Thread Number: 6024
Every Day’s a Holiday with Hotpont - Maybe? |
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Post# 124038   4/23/2006 at 20:25 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Some of you might remember about a year and a half ago I was attempting to get my 1956 Hotpoint washer restored but ran into some major problems with the clutch. It turned out that the metal clutch locking groove had worn down to the point where the spin clutch was not being disengaged anymore during agitation and the tub would spin during the wash and rinse cycles. So I took the clutch spider to a machine shop and had them weld on a new piece of metal which worked for about 15 minutes until the new metal wore away the groove on the clutch jaw and once again I was out of luck. So at that point I gave up and threw the machine into storage hoping someday to find the right parts. Here is a link back to the original Hotpoint thread. Thankfully last year Greg found another Hotpoint of the same design mechanically so I should be able to take two machines now and make one good one. So yesterday I began work on combing the two machines, unfortunately the new washer’s agitator drive block is so worn that the agitator will only turn about 1/2 it’s normal stoke. Normally that wouldn’t be a big deal and I have a new drive block ready to install, but in order to remove the old drive block you remove the agitator shaft simply by loosening two set screws under the clutch housing from beneath the washer and pulling the shaft up through the top opening. Wouldn’t you know it but one set screw came out easy as pie, the other absolutely positively refuses to budge. So the only option is to take the entire washer apart from the bottom so I can pull the agitator shaft out from under the washer. Oh well here goes… |
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Post# 124040 , Reply# 1   4/23/2006 at 20:28 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Here is a view underneath the '56 Hotpoint. The machine is Hotpoint's third redesign since its first automatic in 1949. Its at the stage when they are still using a Beam transmission, but have designed their own clutch. This was the design right before they introduced their own Co-Axial tranmission. First thing I have to do is remove the Diagonal Crossbrace... |
Post# 124041 , Reply# 2   4/23/2006 at 20:30 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 124042 , Reply# 3   4/23/2006 at 20:31 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 124043 , Reply# 4   4/23/2006 at 20:33 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 124044 , Reply# 5   4/23/2006 at 20:37 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Well check this out, now that I have the clutch apart I see this machine has a slighlty redesigned clutch, it's Nylon! I wonder if the was a mid production change because of field service problems they were having or its this was a replacement and Nylon has less wear???? Anyway, so this week I will reassembly the machine and hopefully we can have some '56 Hotpoint Action Videos. |
Post# 124046 , Reply# 6   4/23/2006 at 20:43 (6,548 days old) by oldwasherguy (Ladson SC)   |   | |
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Post# 124054 , Reply# 8   4/23/2006 at 20:54 (6,548 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Huh, interesting. Might be one of the few instances where a plastic transmission/clutch part works better than metal...! And yes, the Hotpoint is oozing character and deserves your tender loving care. Congratulations! Question: was Hotpoint an independent company at that time, or was it a division of GE? |
Post# 124094 , Reply# 10   4/23/2006 at 22:32 (6,548 days old) by tecnopolis (Ocala/Dunnellon, Florida 34481)   |   | |
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Post# 124096 , Reply# 11   4/23/2006 at 22:34 (6,548 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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Apparently I didn't read the Archive thread well enough either...oy! I just noticed where you were able to use a spring to force the clutch spider down during agitation. How did this setup eventually turn out? |
Post# 124100 , Reply# 12   4/23/2006 at 22:47 (6,548 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Robert, This is a real awsome machine. We had the Hotpoint in the most wanted pictures (the model with the removeable lid) it was a 1955 model. It was a BOL model but I bet it was simular in many ways to this model. It had the black goose neck adj. Good luck on the restoration I cannot wait to see the results. Peter |
Post# 124101 , Reply# 13   4/23/2006 at 22:58 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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was Hotpoint an independent company at that time, or was it a division of GE? Rich yes Hotpoint was division of GE then, but Hotpoint continued to produce their own washers until 1975, when the line was changed to the GE line. Does the motor drive the pump pulley, which in turn serves as a jackshaft to drive the transmission pulley via the second belt? Austin the motor has a double pulley which turns the Spin Clutch Pulley Belt and the Drive Belt Pump. The Pump also has a double pulley which is driven from the motor and turns the transmission pulley. Three belts to run this baby! And yes I'm going to use the TOL top and control panel for this washer. the ultimate water hog! Your correct about that Alexander the Hotpoint's water usage is high for the time at 41 gallons per cycle, the GE & Speed Queen used 43 gallons, they were the top water hogs, Whirlpool and Kenmore used 36.5, Frigidaire used 28 gallons and Apex used 27 gallons. The Westinghouse and Bendix Front Loaders both tie at 24 gallons. I just noticed where you were able to use a spring to force the clutch spider down during agitation. How did this setup eventually turn out? Austin, it worked 50% of the time and the other 50% it didn't because half the time the solenoid couldn't overcome the pressure of the new spring. So only working 50% of the time didn't cut it. Can't wait to see this machine washing, keeping my fingers crossed! |
Post# 124113 , Reply# 16   4/24/2006 at 01:11 (6,548 days old) by lesto (Atlanta)   |   | |
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I'm so excited that you're working on the Hotpoint again. Can't wait to watch the progress this week and ultimately, some working videos. Love the red agi! |
Post# 124117 , Reply# 17   4/24/2006 at 02:10 (6,548 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Thanks Robert. I'm surprised the Frigidaire of that era (solid tub, no doubt) used only 28 gallons of water per wash load. That is competitive with the original Neptune series, and with many of the modern HE top loader models on the market today. Except for one thing, which is that the wash water volume is probably close to half that amount, 14 gallons, whereas a front loader will typically use about 1/4 the total water volume for the wash part of the cycle. So the energy needed for heating the wash water will still be less for a front loader than it is for a top loader. Still, makes me wonder... why not bring back the solid tub concept... for water conservation reasons? |
Post# 124120 , Reply# 18   4/24/2006 at 03:38 (6,548 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I am just enjoying this to no end. 'Course, I am not the one doing the work, looking for the solutions... I remember my dad telling me way back when that in set-ups like here to never have two parts with the same wear characteristics. Either brass and ruby (clocks) or sintered bronze and soft steel (sleeve bearings and motor shafts). Not an engineer, but that makes sense to me. One always has to "give" a little or they would wear each other out. Maybe that explains the nylon. Not everything made of plastic is junk, just 99.99%. Robert, good luck and keep posting - I am going to go pop some popcorn. |
Post# 124156 , Reply# 19   4/24/2006 at 09:40 (6,548 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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So where does all the water go? Joe I believe the '56 Hotpoint has an overflow wash and overflow rinse, plus a long spray rinse which uses extra water. And I agree with about plastic in this sitution Kevin, I bet the metal and plastic meshing together causes less wear. It's a good thing that I took the washer apart anyway, all those shifter parts had dried grease on them and they needed a thorough cleaning and regreasing. More to come. |
Post# 124161 , Reply# 20   4/24/2006 at 10:13 (6,548 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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Robert, congratulations on your achievement...and thank you(from the archives) for the history on Hotpoint, it answered a lot of questions. One more: was Hotpoint ever its own company or was it always a subsidiary of GE? Its machines were so distinctive (although ever dogged by CU)and I remember,(since we were a monotypical GE family and our downstairs neighbors happened to be a Hotpoint family ( my mother said that it was a cheaper line back then), similarities but more differences before GE assmililated the whole thing and BORG-ed it. This is much more recent than your Hotpoint, but I think it's the same style solid washbasket enlarged and it's the best I can offer today: |
Post# 124178 , Reply# 22   4/24/2006 at 15:22 (6,547 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Ah, yes - the solid elements. Supposedly they offer advantages. Have yet to figure out any. Ok, not quite true. The last generation was covered in very thin metal and, running at 2.5Kw, they became very hot very fast. But it is true, they are horrid, nasty, slow to warm up, even slower to cool down---and always a little bit dirty around the chrome ring separating the plate from the porcelain. Still on offer but rapidly being replaced by induction and halogen. Wonder why induction has not caught on in the 'States? Question: How do they get the filament embedded in the magnisium oxide so that it does not touch the sides? Have always wondered about that. And not quite off topic - same principle in the heating elements we use in our washers and many dryers. |
Post# 124211 , Reply# 23   4/24/2006 at 19:25 (6,547 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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Thank you Tomturbomatic--I always thought that Calrod was a GE invention... now I know. Did "Hotpoint" originally refer to clothes irons? And to partially answer Panthera's question about induction cooking: I'm a pastry chef by profession and we've been using induction for sugar and chocolate work for a long time because the cookware we use, generally, is magnetic and thus works on induction burners. I think that the problem for the retail sales of induction units is that, given their expense, it's a lot to ask of consumers that they scap all of their old cookware in favor of magnetic pots and pans. It's still the major reason that Gas is the perennial favorite (remember Corning ware stoves?? Brilliantly adapted Frigidaire electric stoves (my Uncle still owns one), but you had to buy sets of expensive Corning Ware pots and pans--nothing else would boil water on those units). Also, according to some friends of mine who sell these things, they've had too many returns from idiot customers who buy them, paying no attention to the requirements, get them home and find they don't work with grandma's old aluminum stock pot. It's one reason Fisher & Paykel stuff hasn't sold that well in my neck of the woods, appliance dealer headaches. |
Post# 124269 , Reply# 24   4/24/2006 at 22:11 (6,547 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Good news tonight, it appears that the Hotpoint is probably go to work from a mechanical standpoint. The clutch is back together and the motor and belts are reinstalled. The machine seems to work fine now, its a bit rickety because the clutch shoes are slightly worn but nothing out of the ordinary for a 50 year old washer. Tomorrow I will continue on and water test the machine. Here is the new drive block installed and a view of the tub inside the outer cabinet with no outer tub... |
Post# 124270 , Reply# 25   4/24/2006 at 22:13 (6,547 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 124286 , Reply# 26   4/25/2006 at 01:26 (6,547 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I love seeing these restorations. Especially when a machine has been so "needy". Not sure the restorer feels that way, but the long storyline is great. What beautiful machines. I wonder why planned obsolescence ever came to define our world. Looking forward to the money shots - there will be some, please please please! Especially of that 3 belt set-up. I can just hear that water hitting the walls now. What a job of work that must have been, keeping the quality high enough so nothing would rust out or through. |
Post# 124312 , Reply# 27   4/25/2006 at 07:45 (6,547 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 124328 , Reply# 28   4/25/2006 at 08:41 (6,547 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Yes me too Greg, as for the TOL timer, I fixed that last year. I had to take the escapement apart and fix it so works just fine now. A gear in the escapement had actually broken, that is the first time I have ever seen that happen. Kevin here is a shot of the three belt mechanism. Ignore the statement about "clickity-clack sound" that was from my first attempt at restoring this machine, which that particular problem is solved YAY. |
Post# 124419 , Reply# 29   4/25/2006 at 13:57 (6,546 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 124496 , Reply# 31   4/25/2006 at 19:35 (6,546 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Robert, Thank you very much. I am only just now up to the clutch shoes - massive - in my understanding. I try to figure out how these wonderful things work mechanically and shots like this help. I wonder what a direct drive motor for all of that would be dimensioned like...that is, a direct drive motor that still worked great after 50 years... A very belated "Alles Gute zum Geburtstag" by the way! And many many happy returns of the day. |
Post# 124698 , Reply# 32   4/26/2006 at 14:59 (6,545 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Not to jinx it, but tonight I might get to do the very first load in the Hotpoint. I just have to clear up the tub centering issues by switching the springs from the old machine into the new one (easier said than done), because the old one did not have centering issues and I suspect the springs are weak in this machine. I turned the dial through the cycle last night to see its cycle functions. Anyone care to guess how long the overflow rinse cycle is in this machine? |
Post# 124699 , Reply# 33   4/26/2006 at 15:06 (6,545 days old) by lesto (Atlanta)   |   | |
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Hotpoints always seem to have a centering problem. As for the rinse, 6 minutes? |
Post# 124713 , Reply# 35   4/26/2006 at 16:26 (6,545 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 124715 , Reply# 36   4/26/2006 at 16:32 (6,545 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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I'm not quite sure on this one...LOL. 5 minutes? |
Post# 124745 , Reply# 37   4/26/2006 at 20:06 (6,545 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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OMG, I now see where all that water usage comes from. There are no spray rinses, but the rinse fill is 6 minutes long (it only takes 3.5 to fill the tub) and the overflow rinse agitation is another 4.5 minutes long. Making a grand total of 10.5 minutes of waterflow just for the rinse cycle. Yeah baby!
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Post# 124761 , Reply# 38   4/26/2006 at 21:28 (6,545 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Wow Robert, Thats realy a long overflow. We had 2 Hotpoints and that 1st model with the lid that was removable didn't have a spray rinse either. But the second had a spray and a overflow that I think was only 2 1/2 to 3 minutes. I think from my personal observations with solid tubs the Kelvinator had the most intensive overflow rinseing of all solid tubs. Am I right or wrong? Peter |
Post# 124775 , Reply# 39   4/26/2006 at 22:05 (6,545 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 124777 , Reply# 40   4/26/2006 at 22:11 (6,545 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Post# 124836 , Reply# 42   4/27/2006 at 08:31 (6,545 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 125037 , Reply# 43   4/27/2006 at 22:43 (6,544 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Tonight I took out the timer in the Hotpoint and made an adjustment. It works fine except for the very first increment of the final spin, it continued to keep the overflow rinse water filling, and after that long overflow rinse the last thing we want is increment of spin spray. So I took out the timer and marked the wires so I would remember how to put it back together. Then I marked the side of the timer so I could tell where the dial lines up with the red pointer on the chrome control panel. With the timer dial re-installed on the timer I can see where the timer dial is located in the cycle so its easy for me to find the first increment of the final spin. |
Post# 125038 , Reply# 44   4/27/2006 at 22:45 (6,544 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Next I determined which contact was the rinse water contact by following the wires to the rinse side of the water temperature switch. Once I knew which wire contact connector was attached to the rinse water wire, I removed the side panel closest to the contact that needed adjustment. Bending these 4 tabs allows you to remove the side panel. |
Post# 125040 , Reply# 45   4/27/2006 at 22:47 (6,544 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Here’s the inside of the timer. The timer cams are round wood circles with notches cut out in them. As the timer “increment clicks” it turns both the dial and those cams clockwise. The cam follower ramps, that is the part that is bent downward and touch the cams, ride along the top of the cam. When a notch comes along in the cam the cam follower drops down into the notch allowing the top electrical contact to drop down and touch the bottom electrical contact and complete the circuit, in the case start the rinse fill. The problem was that over the years the cam follower ramp had been bent slightly upward and was not coming back up complety during the first increment of the final spin. So I took a tiny screwdriver and GENTLY pressed the metal ramp of the cam follower down slightly. Problem solved. |
Post# 125082 , Reply# 46   4/28/2006 at 03:25 (6,544 days old) by brettsomers ()   |   | |
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Wooden?!? amazing! |
Post# 125087 , Reply# 47   4/28/2006 at 05:11 (6,544 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I tread here gently - except for my name, I've never seen Robert get anything wrong - but wood? I had (sadly, "had") an Underwood electric typewriter with a fibre gear set from that era. The gears looked just like these cams. Could they be out of the same material? It is made by impregnating fibre disks with a resin (in those days a phenolic) and bonding them under great heat and pressure. Produced quiet running, dimensionally stable and relatively production tolerance compatible gear sets, cams, etc. If they are wood...what would suit the purpose? You couldn't use oak with iron for obvious reasons...the "soft" woods are out for obvious reasons, too. Hmm...Rosewood? |
Post# 125121 , Reply# 48   4/28/2006 at 09:22 (6,544 days old) by lesto (Atlanta)   |   | |
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Robert, how long is each increment, 1.5? Also, how do you set the wash time ring on the dial in relation to the main timer? |
Post# 125128 , Reply# 49   4/28/2006 at 10:15 (6,544 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 125157 , Reply# 51   4/28/2006 at 15:56 (6,543 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I know the composite cams used in other machines of this period were preformed into roughly the needed shape and then machined into the exact shape needed. Suppose the same was done with these. There are some interesting articles out there on the whole topic - lots of the early work was for military aircraft. After the war, a lot of the "new" materials were used in traditional applications because the factories and capital investments set up in the last years of the war needed to be used. The war came to a very sudden end leaving many companies with enormous capacities and investments. This led to the introduction of many good things - and also planned obsolescence which is only bad, Robert, a simply great project. Am very much hoping for some videos. KevEn |
Post# 125175 , Reply# 52   4/28/2006 at 18:51 (6,543 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)   |   | |
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Post# 125196 , Reply# 53   4/28/2006 at 19:34 (6,543 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 125197 , Reply# 54   4/28/2006 at 19:39 (6,543 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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WOW, a 1.5-minute escapement that early? Amazing... And I thought all "snappers" were 30 or 45 seconds LOL. |
Post# 843725 , Reply# 55   10/1/2015 at 08:28 (3,101 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Love these old threads! Found this ad, this seems like a good place to post it. Let's have an update on the Hotpoint please..how did it turn out? This post was last edited 10/01/2015 at 12:00 |
Post# 843977 , Reply# 56   10/2/2015 at 19:33 (3,099 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )   |   | |
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