depends on how they have them programmed... |
Post# 812871 , Reply# 15   3/8/2015 at 16:25 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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Post# 812945 , Reply# 17   3/8/2015 at 20:47 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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Amana is Kenmore....or actually Whirlpool.....this is not your normal DirectDrive machine....this is a reversing motor to agitate machine....can give variable strokes for each load based on the amount of force against the motor....a small load would not get vigorous wash action that a full load would.....there are pros and cons....
here is the straight vane....watch once it changes to the long stroke...not bad turnover..... |
Post# 812946 , Reply# 18   3/8/2015 at 20:49 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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Post# 812972 , Reply# 20   3/9/2015 at 00:31 (3,307 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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Hey the dual-action video is actually mine! I may or may not be wearing the red 2(x)ist's at this moment.
pumice - I'll try to answer some of your questions with what knowledge I have on the subjects. In response to your question about Amana and Kenmore: Whirlpool over the years has acquired many brand names. KitchenAid, Maytag, Amana, Estate, Roper, Magic Chef, Jenn-Aire; these are all appliances that are Whirlpool machines down to the core, and simply have a different label on the front, with subtle differences in cosmetics and features. They do not own Sears Kenmore, but are contracted by them to make some of their appliances. The majority of dishwashers and laundry machines are WP built, while recently there are a number of washers and dryers that are built by LG.
Regarding the Whirlpool/Kenmore/Amana top-load washers, they are all mechanically identical, and differ only by their aesthetics and a few features. The Amana-branded models are BOL in that they feature the smaller straight-vane agitator and black speckled basket, and have few, if any, adjustable options, such as whether you can use a deep rinse or if the machine will only spray rinse. The WP and KM machines are more similar, and are the high-end of this platform, with the white porcelain basket and full sized dual action agitator, and also give you more water level and temp options, as well as more cycles, and the ability to choose a traditional deep rinse.
The washer shown in the second video that yogi posted is my WP, a WTW4800 (XQ2 I think? It's too cold to get up and look right now lol), and the video before that is agitatorjamie's, which I believe if not mistaken is the same exact model, but he replaced the dual-action with the straight vane. Myself, I love the dual.
While these washers look very similar at first glance to the previous generation DirectDrives, their drive systems are very different. There is no transmission, but rather a more simple gear box that mainly converts the torque from the drive pulley to power the agitator, and what drives that is a belt-connected motor that actually reverses back and forth to cause oscillation, which is why you hear the whrrrrm-whrrrm-whrrrm-whrrrm sound in the videos. From close observation, it seems that the motor tries to keep the agitation arc at around 180-200 degrees no matter the size of the load, and like yogi said, with lighter loads the motor doesn't need to provide as much torque as would be needed for a heavy load. When time to spin, an actuator switches the "splutch" to lock the tub and agitator gears together, and the motor simply spins them on their way.
Your choice between the Kenmore and Whirlpool models would not be bad either way, as like I said, they're identical. If the triple-action feature is appealing to you, that would be the choice I'd make. In my opinion it seems more of a gimmick, and the KM auger is smaller than WP's, as well as the spiral vanes on the WP being more broad. My specific advice, however: MAKE SURE that the machine you choose has a specific water level selector on the panel, as well as options for the rinses, which will either be labeled as things such as "One rinse w/ fabric softener" or "Deep Rinse", or like mine, "Fabric Softener On". The machines with "auto sensing" and no level selector are anything but effective, and most users complain of torn or stretched clothing because all too often the machines will use water that doesn't even cover the lower agitator vanes for a heavy load. Regarding the rinses, you'll want the model that gives you the above options and to always use the fab. softener option, even if you don't use softener at all, to get a traditional rinse that fills to the level selected. |
Post# 813051 , Reply# 23   3/9/2015 at 13:10 (3,307 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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well if you read the instructions, it says that it has PreciseTemp, which more or less means the temps are dubbed down....it may start out with HOT, and then swtich to WARM for the rest of the fill.....everyone has a gimmick...
one dual action is no better than any other....they all have a spiral that help push the clothes down.... and 3.0, 3.5, 3.9.....its not a big deal on tub size.....theres not a huge difference outside of one may handle an extra pair of socks more than the other...and you can't compare a TL capacity tub to a FL..... |
Post# 813058 , Reply# 24   3/9/2015 at 13:24 (3,307 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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hello there is only 2 ways you can get a true warm rinse and its with the following
a) by using or buying a vintage waher 1950 to until they went with the lid lock models or b) by using a old direct drive washer where you set the dial after the first spin to the main wash cycle to have it fill with warm water then you set the wash dial back to rinse for the rinse portion |
Post# 813130 , Reply# 26   3/9/2015 at 19:04 (3,306 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 813147 , Reply# 27   3/9/2015 at 20:54 (3,306 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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then your only option would be to look in used appliance stores or craiglist in your area for a whirlpool direct drive whirpool like this or try to find a model like this
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Post# 813157 , Reply# 28   3/9/2015 at 22:53 (3,306 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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There are no top loading washers made by Whirlpool or any of its brands that still have a mechanical timer. They're all electronically controlled. The only GE model that still uses a mechanical dial would be the most BOL in their lineup, as well as the equivalent Hotpoint.
The belt-driven Whirlpools do have longer wash times than their DirectDrive predecessors. Last I timed them, the Heavy cycle was 22 minutes of agitation, and Normal/Regular was around 18 minutes. Typical machines before that would have 12-15 minutes of agitation. One thing that helped mine handle really dirty clothes was to pause the machine in the middle of the wash to let it soak; just so long as you don't open the lid after pressing pause, the washer will sit there for eternity waiting for the start button to be pressed. If you open the lid at any point while it's paused, it will automatically drain after 5 minutes as a safety feature, and you'll have to start the cycle over. As far as getting hot washes, these models don't throw error codes if a water inlet is turned off, so I would simply kill the cold tap to get a true hot fill. In regards to hot rinsing, I'm not sure why you'd ever want to rinse in hot, as detergents are designed to rinse better in cool water, but if it is a feature you want to "add", that would involve setup of Y-valves. I don't think the machine will care if the water coming in is hot. |
Post# 813707 , Reply# 29   3/12/2015 at 23:52 (3,303 days old) by pumice (Wisconsin)   |   | |
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If I select HOT water wash on the SQ or Whirlpools, is it going to give me Tap-Hot? |
Post# 814044 , Reply# 31   3/15/2015 at 09:48 (3,301 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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all I know is when it comes to the Cabrios.....if you hit the pause button, it just sits there, waiting to be restarted.....and when you do, it just picks up where it leaves off.....
same goes if you unplug it, no matter how long, once you plug it back in, it will continue from where it left off..... but also, if you hit the OFF pad, and then try to restart a new cycle, you will throw it out of whack.....it will drain and spin, and then you have to let it sit for about 30 minutes before you can go again..... in this one, you can't change settings mid cycle.....once you load and set it, you have to let it complete its task....there are some disadvantages to a electronic machine..... but nothing says you can't adapt to one of these....selecting the 'heavy' cycle and soil level, plus add in a soak and extra rinse.....basically the machine will do everything that you would set out to do manually..... |