Thread Number: 63250  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Maytag Dishwasher control panel
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Post# 858339   12/25/2015 at 19:33 (664 days old) by cam2s (Nebraska)        

As I was packing to go home for the holidays, my Grandma told me to pack my screwdrivers because the control panel on her dishwasher was coming loose. (It is a 3-4 year old Point Voyager Maytag) Once I got it apart I realized that the plastic had cracked on the side and the screw posts that hold the control panel to the door liner were snapping apart. Again this machine is only 3 or 4 years old so a bit disappointing, especially since my 20 some year old Maytag made Maytag is chugging along My first gen Point Voyager KitchenAid also has not had any problems like this either. I think part of the problem is how the latch assembly is set up. This particular machine has the same latch as the models that had the top controls and the big grab handle...in this case there is no unlatching button to push you just grab it and pull, there is a spring in it and you have to overcome to force of the spring to open the door. In the control top models though the metal door panel runs the full length of the door so the grab bar is screwed into that metal panel which itself is attached to the metal door frame so all the force is routed through stronger parts. In Grandma's machine, you have to pull on the plastic control panel so the stress of overcoming the spring is being applied to the plastic panel. My KitchenAid has a latching mechanism, you push the button and it unlatches so all the force is applied to the button and not the entire panel. I know several other people here have these Point Voyager Maytag, has anybody else had this experience or was this just a fluke?

Cameron


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Post# 858389 , Reply# 1   12/26/2015 at 07:03 (664 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
My Maytag point voyager

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is around 1.5 yrs old. It also does not have a latching mechanism that you unlock, but you have to pull..But you don't have to pull super hard..Geez, I hope this problem doesn't develop in my machine in the future.

Post# 858391 , Reply# 2   12/26/2015 at 07:34 (664 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Planned obsolescence

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And I'll bet the control panels are NLA


Post# 858417 , Reply# 3   12/26/2015 at 11:24 (663 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I dunno, maybe just a fluke?

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I don't shut mine all the way between washes - like if I add a dirty dishes but not washing that day because it's not full, I don't close it all the way. I always leave it cracked unless I'm closing it to wash or opening it to unload or let dry. But just now, I tried opening it by grabbing the sides without touching the control panel and I could...

What does NLA mean?


Post# 858424 , Reply# 4   12/26/2015 at 12:18 (663 days old) by LaVidaBoem (South Carolina)        
NLA>>

lavidaboem's profile picture
Hey Mark,

Means No Longer Available,

Eddy


Post# 858433 , Reply# 5   12/26/2015 at 12:59 (663 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Oh

mark_wpduet's profile picture
LOL! Thanks.....I think these control panels are all available but they are expensive. My last Whirlpool point voyager lasted over 9 years with zero problems. 9 years isn't horribly long but it isn't that bad for a modern appliance I guess. But at 3 or 4 years and something so STUPID as a door panel falling off from pulling it open the way it was designed would piss me off.

Post# 858435 , Reply# 6   12/26/2015 at 13:36 (663 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

It reminds me certain president at my room's door yelling "meeting room.... NOW" and that horrible face...

I swallow dry, slowly close my laptop computer, and walk behind him. (at this point I realize we're all going to need new underwear)

In the hallway, i see all my close coworkers and other executives... For some reason the designers and engineers look desperate, the executives have rolling eyes.


Meeting starts..


Gentlemen, didn't we agree on 8 years? Why the f***ing hell there are several 15 year old LE 750 and LE1000 running out there? and there are consumers calling to thank us! They're not even yellowed or rusted! Who had the F***ing stupid idea to use F***ing NGK bearings? Don't you understand we're not the F***ing Mother Theresa of F***ing Calcuta?

LQ11 8 years.... eight yeaaars, did you understand? do I need to draw? 3000 f***ing cycles! and forget those two F***ing screws on the lid. Use the f***ing Sikaflex! If everything goes f***ing wrong at least the F***ing Sikaflex will dry and the F***ing lid glass will F***ing fall. If you don't F***ing know how to do that go back to the F***ing college!

Adhaury, show them the F***ing graphics... what will be the losses if the F***ing LQ11 lasts 9 years.... 10 years... 12 years?


See, gentleman? We're talking about losses, not about profit! The f***ing executives want my f***ing head on a f***ing tray in a f***ing icon oven if we continue making f***ing programming mistakes. We're not in f***ing 1990 anymore! Wake up f***ing idiots! What you're doing is a f***ing suicide! You're F***ing trying to destroy this F***ing company and be F***ing unemployed!

Now get your f***ing asses out of here and do what you got to do! F***!

As far as I remember, this was the meeting where I've heard the longest sequence of F-word ever. He was totally out of control and the only thing I could have in my mind was... "What the F*** is he doing?" Nowadays, i "F***ing" understand he was "F***ing" right. (and my LQ11 is 13 years old and running F***ing well, but totally yellowed.. Oh, and as soon as MY unit arrived, i put the two F***ing screws that made a F***ing difference. The lid is ok until now.


Thinking of (f***ing) you.


Post# 858438 , Reply# 7   12/26/2015 at 13:57 (663 days old) by LaVidaBoem (South Carolina)        
What a Foul Mouth "Damp Back">>

lavidaboem's profile picture

Hey Ortaygiie...

 

What's up with the Foul Mouth from Hell??

 

When you drop in LA, why don't you come to 'here' for a while...

Me a few Jew Boys, and a Couple of Brothers would like to check your NGK washers...

 

Give you a Free adjustment.

 

Hugs & Kisses

LaVidaBoem


Post# 858449 , Reply# 8   12/26/2015 at 14:41 (663 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Thanks for the invitation but No one touches my "washers". That's why they're intact since they were "manufactured" and they will still intact.

Not even my husband can touch them... (Unless he decides to use this as a painful suicide technique)

It's obvious I won't take my washing machines with me (Except the Brastemp Eggo)

Anyway, when it's possible, Darryl and I will be glad to visit you and your friends. Oh, and I don't care if they are Jew or Catholic or Atheist, black, white, or blue with pink speckles. We're all humans, we're all only one. ;)

Tom


By the way, my last name isn't that difficult to spell.... Ortega (Soon Ortega-Banton)



Post# 858462 , Reply# 9   12/26/2015 at 16:56 (663 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Yep -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I'm sure meetings go like this...But planned obsolescence = bad reliability = bad name. Do they not take this into consideration when engineering things to fail too soon? Pissed off customer upset that their oven/dishwasher/fridge died too soon - pissed off customer spreads the word to not buy anything made by Whirlpool - that would = losses as well.

Post# 858469 , Reply# 10   12/26/2015 at 17:31 (663 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I think this was one of the reasons behind moving to the slimmer 2.5 inch panel. The panels on those earlier Maytags and Whirlpools caused the handle to be too far away from the latch. You were practically pulling from the middle of the door panel. My granddad's Kenmore Elite has the handle above the panel, which makes more sense because it's right at the latch.

Mark, I don't think you'll have to worry about it on yours, because the handle was made more sturdy and it's closer to the top, which is closer to the point of tension of the latch and spring. It's the same idea as a refrigerator handle; if the handle were in the middle of the door, it would take more force to open and the stress would be concentrated on the panel itself rather than the edge of the door frame where the seal is causing resistance.


Post# 858497 , Reply# 11   12/26/2015 at 20:14 (663 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Thanks Andrew

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(relieved). I was all set to start opening it by grabbing the sides LOL

Post# 858510 , Reply# 12   12/26/2015 at 20:53 (663 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture
What does the "Point Voyager" mean ?

Is it a style of machine ?


Post# 858525 , Reply# 13   12/26/2015 at 22:27 (663 days old) by cam2s (Nebraska)        

I believe that Point Voyager is simply the internal designation Whirlpool gave to this design of dishwashers. The last series of machines were designated as Power Clean dishwashers, although I do believe they actually badged the first ones they made as Power Clean dishwashers. If you do a google search for Point Voyager dishwasher or Power Clean dishwasher you can find the technical literature that explains how the mechanism works and how to fix most of the major components.

Many car manufactures give their cars internal designations as well in addition to the actual names that they are badged as. For example my 2005 Mercedes C230 is internally designed as a W203, and if you really want to get into the nitty gritty it employs the M271 engine.


Post# 858527 , Reply# 14   12/26/2015 at 22:55 (663 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
epoxy for plastic....

you could actually mend/strengthen those stress areas with epoxy....


for a similar issue with a door, I was able to add a strip of metal for reinforcement to the 'pulling area' imbedded with the epoxy....works like a charm...


Post# 858557 , Reply# 15   12/27/2015 at 05:12 (663 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

I can say what I've seen from inside the second largest manufacturer in brazil (and at that time, the biggest in the world)

Everybody does the same. There's no "competition" between brand A and B at this point.

The wheel needs to continue spinning. Consumers will be pissed off, and buy other brand, have the same issues and come back to the first brand, then they'll realize all the brands are the same. While that, people will need to do laundry, do dishes, store food in a cold place, cook.... so they will continue buying.


It's sad and i don't agree with that but a company that produces something really reliable nowadays is commiting suicide.


Post# 858569 , Reply# 16   12/27/2015 at 08:02 (663 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Why hasn't this always been the case then?

mark_wpduet's profile picture
In the 1970s, 80s, even 90s, appliances were very reliable. So then why was planned obsolescence not in full swing then? Surely by the 1980s and 90s, companies considered this, so then why did they not design them to fail then?

Post# 858595 , Reply# 17   12/27/2015 at 10:47 (662 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
well, you have to figure in during these early years, it was about quality and dependability, getting your money's worth......old school, and run by old timers from the earlier years......

now factor in the next generation, and their way of thinking, and wanting new stuff all the time, like a new car traded in every two years, but there is not exactly a trade in area for appliances, just replacement......add in from companies way of thinking to produce how many more appliances to sell, the more they fail, the more they sell, the more profit they make.....its all about money...

I was told many years ago, an example was Maytag, once the older guys retired and died off, that company will be gone in about 10 years, those repairmen were right!....the das of quality and testing before releasing a machine into the field are long gone.....just produce and put it out there, we'll figure out issues later.....at the customers expense.....

too many factors come in to play for what the future holds, and its only going to get worse.....

I really think on some items, like printers and DVD players, that there is a self destruct built inside....it will last a certain amount of time, and then be gone....off to get a new one, again


Post# 858612 , Reply# 18   12/27/2015 at 13:19 (662 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Makes total sense to me

mark_wpduet's profile picture
But I do not think they plan it to fail that fast, 3 or 4 years. I read average life span of a dishwasher is 11 years. I'm thinking that, like Andrew said, this was something they redesigned because of problems like this in the earlier generation point voyager models. In this case, I think this was something they fixed in later models and wasn't a part of their designed planned obsolescence. My OLD 2005 Point Voyager that I got 9.2 years out of - the motor just started sounding like a horrible grinding sound...And I took great care of that machine over the years.....so that was probably designed to go out..I can live with a dishwasher lasting 9 years..as long as new ones aren't total crap performers.

Post# 858632 , Reply# 19   12/27/2015 at 15:53 (662 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Engineering

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From my engineering experience at a handful of companies through the years, there are two themes that seem familiar everywhere I go.
As long as the engineers do not pass through their fixed cost allowances, most of them really want to make the best product they can.
The company has absolutely no interest in designing something the last any longer than the warranty, for however long that is for said product.
If any of my fellow engineers have designs that are too expensive, they are immediately told to cheapen it out. Sometimes you can add money in places and take it away and others that don't matter. And then it works out.
In other areas if they can make a very robust design without being too expensive then the company really does not care.
Sometimes designs are lifted from other models or products and pasted in, with the assumption that they will be OK. Usually the engineers are right, sometimes they're wrong and a customer gets burned.

A lot of times marketing will dictate features or demand features taken away which could affect other parts of a product. These can have negative or positive consequences. Sometimes it's no big deal but a lot of times there's no time to repair the design before it goes to market.

Just installing my own GE dishwasher a month ago, I could see some of this evidence. There were some real smartly designed items. There were other things that look too rushed, other areas were manufacturing might've screwed up. And other areas where parts were clearly cost reduced but still seem OK.

Just my experience.


Post# 858634 , Reply# 20   12/27/2015 at 15:56 (662 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Planned Obsolescence

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PS... I can honestly say I have never been in a situation where we were told to make something last a certain period of time.
I've never known a coworker or have never seen a manager dictate planned obsolescence.
It does not mean it doesn't happen, but I do not think it is as widespread as some people think.



Post# 858673 , Reply# 21   12/27/2015 at 20:28 (662 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

John, sorry to ask.... Do you work in the appliances industry?

I worked for decades designing for that company that is always "thinking of you".

During the 80's and 90's, programmed obsolescence was unthinkable, at least in our plant.

In 1999 we could start hearing one or other comment about it. But it was always very discreet. (usually a closed meeting with the 5 "top")

In 2001 things started to be more open...

In 2005 the only thing that the company didn't have was a huge banner in the R&D lab saying "remember it has to be a crap".

In 2007, that "F-word" meeting happened.

When i realized, the test lab wasn't being used to test the appliances... well, yes, we tested them, but not to enhance the performance or the durability. It was to test the durability and make sure it wouldnt last more than the planned.


Post# 858704 , Reply# 22   12/28/2015 at 00:09 (662 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Industry

johnb300m's profile picture
I'm not in the appliance business per-se, but many of my sister companies make household gadgets and small appliances as well as home safety devices.
I've been in hand tools, furniture and aviation before consumer electronics.

I'm sorry that company you were at was like that. It sounds horrible and I hope the market forces treat them as intended.
Again though, luckily, that hammer has never come down on my engineering teams.
We certainly have costs and budgets to keep. But if we can muster up some physics magic to make it last 10 years with our allotted resources, .... great!
If not? Well, it just needs to withstand the warranty period dictated by marketing.


Post# 858803 , Reply# 23   12/28/2015 at 16:10 (661 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture

I was told by a long time sales person that when Whirlpool purchased the Kitchenaid name, the first thing they did was have a meeting to find out why there were still 30 year old Kitchenaid dishwashers running out there. 

 

Decision was made to stop supplying repair parts--Problems solved.

 

I understand the same decision was made when the Maytag name was acquired, and I was told "We will not support any machine/appliance over 10 years old."  

 

 


Post# 858829 , Reply# 24   12/28/2015 at 18:12 (661 days old) by cam2s (Nebraska)        
Well I went in and talked to our local repair guy....

He said you have to buy the entire control panel, at a cost of $150. I would try epoxy but there is such a small surface area on those screw post to put the epoxy don't know if it would hold. I guess it's grandmas machine I'll have to see what she wants to do.

Post# 858841 , Reply# 25   12/28/2015 at 19:06 (661 days old) by LaVidaBoem (South Carolina)        
Maytag Console>>

lavidaboem's profile picture

Hello Cam2s,

 

Is this the one?

 

Good Luck

LaVidaBoem



CLICK HERE TO GO TO LaVidaBoem's LINK

  View Full Size


This post was last edited 12/28/2015 at 21:42
Post# 858843 , Reply# 26   12/28/2015 at 19:10 (661 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        
"Thinking of you"

Well no wonder their products seem like the cheapest crap on the market, Whirlpool being right behind them IMO.

I've had issues with a certain Fruit phone since their last year release with quality. They pump them out so quick they don't care about quality so much and then rely on their great warranty service to take care of all the defective ones out there....that the consumer actually realizes is defective....and actually takes the time to make a stink about...of course bothering to do so is at the customers expense. Very aggravating when paying ridiculous prices and then being given something that should be absolutely perfect but isn't, and then being told my expectations are "too high" or "don't examine it so closely you're bound to find things wrong!". Well of course I will examine it closely it's a $900 device and I expect to get what I pay for!!


Post# 858875 , Reply# 27   12/28/2015 at 22:58 (661 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Repair parts

johnb300m's profile picture
I almost feel dirty even saying this.....but in WP's defense, it's prohibitively expensive to keep available all those repair parts for all those products and variants they sell. It's almost dizzying to comprehend all the stock space and tooling storage/maintenance to keep all those parts available for 30+ years.
Of course that's different if you decide on using the same interchangeable design for certain things over 30+ years. But the way technology changes now, and how many appliance companies don't make their own parts anymore, but rely on suppliers......I can see going past 10 years being almost unmanageable.

HOWEVER! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! On the game LG and Samsung seem to play where they constantly change the designs of parts and appliances, and then just totally drop support and availability after a measly 2 years!
I've heard this same story now from a Home Depot sales guy, and a Lowe's sales guy.
It's so bad, that HD and Lowe's have begun stockpiling their own parts supplies for Korean appliances.
(Which seems insane to me then, why they peddle the Korean crap so hard).
(Have any of you in the industry heard of this????? Please corroborate.)

10 years seems about right to me though, all around. But not a single day less!





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