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Thread Number: 61474
/ Tag: Detergents and Additives
sodium percarbonate |
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| Post# 841536 , Reply# 2 9/17/2015 at 09:16 (3,136 days old) by maylingsmom () | ||
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dixan I may not understand you clearly since chemistry was not my best subject in college but does sodium percarbonate have an activator in it if it is "pure"? Also, can you tell me what TAED and NOBS are? | ||
| Post# 841557 , Reply# 6 9/17/2015 at 16:05 (3,136 days old) by mamapinky (blairsville pa) | ||
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Perhaps more laymens terms would help me understand, which I would very much like to understand this. | ||
| Post# 841558 , Reply# 7 9/17/2015 at 16:09 (3,136 days old) by dixan (Europe) | ||
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I don't understand why are you adding sodium percarbonate to your wash. What is the purpose? Why don't you buy good stain remover with activated bleach system. Tide has great products with perfect ratio between persalt and activator. You will be pleased with the results. | ||
| Post# 841561 , Reply# 8 9/17/2015 at 16:19 (3,136 days old) by dixan (Europe) | ||
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Which part you don't understand, mamapinky? Sodium percarbonate is sodium carbonate+hydrogen peroxide in one. Two molecules sodium carbonate and three molecules hydrogen peroxide are bond together. In contact with water it ALWAYS decompose to sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. | ||
Post# 841564 , Reply# 9 9/17/2015 at 16:52 (3,136 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Only Oxygen Bleach Containing Products With Activators
In USA are those sold by P&G (Tide, formerly Biz, etc....)
Unlike Europe where the patents for TAED have long expired thus leaving anyone to add that activator to their oxygen bleaching systems P&G has kept the patents for sodium nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate (NOBS) locked up. P&G also uses this technology in their automatic dishwashing detergents. You will not find a single American domestic laundry product with an activated bleaching system outside of those made by P&G unless the use TAED. Ecolab sold an activated oxygen bleaching system for commercial laundries for instance but it used TAED, not NOBS. That being said anyone can add sodium percarbonate or perborate to their laundry detergents, boosters, stain removers or whatever, it just won't have the same capabilities of an activated system. | ||
| Post# 841567 , Reply# 10 9/17/2015 at 17:17 (3,136 days old) by dixan (Europe) | ||
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Well, now you have Persil pearls and it's great bleaching system. Stain removing powders and packs from Tide are formulated virtually without compromise. Why pure percarbonate? There is no point. They sell it for laboratories not to use it in your washing machine. | ||
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Post# 841607 , Reply# 15 9/18/2015 at 00:52 (3,135 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Bleach activating systems came about out of the energy crisis of the 1970's among other reasons. Both NOBS and TAED activate sodium perborate (the then common oxygen bleach in laundry products) so it worked at lower temperatures.
Sodium perborate on its own will bleach but requires temps from a or >140 to really get going. In Europe with all that boil washing and or machines that self heated to temps from 120F to 200F pure sodium perborate wasn't a problem. But again in order to cut energy use bleaching activator (TAED) came along. So now laundries and housewives could get "boil wash" bleaching results at lower temperatures. On this side of the pond oxygen bleach (again most sodium perborate) was sold as "color safe bleach" because again it takes high temperatures to really get the stuff to work. No one is going to wash colors at 140F or above so the bleaching power was reduced. However it still gave adequate stain removal and other properties wanted from a "safe" bleach. P&G developed NOBS for use with the dilute qualities of American laundry machines (mostly then top loaders) that and or soaking. Biz originally morped from a enzyme pre-soak to an oxygen bleach with an activated perborate system. Oxydol also had a bleaching system (first just sodium perborate then activated). Finally P&G put all their eggs into one basket and came up with "Tide with Bleach". That product as fitting P&G's and America's top laundry detergent had the refined NOBS activated bleaching system and P&G has never looked back. It is only recently that Gain and other powdered detergents have begun sharing some of Tide powder bleaching systems. Sodium percarbonate OTOH is known as the "cold water oxygen bleach". This is because it is powerful on its own to work even in cold water. It may take longer but unlike sodium perborate the stuff will work in warm, lukewarm and even cold water. In the EU due to worries and over boron and restrictions on borates laundry and automatic dishwasher products began to move from sodium perborate to sodium percarbonate. Technically sodium percarbonate does not require the addition of an activator. However both NOBS and TAED combine with oxygen bleaches to form peracetic acid which is not only a powerful bleaching agent but disinfectant as well. So when you see boxes of Persil or Tide Coldwater powders stating they can effectively clean and bleach at temps of 20c or 30c, now you know. The addition of an activated oxygen bleaching system based on sodium percarbonate. Personally if doing a load of whites or anything else at temps of 100F or above just add pure sodium percarbonate. Do this especially when using liquid or gel detergents because they do not contain bleaching agents. Sodium percarbonate on its own is far from useless. You just have to know what you want to do. | ||
| Post# 841635 , Reply# 19 9/18/2015 at 07:31 (3,135 days old) by mamapinky (blairsville pa) | ||
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One other thing, since pure sodium percarbonate will break down into sodium carbonate in the wash, would it be less than lets say oxyclean with its addition of 50% or more added washing soda? Thank you much Cheryl | ||
| Post# 841637 , Reply# 20 9/18/2015 at 07:47 (3,135 days old) by dixan (Europe) | ||
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"One other thing, since pure sodium percarbonate will break down into sodium carbonate in the wash, would it be less than lets say oxyclean with its addition of 50% or more added washing soda?" Yes, of course it would be less. I wonder how much percarbonate do you use. | ||
| Post# 841643 , Reply# 24 9/18/2015 at 09:56 (3,135 days old) by dixan (Europe) | ||
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"What exactly does that refer to? What could be a contaminant?" Usually sodium carbonate. | ||
| Post# 841687 , Reply# 25 9/18/2015 at 16:31 (3,135 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
I have and use pure sodium percarbonate..
But to be honest I haven't noticed that it whitens much better than plain old Borax..
I'm using a little more Borax than percarbonate but...And I've tried it using liquid and powder detergent? I know that Borax is suppose to release some oxygen (in hot water) but have no idea how much more or less than perborate/ percarbonate? So Dixan.. What are your thoughts on Borax? For me.. I know if I really want to whiten.. A small amount of LCB (a ounce) added the last 5 min always dose the trick. | ||
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Post# 841693 , Reply# 26 9/18/2015 at 16:45 (3,135 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Sodium Percarbonate
Does not break down to purely washing or even baking soda in water.
SP will release oxygen in water (the bound hydrogen peroxide to washing soda) yes, there will be trace amounts of alkalinity but not the entire amount. All oxygen bleaches increase aggressiveness as pH increases. This is why commercial laundries/dry cleaners use ammonia along with oxygen bleach (usually liquid hydrogen peroxide) when spot treating stains. Ammonia is nothing more than a alkaline substance (gas) in water. To this end makers of oxygen bleaches add various amounts of sodium carbonate to both perborate and percarbonate bleaches. The latter does not really need much if any increase in base substance as sodium carbonate is more alkaline than Borax. Because sodium percarbonate is more expensive than Borax or sodium perborate some places cheap out by adding lots of washing soda (which is also inexpensive) to stretch the amount of sodium percarbonate. Oxiclean poweder is largely sodium carbonate whereas Tide bleaching products contain much less. Quite honestly if using powdered detergent then there is more than enough alkalinity provided by washing soda and other substances for both types of oxygen bleaches. It is only when using liquid detergents and or making up an oxygen bleach soak or spot solution that it may be necessary to add additional alkalinity. Again the beauty of oxygen bleaches is you can control their aggressiveness if one knows what one is doing. Commercial laundries and professional laundresses do this all the time. OTOH chlorine bleach leaves very little margin for error. | ||
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Post# 841724 , Reply# 29 9/18/2015 at 20:07 (3,135 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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sodium percarbonate decomposes to sodium carbonate and H2O2
Perhaps "decomposes" is the confusing word here.
Sodium percarbonate in water breaks down into washing soda and hydrogen peroxide. www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/resou... www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/s... People "like" Oxiclean because it is cheap, much cheaper than say purchasing small packets of say Ecover pure sodium percarbonate (only source one has locally for the pure stuff). Again it would wouldn't it? Because Oxiclean and various knockoffs contain large amounts of cheap filler (washing soda). If you increase the pH level oxygen bleaches become more aggressive, hence the reason many suppliers cut pure oxygen bleach powders with alkaline substances such as washing soda. One personally does not like using the various "Oxiclean" products because you are then stuck rinsing all that washing soda out of laundry. Again if using a powdered detergent piling on more soda just isn't necessary. | ||
| Post# 841775 , Reply# 31 9/19/2015 at 06:51 (3,134 days old) by maylingsmom () | ||
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mama I don't believe I quoted you. I read my comment again and didn't see that I said your name. But I only voiced that some people like oxiclean and others don't which seems to me to be true. You don't agree with that statement? | ||
| Post# 841780 , Reply# 34 9/19/2015 at 07:52 (3,134 days old) by mamapinky (blairsville pa) | ||
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And there's a better alternative to pure sodium percarbonate. .Tide with Bleach or Persil. If oxygen Bleach is what your after. | ||
| Post# 841781 , Reply# 35 9/19/2015 at 07:58 (3,134 days old) by mamapinky (blairsville pa) | ||
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I should also add IMO | ||
| Post# 841800 , Reply# 36 9/19/2015 at 13:57 (3,134 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Mama | ||
| Post# 841813 , Reply# 37 9/19/2015 at 17:20 (3,134 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Was just in Safeway | ||
| Post# 842046 , Reply# 39 9/21/2015 at 01:02 (3,132 days old) by stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Mama | ||
| Post# 1003306 , Reply# 40 8/11/2018 at 12:38 (2,077 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Stumbled across this old thread | ||
| Post# 1003338 , Reply# 41 8/11/2018 at 16:44 (2,077 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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What about
powdered Biz.. dose it contain the activators needed for the oxygen bleach in it?
Some light research on my part shows that only Powdered Tide, and powdered Gain have activated bleach! Noticed a (new to me) powdered Tide with Oxy on the shelf? Looked it up, and it appears that it dose contain a activator...Don't know if this is a new product or not? | ||
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Post# 1003346 , Reply# 42 8/11/2018 at 18:20 (2,077 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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No, it does not. | ||
| Post# 1003361 , Reply# 43 8/11/2018 at 20:31 (2,077 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Thank you Dear
For stoping by.
Do you happen to know if the product on the left is a old one, or new? Since its a P&G product with Oxy.. I assume it's activated? Liquid Tide with bleach confuses me because I can't see how a oxygen bleach could be stable in liquid form? I suppose the new Biz will still be useful if not for the sodium percarbonate...as a enzyme soak?
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Post# 1003386 , Reply# 44 8/12/2018 at 04:08 (2,076 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"Oxi" Isn't a regulated word/term
As such detergent and other product makers are free to use it in names or whatever. This even if the product in question does not contain any sort of oxygen bleaching agent.
Product on left "Tide Ultra Oxi" is P&G's latest incarnation and part of a line of products having that word in product name. tide.com/en-us/about-tide/tide-u... Tide Oxi Powder ingredients: •INGREDIENT •Sodium Carbonate •Sodium Sulfate •Sodium Aluminosilicate •Sodium C10-16 Alkylbenzenesulfonate •Sodium Carbonate Peroxide •Sodium Laureth Sulfate •Sodium Phenylnonanoate Sulfonate •Sodium Polyacrylate •Sodium Silicate •Water •Fragrance •Palmitic Acid •PEG •Fluorescent Brightener •Phenylpropyl ethyl methicone •Protease •Amylase •Lipase •Blue 1 Sodium Carbonate Ingredient descriptions have been provided by Tide. Tide Oxi Liquid contains: •Water •Sodium Alcohol Ethoxylate Sulfate •Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonate Mea Salt •Alcohol Ethoxylate •Citric Acid Mea Salt •Polyethyleneimine Ethoxylate Propoxylate •Diethylene Glycol •Propylene Glycol •Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonate Sodium Salt •Alcohol •Borax •Polyethyleneimine Ethoxylate •Sodium Alcohol Sulfate •Fragrance •Lauramine Oxide •Lauric Acid Mea Salt •Citric Acid Sodium Salt •Sodium Dtpa •Flourescent Brightener •Myristic Acid Mea Salt •Sodium Cumeme Sulfonate •Poly Siloxanes •Palmitic Acid Mea Salt •Calcium Diformate •Oleic Acid Mea Salt •Ethanolamine •Sodium Formate* •Hydrogenated Castor Oil •Protease •Stearic Acid Mea Salt •Sodium Hydroxide •Siloxanes & Silicones •Amylase •Ethyl Hexyl Stearate •PectateLyase •Dimethicone & Simethicone* •Liquitint Dye® •Mannanase •Benzisothiazolinone Product on left is (or was) the most recent (until Tide with Oxi) incarnation of Tide powder detergent. You can see ingredients listed here: tide.com/en-us/about-tide/innova... | ||
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Post# 1003387 , Reply# 45 8/12/2018 at 04:14 (2,076 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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What is interesting
A quick glance shows (unless one is wrong) Tide with "Oxi" does have oxygen bleach (sodium carbonate peroxide), but no bleaching activator.
Meanwhile the Tide powder (on right in your picture) does contain both oxygen bleach and an activator. Go figure. Now to be fair sodium percarbonate is a powerful oxygen bleach in its own right. Often billed as the "cold water oxygen bleach" it will work in lower temps (compared to sodium perborate which needs temps at or >140F to really get going), without necessarily requiring an activator. | ||
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Post# 1003388 , Reply# 46 8/12/2018 at 04:20 (2,076 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Have not tried the new Biz
But am working through a stash of the old stuff and it is great as an enzyme soaker. This and or when you want to whiten/brighten dingy stained wash/remove bad or set in stains.
Mothers, craft persons and others swore by using the old formula Biz for vintage linens, removing old "spew, goo, and poo" stains from baby clothes and so forth. My only issue with Biz (old formula) was it definetaly was meant for top loading washers/soaking. Stuff creates tons of froth and can be difficult to rinse. Tried it once in the Miele and Big Bertha instantly registered her displeasure. *LOL* If you want a laugh, look at how many Tide products EWG rates "D" and "F". It is nearly the entire range. www.ewg.org/guides/brand/... | ||
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Post# 1003441 , Reply# 47 8/12/2018 at 18:57 (2,076 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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I’ve been trying a box of the Tide Ultra Oxi and as far as I can tell it works as well as the discontinued Persia Perls. I’ve only used it with “hot” water — as hot as you can get with a DD Whirlpool with tempered water, so I’m guessing about 110 at the most. I just assumed it would have the low temp bleach activator, but maybe it doesn’t need it.
The only big drawback of the current Biz powder for me is that is has so much washing soda it tends to make fabrics such as towels stiff. It would be nice to find some source for percarbonate alone. | ||
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Post# 1003452 , Reply# 48 8/12/2018 at 21:50 (2,076 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"source for percarbonate alone"
FleaPay,
Chemistrystore.com Along with plenty of others are sources for bulk sodium percarbonate, sodium perborate, STPP, and anything else you fancy. Haven't purchased oxygen bleach from a store in ages. Just stock up from the above named sources. Wait, I told a lie! Did nab a box of Clorox "Dry" bleach of eBay last year. Stuff is discontinued and was a great activated oxygen bleach. One of the few on this side of pond that got around the clutches of P&G's patents on NBOS. Also have a stash of Tide in wash stain booster pods and powder in those orange canisters. Use the former when using a detergent that lacks enzymes and oxygen bleach. The latter is good for same and or as a presoak. As mentioned stash of old Biz came many years ago now, nabbed from Ebay. One can make a great oxygen bleach by combining sodium percarbonate with a bit of phosphates. Sort of the reverse of the cheap "OxiClean" type powders that use lots of sodium carbonate as filler. Biz leaving things harsh/hard. Yes, noticed that with last few batches of the stuff before P&G finally washed their hands of the product. Got it from KMart and the product had a bubblegum/fruity scent that one didn't care for at all. You'll find adding some white vinegar to final rinse water will help with that harshness. It will also help neutralize any remaining oxygen bleach. | ||
| Post# 1003461 , Reply# 49 8/12/2018 at 23:32 (2,075 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Thank you Laundress
For sourcing and providing such great info.
Odd that Tide with Oxi dose not contain the activator! Where as Reguler dose? Whats with P&G? I've got a box of powdered Biz and have some things soaking in buckets...as I have done with OxiClean versital. I'll see if I find a difference between the two? Ive had luck with OxiClean using the bucket method, wringing out, then running through reg wash cycle. Have not used it much in the machine itself. The Biz product asks that you use 1/2 cup to a gallon of water for a presoak....and up to a full cup added to machine WITH added detergent! To me, thats a awful lot of detergent and washing soda added, since the the powdered version of Biz contains both! Wonder if the liquid version has a bleaching effect without the soda? | ||
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Post# 1003473 , Reply# 50 8/13/2018 at 04:11 (2,075 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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If am being honest
Can see why P&G pulled the plug on Biz; it really just isn't necessary any longer.
The product started out as an enzyme pre-soaker, then became a detergent "booster", later an "all fabric bleach", etc... Meanwhile yes, if one adds both Biz and a powdered detergent it is duplicating many ingredients, including washing soda. Looking at ingredient list of old Biz (with oxygen bleach activator)you really don't need anything else. hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/househol... Once P&G created Tide with Bleach, days for Biz were numbered. | ||
| Post# 1003541 , Reply# 51 8/13/2018 at 16:32 (2,075 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Dear, I see what you mean
"Meanwhile yes, if one adds both Biz and a powdered detergent it is duplicating many ingredients, including washing soda"
Thats why I'm reluctant to add to machine, just use a presoak. Same for OxiClean. Spin out or drain from bucket and wash with a little liquid detergent, then rinse in warm to get the stuff out. Just wish there was a ativated oxygen bleach out there with no extra soda added. Short of that, doing as you suggested (pure sodium percarbonate, and a little STPP, with a liquid detergent) should be a better option. Have a freind that swears by liquid detergent with borax added, or a borax presoak. Can't see Borax whitening as well as a oxygen bleach would? | ||
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Post# 1003554 , Reply# 52 8/13/2018 at 17:41 (2,075 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Borax for ages was considered a "mild" bleach
Stuff does release oxygen in water, and is good for removing some stains but overall sodium perborate (borax and hydrogen peroxide) is a better bet.
OTOH the mildness of borax is why you find it in color "protecting" detergents and so forth. It releases just enough oxygen in water to counter chlorine (found in most municipal tap water), but isn't powerful enough to really bleach. www.thoughtco.com/how-doe... Sodium perborate, borax and anything made from same IIRC has been banned by EU for laundry (and maybe other cleaning products). This was done out of environmental and other concerns. This is reason why Persil, Ariel, and other European detergents switched to sodium percarbonate as their oxygen bleaching agent. On this side of pond P&G also moved TWB and other oxygen bleach products or those containing over to sodium percarbonate from perborate. One thing about sodium perborate and borax in general; it can be difficult to rinse from laundry. That was one reason didn't like using Biz, it took far too many rinse cycles to get the stuff out of my wash. | ||
| Post# 1003599 , Reply# 53 8/13/2018 at 21:28 (2,075 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Thanks Laundress
This product...Which I've never even seen before...
Contains washing soda, but appears to at least have a activated oxygen bleach in the form of Sodium percarbonate. Anyone seen or used it?
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Post# 1003613 , Reply# 54 8/13/2018 at 22:23 (2,074 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Washing soda and sodium percarbonate
Yes, but no bleach activator.
www.ewg.org/guides/cleane... www.whatsinproducts.com/types/ty... Does seem the "max" comes from a heavy dosage of OBA (fluorescent whitening agents). Here is what one is speaking of; excuse tacky YouTube video: Product wasn't out long, but was a great performer and beat "OxiClean" by miles. Notice unlike Clorox2 this "dry bleach" made strong claims about whitening. As well it should; stuff was loaded with oxygen bleach and activator and am here to tell you is powerful. | ||
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Post# 1003615 , Reply# 55 8/13/2018 at 22:42 (2,074 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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| Post# 1003619 , Reply# 56 8/13/2018 at 23:37 (2,074 days old) by Stan (Napa CA) | ||
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Well I was hoping!
Found this on the net, which backs up what Laundress has stated.
So maybe Clorax 2 Stain Remover and Color Booster Powder? Still would be stuck with washing soda! 😕
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Post# 1003628 , Reply# 57 8/14/2018 at 01:12 (2,074 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Post# 1003631 , Reply# 58 8/14/2018 at 01:29 (2,074 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Sadly Stan
Options for oxygen bleach (with or without activators) for domestic use that do not contain sodium carbonate (soda ash), and or other fillers such as sodium bicarbonate, sodium chloride, sodium sulfate, etc... are nearly nil in this country. Even across the pond things are grim.
In theory alkaline pH levels do give better performance with oxygen bleaches. But that really applied mostly to sodium perborate, this thanks to the base substance(borax) being a rather mild. Sodium percarbonate is made from washing soda and thus provides all the alkaline base it needs. It breaks down in water to oxygen, water and sodium carbonate. Being as this may product makers can stretch sodium percarbonate by adding various levels of soda. www.umich.edu/~chemstu/content_we... | ||
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