Thread Number: 6269
Deep Action Agitator |
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Post# 127501 , Reply# 2   5/9/2006 at 01:47 (6,534 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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First of all, welcome! I am fairly new here myself, and have been made to feel very welcome - as I am sure you will be, too. Top or front is a very hotly debated question. There are so many different types of top loader today, but let's just talk about the "classic" US type with an agitator in the middle. Front loaders in the US right now seem to be locked in a mad race to see who can use the least water, never mind cleaning clothes, so let's talk about their European cousins. FL take 4 to 5 times as long to wash, rinse and spin. Their slow heating of the water and long period of tumbling is exactly the washing pattern which oxygen bleaches and enzyme detergents (that is, modern detergents) need to clean their best. They also rinse several times and spin 3 times faster then the US top-loaders, eliminating most of the water and getting an awful lot of residual dirt and detergent out. Their energy consumption is, despite the longer wash time, less than TLs because they use much less water and the drier clothes need 1/2 as long in the dryer - the real dollar eater. This takes a good 30 minutes off their longer wash times, but they still take a very long time. They use way less water to wash the same amount of clothes. This doesn't mean much to folks on the east coast, but in the west where water bills are often hundreds of dollars in the summer months, this could make the decision easy. As I said though - they take much longer to wash. My LG needs over 1 1/2 hours to do a normal load. Some people argue that FLs can wash more than a TL at one time. This is not true. They can wash bulky things like pillows and comforters (sleeping bags especially) which TL can't. But their real capacity is always set about 20% lower than their rated capacity by all independent testing institutes. Top Loaders have a time advantage. They are easier to load and unload. Some have a gentle agitation which makes them suitable for real hand-washables, but most are too aggressive. They usually do a much better job with cat and horse hair then FLs do, but they all do an incomparably worse job with sand than FLs do. In fact, if you have trouble with sand, you pretty much have to buy a FL. If you have trouble with animal hair, forget FLs, get a TL with a good filter. The truth of the matter is, TLs have never been popular anywhere except the US/Canada and to a lesser extent Australia. Everybody else in the world prefers modern FLs because energy and water cost so much outside of the US that the time question doesn't even matter. I don't know why US manufacturers stopped making such wonderful machines as the Frigidaire pulsators. They had all the advantages of agitator based TLs but used much less water, were much easier on clothes, cleaned much better, spun out more water and were much sturdier and better built than anything US makers have on the market today. Maybe that's the reason? The US manufacturers today aren't interested in anything but short term profit. If I had to buy a new machine in the US right now, I would find a traditional Frigidaire (maybe not a rollermatic :-). If it had to be new, then I would buy an LG or Miele front loader. I don't like replacing things every three years. Hope that helps a little. Other opinions? |
Post# 127503 , Reply# 3   5/9/2006 at 02:22 (6,534 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 127505 , Reply# 4   5/9/2006 at 02:50 (6,534 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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I think, on average, that US toploaders spin a maximum of about 600 rpm. So Kevin's statement of euro FL's spinning three times the rate of US toploaders would hold true, on average. I think however that the US/Canada and Australia are not the only places where top loaders have been more popular than front loaders. My observation is that top loaders are more popular in Japan and in Mexico, and possibly in India as well. Anyway, the pulsating Frigidaire washer was phased out when GM sold off its appliance division to White Consolidated Industries back around the late 1970's. Unfortunately only the name went, not the factories, which were shut down or perhaps converted to other purposes. I guess GM figured that the golden age of home appliances or "white goods" was over, and that from there on out it would be a race to see who could build the flimsiest machines the cheapest. In other words, washers became more commodities than mechanical marvels and industrial sculpture. Additionally I beleive the Frigidaire washer design was more expensive to manufacture than other, simpler designs. WCI slapped the Frigidaire name on prosaic traditional back and forth agitator washers, and aside from the script nothing was quite the same since. I assume that GM held onto the patents for the pulsator washer. I also assume that it was only the solid-tub models that had the best water efficiency - since they didn't lose wash water to the outer tub like perforated tub models do. And I guess solid tub models went out for their own reasons, which may have included more difficult service access and more expensive manufacturing cost (harder to create a water-tight rust-proof outer cabinet than a simple outer tub, perhaps). |
Post# 127511 , Reply# 5   5/9/2006 at 05:19 (6,533 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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You are right, of course. No front loader spins faster than 1800 (to my knowledge). Even spin-dryers top out at about 2800... But current, standard, normal, can be bought anywhere in the US non-top-of-the-line-absolute-luxurious-top-loaders range from the low 300s to around 600 tops. I assumed the question pertained to normal machines purchased by typical consumers. Since the Oasis is being phased out for quality problems beyond number, it is pointless to discuss its otherwise very fine qualities - which are many. If it had been built by Fisher & Paykel, no doubt they would have done it right. But we won't talk about Sear's source for this, um, er---innovative---product. Fisher & Paykel are worth the - for what you are getting - only slightly higher price. *If* you can get them. If anybody knows a source in Northern Colorado (and I don't mean with 150$ shipping) I would love to hear it. |
Post# 127512 , Reply# 6   5/9/2006 at 05:25 (6,533 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I limited my discussion to the traditional US agitator type of machine. I don't know anything about Mexico, but most Japanese machines use TLs which are only similar to their US version in where the lid is placed. I have never seen an agitator washer in India, but my knowlege of this sub-continent is limited - it is truly a country where seeing one place does not mean you have seen all. There are lots of TLs which wash with the same type of tumbling drum which FLs traditionally use - they have the advantage of being easy to load and empty which the conventional TLs have (and you can interupt their wash program without getting wet feet.) Does anyone know of a TL which does better on sand than my own negative experiences? (I lived on the beach in California for a while, that is the source of my observations.) |
Post# 127532 , Reply# 9   5/9/2006 at 08:06 (6,533 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Designgeek is right - you need to relearn everything with FLs. I truly wish folks would take note: I love the "true" Frigidaires. I grew up with a Unimatic. But I also was responsible for the laundry rooms of several rental properties while at CSU. They all had Frigidaires. All the Unimatics ran like a dream - despite their ages. The rollermatics were just plain not as reliable. Anyone who wants to tell me that a rollermatic was as well built and stable as a Unimatic is welcome to try, but you're talkin' to a guy who dealt with both, ok? Sheesh. The mere fact that I can tell the difference between a multi- roller-, uni- and 1-18 should say something about my affections - if I didn't love these beauties, I would not be so critical of the rollermatic's shortcomings. 'Nough said. This was a thread on what is better, FLs or TLs... |
Post# 127548 , Reply# 11   5/9/2006 at 10:27 (6,533 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I believe I read this in one of our fora here, actually. Certainly lots of folks have good things to say about them, but the posting mentioned quite a few problems. We shall see - perhaps I misread, perhaps they were only start-up problems - Kenmore has always insisted on higher quality than Whirlpool delivers under their own name (which is not hard). If I had me druthers, I'd have our old Unimatic back. If one of the beautiful men who can take a rollermatic apart with their eyes closed lived next door to me, I'd take one of them, too - it would be a great reason to have them over and on their knees... often. Those rollers need cleaning 'pretty near every other wash. (This was an exaggeration. Please do not flame me for this. I know very well that the nylon rollers - unless damaged - only needed cleaning every other year or so). Since I live in Europe where TLs with agitators are virtually unknown (and my folks are in Colorado, where water costs so much you don't even want to know), I guess I am stuck with FLs. |
Post# 127576 , Reply# 12   5/9/2006 at 13:20 (6,533 days old) by cvillewasherbo ()   |   | |
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are you sure that the oasis is being phased out (haven't heard a peep about that) or are you confusing it with the calypso? |
Post# 127589 , Reply# 13   5/9/2006 at 14:56 (6,533 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Yeah, how can the Oasis be "phased out" when it has barely been "phased in?" And the Cabrio sibling hasn't debuted at all .. or has it? F&P dealer search returns 72 listings in Colorado. Can't guarantee they're all valid, F&P tends to not keep the database updated. Lowe's handles F&P. There are no Lowe's stores in Colorado? CLICK HERE TO GO TO dadoes's LINK |
Post# 127616 , Reply# 15   5/9/2006 at 17:22 (6,533 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 127627 , Reply# 16   5/9/2006 at 18:44 (6,533 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Thanks Nathan, I will keep it brief. Yup, I do say what I think and feel - and am very happy to hear from others. I probably did get the Calypso confused, will look tomorrow. I have 230 V here in Germany, the heating times are really very long - we only use 10A heating for our washers for historical reasons, not 16 as we did prior to 1989 (GDR, aluminum wiring). So those long heating times are a genuine issue here. And I was discussing these both as a nuisance as well as a very clear advantage - enzymes and oxygen bleaches respond best to a longer rise in heat. I would love to pursue the "simplistic" ideas, and will try to open a thread in that direction over in Super tomorrow. I never cease to wonder how passionate we all can feel about these things. Ok, Peter - you can open your eyes now. I'm out of this thread. If anyone wants to e-mail me, you have my address. |
Post# 127717 , Reply# 19   5/10/2006 at 06:07 (6,532 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 127727 , Reply# 20   5/10/2006 at 07:56 (6,532 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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...and these shorter times matched the heating time we saw in Germany before 1989. I guess it is time to explain in detail. Prior to German reunification, East Germany used aluminum wiring and their washing machines were designed to run on 6 or 10 amp circuits at 220V. West Germany (where I lived) used either 3 phase á 16 amp/leg or single phase 220V 16amp heating. In other words, virtually the same as the UK and Australia. Domestic manufacturers had always offered lower wattage elements for special needs, so it was not a big problem to either convert 16 amps machines to 10 amp (some had two elements and could thus be throttled back). For the now united and burgeoning inter-German market, all machines sold in the country were knocked down to about 2000 to 2200 Watts (that would be about 2300W today with the step up to 230V). This is why it is not possible to compare the heating times here to those elsewhere. My 1978 Miele 3-Phase was super fast; my current LG has (effectively) not even 1/4 the current for heating available to it. Simple math: 240V X 16 Amp = 3840W. 230V (nominal, closer to 215 in München) 230V X 10 Amp = 2300W. So - enjoy your English speaking machines, but yes - ours are slower to achieve the same temperatures. If anyone using 10amp heating at 230V has a different opinion, please do chime in - maybe all the washing machines I sold in the early 90's were absolut exceptions, all 2.000+ of them. |
Post# 127738 , Reply# 21   5/10/2006 at 08:53 (6,532 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)   |   | |
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Post# 127744 , Reply# 22   5/10/2006 at 09:48 (6,532 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Post# 127822 , Reply# 24   5/10/2006 at 14:11 (6,532 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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...that my LG here uses much more water and takes longer to heat than the nominally same model my cousin has in the 'States. Why are we arguing this, anyway? Any comparison we make will still result in verifying that FLs which heat their own water take longer to wash than TLs which do not. Heavens above! I'd rather we enjoy our common hobby and interest than indulge in one of these discussions straight out of Hegel... And to put an end to it, I now officially declare that whatever statement you make to this end (excepting contra-positives) is more correct than mine. Keven |
Post# 127840 , Reply# 26   5/10/2006 at 15:06 (6,532 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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my LG needs to wash. Jon, I spent years selling Miele and AEG and BOSCH/SIEMENS/CONSTRUCTA - everything from late 40's to 1992. Each and every model year had variations which were either not important enough to document or somehow just slipped through. Your Miele will outlive my LG by decades... It has been kind of a difficult week for everybody I know, probably not improved my not exactly great tolerance for people who dare to disagree with my pronouncements. Sorry I was igonoring your ideas - I was, but not to be nasty. Kiss and make up? |
Post# 127845 , Reply# 27   5/10/2006 at 15:48 (6,532 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)   |   | |
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Of course!!!!!! *mwah*. |