Thread Number: 59415
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Spin Speeds |
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Post# 820164   4/20/2015 at 14:10 (3,264 days old) by liberatordeluxe (UK)   |   | |
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Is 800 rpm fast enough to get laundry sufficiently dry particularly cottons? |
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Post# 820166 , Reply# 1   4/20/2015 at 14:28 (3,264 days old) by dave886 (united kingdom)   |   | |
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800rpm isn't really fast in my opinion, 1000rpm is the minimum standard in most basic machines today. I couldn't live without my 1400rpm on my machine, which spins for a long 23mins |
Post# 820169 , Reply# 2   4/20/2015 at 14:39 (3,264 days old) by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)   |   | |
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23 minutes of spinning..... I would lose my patience, waiting for the machine to stop. |
Post# 820170 , Reply# 3   4/20/2015 at 15:03 (3,264 days old) by liberatordeluxe (UK)   |   | |
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My Bosch has variable but top speed is 1200. The older hotpoints used to be 800 rpm didn't they and from what I remember washing took a lot longer to dry than what we have now. |
Post# 820175 , Reply# 5   4/20/2015 at 15:48 (3,264 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)   |   | |
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I remember in the 1970s and even in the 80s 800 rpm was considered a high spin speed for an automatic and those washers were considerably more expensive.
Of course by today`s standarts a residual moisture content of about 70% isn`t that great, but back then it was good enough for most people to finally ditch their separate spin drier. |
Post# 820202 , Reply# 7   4/20/2015 at 18:57 (3,264 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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The time of spin has a big effect on the difference in performance between machines. The Bravos spins at 1100 rpm when set to Max Extract, but that speed is only actually acheived in the last 1-2 minutes of the final spin cycle. I've found that since the machine was replaced, and I'm doing everything I can to alleviate stress points where I can, the "Medium" spin speed tops at around 800 rpm, and adds more time to the spin. I can't tell a difference at all between the dryness levels of clothes spun at max speed vs. medium. And like henene said above, tub diameter plays a huge role in that as well. The WP top load agitator washer I have also spins at about 800rpm I believe, but there's a HUGE difference between how dry the two washers leave the load at the end of the cycle, because the Bravos has a much wider tub, and the WP doesn't spin as long as I would like it to.
In my opinion, a lower spin speed paired with a longer period of time is just as effective as supersonic speeds in a short burst, but I do strongly believe that keeping the spins slightly lower will do wonders to help bearings last longer. In the handful of loads I've done so far with this replacement machine, I've set the spin to medium, and it actually defaults to that on most cycles unless changed and the memory keeps the setting, and I've not noticed a bit of difference in dry times, but I do feel more at ease in that I'm not putting unnecessary wear on the drive system. The 1100rpm spin is quite entertaining to watch and hear, but I don't see any point in the damage it could cause overtime if it doesn't really make a big difference, and waiting a few more minutes for the load to finish doesn't bother me in the slightest. |
Post# 820224 , Reply# 8   4/20/2015 at 21:18 (3,264 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Too many variables to the OP's query to give an answer without further information.
Dry enough for cottons to what end? Hang dry? Tumble dry? Tumble dry using less energy? Damp dry for ironing? High extraction speeds in both commercial and domestic laundry serve to reduce energy use. That is with less residual moisture less heat is required by the ironers/for ironing or tumble dryers to evaporate. In much of Europe where energy costs are high and resources scarce it makes sense to increase efficiency by extracting as much water from laundry as possible. Again this makes the drying less energy intensive. However there are limits. My AEG Oko-Lavamat goes up to 1800rpms but the chart in owner's manual shows what you can find elsewhere; there is a gradual diminishing of returns in terms of remaining moisture from say 1200 to 1800 rpms. Main difference comes from 800 or less rpms to 1000 or 1200 rpms. This drop off around the 1200 mark to the point of being a one percent or so difference between that number and 1800 rpms. However there are several other factors to consider. Long high speed extraction is hard on laundry and can also be for the machine. The latter is especially true if it often does such spins with heavy and unbalanced loads. Just look at how many older front loaders with "slow" final spin speeds that are still around with their original bearings. Meanwhile plenty of high speed washers barely last five or so years. Of course there are other contributing factors such as design and build quality.... Spinning things too fast and or for too long can create creases that no amount of ironing or tumble drying will remove. It certainly makes the job of ironing more difficult as one has to shift all those creases. You notice most "no iron" shirt programs have low and or special spin designs to avoid creating creases. My Lavamat does 1200 rpms for final spin with that program but only for about two minutes. If using a condenser type dryer, then yes, you want to get as much moisture out of laundry as possible. In fact the only time one really uses the 1800 final spin with the Lavamat is for laundry going into the Lavatherm dryer. |
Post# 820264 , Reply# 9   4/21/2015 at 04:11 (3,263 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)   |   | |
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In a word Yes it can be for any fabrics but depends on how you wish to dry clothing in terms of speed, efficiency and cost!! years ago 800 was all we had and you didn't know any different, you either used a separate spin dryer or they stayed on the line longer - mind that was when any Uk produced Hoover Hotpoint and Servis did a cotton wash in under an hour and you could get it on the line by 10am - now you would have to have a wash going by 7am to achieve that...
Personally I love the large 8kg 1400 spin ratio or the 5 - 7kg 1600rpm, there is a difference on drying times and costs with lower speeds and certainly from a 1200rpm spin of any size, spinning time is also a big factor although most programmes operating on 20 23 mins are usually a vary profile spin action , tumbling whilst throwing most of the water at low revolutions, the main spin is usually around 9 mins continuous and usually building in spin speed - i.e. 1600 usually for the last few mins. I think inertia is also a key factor, the 800 spin of an 80's Zanusi with and induction motor used to slowly coast up to 800, and brush motor say from Hoover used to go from 0 - 800 in a few seconds and I think that g force always produced a better extraction by models I used with the same bedding!! Am just using a Hoover slope front Keymatic with a bevelled middle tub and slanted drum spinning @ 740rpm and its amazing how good the extraction is.!! And think of all those spinners whizzing at 2,800 we even spun woollens and delicates in them but just adjusted the time!!! Its all in the Spin, Time, Revolutions and Inertia!! - Happy Spinning. |
Post# 820268 , Reply# 10   4/21/2015 at 04:34 (3,263 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)   |   | |
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A larger radius drum doesn't have to spin as fast to generate large g-forces on the clothes. I find 1600rpm leads to wrinkly clothes but 800rpm takes two days on the clothes horse to dry. |
Post# 820270 , Reply# 11   4/21/2015 at 04:50 (3,263 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Um, diameter has much less to do with it than RPM. Velocity is squared, diameter is not. My Chinese twinnie has a very small drum (~8") but at 1300rpm gets towels dry enough to use-- or dry in 20min with a standard residential dryer-- in 2 1/2min.
With a drum roughly 3x larger, my ElectroFrigiWhite FL @800rpm takes twice as long to dry the same load. However, for longevity the machine is programmed only to spin top speed for the last 2min out of 6. But see 'twinnie' above. 1/3 the diameter, half again the speed, almost same time at top speed, twice the results. Of course, the twinnie can be manually balanced such that strain is minimal (it ain't rocket science, becomes intuitive). A fullsize TL can also be manually balanced if needed. A FL can be manually redistributed after waiting for the door to unlock but the results are hit/miss as the machine will repeat the distribution portion and may make the same mistake again. |
Post# 820287 , Reply# 12   4/21/2015 at 07:02 (3,263 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Spin Speed is by far the most important factor, then comes diameter of the tub, and finally the length of the spin cycle.
Hi Andrew, the main bearings will not be hurt by really fast spin speeds nearly as much as your dryer will running longer trying to dry wetter clothing.
In the repair end of things we basically NEVER see bad bearings in a washer unless the water seal failed and water got into the bearings.
The single biggest reason for water seal failure in almost any washer is mineral, scum, and other buildups around the seal area. This is ALWAYS caused by bad washing practices that leave all this crap behind. It can also be caused by running the machine with little or no detergent in the water, which is a reason to avoid over rinsing clothing especially if your water is not completely soft. |
Post# 820304 , Reply# 14   4/21/2015 at 10:56 (3,263 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)   |   | |
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Here is a handy little nomograph which is nice if you want to skip the math. This came from a site discussing relative G-force of laboratory centrifuges so the high end of the RPM scale is HIGH.
The formula I always used is: G-Force = 1.12 x R(radius in mm) x (RPM/1000)^2 Indeed increases in both Radius and RPM increase G force, but RPM more so.
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Post# 820316 , Reply# 16   4/21/2015 at 12:35 (3,263 days old) by aquarius1984 (Planet earth)   |   | |
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Post# 820407 , Reply# 19   4/22/2015 at 04:27 (3,262 days old) by robliverpool (england Liverpool)   |   | |
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Post# 821485 , Reply# 21   4/29/2015 at 19:33 (3,255 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Post# 821541 , Reply# 22   4/30/2015 at 10:23 (3,254 days old) by thefixer ()   |   | |
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Well, the ubiquitous Whirlpool direct drives only spin at about 650rpm as does my 13 year old GE and they get the water out just fine. |
Post# 821559 , Reply# 23   4/30/2015 at 14:41 (3,254 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Which are or at least thought to be infinite, high final spin speeds haven't mattered as much say compared to Europe. Once clothes dryers became the norm for most households excess moisture was just "baked" out of laundry.
Our local Laundromat just got refitted with new SQ front loaders that give a much better extraction. Previous units left some items very wet IMHO. Indeed have often said things spun in my Miele and taken to dry finished faster than loads washed there and then dried. |
Post# 821627 , Reply# 24   5/1/2015 at 03:49 (3,253 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 821749 , Reply# 26   5/2/2015 at 10:06 (3,252 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Condensing dryers are just slower than vented ones - that's just their nature.
Whether vented or condenser is more efficient depends on whether you mean a regular condenser dryer that uses cold air or a modern heat pump condenser dryer. The regular (air) version is probably always the least efficient. Vented dryers use a little less energy. Heat pump dryers are, despite their long cycles, the most efficient. Of course, there are many variables: a normal condenser gives off hot air that could help heat your house, a vented dryer can suck out AC'd air etc. etc. And if you have a gas dryer, it might be even cheaper than an electric heat pump dryer. |
Post# 822847 , Reply# 28   5/10/2015 at 19:54 (3,244 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)   |   | |
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710 rpm for my SQ top loader. A full load in the dryer is done in an hour, partial loads dry faster. If one line dries spin speed ought not matter all that much. |
Post# 822858 , Reply# 31   5/10/2015 at 21:33 (3,244 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 822864 , Reply# 32   5/10/2015 at 23:51 (3,244 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Maytag, Hotpoint and Frigidaire all had "ventless" condenser dryers back in the 1950's. The first two were water cooled and the last used the same air/condenser coil system found in European (non-heat pump) condenser dryers today. The Frigidaire only extracted 50% (give or take) of he moisture according to CR, the rest was sent into the room.
By the 1970's or sooner no American appliance manufacturer offered condenser dryers of any sort. But in the 1980's or early 1990's you started to see imports of European versions by Asko, Miele, Creda, Malber, Equator and maybe a few others. Malber and Equator used water cooling systems, and the rest closed condenser coil systems. As to why condenser (non-heat pump units) take longer and consume slightly more energy than vented dryers is a simple matter of physics and design. With a vented dryer a constant flow of heated and dry air replaces the moisture laden air that is sent out of the dryer. This results in slightly faster drying times. OTOH condenser dryers are like air conditioners or refrigerators with only "half" a cooling system. That is they rely purely upon the difference between ambient room temperature air and what is inside the dryer to remove moisture. Because the air circulating is often somewhat still moisture laden it cannot pick up as much when it returns to the clothes. Much depends upon the climate/air temperature and humidity levels of the place where the condenser dryer is located. It comes as no surprise that condenser dryers are popular in Northern European countries where outside venting isn't possible. During the colder months those countries provide the ideal climate (cool to cold) so the dryer can take in such air and thus "condense" more moisture out of a load of laundry. OTOH during a hot humid NYC summer, or really any place where it is warm to hot and humid a condenser dryer will take ages to finish a load if it can complete it at all. You can get good results by turning on the air conditioner (provides that aforementioned cool and dry air), but then you are not only using energy to dry laundry but to cool the house and make the dryer work. Can only use my AEG condenser dryer from about November to March or early April. Once outdoor temps begin to climb into the high 50's or above it just isn't worth the bother. As it is my "compact" Whirlpool portable will dry a full load faster than the condenser dryer. Being as all this may again condenser dryers weren't about energy efficiency from a start. More how to solve a problem of using a tumble dryer where venting wasn't possible. Case in point many new apartment developments in NYC are featuring laundry facilities with condenser dryers. This is mainly because the laundries are being located where access to an outside wall (for venting) isn't possible. When you are converting a former Verizon, Woolworth, MET Life, building and or dealing with other issues involving creating apartments in the City you have to think outside of the box. All this being said condenser dryers do leave things with a wonderful scent. They also leave terry towels and other items more fluffy and soft than vented dryers IMHO. That however in no way endears them to me that much more. |
Post# 822891 , Reply# 33   5/11/2015 at 05:55 (3,243 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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One has a WP/KM dryer with wheels? So does this one. If one accounts for its smaller capacity (rather than cramming 18# all at once), one finds drying times quite satisfactory.
Sure a 'full' load takes 2x 40min, which is only a practical disadvantage if one's time is more valuable than electricity of which it uses less than half (per min). Since one (first person) moved into a goobermint geezer compost heap which disallows private laundry gear, one (third person) could acquire the 1984 Lady Kenmore for a donation to the antihistamine fund plus shipping. |
Post# 822920 , Reply# 34   5/11/2015 at 10:15 (3,243 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Post# 822922 , Reply# 35   5/11/2015 at 10:25 (3,243 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 822982 , Reply# 36   5/11/2015 at 19:33 (3,243 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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When CR tested dryers in the late 1950's the two water cooled condenser dryers took 47 minutes to nearly one hour to dry an average eight to ten pound wash load. They also used copious amounts of water to do so.
OTOH gas and electric dryers at best only took 27-30 minutes to do the same, with the worst nearly as bad as condenser dryers at nearly 47 minutes. Fastest dryers were those with "Speed" in their brands/names such as the offering by Lady Kenmore and Whirlpool (IIRC). Two factors; final spin speeds of both top and front loading washing machines of the time were poor compared today. You also had a good many homes still using wringer/semi automatic washing machines. So even with a "hot" dryer you still had on average more moisture to evaporate out of laundry than today. The other thing and this is something I didn't know previously is that many early dryers didn't offer venting to the outside and or it was an option. Plenty of machines simply spewed lint and moisture laden air right into the same room as the dryer. Unless a fresh supply of cool make up air was allowed into the room one assumes drying times may have suffered. The best and even middle of the line condenser dryers are better sealed than those of the past, but they still will take a quarter to twice the time of a vented dryer to accomplish the task at hand. |
Post# 823961 , Reply# 38   5/18/2015 at 02:35 (3,237 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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