Thread Number: 59470  /  Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
Thoughts on the Goodman GMSS96060 furnace
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Post# 820677   4/23/2015 at 19:13 (704 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

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Did not really expect to have to run it as much as I have however we're in the late April freeze here in PA and she's getting a good workout.

Having assisted my uncle years ago in his HVAC business, I got some exposure to the basic concepts and even helped in teardown of furnaces, helped charge and repair central air units and even did work on window units. Most of his work was residential some some light commercial. He was a Rheem/RUUD fan, not sure where he stands now.

As such, one thing I learned on a successful HVAC, regardless of furnace brand or reputation, is installation, installation, installation. This includes following installation instructions but also correctly sizing the unit to the needed home taking into consideration ductwork layout, placement, size and the like.

Being that my first home is new construction, we can and should assume the layout for the vents and return air was properly planned and sized so as to avoid hot spots or drafty areas. Sufficient return back to the air handler is key to keeping the air moving and not "piling" up in a given area

Thus far, my observations are on point, the HVAC contractor sized the vents and return air properly. In fact, each bedroom and the hallway has two return air vents; on on the floor and a closeable vent close to the ceiling. You can probably see these in some of my pix. Combined with the Aprilaire 413 collapsible filter to provide very good filtering capability, I can have my bedroom door close if I have it cracked open say 4 inches and have the furnace kick on. I found a seller on Amazon that prices them at 34/2 in a box. Already have them on order.

The thermostat is Aprilaire. Non programable, backlit when a soft touch button is pressed. I had to calibrate it for the on/off cycles as out of the box, it allowed too much lag time on the off part of the cycle and I would notice it being quite cool before it called for heat. Now it is spot on with reasonable cycle times and more even warmth. We'll see how this works when the A/C season comes on. It makes a very slight click when it calls for heat and also clicks when the temp is satisfied. No drama here. It also has a circ mode where the fan will come on 20 minutes after the furnace has come on, run for 10 minutes, then go off, and repeat. This is to ensure near constant movement of air to the Aprilaire filter to keep it clean. I guess. I don't really use it right now but perhaps I will find a use in the future.

Now on to the furnace.

It's an interesting beast and the first hi eff unit I have owned. My condo had an 80's era Heil-Quaker (branded Whirlpool) that had a metal flue and probably had a carbon footprint the size of King Kong. But it worked. For 16 years, each winter, it reliably provided heat. In fact, I never had a service call the whole time I lived there.

The Goodman OTOH, is much smaller in physical size. It has an interesting startup. First the t-stat calls for heat. Then a smaller blower comes on to do the venting to the outside. Then a slight click and the burner lights up. After a period of time, the main blower kicks on, out comes nice hot dry air from the ceiling vents. Once the t-stat is satisfied, burner kicks off but fan continues to run to extract all the heat from the heat exchanger. Then it goes off. It does not, like the unit in my condo, come back on to get more heat out. Once off, it stays off until the next cycle.

It is a single stage, fixed blower speed unit that is rated at 96% AFUE. Whatever that means! What I marvel at, and still cannot get over, is my flue pipe out is a 2 inch PVC pipe! that's it! that's what sticks up on my roof. I cannot believe that all that heat which is generated and all it needs is some doggone plastic for venting. Blows me away. Not that I am complaining, but totally amazed at how it works. Rated at 60,000 BTU, it heats 1047 SQ of living space. Garage not included in that sq ft area!

Now for the bad part. This thing is laden with electronics. I gave up studying the repair manual for this beast. I mean it even has a controller board for the main blower. And a host of other relays and limit switches and probably more diodes than an 80's Atari VCS. I can only hope they are more reliable and serviceable than what I have read about on washing machines. I have no illusions that when something breaks, it will be expensive to fix. Let's hope Goodman sourced decent components (face it, all they make is the cabinet and heat exchanger, all the other bits and pieces come from someone else).

It also has not one but two condensate drain lines. I was like, WTF is causing water to run into my drain in the floor when I'm not running the A/C for god's sake? back to forums and research and I learned that this is a condensing unit, meaning it has a secondary heat exchanger that wrings even more heat out and in the process, condenses the air and voila, water is extracted out. I read more than I probably care to admit but I felt it was a good study so I understand what I have and not waste time and $$$ calling for help when it is running properly.

Thus far, it seems to work well. I guess. I can't say for sure because we're not in a dead of winter situation here so the actual test, if you call it that, is not really a tough one. The house seems to hold heat well and I don't notice excessive cycles even with the t-stat adjusted. The master bedroom is probably the coolest part and I'm talking 2 degrees difference. Literally.

The furnace is the only gas appliance I have so the gas bills will reflect 100% of the cost of running it and nothing else.

Post# 820684 , Reply# 1   4/23/2015 at 20:52 (704 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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You thought out setting the system out well with proper return vents and placed right. I am not familiar with the Goodman brand. My niece has a new Rudd natural gas furnace that works perfect and is suprisingly quiet, because it was installed right like yours seems to be. It intakes air and exits flue gas thru plain pvc pipe thru her basement wall to outside

Post# 820708 , Reply# 2   4/24/2015 at 01:38 (704 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

I think the electronics in furnaces in the past 10 years have been fairly reliable. Our second floor Trane furnace is going on 7 now, it was the TOL 2 stage variable speed 80% unit of the time and therefore is laden with electronics too. My grandmother has a same aged 92% BOL Trane furnace that has been trouble free too.

I haven't heard of anyone I know having issues with various other brands either. Back in the 90s there were lots of issues with electronic controls not lasting on furnaces.

Oh and I enjoyed your detailed and thorough posting about your HVAC system. HVAC is something I've always been very deeply interested in so I always appreciate it when someone talks the nitty gritty.

Post# 820733 , Reply# 3   4/24/2015 at 06:09 (703 days old) by retro-man (nashua,nh)        

I have 2 American Standard gas furnaces and a/c units. These are going on 9 years now and no electronic failures. Have always worked very well and are quick responders. The only issue was with our power company switching lines on the pole out front and we got a power surge. Blew out the main mother board and aux board on one of the units. Don't know why just one and not both. Both boards were replaced and only took about 10 minutes. Price was around $300.00 for both boards. This was no fault or defect of the units, but the power company who paid for the repairs. So I guess they make them better now than 10-15 years ago.


Post# 845160 , Reply# 4   10/10/2015 at 20:42 (534 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Well now is the time

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for it to really get a workout. Just replaced the filter so I am ready for a winter season. I thought about having my HVAC guy come out and give it a go over but nah, it is not even a year old.

Time will tell how well it holds up.

Post# 845186 , Reply# 5   10/10/2015 at 22:18 (534 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

I have read online that Goodman heat pumps are pretty good, not sure about their gas units. Unfortunately I have a forced air electric furnace, but at least it's better then baseboard.
There are Forums just like here for HVAC with smart folks that can answer questions and help. I have a nice programmable touch screen Honeywell t stat that is fully configurable for the system its in and keeps it within a degree of the temp set.
Want to go a heat pump someday seeing how I have the runs under this manufactured home, such as they are. I think gas would be too much work and expense to install but its cheap here.
I had to replace the 12" right angle ducts and the insulated plastic flex duct that connects both halfs of the ducts.
Cost me about 200 in parts and a weekend under the house, faster and cheaper then paying a HVAC guy to redo it as I have done furnace liners and stuff at work and have most of the tools needed.
Anyways, hope it works well and lasts a long time. All 90 percent units are so efficient and cool once the exhaust comes out they only need the plastic intake and exhaust so most times they run it sideways with a slight drop so the water doesn't back up the pipes out the closest wall to the furnace.

Post# 845343 , Reply# 6   10/11/2015 at 18:21 (533 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
I've seen 50-50 more or less

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on forums dartman with praises and excoriations regardless of brand. Trane seems to have the most loyal; Goodman and Amana seem to garner the most negative reviews.

Bear in mind, Goodman will sell to anyone with a room temperature IQ and a heartbeat somewhere in the 80's. That does NOT mean said purchaser is even remotely qualified or capable of installing it correctly. I have seen many a youtube vid of a Goodman 'hack" job that had to be redone.

Contrast that with Heil, Tempstar, Ducane, Carrier, et al who only sell to licensed HVAC blokes. Far fewer half ass installs however an HVAC patch on one's sleeve is not indicative of quality installs.

All I know is I am reducing my carbon footprint, getting along better with greenies and avoiding the wrath of algore by running a 96% AFUE furnace.

Post# 845383 , Reply# 7   10/12/2015 at 01:19 (533 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

Well the things have to be installed and setup properly like said or they won't last or work right. Think the guy my boss knows uses Rheem heat pumps and I've seen the same type of reviews for their equipment but same thing if its installed by a competent shop they should be fine. His shop gets great reviews so might call him next time some money breaks free and see what kind of deal he can make me.
Sounds like a good tech installed yours so should be fine but its kinda like my new HE washer, reviews are mostly good but who knows how long it will really last before I have to fix something.

Post# 859501 , Reply# 8   1/1/2016 at 18:24 (451 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
First real gas bill

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from Nov 9 to Dec 9 was $45.96 @ Price-to-Compare Commodity $2.0667 per MCF.

Delivery Charge
3.3 MCF @ $6.5697

Post# 859546 , Reply# 9   1/1/2016 at 23:26 (451 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Do your meters actually read out in MCF? Ours read in CCF, and MCF is new to me. Our utility bills in Therms though.

From 11-18 fo 12-19 we used 155 therms and it was about $80. Gas is stupid cheap this winter for us.

Post# 859589 , Reply# 10   1/2/2016 at 08:13 (450 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Good question gusherb

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it is a dial meter and I don't really know the nuances of it. Only thing that irritates me is the last 3 bills have been "estimated" as opposed to meter read. I suppose I can do a reading and call it in but.................I feel all my utility bills should be based on what I actually use, not what they "think" I will use.

Post# 859717 , Reply# 11   1/3/2016 at 01:22 (450 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

Finally got some cold weather and a strong east wind here. We have equal pay so bill this month was 124 bucks and we are 24 bucks on the good side seeing how most of last year was very mild.
They give us a graph of electricity used for every month for a year so we can compare how good or bad we did.
This house is way tighter and better insulated then my old long term rental so even though it is way bigger its cheaper to heat.
Sounds like your new furnace is doing great and gas is cheap, wish we had it, or that heat pump I want to get someday.
Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll slightly drop our bill.
Off topic but our last mortgage payment for the year showed up and we overpaid on the escrow/PMI so we got $62 back and mortgage went down a bit :-)
I'll take all the money savings I can get no matter where it comes from.

Post# 859865 , Reply# 12   1/3/2016 at 18:47 (449 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
I got an escrow refund too

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I also applied for the Homestead tax relief. I think they send you a refund check of sorts but no permanent reduction in tax bill. Unfortunately.

Post# 860114 , Reply# 13   1/4/2016 at 21:00 (448 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
well going to single digits tonight

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Gonna see of 60K BTU will carry the freight.

Post# 860125 , Reply# 14   1/4/2016 at 21:36 (448 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

You should only need half that even in single digits for an efficient house your size. The downstairs here with lots of glass and a bit more square footage has a 60k furnace and it runs in first stage at 40k down to 0 degrees.

Post# 860126 , Reply# 15   1/4/2016 at 21:40 (448 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
So far so good

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tstat on 66. Electrowarmth heated mattress pad on 4. bed should be warm and toasty.

Post# 860500 , Reply# 16   1/6/2016 at 23:57 (446 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

We set our smart stat at 66 during the day too, blankets and sweaters are cheap, and we have heated small blankets for our favorite chairs and pretty sure I have one for my bed I never use. I have a bunch of the old od green arny wool blankets for my bed and to protect the furniture from the parrot and me.
At night we set it at 60 and that stat keeps it within a degree of the target temp.

Post# 860560 , Reply# 17   1/7/2016 at 11:48 (445 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
I keep it on 66 at night

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69 during the day when I am at home.

Post# 860630 , Reply# 18   1/7/2016 at 21:00 (445 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

If we get a more efficient setup maybe we'll up the temp during the day but trying to keep as much of are very hard earned money as we can. When mom and step dad come over we crank it up, he's got all kinds of problems and is cold all the time.
I kinda like being very cool at night as hate getting too hot and easy to ad a ugly green blanket if I get cold.

Post# 860635 , Reply# 19   1/7/2016 at 21:30 (445 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
One of the best

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investments I made was an Electrowarmth mattress warmer. I had electric blankets as a kid, but nowadays they are all made in China and I do recall they warmed you up but not below.

Electrowarmth units are not cheap but I have a 17 inch thick pillow top mattress that seems to trap cold like no tomorrow. As I have aged, I like a cold bed less and less in the winter. This unit is a lifesaver for me. As a kid, it didn't bother me too much.

With the electrowarmth unit, I can get down to 66 at night, run the Vornado as my sleeping aid, and still stay warm.

Peoples will be doing a meter reading Jan 12. So my billing will be from Dec 11 to Jan 12, capturing a somewhat warm Christmas with a recent cold snap.

The Goodman is the only device that uses gas so my bill will be 100% reflective of the cost to heat my abode.

Post# 861324 , Reply# 20   1/12/2016 at 03:42 (441 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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Waterbeds are nice on cold winter nights too....I love mine!

Post# 861882 , Reply# 21   1/14/2016 at 19:08 (438 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
latest bill

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From Dec 9 to Jan 12. Captured the warmer than norm Christmas week and the cold snap we recently had

Customer Charge - 1 Month $15.06
Price-to-Compare Commodity $2.0652 per MCF 9.50
Delivery Charge
4.6 MCF @ $6.5696 30.22
Demand (Capacity Charge) $0.7174 per MCF 3.30
State Tax Surcharge Cr .03
Total Current Charges $58.11
Total Account Balance $58.11

Post# 861905 , Reply# 22   1/14/2016 at 21:14 (438 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Ours will be coming in around the 20th and I expect it to be substantially higher given the recent cold snaps and the next one coming, supposed to be -4 Sunday night. I forgot how cold air pours through anything that's not perfectly sealed when it's below 20 out, had to put rugs against the doors when it got below 10 as they're a bit on the leaky side (the only weak point in this house), but there wasn't a breeze blowing through or anything it was quite comfortable at 70 and even more so at 72.

Post# 861907 , Reply# 23   1/14/2016 at 21:32 (438 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

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I recall living in a vintage 70's mobile home how many cracks and leaks made themselves known when the temp dropped to below zero and the wind howled. Fortunately we heated with wood back then so there was no fuel bill per se.

We've had some rather blustery winds up here but so far the house seems pretty tight. While the Simonton windows are builder grade, I have no leaks to speak of. They ain't fancy but they keep warm air in and cold air out.

I also insulated all exterior wall outlets with Frost King foam outlet sealers. The curtains I got at JC Penny have some insulating quality, but not much.

The Larson storm door protects the front door and keeps cold air out. I also out some frost king felt insulation all the way around the frame. That door closes TIGHT now!

2x6 walls and R38 in the attic area are pluses also.

Depending on how the rest of January goes, I would expect a bigger bill next month. But the gas bill is furnace only so I can get a true measure of what is spent each month to stay warm.

Post# 861914 , Reply# 24   1/14/2016 at 22:21 (438 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

One thing I miss about the old furnace we used to have was how hot it ran, and because of that the floors anywhere that ductwork was directly underneath got nice and toasty, which was a large portion of them because there's alot of ductwork in the basement. With the new furnace running about 20-30 degrees cooler than the old one it has to be real cold out where it's running non stop for the floors to get that warm anymore.

The humidifier I installed back in November or so has helped out tremendously, I haven't woken up with a sore throat once nor have I shocked myself on anything once either. It has one of those auto controls where it adjusts RH according to temp to keep the windows from condensating real bad, in the 30s it keeps it at 40% inside and 35% at 20 degrees.

Post# 862090 , Reply# 25   1/15/2016 at 19:35 (437 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        
manufactured homes

My house is a manufactured and a good sense home so it has pretty good insulation. The electric panel actually has the rvalues of all the wall, ceiling, and floors.
They also put builder grade Alpine windows in here during the rehab and they have a lifetime warranty and keep the place quiet and warm. Cei!ing is r38, floor r33, walls r21, windows were u35 and I'd think new ones are better.
The newer mobile/manufactured homes are so much nicer then the older ones, but they still use thin cheap drywall and components compared to a stick built house.
Very happy with how much house I got for the money I could afford, and I can upgrade things as extra money shows up like I've been doing with my tax refunds.

Post# 862426 , Reply# 26   1/17/2016 at 20:28 (435 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
I agree dartman

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Manufactured homes are light years ahead of what they used to be. Sounds like yours is very well constructed. I looked them up on their website. Impressive, especially the copper plumbing.

The Goodman gets another workout tonight, Low temp down to 5 above with 15-25 MPH winds. Down to 2 above tomorrow night.

Post# 862443 , Reply# 27   1/17/2016 at 21:16 (435 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Low tonight is -3, currently 2 above. Heat is on 72, downstairs furnace is running continuously with occasional cycling up to 2nd stage. Wind is howling with gusts up to 23 MPH, my northwest facing bedroom wall is like ice right now.

Post# 862449 , Reply# 28   1/17/2016 at 21:42 (435 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
what furnace do you have

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Post# 862453 , Reply# 29   1/17/2016 at 22:01 (435 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Trane XV95 downstairs and XV80i upstairs.

Post# 862460 , Reply# 30   1/17/2016 at 23:51 (435 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

Well my house has PEX pipes and one of them was leaking at the 90 in the wall that feeds the washer. Found it early when I was under the house in the crawl space looking for a bad cable wire. The whole floor has insulation inside a plastic liner with the pipes and heat ducts inside it so if there's a leak its hard to find till the insulation and plastic fills up with water.
Luckily they gave me a year of home repair insurance with closing so I used it rather then do it myself.
Cost 60 bucks copay and was fixed 2 days after I called.
Hadn't been leaking long so drywall and framing was all fine. Nice thing about pex is its easy to deal with, tends not to split open if it freezes, and like that. I even have heat tape already installed onto the main incoming water line with a outlet on the top of the crawl space by a vent that includes the main shutoff valve. I need to redo the shutoff someday as the rehaber did a lousy job cutting out the old one and putting in the new one, it barely seeps where he did a crooked cut and put the crimp too close to the cut.
Moms house is a 90 manufactured and some of the pipes in the wall are copper but underneath is pex as well and she just had the pipe feeding the second bathrooms toilet crack.
Lucky for her her house had the option to install shutoffs for all the pipes leading to fixtures. She didn't opt to have them added but the pipes still have drop downs designed to be easy to cut out and add the shutoffs, they also have threaded stoppers they took off and left under the house when they were told to just connect everything directly. I was able to unscrew the adapters and put the caps back on the pipes which shut off the water till she got a real plumber out to fix it.
Hers was leaking so bad you could hear the water running and all the plastic wrap and insulation was soaked. They ended up replacing all of it and hard to say how long it took for all the water to evaporate.
Hoping mine has extra shut offs because there are access panels that say electric and plumbing on them but not going to crawl under there and drop one till its warm and I feel like it.

Post# 862593 , Reply# 31   1/18/2016 at 15:20 (434 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
2 furnaces wow

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how big is your place?

Post# 862639 , Reply# 32   1/18/2016 at 18:51 (434 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

3,200 sqft. Pretty efficient for its size after putting some effort into it. Heating isn't cheap but it's been quite reasonable since going HE on the downstairs furnace, plus we don't like to be uncomfortable so the heat stays on.

Post# 862657 , Reply# 33   1/18/2016 at 19:48 (434 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
What is a typical gas bill?

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Does it carry the freight on these cold days?

BTW 9 here now, down to 2 above with wind chill of -20

Post# 862676 , Reply# 34   1/18/2016 at 20:52 (434 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Gas bill this December was $89.18 and used 159 therms. Last January was $253.31 and we used 307 therms. Last January was a typical cold January and December was pretty mild.

Downstairs is 1,850 sqft, furnace is 60,000 BTU's, it runs continuously in first stage at these temps and cycles up to second stage periodically. It holds at 72 just fine down to -15 outside. Upstairs furnace is so oversized that I locked it to 1st stage and it will never run continuous even on the worst days. The downstairs furnace is currently running continuously in 1st stage, set at 72 and its 5 degrees outside. I normally keep it on 70 when its a bit more mild out.

Post# 862679 , Reply# 35   1/18/2016 at 21:00 (434 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Not bad

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considering the size of your place. Last winter in the condo, I had a 157.00 gas bill. I can't recall the sq foot precisely but it was a bit under 1000 sq foot with a Heil/Quaker furnace manufactured in the mid 80's. Due to the 2 story layout, I had to run it about 71 downstairs to stay remotely comfortable whilst upstairs it would sometimes hi 75 or so. One of the reasons I bought this place; single level slab on grade construction.

I think the next bill will be much more indicative of the real climate around here. I'm running a Delonghi oil filled heater in the garage right now to protect the utility tub faucet (garage, per code, is not heated). Garage temp is just under 50 degrees and temp dropped to 6 since last post but I think the wind has died down a bit.

Post# 862681 , Reply# 36   1/18/2016 at 21:06 (434 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Deja vue

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Here's the unit next to where I lived for 15 years. A female state cop moved in as I was moving out. Looks like she's moving out too.


Post# 862684 , Reply# 37   1/18/2016 at 21:16 (434 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

I'm happy with the bill considering the thermostat is never below 70. It used to be a different story with the old slightly oversized 80% furnace though, there was a winter that the gas bill was over $400 and the therms used was over 450. Not sure how it got so out of hand that one January but I never let it happen again. The new properly sized 97% furnace makes a huge difference in the bill and in comfort.

Post# 862738 , Reply# 38   1/19/2016 at 01:10 (434 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        



I'm heating a bit larger place with one furnace, and at that temp it does not run all the time.  I do use CAC, that is a big help, but even last year at -15 or more the second stage on my Lenox furnace rarely kicked in.  Mine is 97% efficient too.


I have added insulation to the attic, not the R50 now recommended, I used Tyvek when I resided the house- but a big chunk is brick so not much I can do there, added storms on most of the windows, but only R13 in the walls - overall I'd call it moderately tight.  We pretty much get the weather Chicago gets here in mid MI too.  I looked and my Dec gas usage was $98 for 15.7mcu.

Post# 862740 , Reply# 39   1/19/2016 at 01:19 (434 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Sounds like a size down in furnace would be a good idea for next time.

The way mine operates is how they're all supposed to operate, sized properly so second stage actually comes on in extreme cold and not just always only first stage like the majority of two stage furnace installations are due to oversizing. That way the furnace has real long cycle times allowing for consistent heat output, like a hot water heating system operates - always putting out heat. My furnace hasn't shut off since about 4:30 PM.

Post# 862847 , Reply# 40   1/19/2016 at 12:43 (433 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

No, only 90k unit, well sized. Replaced a 160k unit, now that was oversized...

I think the continuous air circulation helps greatly, would not ever do a furnace with out it.

Post# 863190 , Reply# 41   1/21/2016 at 00:14 (432 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

The readings from today were just posted online. The usage for January was 286 therms, as compared to last January's 307. Avg. temp this year: 29.7. Last January: 23.9. The usage is a little high compared to other months with a similar average temp, I wanna say it may be because of the gas range that we didn't have last year, and the billing period does cover the christmas season when we were using it a ton.
The paper bill hasn't posted yet so I don't know the itemized cost of gas, but the bill with gas and electric combined is $262.76, and the electric portion should be around $110.

Post# 863262 , Reply# 42   1/21/2016 at 10:30 (431 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Ok so the gas cost for that 286 therms used was $145.68, that is substantially cheaper then last year when nearly the same usage in February cost $217.85 for 276 therms used.

Post# 863282 , Reply# 43   1/21/2016 at 11:51 (431 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
I think it is lower

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this year for me also, need to check past bills

Post# 863678 , Reply# 44   1/23/2016 at 12:56 (429 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Do you still have your Vornado heater? I stumbled across your video from 2009 and saw that model is still built in USA so I ordered one.

Post# 863679 , Reply# 45   1/23/2016 at 13:12 (429 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Yes I do

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In fact, I have 3 AVh2 and the AVHT

Post# 863703 , Reply# 46   1/23/2016 at 16:15 (429 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

I picked up a VH200 which is a new model and really like it so far, doesn't run scorching hot (but still sucks nearly 1500 watts), and is quiet. I stress the quiet part because I don't think a heater should make any noise. (I also didn't want a radiator or quartz because I have a radiator, and the quartz is unsettling to watch glow like they do). Then I saw your AVH2 video and had to have probably the only consumer heater left that's built in the USA. The VH200 is Chinapride but seems like it's built alright.

Post# 863718 , Reply# 47   1/23/2016 at 17:58 (429 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
One year, at the condo

washman's profile picture
I pretty much ran both heaters most of the winter in an effort to cut down on the gas bill. Well I did alright. But the light bill was outta sight let me tell you. I still have them but I don't turn them on any more. I use an oil filled radiator style heater in the garage when the temp is below 10.........which we're supposed to have tonight!


Post# 864691 , Reply# 48   1/29/2016 at 16:10 (423 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

So I got my AVH2, wasn't long before I plugged it into my Kill-A-Watt and what I saw was quite a pleasant surprise for a consumer space heater, a variable fan and heating element control! I'm just playing with it right now but it seems it will ramp the element down to as low as 50 watts! And will go anywhere between that and full power. I definitely may be taking the VH200 back now, it's nowhere as sophisticated and has a plastic smell that hasn't gone away yet.

Post# 864697 , Reply# 49   1/29/2016 at 16:37 (423 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
I've had an AVH2 for several years.  Run it only in the bedroom at night.  It emits a noticeable burning-dust odor sometimes when the heat output ramps up on a cold snap after it has been operating throttled-back for a while.

Post# 864702 , Reply# 50   1/29/2016 at 16:48 (423 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Does yours hum? I'm noticing a kind of loud comparative-to-the-fan hum on this one that's starting to get annoying. Sounds like a transformer hum.

Post# 864707 , Reply# 51   1/29/2016 at 17:15 (423 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
It sometimes has a noticeable hum for several minutes when first turned on, settles down to normal (whatever is that, LOL).  May be the fan motor in my case.  I need to investigate how to disassemble it to blow out all the dust, maybe lube the fan motor.

Post# 864708 , Reply# 52   1/29/2016 at 17:17 (423 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

I listened closely and it's the fan motor on mine, it's a hum/buzzing sound more noticeable when it's on low. If it keeps up I'm taking it back.

Post# 864711 , Reply# 53   1/29/2016 at 17:42 (423 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
I keep the fan set at high.

Post# 864742 , Reply# 54   1/29/2016 at 22:52 (423 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Went and returned the VH200 and AVH2 in exchange for an AVH10 with the sleek design and digital controls. Very impressed by how quiet it is but I don't care for how quickly it cycles on and off (though hardly audible as it does so) making my lights flicker frequently. It has a multi step or near variable control like the AVH2. Probably just gonna bring it back and stick with manual controls.

Post# 866870 , Reply# 55   2/12/2016 at 18:58 (409 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
January bill

washman's profile picture
I don't believe this. But here it is in black and white. And it was a READ reading, not a guesstimate.

Rate RS(T)
Customer Charge - 1 Month $15.06
Price-to-Compare Commodity $2.0000 per MCF 2.00
Delivery Charge
1.0 MCF @ $6.7800 6.78
Demand (Capacity Charge) $0.7100 per MCF .71
State Tax Surcharge Cr .01
Total Current Charges $24.56
Total Account Balance $24.56
Peoples TWP current charges include $0.40 in state taxes

Billing cycle Jan 12 to Feb 11.

Post# 866909 , Reply# 56   2/12/2016 at 23:57 (409 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Your billing is unfamiliar to me and therefore very confusing. Obviously you're billed in MCF, but which number is your usage? Something is way off on that bill.
I would think they must've overestimated you last time or your meter is broken.

Post# 867128 , Reply# 57   2/14/2016 at 08:40 (407 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Beats me gusherb

washman's profile picture
Meter was newly installed when the house was built. I'm not going to question it with the gas company; I bet a lot of folks would love to have that kind of gas bill.

Post# 867140 , Reply# 58   2/14/2016 at 10:31 (407 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

They'll figure it out at some point.

I got a look at the January bills for my moms business and my dads building (same building separate heat sources).

The building (two apartments on two floors, completely uninsulated, leaky ass windows) was only $352. 544 therms were used. Comparatively last Februarys bill was 568 therms and $556. First time ever seeing a January bill below $500.

The business used 183 therms and was $145. Last February was 181 therms and $206.

Rates have gone down dramatically.

Post# 868441 , Reply# 59   2/22/2016 at 18:56 (399 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Gas bill at home for February was $130.68. 257 therms used. Electric: $96.65. 722 Kwh's used. Total combined bill: 227.33.

This winter has been much easier on the wallet.

Post# 868464 , Reply# 60   2/22/2016 at 21:01 (399 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

washman's profile picture
the next gas bill will be somewhat higher. I just have that feeling.............

hi frig!

Post# 868634 , Reply# 61   2/23/2016 at 17:09 (398 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

There are only 2 or 3 Furnace manufacturers left. Lennox, and Carrier, and Rheem, I think. Bryant is Carrier. Goodman is not Rheem, I think it is Carrier.
Just as there are only Copeland, or York air conditioning unit compressors and heat pumps made today.

Post# 868657 , Reply# 62   2/23/2016 at 18:58 (398 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Goodman is owned by Daikin

washman's profile picture
And to the best of my knowledge, they are manufactured in house using their own designs.

Carrier owns ICP who markets arcoaire, Tempstar, Comfortmaker, Heil, Day & Night, and Heil.

Rheemn/Ruud one of the same.

Lennox makes Lennox and a subsidiary called Allied Air markets Air Ease, Concord Ducane, and Armstrong Air.

Nordyne (cursed microchannel crap) makes Intertherm for mobile homes, slaps a Maytag and Frigidaire name on their stuff.

Coleman is a subsidairy of York which in turn is owned by Johnson Controls.

Trane is trane I believe

Bottom line, beyond the actual heat exchanger design and construction and the outer cabinet, everything else is off the shelf parts. Inducer motors, HSI devices, blower motor, gas valves, etc. For the most part, you pay for large marketing programs and dealer markup. And the name of course. Ask Trane how well it works. People will pay top dollar for a Trane that beyond the aforementioned stuff, is pretty much the same box as everyone else.

Post# 868677 , Reply# 63   2/23/2016 at 19:40 (398 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Rheem/Ruud is owned by the Japanese company Paloma, and Trane/American Standard Air is owned by Ingersoll Rand.

Also United Technologies is the parent company of Carrier and ICP.

Regarding Trane, apparently they give big volume discounts to contractors if they sell enough of them in a year. I got a quote from a company in 2011 and they quoted something like 9 grand for a Trane system and 6k for a Tempstar system. Two years later I was quoted 6k for the exact same Trane equipment as two years prior by the same company. I took it and ran.
Also in 2008 I was given a very reasonable quote by a different company quoting Trane equipment, I was at that time, ready to settle on Armstrong or something like that so I also took that and ran.

I think if offered Trane equipment at nothing more than the price of others, it's a great deal. I think they still stand out in several ways, not enough to overpay for but if offered at the same price as others I would pick Trane all day.

Post# 868742 , Reply# 64   2/24/2016 at 02:34 (398 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Other HVAC compressor brands I have seen-Carlyle Compressor-found in our Carrier Chiller units at work.Tecomseh makes compressors for HVAC equipment and commercial refrigeration.

Post# 868793 , Reply# 65   2/24/2016 at 08:50 (397 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Tolivac, Techumse

is defunct. No longer around. However, there is a new make form Japan on the recent scene.

Post# 868795 , Reply# 66   2/24/2016 at 08:53 (397 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Re; Trane,

Thanks for that info. Gusher. Good to know. After we replaced our only 20 year old Bryant plus 90 furnace with a high end Lenox, I was told that parts are hard to get.

Post# 868815 , Reply# 67   2/24/2016 at 10:29 (397 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Tecumseh engine gone

washman's profile picture
They still make compressors.


Post# 869343 , Reply# 68   2/27/2016 at 04:03 (394 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Good that Tecomseh is still around building HVAC compressors.The gas small motors are no more.

Post# 869350 , Reply# 69   2/27/2016 at 05:17 (394 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Techumse gas engines,

Is till have my 1988 magnesium deck Toro with a 3.5 horse Techumseh.

Post# 869363 , Reply# 70   2/27/2016 at 06:10 (394 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I used to have a Toro mower with a Tecomseh engine-got stolen.that motor truely started on the first pull and worked well.Best small motor I had.Later models had Briggs&Stratten motors-not as good.Sold the one with the B&S motor.Just didn't like the mower.

Post# 869366 , Reply# 71   2/27/2016 at 06:21 (394 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
My experience with Techumseh

washman's profile picture
engines was mixed. If you babied them, kept the oil meticulously changed and did not screw around with the governor spring to rev them higher, they would last. Sort of. I lost track of the number of engines that I saw with a thrown rod. Even the 13HP unit on Dad's Ariens gave up the ghost after 10 years and threw the rod. Right through the block! We had on on a Garden way (not MTD) troybilt pony that did ok, but I made sure the oil never got black and I never over revved it.

Post# 870259 , Reply# 72   3/3/2016 at 07:29 (389 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Around here

askolover's profile picture

most people didn't like Tecumseh engines.  B&S all the way!  My dad won't have anything but.  Now my push mower has a Honda engine on that's an engine!  Always starts first pull.  But my Snapper rider has a B&S on it, 16 years old and still starts first pull.

Post# 870273 , Reply# 73   3/3/2016 at 07:51 (389 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

sorry for calling you GAN on my last post.
My Techumseh always started on the first if not second pull. Yes B&S have a better reputation. My current Troy Bilt has a big 7 cu. in. one on it.
Once in a while it will vapor lock or something if I shut it down in mid mowing.

Post# 872536 , Reply# 74   3/14/2016 at 18:31 (378 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Feb 12 to March 13

washman's profile picture
$58.73, estimated bill

Gotta love union made furnaces.

Post# 872537 , Reply# 75   3/14/2016 at 18:35 (378 days old) by centenialguy ()        

I don't think any furnaces have been union made for a very long time.
Neither are the sales, or service companies, yet look what they charge.

Post# 872551 , Reply# 76   3/14/2016 at 19:41 (378 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Carrier/Bryant is/was union

washman's profile picture
West side of Indy. The same plant that is closing and moving to Mexico.

I have some anti-union acquaintances that browse this board (they are not members) who happen to detest unions and actually think unions and collective bargaining are of Satan himself. So from time to time I drop a line about product x being union made etc just to put a dig at them.

Actually Goodman does/did have a plant in Fayetteville TN that was unionized. It is closing also but at least the work is going to Houston (non union) factory that Daikin is expanding. I believe my furnace was made there but my AC unit was "put together" in Houston.

Post# 872600 , Reply# 77   3/15/2016 at 05:28 (377 days old) by centenialguy ()        

A unionized plant in Tennessee? I'm shocked!
I think Carrier is the maker for Goodman. Goodman buys wholesale and re badges and marks them up for a profit.
Still, $59 bucks is not that bad. An hvac guy wanted to charge me $200 for a $30 humidistat from China.

Post# 872601 , Reply# 78   3/15/2016 at 05:35 (377 days old) by centenialguy ()        

At times, a union is necessary. I've been on both sides of that fence myself.
In my former business, without it, I'd have had to fire a few managers who really mistreated some employees. The contract allowed me to transfer one or the other.
It's not only about money, but didn't unions help grow the former middle class?
At least that's what my grand dad told me. Came here at age 6 from Italy. He worked up to foreman at Crucible Steel in Midland Pa. he detested lazy workers, but said if not for the US Steel Workers union, he'd have never had much.

Post# 872634 , Reply# 79   3/15/2016 at 08:58 (377 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Here's a vid of Goodman factory

washman's profile picture
Does not look like a Carrier facility to me.


Post# 872637 , Reply# 80   3/15/2016 at 09:41 (377 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Goodman is NOT Carrier

askolover's profile picture
Post# 872655 , Reply# 81   3/15/2016 at 12:43 (377 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

If you go to Google maps in Huntington Indiana, you will see the United Technologies Carrier plant there. They also brand for Rheem, and Amana, and the first video posted by washman shows about 2/3 the way through.

Post# 872656 , Reply# 82   3/15/2016 at 12:46 (377 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Now we are talking

air conditioning units, not furnaces.
As the Goodman website is a sales tool for them, and says they had a warehouse in Houston TX., well that is close to where Lenox is.

Post# 872663 , Reply# 83   3/15/2016 at 13:45 (377 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Lennox facilities

washman's profile picture
*Lennox Industries Division Facilities Headquarters: Richardson, Texas
*Research and Development Facility: Carrollton, Texas
*North American Parts and Distribution Center: Des Moines, Iowa
*Marshalltown Factory: Marshalltown, Iowa
*Stuttgart Factory: Stuttgart, Arkansas

Both Carrolton and RIchardson are in the DFW are. Goodman is down by Houston

Post# 872695 , Reply# 84   3/15/2016 at 16:51 (377 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Ok then, it is difficult to keep track of who owns who.

Does Goodman actually have a factory? They do not say.
The plant west of Indy, in Huntington is the plant which is closing, owned by UT Carrier.
There used to be three compressor companies left. Copeland, Tecumseh, and York.
The cabinets for most brands only have two shapes today. Same as with the furnaces, except for Trane. A Payne unit looks identical to a Carrier.
Do they all have Fasco motors for induction and forced air?
Daikin is Japanese, and has only been on our market a few years.
I think we will see more split units like LG and Mitsubishi make, especially in new construction.

Post# 872721 , Reply# 85   3/15/2016 at 18:27 (377 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Yes Goodman does have a factory

washman's profile picture
all of it is being consolidated in Houston (non union) Texas. Dayton TN and Fayetteville TN factories are being closed.

Payne is Carrier's (UTC) contractor grade furnace.

Dunno if all of them use Fasco or not. Probably whatever is cheapest that gets the job done I would assume per corporate America standards.

Carlyle Compressor is owned by UTC

Copeland is owned by Emerson Technologies

Trane used to have a compressor factory in Texas, it made the Danfoss design that GE called Climatuff. Trane bought GE's residential central AC in 1982.

Post# 872727 , Reply# 86   3/15/2016 at 18:42 (377 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
my non union AC running last summer

washman's profile picture
Post# 872753 , Reply# 87   3/15/2016 at 19:53 (377 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
It's pretty quiet!

I've got a 90's Bryant high efficiency (for then) 2 ton variable speed, and a newer Lenox variable speed 2 stage furnace. They work well together.
Blower ramps up slow, no hot or cold blasts of air, and runs a good full minute or so after the outside unit shuts off to clear the ducts of cold air.

Post# 872766 , Reply# 88   3/15/2016 at 20:42 (377 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
It does ok

washman's profile picture
the fan motor is a Chinese sourced "broad Ocean" label, probably the cheapest of the cheap.

It carries the freight up here with ease. It does not run constantly. Only thing is the furnace is single stage, full on or full off, no gradual ramp up on fan speed.

Goodman's are noted for weak start/run capacitors on the condensing units. I have priced out a USA made replacement that I will order soon to have a spare. They are easy to change.

Beyond that, my cost of running is pretty nil compared to the condo. With the cold weather spurts we've had, I would have a $100+ gas bill over there. Not here.

What does cost are the Aprilaire 413 filters. THey are good, last a bit, but I pay around $40 incl. shipping to get them here from an outfit in Ohio.

Get back to me in 5 years or so which will give the unit time to break down. I'm sure the doodads that make it tick are not the most durable but there are some things I know I can replace myself thus saving a service call. All the HVAC outfits around here service Goodman along with other common brands.

FYI I think you had Thermopride in mind when you said Carrier makes their outdoor units. Actually those are made by Johnson Controls (Coleman, York, Luxaire, Champion). They have facilities in Norman OK, and Witcha KS. They also use a lot of microchannel "technology" (total BS) in their outdoor coils. IIRC I think they also slap the storied "Airtemp" name on some of their stuff too.

Post# 872804 , Reply# 89   3/16/2016 at 01:51 (377 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

In general beware of the variable speed DC blower motors.One of the guys that is on my shift had his fail.Replacement was like $500!!So he purchased a fixed speed replacement thru Graingers and saved about $300.Did an autoposy on the old motor-board was potted but you could see where the blown board components vented thru the epoxy potting.Sometimes that stuff catches fire!

Post# 872833 , Reply# 90   3/16/2016 at 08:17 (376 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
re; motor quality

Ah, well, the lowest cost is par for the course with todays manufacturers it seems.
We pay good money for things and then have to pay more to improve their longevity and or performance.
All but negates the energy savings in my opinion.
Some public personalities of late have been critical of one havac maker for going to Mexico, and for Johnson Controls moving their HQ to Ireland.
I guess it's all just global enterprise shuffling around.
If I were going to make something and sell it, I would want satisfied customers who tell friends how well it is made and reliable, to get more sales.
Today, the makers are not the sellers in most instances.
The consumer is over the barrel so to speak.

Post# 872941 , Reply# 91   3/16/2016 at 22:13 (376 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

I know Goodman has (unless it's closed already) a factory in Fayetteville, TN because I have seen it  and my own Amana AC/furnace package unit was built there.


Fedders used to have a facility right here in my town, and GE used to build fridge compressors here too (the bad ones).


Whirlpool had a facility in Lavergne,TN, but it also closed. 

International Comfort Products (part of UTC)has a facility in Lewisburg, TN

Post# 873536 , Reply# 92   3/20/2016 at 19:44 (372 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Well I do feel for the TN folks

washman's profile picture
but at least Daikin is keeping the jobs in USA, even if it is Texas. I'd rather see jobs go from state to state than south of the border.

I also forgot Nordyne, the original breeder of the infamous Intertherm mobile home oil furnace that I grew to detest with a passion.

Post# 877229 , Reply# 93   4/15/2016 at 18:28 (346 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Latest bill

washman's profile picture
March 11-April 12, actual bill.

Customer Charge - 1 Month $15.06
Price-to-Compare Commodity $1.9077 per MCF 4.96
Delivery Charge
2.6 MCF @ $7.1346 18.55
Demand (Capacity Charge) $0.6769 per MCF 1.76
State Tax Surcharge Cr .02
Total Current Charges $40.35
Total Account Balance $40.35

Post# 878704 , Reply# 94   4/26/2016 at 21:29 (335 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Well 1 year with the Goodman

washman's profile picture
and thus far, no problems. Recall when I moved in 12 months ago, PA had a cold, wet spring and I was running the furnace even in May. This year might shape up to be a bit warmer, earlier.

Obviously, I cannot complain about the gas bills. None went over $60.00. Probably the biggest expense are the Aprilaire 413 filters that I buy via mail order.

House has remained comfortable all winter, even on the below zero days with evil NW winds.

2 co workers installed complete Goodman HVAC in their houses they are remodeling. Another co-worker had his Goodman HVAC for 9 years and no service calls..........yet.

I hope I can get a great many years of use before I have to call the repair guy.

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