Thread Number: 63347  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Life with the GE Profile DW, 2016
[Down to Last]'s exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items
Post# 859297   12/31/2015 at 13:21 (571 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Just moved in, and started doing light washes of all my packed Dishware.
First impressions, this thing is very quiet.
Quite well built.
But the very hard water here is a challenge. There is a water softener but it is broken of course.
So I've been washing everything with Lemishine and it has been performing perfectly.
I've used the bottle just already, and they seem to work great. Because they spray against the ceiling when unused, they do make a little additional noise when the top zone is running.
You can hear when the bottom wash armory versus as well, because it starts to slosh at a faster rhythm.
So far it's rotation seems to be; standard lower wash arm, upper wash zone, back down to the bottom and it in reverse. And then repeat .
Not cooking in the new house yet, so nothing really soiled, but my black and slate dishes look too sexy in this machine, so I had to share!

Can't wait to Bobload this thing with filthy cookware soon!

Post# 859318 , Reply# 1   12/31/2015 at 16:03 (571 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
A very gorgeous machine!! I'll be honest, I've never been a fan of GE, but their new dishwasher design has actually sparked my interest the past few years. If not for the love I have for Whirlpool already, the new GE's would be a close second decision.

The way you describe the sounds is very similar to my new Whirlpool. If there is any sound at all in the house, you can't hear the machine even the slightest. In order to figure out the changes in wash action I have to silence the house and sit right in front of it on the floor. Really, the loudest sound it ever makes is when it activates the TargetClean zone at the back, because if the water can make it to the door unblocked, it's like someone holding a shower nozzle against the door. Otherwise, the only way to tell what is going on is to press your ear against the door, and then you can hear the sloshing and spraying pretty well, although muffled. The lower wash arm on mine changes rhythm as well when the spray pattern changes, which is kinda cool to listen to.

Overall, looks to be quite a nice addition to your kitchen! Make sure to post pictures of the first BobLoad you put it through. :D

Post# 859332 , Reply# 2   12/31/2015 at 17:37 (571 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        
Very Nice!

joeypete's profile picture
I've used GE dishwashers mostly over the past 16 years and really they've performed great. I never used one with SS interior though. When I bought my Frigidaire in 2014 after buying by condo, I looked at the GE's (with plastic interior) and I liked the Frigidaire felt more solid. But should I get a new dishwasher...I'd very much steer towards one like yours. They are very beautiful machines.

Post# 859356 , Reply# 3   12/31/2015 at 19:14 (570 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI)        

Are you still in the Chicago area? I'm guessing the suburbs on some sort of well water fed house or municipal system if so. Lake Michigan water is at the bottom of the "hard" category around 8 GPG which never has wreaked any havoc anywhere but the showerhead for me.

Post# 859603 , Reply# 4   1/2/2016 at 09:37 (569 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Thanks for the compliments! I'm really liking this machine as it's the nicest DW I've ever used; being relegated to Rental Specials most of my life (sans my parents' nice machines).
It's not perfect.... The wash motor has an electrical whine to it from being a brush-style (but its powerful!)
The clips in the top rack sometimes impede on glassware placement. The top rack corners are a little weak (typical IME). The mesh filter doesn't come out AS clean as Andrew's Whirlpool. GE recommends cleaning it every 2 months or so.
Otherwise it's great so far!
The plastic tub GEs have gotten a bad wrap for poor drying. Which I can confirm, from the lousy drying in my parents' GDF540.
But the full stainless interior on the PDT and its little fan really help drying performance. Ive only used Heated Dry once, and EVERYTHING was dry after the 1hr dry time, even plastics! (Minus the concave cup tops and lid lips of course). Since the majority of loads will dry overnight, I'll likely use Heat Dry very little.

I'm still learning loading and water/detergent conditions.
Yes, gusherb, I'm in the west Chicago burbs JUST outside the Lake Michigan watershed. So we're on a municipal well..... With 25GPG!!!
The water softener that came with the house is 10+yrs old and barely works from severe neglect of NO cleaning or running empty of salt. I've cleaned it several times and I got it to limp along; giving me water barely down to Lake quality ..... I'm guessing around 10-15 GPG.
It's still hard, but better.
So far my mix of Seventh Generation powder, Lemishine pre wash, and Jet Dry turned up 3/4 way had really helped the PDT720 trudge through the onslaught of calcium and magnesium.

Post# 859639 , Reply# 5   1/2/2016 at 14:26 (569 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I would love if the WP had a fan for drying, but despite having no vent at all, I was impressed by how dry everything was after a cycle with no heated dry, when I forgot about it and never propped it open overnight. There was more "spotting" on the door, though very faint, but all the glassware was gleaming and dry. Only the Glad containers with the recessed bottoms had residual water.

And believe me, I was fully expecting the filter to be grimy or at least have grit embedded in the mesh. I still keep checking it after every cycle because I'm still skeptical, haha.

Our water here in Huntsville is so-so as far as hardness. Not hard enough to leave any bad residues but just hard enough that our shower and faucet fixtures will get calcium deposits after a while. I've found that I actually like the Jet-Dry solid rinse aid baskets that you just hang somewhere out of the way in the racks, because it just gently releases throughout the entire cycle, which also helps soften the water for the detergent to work better, and yet it doesn't leave any sort of smell or residue afterwards, and glassware and the interior and such are all squeaky clean. I always just turn my dispenser down to the lowest setting whenever I have it in. Just a thought. :D

Post# 859700 , Reply# 6   1/2/2016 at 22:47 (568 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Solid JetDry

johnb300m's profile picture
Where on earth do you find solid JetDry?!
I haven't seen that stuff in ANY store since the 90s!

Post# 859939 , Reply# 7   1/4/2016 at 06:04 (567 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

has it. I looked at a box tonight while I was there, 2 to a box.


Post# 859979 , Reply# 8   1/4/2016 at 09:54 (567 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Well that's awesome!
Yea I haven't been to Walmart in YEARS so maybe that's why I have not seen them.
I'll have to try those and see how they do in my water least till I replace the softener.

Post# 859980 , Reply# 9   1/4/2016 at 10:36 (567 days old) by mamapinky (blairsville pa)        

I also use the Jet-Dry baskets..they are very hard to find and I've only found one super Walmart anywhere near that carrys them and even they are usually sold out. Cheryl

Post# 859983 , Reply# 10   1/4/2016 at 10:59 (567 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
JetDry baskets

johnb300m's profile picture
I don't understand why stores don't stock more of these?
Dispensers break. Many are not adjustable for very harsh water conditions. AND, they all seem to have stellar reviews online....
You'd think stores would want to stock moving items...

Post# 860022 , Reply# 11   1/4/2016 at 15:13 (567 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I've also seen and purchased them at Target and Publix here, maybe it's a regional thing or something? I dunno. But if all else, I'm sure Amazon would be another option. I'm not a fan of supporting them or big stores like Walmart but if they're the only choices left, what can ya do.

But yes, I originally decided to try the baskets because I wasn't sure whether the dispenser in the PowerClean was working, until I was able to take the door apart and check and test the wax motors, and found they were in perfect order. I continued to use it because our water seems to have "seasons" where it can seem harder than other times, also affecting the washer and making me adjust detergent. I've tried researching our water ratings and contacting HSV Utilities to no avail. The test sheets give all manner of numbers, but none that specify GPG. In all reality, it's only a marginal variation, but either way I'll pop the basket in when the previous load showed signs of spotting, or I'll adjust the dispenser. The PC had no adjustment so it was either in or out.

I put the unused one I had in the new Whirlpool for the last two loads and turned the dispenser down to 1, just to see how it would do with the low water system and SS interior. Dishes are still spotless and aqueaky, and still didn't notice any off smell or anything, so it should if nothing else just soften the water a bit more throughout the entire cycle for your GE, at least until you get the water softener worked out.

Best of luck!

Post# 860031 , Reply# 12   1/4/2016 at 16:11 (567 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Jet-Dry solid

iheartmaytag's profile picture

Died away because most new machines do have a dispenser, and I imagine that people were finding in machines with longer wash times that the solid was dissolving and needing to be replaced more often. 


When I had a BOL GE portable, no dispenser; I used the solid and was very happy with it.   Last year when my Kitchenaid needed to have the dispenser replaced because it was using a months worth of rinse aid in one wash I just opted to just put a squirt in the dispenser when I filled the detergent and used it that way until service could get out.   It was under service contract, but the "cost" was $175 on the invoice. 


He actually gave me the old one in case it had problems again out of warranty, as sometimes just a spring needs to be replaced, others just a O-ring.


Post# 860170 , Reply# 13   1/5/2016 at 03:38 (566 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Hey Andrew

askolover's profile picture

Does Huntsville's water come from the TN river like Florence's does?  Ours here comes from the Duck River and it's around 7-8 GPG.  I'd dare say yours would be similar.  Before the water softener we had those nice mineral crystals on all the faucets and showerheads.  I recall when I lived in Huntsville the water "felt" (as in soap rinse-ability) similar to what was back home at my parents.


John....STAY AWAY from Rainsoft brand water softener!!!!  Total ripoff!  My last one was a Whirlpool branded one from Lowes and it lasted 10 years.  I had kept the Rainsoft out in the shop thinking I might some day refurbish it...and I did last January.  Found a guy in Florida who sells valve heads, parts, and resin beads for reasonable prices.  I was able to refit for less than Lowes wanted for a new one. It really wasn't difficult either if you have any understanding of how they work.  Here's the link to his website below.


Post# 860220 , Reply# 14   1/5/2016 at 11:13 (566 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Hey Askolover, thanks for the heads up!
I'm looking at GE brand at my Home Depot. It's less than $500, it's got the same dimensions as the existing Kenmore dinosaur, and it's made by EcoWater (formerly known as Lindsay Co.).
I know the EcoWater units aren't the BEST out there, but it's cheap, and they seem to have fairly good reviews online for a plug and play softener.
Plus I really don't have the luxury of space for a 'really good' unit, which almost always come as separate tanks for brine and resin. :/
This new GE would literally plug into my existing pipes. (lazy I know).

I totally agree with your premise, and that link, to rebuild the units, except in this case.
Like everything else in this house, it's used and abused HARD.
The resin is shot, the connector makes me nervous, the valve has seen better days....and if I'm going to spend $ on rebuilding EVERYTHING, I'd rather just get my own brand new one, with a brief warranty, and then take it from there myself, with a unit I know I've taken care of.
If I'm still in this house 5-10 years from now, I'd almost enjoy rebuilding the new softener :)

Post# 860250 , Reply# 15   1/5/2016 at 15:01 (566 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Same as

askolover's profile picture

the Whirlpool at Lowes...Ecowater makes them too, and I believe they make Kenmore (or did).  The one I had worked flawlessly for 9 years, then it would skip a regeneration and I'd have to do it manually once a week and that went on for about a year, then it would regenerate but still wouldn't have soft water.  I cleaned everything in it to no avail so I just figured it was something internal.  I almost went and got another one from Lowes too because of the convenience factor.  I'm just glad to have soft water again!!! 

Post# 860493 , Reply# 16   1/6/2016 at 22:31 (564 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
My First Standard Load

johnb300m's profile picture
So tonight I have my first full standard load in the PDT720.
They usually consist of mixed dishware, silverware, plastics and cookware etc.
Also in this load, I joined the fun of the peanut butter glass in the corner, so that's also along for the ride.

I decided to use the AutoSense cycle with this load, to see what it can really figure out with the standard mix.
Added a 1/3rd cup of vinegar to the machine (for my water situation) as well as the demo Cascade Platinum pac that came with the new machine.
The only option I chose was was Wash Boost to help scrub the pots and pans a tad.

Upon starting the cycle, the behavior was evident to be different from the other Normal and Light cycles I ran in the past. In addition, it seems like adding things in the start of this machine is moot. Even though I run my faucet to get the water nice and hot, the fill is so LOW, (aprox. .8gal) that the hot water never gets through all the pipes, and the 720 does an immediate HotStart, and dumps the first fill to purge the line. vinegar was lost.
It got weirder after that. It proceeded with 2 more fills where all it did was alternate racks for 2 seconds each. In the more standard cycles, it would at least wash lower or upper racks for a couple minutes at a time. But not on AutoSense it seems.
Once entering the main wash, it went back to the programming of longer sessions per rack (which makes more sense to me).

About the load, you'll see I have a crusty skillet, as well as a pasta pot with stuck-on noodles and sauce. The PB glass, some items with fine coffee grounds etc. It'll be a good sample of scrubbing, corner performance and redeposit/filtering. The skillet was placed facing the center where the powerful reversing jets are. And the pasta pot was placed over a Bottle Jet (but the feature not chosen, they 'seem' to run anyway).

The modes on this GE Profile are baffling. And I'm hearing things I've not heard before. I can discern when the lower arm is in its two modes. I 'thought' I could figure out the top. But even the top seems to have different sounds. In the main wash when going to the top, I could hear the ceiling rinse arm spinning and splashing the door, but I didn't hear the bottle jets firing like I did before. Then on another rotation, I heard the bottle jets spraying, but not the constant rinse.....very perplexing. This thing must be more complicated than I thought, as previously thought the bottle jets ran whenever the upper arms ran....and the bottle wash option just ran the top longer to really scrub bottles. Perhaps I really have no idea how this thing works LOL!
That's it! I'll have to put a camera in the Profile. I gotta know!

Results in the morning!
Enjoy the pics.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 5         View Full Size
Post# 860561 , Reply# 17   1/7/2016 at 11:55 (564 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Load Results

johnb300m's profile picture
The results are in.....and I'm pretty tepid about them.
In initial summary, it looks like I should've used the Heavy cycle.
Seems like AutoSense could not adjust to thoroughly clean this load.
The pasta pot over the bottle jet was pristine.
The skillet was mostly clean but with plenty of residue leftover.
One of the small plates up top still had a bit of residue on it.
The peanut butter glass in the corner was an epic fail. I was not feeling good about that test, but was pretty shocked at how bad it did.
The filter too, was still pretty grimey, but I'm chalking that up to the cause of PB swirling around in there for pretty much the whole cycle, since it didn't get cleaned out prior to the rinses.

Frigilux? How have your other results been with the 750?

Luckily though, everything else is very clean, and there's barely a hint of PB smell.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 4         View Full Size
Post# 860572 , Reply# 18   1/7/2016 at 13:29 (564 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Perhaps the rapid switching of the arms at the beginning is a quick sensing phase to try and knock off loose soil and measure the turbidity of the water? Odd that it is such a quick pre wash though. The Whirlpool does a 3 min pre wash with every cycle, upper arm for half the time, then switches to the lower until drain. I wondered if this is to purge the water line for a hot main wash fill, except that when run empty it will skip the drain and proceed to the main wash because no soil is sensed. Heating the water shouldn't be an issue anyway because of the element being set into the bottom of the tub.

Does the upper arm on your GE also alternate directions, or is water pushed to all four "blades"? At first look it seems there's a lot of space that needs filled before water begins to jet out of the holes. I wonder how much pressure is making it out of the jets at the very ends of the arm.

If I were you, I'd take note of these results, and then try again once your softener issue is worked out. Hard water wreaks havoc on results no matter what kind of dishwasher you have. I'm sure once the water is optimal, you'll see a night and day difference.

Post# 860594 , Reply# 19   1/7/2016 at 16:03 (564 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I have issues with any AutoSense cycle to be honest. I've seen first hand, including this post that sometimes it's just best to use the cycle that best matches your dishes load. My ex-bf's parents have a Kenmore dishwasher...more TOL I'd say and his mom always used the Auto cycle. When I was loading it one time she mentioned that sometimes the dishes don't get clean. I told her if it's a really full dirty load it's probably best to use the Heavy Wash/Pots/Pans cycle (or whatever it's called). At Thanksgiving we loaded it FULL and I put it on the heavy cycle. Everything came out very clean...though it took a lot longer. But that gave them an idea of which cycle to use in the future.

These auto cycles are fine for normal wash loads i would think, but event though they can sense dirt levels, they really don't know what's in the machine. I'd rather use a cycle programmed for what I have in there....

My Frigidaire doesn't have an auto cycle, but the Heavy Wash and Normal cycles both have dirt sensors and various wash times. Anytime I have pot and pans, I run it on Heavy Wash.

You should try it again on that and see what happens :)

Post# 860599 , Reply# 20   1/7/2016 at 16:49 (564 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
I think you're right, Andrew, it was doing a cold water purge and then a sensing mode. I just don't know why it alternated the racks so quickly....
The top X arm fully runs at once, along with the top rinse arm and (now I'm assuming) the bottle jets. You're also right, it seems like a LOT of space to fill with water between the x-arm, the conduit, the top arm and bottle jets. In fact, the post-wash rinses must be partial fills, because there's a lot of cavitation in the rinses beside the main wash and final rinse. However, with the pump starving for water, it still sounds like there's a lot of pressure up there, because the bottle jets still make a lot of noise spraying on the ceiling.
The water softener IS working better recently! It's still not "soft" but it's probably on par with Lake Michigan water now.
I'm going to get some more Finish Quantum tabs, since I had great luck with those in the past, and I'm almost out of Seventh Generation (which is 'okay').

Joey, you make a good point too. I might stick to the programmed cycles more, since the sensor runs in those anyway! The soil sensor is up front, and I can see it glowing under the kick plate when the kitchen is all dark :)
If I use AutoSense again, I'll limit it to a more normal load without soiled cookware. Looks like cookware really needs the Heavy cycle.

I gotta try that Steam function out too! Next time.
And I'll try to take video inside as well!

Post# 860610 , Reply# 21   1/7/2016 at 17:30 (564 days old) by tgm8000 (New York)        
Love my Ge PDT720

I have been using this dishwasher since april and love it. I have never had anything come out dirty. I am amazed evertime I open the door to unload it. I only use the auto sense cycle as it uses more water then the normal cycle. Yes it makes alot of strange noises when it senses in the beginning. I always use boost wash temp and heated dry. This is the first dishwaher that I was able to get large cookie sheets all across the bottom rack without hitting the spray arm.

Post# 860615 , Reply# 22   1/7/2016 at 17:56 (564 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
John-- I've never used the AutoSense cycle and after seeing your results, it's probably just as well I haven't. The worst cooked-on grime on pots / pans never fails to be vanquished on the Heavy cycle. I have softened water and keep my tap temp in the lower 130's. I use Sam's Club pacs on some loads and Cascade Platinum pacs on others. I have no complaints about cleaning with the 750.

Your description of the machine's altered behavior on the AutoSense cycle is intriguing. I may try it just to see if the 750 does the same thing.

Post# 860617 , Reply# 23   1/7/2016 at 18:17 (564 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
I never used the autosense

washman's profile picture
cycle on the unit at the condo. And I had to clean that darn filter every 3rd load otherwise stuff on top rack would never come clean.

And like others noted, drying was abysmal at best.

Post# 860619 , Reply# 24   1/7/2016 at 18:37 (563 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I'd be interested in knowing how the manufacturers program their auto sensing cycles. I wonder how they decide what soil reading warrants what cycle time and how many water changes and temp and so on. The Whirlpool hasn't disappointed with its Sensor cycle, but so far its choices with cycle behavior put it somewhere more aggressive than Normal but not as intense as Heavy. Even the manual states that the minimum water use is about a gallon or so more than Normal. I wonder if GE programs theirs to lean towards a lighter cycle whenever it sees a chance.

Post# 860684 , Reply# 25   1/8/2016 at 10:25 (563 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

I can only imagine that the manufacturers run different load types on given appropiate cycles, then measure what the turbidity sensor reads, add a tollerance spectrum, and then basicly tell the machine to run sad appropiate cycle pattern within sad tollerance.

Further, the logical layout of such AutoSense cycle make clear why they aren't good with burned on or sticky soils (like PB): These soils need temperature, detergent and time to dissolve. Both factors that are determined during the sensing period and applied mostly after the sensing period. Thus, they dissolve once sensing is done.

Interesting note on that: To my knowledge, no AutoSense system can run any optical sensing cycles after detergent has been released, because detergent makes the water kind of "cloudy" and thus makes reading inaccurate. But, on the other hand, this allows for sensor guided interim rinses.

Further some AutoSense systems check for temperature curves as well. They basicly plot temperature vs. time within a given temperature range, allowing it to determin how full the load is. Such systems sometimes get messed up with loads of plastic or heavy pots that absorb a lot of heat.

Now that I think about it, wouldn't it be interesting to design an optical sensor that checks for different spectrums of color in the water? Like, the standard range used to day, and another for reds and one for greens? That way, one could make a guess about what the actual soil is?
Like burned stuff is brown, so red and green would both read high turbidity, giving long soaks; tomato and such would read a lot of red, giving many rinses; greens as well.

Post# 860686 , Reply# 26   1/8/2016 at 10:40 (563 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
henene4 - The color spectrum idea sounds awesome!! It's funny, when Whirlpool first had their demo videos on the website when the Point Voyagers were gaining traction, they depicted the size and soil sensing system as some kind of wavelengths coming from the middle of the lower arm, so for a while I thought they had some kind of echolocation system that measured how ultrasonic sound waves bounced around and how much got absorbed from soil on the dishes. Imagine how different dishwashers, washers/dryers, cars, etc. would be if engineers had the freedom to design things the way they -really- wanted to.

I've found that the new Whirlpool seems to use its sensor for more than just periodic sensing-pauses. If there is any water in the sump up to any part of the sensor, it will perform a pulse drain at the start of the cycle before filling. When the water level is below, it just starts filling after the Start button is pressed.

I also noticed it add a few seconds' worth of water randomly in the middle of one of the prewashes, and again during a rinse in a separate cycle, but it doesn't do it every time. I can only guess that it will top off the water level if the sensor picks up any air, much like the Cabrio, unless the motor is able to sense cavitation. That eases my OCD knowing that it will still do its best to fill properly even if a shower or something is running at the same time. I suppose this is what Whirlpool calls their "Dynamic Fill" system.

Post# 860688 , Reply# 27   1/8/2016 at 10:42 (563 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I'd say Sensor cycles are great for what they are, and they've come a long way since the days with pressure soil sensors, like the high-end PowerCleans had that weren't very reliable, but a good rule of thumb would be to just use a heavier cycle or add the hi-temp option if there is anything stuck on the dishes that won't begin to break down during the first prewashes.

Post# 860734 , Reply# 28   1/8/2016 at 16:43 (563 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Fascinating discussion on the sensors, fellas!

From what I know, the optical emitter in the current GE sensor is bright green.
When I did my initial test when I installed the PDT720, I could see the green light glowing out the back of the sensor.
There was also one time I interrupted the machine during a Heated Dry cycle, and much to my surprise, I could see the sensor still glowing green through the filter plate! Crazy! I have no idea why they'd keep it on during drying.

I believe GE's sensors used to be a red LED, based on my parents' much older TritonXL.

Partially unrelated, but there's some optical technology out there in smoke detection starting to use dual wavelength photoelectric sensing. Different wavelengths in fact reflect differently, so maybe there's something there with each manufacturers' sensors being different colors and changing over time. Maybe they're looking for different things?

It's a good question, when and where in the cycles the sensor is taking readings.
The old TritonXL literature said it constantly monitored soil and temperature. Those machines never paused and ours had a "sensing" indicator on the panel that would light up whenever the optical sensor was active.
It would stay on for all cycles, and through all wash portions. It would shut off during final rinses. However, during the LAST rinse, the machine would fill with fresh water, and pause for about 20seconds. The "sensing" light would come on for that time. Tech sheets said that this was a re-calibration time that the machine would do with 'clean' water. The final rinse was the cleanest time to do so. And it was great because it would always ensure base calibration to local water conditions.
I HAVE to imagine the Whirlpools and our new GEs do something similar.
As to when they actually take optical readings now? Who knows. I know all our machines do a lot of pausing now. So maybe they take periodic samples?

I wish my GE would use its sensor for water level testing. Because I feel like it short-fills on the rinses! But maybe that's by design. I think that's the most annoying aspect I've found. I want full pressure, dammit! :)

Post# 860738 , Reply# 29   1/8/2016 at 16:54 (563 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan)        

Good point about the sensor not being used post-detergent drop. I'm largely happy with the behavior of the Bosch we got 2 years ago, but it's so quiet that I don't pay much attention to it. I do sometimes sprinkle some powdered DipIt on the inside of the door (a very old box) but will no longer do that (may try to catch the wash, though). I notice the Bosch seems to have trouble on banana pulp, which sometimes sticks to spoons/knives and doesn't dissolve off. I typically use AutoSense and Sanitize, for a cycle time of 2:20.

Post# 860739 , Reply# 30   1/8/2016 at 16:57 (563 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Never quote me on something...

It's such something I read in some service manual some time ago, and it seemed rather logical to me.

Post# 860743 , Reply# 31   1/8/2016 at 17:51 (563 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Henene, you're partially right about the sensors. GE's first sensors only sensed in the pre-wash and rinse to decide on what the rest of the wash/rinse profile would be.
But I think most modern sensors are active a lot more, but I don't know for sure.

Post# 860787 , Reply# 32   1/9/2016 at 00:10 (562 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I'm only halfway through reading this forum

mark_wpduet's profile picture
but I wanted to comment on the jet dry solid. My previous Point Voyager Whirlpool from 2005 had a dispenser leak. I bought a new cap for it and it seemed to be OK, but months went by that I didn't use the dispenser but I used a jet dry basked - in fact, I still have 4 under my sink unopened. Why? Because they dissolved away WAY too quickly!! I remember even creating a topic about it a long time ago..Andrew, I will be really surprised if your jet dry basket lasts very long. I remember they used to last SO LONG in older dishwashers. I'm thinking after like 5 loads maybe it was completely gone

Post# 860792 , Reply# 33   1/9/2016 at 00:21 (562 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
OK -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I read the rest of this forum. Geez, I've been exclusively using the auto (sensor) cycle on my maytag with hi temp and tough scrub (by the way Andrew, what the blank does tough scrub do?) I've never had any disappointing results so I've continued to use it, and I remember when I first bought this machine I was wondering how extreme the cycles times would be because of it being a modern machine, so I was totally shocked when auto clean seemed to not run much longer than my 2005 point voyager I always ran on pots and pans and hi temp/no dry. About 95 to 105 minutes give or take. I can never time it because it's too quiet and I'm never in the kitchen when it actually is finished...I think I'm going to do the PB test again on the "Normal cycle" next time because I have never used that cycle.

Post# 860799 , Reply# 34   1/9/2016 at 00:59 (562 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
That's odd about the solid baskets. I've had mine in the machine for the past five or so cycles and it barely looks like it's shrunk any at all. I always put it in the very front left corner attached as high as it will go, and usually there's a cup or whatnot that keeps it from being directly hit.

I actually have no idea what Tough Scrub does, my MDB4709 doesn't have it. It was always an option listed on a lot of Maytags I've seen from the 80's and 90's; my grandparents' electronic Reverse Rack Jetclean had it listed and was basically a "high temp wash", and the later models with the plastic tubs and spray tower had it listed as the same option. I wonder if it's just another thing Whirlpool kept for nostalgia. I'd imagine it may just extend wash time or add more rinses and heat than the Hi Temp Wash does.

Mine has Hi Temp Wash and Steam Sanitize, the latter being the same as Sani Rinse, which I just recently learned heats the main wash water to 135 and the final rinse to 155, meaning that selecting Hi Temp if you're using the Sani option is pointless because it bundles them together anyway. I always thought it was either/or. The more ya know, lol.

Post# 860805 , Reply# 35   1/9/2016 at 04:13 (562 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
There should be a tech sheet behind the toe kick of the dishwasher.

Post# 860906 , Reply# 36   1/9/2016 at 16:39 (562 days old) by jerrod6 (Center City Philadelphia Pennsylvania, U.S.A)        

I don't know exactly how the sensor on my machine works but since I have a countdown display on the front of my machine I can tell when it modifies the cycle.  I think the sensor varies the water temperature between 105F and 150F depending on soil.


First the alternating spray arms.  My machine alternates the spray arms every 15 seconds for the first 3 minutes after  EVERY fill.  I assumed this was to adequately distribute the water and to let upside down items collect whatever water they will so that the machine can adjust the amount of water in the cabinet but I don't know.


After about 3 minutes the spray arm alternating changes to every 30 seconds. The exception to this is during the cheese or starch cycle where during the main wash the spray arms change every 90 seconds or something like that, but after the main wash they go back to every 30 seconds.


The prewash on my sensor cycle lasts between 7 and 13 minutes.  If you have a half load of light to moderately soiled dishes you will get the 7 minute prewash.  Normal soil, heavy soil you get a 13 minute prewash.  Regardless of load size if you have light soil the water change between the prewash and main wash will be skipped.


Next the main wash.  The main wash will run 4 minutes before the detergent cup is opened and the heater circuit is turned on.  Around the 4th minute the cup will open and you can hear the  breaker on the heater circuit trip( the technician told me this sound was the heater circuit) .  At that time if the water is cooler than what the DW needs for the main wash  it will add additional time to the wash right then.  If it is hotter than what it needs it will subtract time from the main wash.  For normal to heavy soil between minutes 12 and 18 the machine will adjust the wash cycle time up or down. If the soil is found to be very light it will start adjusting the time down around minute 9.   If the soil is light it may adjust the wash cycle down again in a few minutes.  I have also seen it add time to the wash after it had been washing for about 40 minutes also. 


About 6 minutes into the first rinse which is normally 8 minutes long the machine may increase the cycle time by 8 to 10 minutes  This means the first rinse has been extended, OR an additional rinse has been inserted into the cycle.  If the first rinse ends at the 8 minute mark then an additional rinse has been inserted into the cycle-- and you are getting 3 rinses instead of 2 if not,  you are getting a longer first rinse.


Last rinse.  Time can be subtracted from this rinse.  If it is the time will drop to 22 minutes left and the machine will run 1 more minute.  There don't seem to be any timer holds to heat the water for the wash since that is adjusted at the beginning but there may be a timer hold of about 3 or 4 minutes at the end of the last rinse.  If so the next time you run the cycle extra time will be added to the time estimate for the cycle.  I think this is because the time estimate you are given includes the estimated time it will take to heat the water.


Like I said I don't exactly know how the machine is doing this but this is what I have observed and the sensor cycle is the one I use the most.  It seems like it can tell the difference between oil, starch, and fiber soils because if you give it cheesy oilily stuff or - peanut butter -  you are likely to get 3 rinses.


My machine is 10 years old so newer ones may operate differently.



Post# 860917 , Reply# 37   1/9/2016 at 17:30 (562 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

Post# 860944 , Reply# 38   1/9/2016 at 20:09 (561 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Mark-- It's funny how you've never used the Normal Cycle and I had never used AutoSense, LOL. I finally tried it on two loads today. Unfortunately, wasn't in the kitchen to notice if the machine behaved differently, as does John's PFT720. Both loads were completely cleaned, but neither contained pots/pans. The time displayed is the same for both cycles: 1:51 (when not using Power Dry option).

I'll use AutoSense again tomorrow when I make a roast beef Sunday dinner for a couple of guests. That will involve plenty of cookware--saucepans, roaster, a doughy food processor bowl, etc. That ought to be a better test of its sensing abilities.

I've always used the Normal cycle on my dishwashers as that's the one used in Consumer Reports' tests.

Post# 861029 , Reply# 39   1/10/2016 at 11:22 (561 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Washability Issues

johnb300m's profile picture
Hey gents!
I ran another load last night and intensified it a bit.
Normal wash, Steam Prewash, Temp Boost.
Filled the cup with some leftover 7th Generation powder I'm going through and put some vinegar on the door. (Which was pointless because it did 2 Hot Start water purges before actually starting to wash).
Rinse aid is turned 3/4 on the dispenser.

When I checked the load in the morning, I was expecting everything to be immaculate....but it wasn't! :-0

I put the PB glass over a bottle jet to clean that up finally (but didn't turn on the Bottle Wash)
Another glass in the corner had some white grit all over it, but it brushed off with my hand.
A processor blade I put on the utility shelf came back full of grit, for the SECOND time.
And a corning dish on the bottom still had a little bit of chicken still stuck to it. (not pictured).

Instead of flying off the handle, saying the Profile is the worst piece of crap ever ;)
I'm going to go the engineering route and try to identify cause and effect.
Especially since I KNOW this architecture works; with my parents' 540 and Frigi's good results with his 750.

I have a few suspects.
Even though I've got my water softener limping along, the water must be still so hard that the machine can't perform with such a headwind.
Then there's my detergent, which right now is 1/3 a box of Seventh Generation powder. It worked fine at the old apartment's Durawash....and it seems to be working ok in the 720, for the most part....
But maybe it's just not powerful enough to handle my water.
SO i'm going to buy some Finish Quantum tablets.

Any other ideas???

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 4         View Full Size
Post# 861051 , Reply# 40   1/10/2016 at 13:31 (561 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I have some thoughts if I may...

So, as nice as it seems to use "green" detergents like 7th Generation and Greenworks and such, they're not really known for their cleaning power. I've tried a few samples and even the PowerClean had trouble with what would have normally been easy tasks. On the other hand, while Finish Quantum is RB's "flagship", in my experience it caused sudsing during the main wash and of course starved the pump, and I honestly didn't see any difference in results. Likewise for Cascade Platinum vs. Complete; don't really see a noticeable difference. I would try Cascade Complete pacs or Finish Powerball tabs and see if results improve.

Also, from looking at parts breakdowns for the new GE's, I think they have a similar behavior to the Whirlpool with the way the diverter valve system works; even if Bottle Wash isn't selected, the diverter valve still passes through that position for a few seconds when alternating between arms, like mine does with the silverware spray bar and the TurboZone. When the options are selected, it just makes sure to dedicate time to the chosen zone for a portion of each part of the cycle. I'd imagine that with Bottle Wash selected, the results would have been much better.

It doesn't look like the bottle jets are active at the same time as the upper arm, they should be independent. I'd think that pushing water to both areas would drastically lower the pressure.

Post# 861106 , Reply# 41   1/10/2016 at 19:31 (560 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
When the 'Bottle Wash' option is selected, the PDT750 pauses and the bottle jets do their thing. Using the option adds about 25 minutes to the cycle (at least that's what it says on the time screen). I so rarely use the option that I am not certain if the machine pauses for a full 20-25 minutes while the bottle jets spray. The dishwasher is so quiet that you'd have to commit to sitting in front of it for the full cycle to really know what's going on inside.

John, you're in for continual disappointment if you expect things to come clean on the little fold-down shelves in the upper rack if cups (or other water-blocking items) are directly beneath. The first thing I thought when I saw the photo of the upper rack in your original post was, "Those glasses on the left will not be cleaned." The GE's simply don't have the power to overcome that obstacle. I have good luck laying rubber spatulas or big cooking spoons on it; not so much with glasses or small bowls---unless room is left between items directly under them for the water to get up there.

Barring any mechanical problems, I think your poor results have a lot to do with hard water. I'm more than happy with the cleaning power of the PDT750, but I have super-soft water. If your water is really hard, you may want to switch to Cascade Complete Gel and use dispenser-filling doses for both the prewash and main wash. Use the Heavy cycle. Hint: Put detergent for the prewash directly on to the floor of the machine.

You'll probably find softened water coupled with a top-rated detergent (like Cascade Complete or Platinum pacs) will improve results--even on the Light or Normal cycles. I'd avoid the AutoSense cycle since it can't know your water is hard.

This post was last edited 01/10/2016 at 19:56
Post# 861142 , Reply# 42   1/11/2016 at 00:23 (560 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Bottle Wash and soaps

johnb300m's profile picture
Are you sure it runs the bottle wash jets separately from the rest of the upper rack? I know Murando n' I are in agreement it sure seems like a lot of volume to fill, to run the arms and bottle jets at the same time.... but upon really inspecting the mechanicals of this machine, I don't know how water would exclusively go to the bottle jets.
It's just a little tube attached to the upper wash arm conduit, and I don't see an dividers or separate conduits from the pump going to the bottle jets.
Unless there's another diverter IN the upper arm conduit, and flicking the pump power gets it to switch? I have no idea.
I was just under the strong the impression on my 720, that the bottle jets are always on, and the Bottle Wash cycle just gives additional time to the top rack for the jets to do their work?
That and when my upper rack is on, whether I have Bottle Wash chosen or sounds like sustained, non-rhythmic water spray on the tub ceiling in my machine.
Do you hear any of that, Frigilux? in your 750? The constant spray on the tub ceiling, likely from the bottle jets?

Who knows!
None of us will know until one of us puts a camera inside the damn thing, haha!
I've been dying to, but I've been so freakin' busy the last several days.

And thanks fellas, for the water and soap tips.
I think you're all right, in that my water must still be really bad. In fact, I'm sure of it now. Even the clean stuff, unloading tonight, while looking clean, just felt "chalky."
I'm gonna have to really be using all sorts of enhancements, gobs of soap, and lots of LemiShine to get any sort of positive results, until I can finally get the water softener replaced.

Post# 861163 , Reply# 43   1/11/2016 at 05:20 (560 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
John-- I seem to recall the first time I used the Bottle Wash option that the machine paused and I could hear a much softer water sound going on, which I assumed were the bottle jets. As is the case with me, I could certainly be wrong! You guys have looked into it more thoroughly and I can't imagine my Bottle Wash works differently than yours.

Wish I cared enough to actually sit in front of the machine to listen closely for a cycle...but it seems I don't, LOL. All I know for sure is that the Good Seasons cruet comes clean when I use the Bottle Wash option and it doesn't (consistently, at least) when I place it in a 'regular' spot in the upper rack.

Post# 861179 , Reply# 44   1/11/2016 at 08:07 (560 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Hahah! Thanks Frigi!
I think the largest differences in our machines are that you have the variable speed motor with internal heater. My pump is 1 speed so it's always on Hi.
I wonder if there's different times in the cycle your machine runs at different pressures.....?

Post# 861188 , Reply# 45   1/11/2016 at 08:48 (560 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Thoughts: It would seem logical that the entire upper rack apparatus (arm and bottle jets) are at work during the Bottle Wash phase. Interesting, though, that the cycle in which I used Bottle Wash failed to clean the glass in the corner. You'd think it would have come clean if the upper arm was also spraying the whole time. I didn't use Bottle Wash in the 2nd cycle and that's the one in which the glass in the right rear corner was thoroughly cleaned.


Post# 861220 , Reply# 46   1/11/2016 at 13:48 (560 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I looked at the parts diagram and it seems the pump has two outlets: one for the bottom spray arm and another one to supply the upper rack and ceiling spray.

Question: where the upper rack attaches to the supply tube - is there more than one outlet? Here's a video, but I can't tell if the jets are on or not.

Post# 861254 , Reply# 47   1/11/2016 at 17:33 (560 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
It could also be that the supply for the upper spray systems is a tube-within-a-tube, like the whirlpool. There is one manifold going up the center back that has two pipes going into it, but then it becomes a flat square duct. Perhaps it's just hard to tell how it's piped in the GE. I highly doubt the Bottle Wash jets are running with the upper arm because if so there would be no reason to have the option on the panel, it would just be a part of the cycle. It would also be a hefty pressure loss to the upper arm.

We all need GoPro's pronto! Lol. I love that we all have brand new modern machines that are tearing down the negative stigma against "HE" dishwashers. We just need to get the inside view to figure out what exactly is going on because they're so dang quiet it's hard to tell by just listening.

Post# 861286 , Reply# 48   1/11/2016 at 20:21 (559 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I looked at all the parts up close on GE's website and the supply tube to the upper rack, Bottle Wash and ceiling spray is just one tube. No tube-in-tube or anything.

  View Full Size
Post# 861290 , Reply# 49   1/11/2016 at 20:30 (559 days old) by cehalstead (Charleston, WV)        
tough scrub

tough scrub extends the wash cycle with water heating and adds an extra rinse. It's all explained in the owner's manual.

Post# 861293 , Reply# 50   1/11/2016 at 20:55 (559 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Half load

johnb300m's profile picture
Thanks everyone for the FASCINATING discussion!
For your reward, I have pics of my first Half Load!
I was out of spoons, and thieves a good time to try out the partial washing performance.
I added the bottle jets on, to finally clean that damn peanut butter glass, and try to hear what it does.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 861295 , Reply# 51   1/11/2016 at 21:01 (559 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

John--  I wash half loads in the top rack all the time.  Put the silverware basket in the bottom rack.  Mine always comes clean.  Apparently the bottom arm still provides plenty of washing action.


Alex--  So the upper arm was spraying the whole time the bottle wash jets were in use.  Why on Earth did that glass not come clean in the first load?!  It would have gotten more wash time than it did in the 2nd cycle when the bottle wash option was not used.  Mysteries of the dishwashing universe.

Post# 861296 , Reply# 52   1/11/2016 at 21:12 (559 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Well, at least from a mechanic point of view, I can't see how the dishwasher could only run the Bottle Wash jets, as there are no valves anywhere to channel water only to the jets.

Post# 861302 , Reply# 53   1/11/2016 at 23:03 (559 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

Before purchasing the PDT750, I watched this video.  Maybe this is why I thought the bottle wash jets sprayed independently.  


Another, longer video shows what appears to be water from the upper rack's wash arm spraying water at the same time the bottle jets are spraying.



Post# 861305 , Reply# 54   1/11/2016 at 23:28 (559 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
I saw that too

askolover's profile picture
that's misleading if it isn't the case!

Post# 861309 , Reply# 55   1/12/2016 at 00:03 (559 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

The manual for the Bottle Wash dishwashers says "Bottle Wash - This option increases the time that the bottle jets are on and may add up to 23 minutes to the cycle time". So, it increases the time the upper rack and sprinkler (the 3rd spray arm is now replaced by a sprinkler) are running.

Post# 861310 , Reply# 56   1/12/2016 at 00:20 (559 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
And c|net says: "The bottle-wash jets will actually spray during most cycles, regardless of whether you've selected that add-on. Pressing the button just extends the time they spray."

Post# 861311 , Reply# 57   1/12/2016 at 00:24 (559 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Well look at that! It's right there in that 2nd video! The bottle jets were spraying while the upper arm was spraying.
The top rack load finished. I was doing other cleanup stuff in the kitchen while it rain the main wash, and I didn't hear any modes or sounds shift or change. It pretty much ran the top rack the whole time. The lower arm kicked in a bit during the post-rinses.
It's really seeming like the bottle jets on the GEs run with the whole top rack.
Even in the online manual, the verbiage sounds like the Bottle Wash option just runs the top rack longer to give the bottle jets more time to do their stuff:

"Bottle Wash (on some models) - This option increases the time that the bottle jets are on and may add up to 23 minutes to the cycle time. Use this to wash difficult to clean, dishwasher safe baby bottles, sport bottles, tall coffee cups, etc. See use recommendations in the Loading the dishwasher section."

Seems pretty conclusive to me.
Honestly though? I looked at other dishwashers in the past, and it looks like the Electrolux models and KitchenAid models, who have their own bottle jets now, require those jets to be flipped up, which then use the same water from the upper rack system in those units as well.

As with the half load I ran, everything came out clean! The PB is gone....however there was one glass in the far corner that still had crud blown into it.
It's really looking like the upper corners are real WEAK spots on these X-arm GE machines.

Post# 861330 , Reply# 58   1/12/2016 at 04:07 (559 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I'm sorry -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
but the bottle wash feature would be AWESOME to have. I also LOVE the look of this Dishwasher.

I've never had a dishwasher that can do one rack of dishes only. I'm trying to imagine the inside of a dishwasher that can do this, with dirty dishes only in the top..but food soils all throughout the dishwasher before starting it...does the top rack running ONLY allow the entire of the inside of the dishwasher to be cleaned since the bottom isn't running at all? I'm guessing water is still flying everywhere though. I've never really thought about it until just now.

Post# 861338 , Reply# 59   1/12/2016 at 06:00 (559 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
It's definitely a sharp-looking dishwasher. It caught my eye, as well. Mine cleans well--we've found corners to be inconsistent--but other than that, given soft water it does a great job. Honestly, I've never found a problem with corner-cleaning 'til this test---and I've put pots/pans in the corners of the upper rack. Of course I generally use the Heavy cycle in those circumstances, so that probably helps.

My quibbles with the machine concern the racks and interior space. The racks are a bit flimsy in comparison to the LG which came before it. The inside is definitely smaller than the LG by a couple of inches. That doesn't sound like much, but large pots/pans that fit together in the bottom rack of the LG do not fit in the GE. The LG had a 3rd rack for cutlery/utensils that still left plenty of height room for the upper rack. The GE's upper rack would be cramped with the 3rd rack (found on the PDT760).

Single, upper rack washing: The lower arm still gets some spray time; it simply favors time for the upper rack. I've had three dishwashers with this feature: An early 2000's Frigidaire, the 2008 LG, and the GE. Only the 2006 Maytag didn't have it. I still washed half loads, just chose a shorter cycle. Dishwashers designed for single-rack cleaning generally use less water and energy when washing one rack. However, the water and energy use aren't halved, so maximum efficiency is attained by filling a machine completely. There are weeks when I use few dishes and I don't like to let them sit for days inside the dishwasher. I'd rather run a 1/2 load. Personal preference.

You should check out a GE on the display floor, Mark, and see if you find the racks aren't as brawny as those in your Maytag or if the interior seems a bit tighter.

My 2006 Smokey The Maytag cleaned well and had great capacity. I loved being able to stand two 9" x 13" cake pans up on end on the left side of the lower rack. That was one advantage of the tiered upper rack. I bring treats to work every Monday, which usually leaves me with 3-4 cake pans to wash. Four cake pans would fit in the lower rack with room to spare for a few other items. Unfortunately, an electronics malfunction caused the heater coil to operate spontaneously for hours at a time when the machine was off. It nearly caused a fire (opened the door to a great quantity of smoke and very high heat) so out the door it went. The recall work was done on it and I sold it to a couple who use it in their dedicated canning kitchen. I no longer trusted it.

Well, we know the Bottle Wash feature works well and will get peanut butter out of a tall glass, LOL.

This post was last edited 01/12/2016 at 08:46
Post# 861362 , Reply# 60   1/12/2016 at 08:46 (559 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture

In the second GE video, it shows the Upper rack being lowered to accommodate a Dinner Plate(s).


Sort of like the Revival of the Reverse Rack Hmmmm ???


Another thing I noticed is the folding down of the tines and the "Cassarole" type dish being completely flat face down.  That takes up a great portion of the rack space. In my "Antique" KDS machines, I can stand it up and angle it about 60 degrees so at least a set of the lower jets can sweep by and scrub the dish by direct contact and they come out spotless.


I guess what I have observed lately if I was ever in the market for a Brand New Machine, it would be a choice between Maytag and GE.  If I hit the Powerball, I would buy the Miele TOL.



Post# 861386 , Reply# 61   1/12/2016 at 11:01 (559 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Mark, I have a hunch this GE dishwasher would catch your fancy.

It's pretty much the 'same' as the Profile series, with the same bottle jets, cycles, tiered rack (oh no!), hidden fan venting. Yet without the x-arm wash system.
I almost bought this one. But my HomeDepot had the Profiles on deep Thanksgiving sale that put it at almost the same price as these, so I upgraded at the time.

I was also really looking at this Maytag model pretty seriously, but the bottle jets, and long time GE dishwasher loyalty swayed me to the Profile. (Plus, the x-arms looked freakin' cool).
The Maytag had that ever so rare hard food chopper, ran both racks at once....but....upon looking at it, it's upper arm looks super short like the GE's x-arms as well! I bet it would be equally weak in the corners.
What's with all these machines and their stubby upper arms?
Seems like the Whirlpools only have the extra long arms for better corner coverage now.

  View Full Size
Post# 861406 , Reply# 62   1/12/2016 at 12:50 (559 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Reverse Rack

logixx's profile picture
My favorite dishwasher ever is probably the Bosch/Siemens Top Rack Dishwasher from the mid 90s. Both baskets were designed identically so everything would fit everywhere - despite these machines not having foldable tines at all. My aunt had one of these dishwashers and it held tons of stuff. It got its name from the fact that it had two Start buttons: one to wash both racks and one to wash only the upper one.

Post# 861408 , Reply# 63   1/12/2016 at 12:56 (559 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Is there a way to get the model number to get ahold of the manual, please?

Post# 861441 , Reply# 64   1/12/2016 at 15:11 (559 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

Well, I finally have to chime in on all this discussion with my recently acquired Kenmore Elite.  It has both top or bottom rack only options.  I've only used each once or twice.  Partly because I was a bit dismayed it still sprayed on the other rack despite single level selected.  As shown with your dishwashers, it's all a function of the diverter valve.  But like Eugene, I put my flatware in the bottom rack and it comes out clean as well as other lightly soiled dishes in the bottom.  So I can do top rack only and still get cleaning below.  The TurboZone Reach jets are their version of bottle wash.  These are activated throughout the cycle thanks to the diverter valve.  but if I select TurboZone, these upper rack jets are activated longer.  But I haven't needed them yet.  I have a very tall, somewhat narrow mug I use for hot chocolate in the winter.  I ended up having to put it in the bottom rack more than not in the old unit for it to get clean.  To my amazement, just putting the mug on the outer row, CLEAN.  Even after sitting for 3 days.  And I can put small plastic stuff on the cup racks with mugs underneath and the TZ Reach still gets it all clean.  I don't know how, but even my old jelly jar glasses glisten some now rather than being dull.  There's a fan that comes on during the dry cycle and stays on for an hour afterwards, but only with heated dry.  It has two heated dry length options and the 2 hour dry gets even the disposable plastics dry.  And it has the self cleaning filter.  The top rack glides on ball bearings.  Sometimes I have to hold the top rack with one hand so it won't go moving.  And it's super quite, but my hearing is so good that I can still figure out what's going on inside--wash ams, TZ Reach jets, ... 

Post# 861535 , Reply# 65   1/13/2016 at 01:08 (558 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I was hoping to hear more about your new Kenmore, Bob. Thanks for the descriptions.

Post# 862110 , Reply# 66   1/15/2016 at 22:45 (555 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Really full load

johnb300m's profile picture
Hey gang, so not sure if this is Bobload worthy, but it's quite full, and I needed to run a wash.
It's pretty dirty.
Using every option on Heavy cycle.
Steam, sani, bottle wash (adds 15min).
I have crusty bowls and a skillet with some mildly burnt on starch.
We shall see.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 862131 , Reply# 67   1/16/2016 at 05:56 (555 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

Looking forward to your assessment of the results, John.  What's the detergent for this load?

Post# 862138 , Reply# 68   1/16/2016 at 06:44 (555 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
The pump

logixx's profile picture

  View Full Size
Post# 862155 , Reply# 69   1/16/2016 at 09:04 (555 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
The assessment was.....mostly good.
"Only" 2 rejects."
The skillet was still dirty but better than I expected, and way better than the old Durawash could ever do.
Then there was some noodle still stuck on the pasta spoon.
EVERYTHING else was squeaky clean.
Detergent was still my box of 7th Generation. I know, I know, if it was Quantum or Platinum, it might've been clean. I didn't want to just toss out the box I have. I'll use it up and then get new stuff.
There was also Lemishine in the pre-wash.
I'm also done horsing around and getting a new water softener this afternoon.
That should help immensely.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 862450 , Reply# 70   1/17/2016 at 21:43 (553 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Another filthy load + soft water!!!!

johnb300m's profile picture
I finally got my water issues resolved at this point. New water softener is doing its magic. I got me some Cascade Platinum pacs.
Over the weekend I accumulated one filthy load, with pans, bowls, utensils etc.
I even threw in the horribly greasy screen from the range hood (I didn't do it!)

So here it is [pics below]: Heavy wash, Steam, Sani Wash. 207 minutes.
Cascade Platinum pac in the cup. Tossed in a heaping helping of my leftover 7th Generation in the pre-wash.
Nothing is burned on in this load, so I'm having good vibes, with the soft water and better soap. :)

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 862525 , Reply# 71   1/18/2016 at 10:01 (553 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Good news!

johnb300m's profile picture
Everything came out clean!
I thInk this puzzle has been cracked.
You wouldn't believe the results from the hood screen! It was 80% clean. I was shocked.
What a huge difference the conditioned water makes.

Post# 862532 , Reply# 72   1/18/2016 at 10:40 (553 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Awesome! Yes, Ditch the Seventh Gen powder! I tried it once and it was AWFUL.

Andrew, you're right about the Finish Quantum - it makes the dishwasher labor with so many suds - the powerball does not do this.

I think my choices would be either Powerball, Cascade Platinum - or Cascade Fryer Boil out...Formerly Cascasde Institutional.

It would be interesting if you had tried the new soap before you got your hard water situation fixed to see if you still had gotten clean dishes using the new soap. I'm thinking the 7 generation in addition to the super hard water was the problem.

Now, you have to do the peanut butter test AGAIN :)

Post# 862534 , Reply# 73   1/18/2016 at 10:44 (553 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
HAHA! Yes, I think you're right Mark. I'll have to try the pb test again.

In actuality, I DID use the two Cascade Platinum freebie pacs that came with the machine....and honestly? They only did marginally better than the 7th Generation powder.
That water before proper treatment was really tough to work with.

Post# 862617 , Reply# 74   1/18/2016 at 17:41 (553 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Glad to hear soft water made the difference. No doubt about it: Dishwashers love softened water.

Post# 862635 , Reply# 75   1/18/2016 at 18:35 (552 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

washman's profile picture
Hi frig.

Post# 862848 , Reply# 76   1/19/2016 at 12:47 (552 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Hi, Ben!

Post# 863609 , Reply# 77   1/23/2016 at 02:29 (548 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
A warning

askolover's profile picture
about those tabs/packs/pods and soft water...they will cause glass to etch much quicker. Even in the KA that uses 1994 standard amounts of water and the Jetclean with 1997 amounts, I had to be careful about etching. Before I met Tony, I used mostly plastic cups for drinks. Then he comes in and puts all my plastic stuff in a box and sticks it in the shed and brings in all this glassware (that I hate). Imagine with a fraction of the water AND being softened...been there, done that, got the etch marks! At least with gel or powder I can adjust the amount. But I'd still take a water softener any day, especially when it comes to my shower!

Post# 863631 , Reply# 78   1/23/2016 at 08:45 (548 days old) by cuffs054 (GA)        

Who says old fools can't learn new tricks? The GE video shows the three piece silverware basket seperated and placed in different positions. My Frig DW has the same setup and I never thought to put the sections in different places.

Post# 863634 , Reply# 79   1/23/2016 at 08:50 (548 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        
Frigidaire Gallery 2445

joeypete's profile picture
Yeah Cuffs I split mine. Keep one of the smaller ends on the top rack for little items. I use a lot of Tupperware and have little dressing cups, silicone vents for bowls, etc so it works out nicely. I usually keep the larger section and other small section together on the side unless i need more room then I'll split the other smaller one and either take it out completely or move it. Nice to have flexibility.

Post# 863683 , Reply# 80   1/23/2016 at 13:49 (548 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

I've split my flatware baskets for the last 9 years.  Use the middle section mostly, but use the smaller sections for small amounts of flatware and can put those in the top rack to make space in the bottom for bulky items.  Also with the smaller sections out, have more space for bulky pots & pans in bottom too.  Waste of space if they're all together as far as I'm concerned.

Post# 863701 , Reply# 81   1/23/2016 at 16:11 (548 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Baskets and pacs

johnb300m's profile picture
The split baskets are very handy, for the same reasons stated. I usually leave them together 80% of the time. But with the top or bottom wash zones, they become even more handy!

Thanks for the comment on the soap pacs and soft water. I was wondering the same thing!
It washes fantastically now, but I was wondering if the solution is too caustic now. I have the Cascade Platinum pacs and would hope they'd have anti etch additives. These one dose pacs are supposed to be universal for loads and water conditions.
Which seems dubious to me, but maybe they did it?
So will they etch dishware over time for real?
Would the smaller Finish Poweball tabs be better?

I do like the versatility of powder! But the companies have all but abandoned development on powder detergent. Cascade powder kinda sucks now. But may sits ok with my soft water now.
And Finish seems to have abandoned powder completely....
AND, with more machines doing half loads, the pacs seem real wasteful.

Perhaps I can keep loads full, very dirty, and see how this batch of pacs goes.

Post# 863702 , Reply# 82   1/23/2016 at 16:14 (548 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

I like my Cascade Complete powder for daily use--allowing for both prewash & main wash dosages.  With really tough loads requiring the Platinum pacs, then I put a dose of powder in the prewash and the pack in the main wash dispenser. 

Post# 863716 , Reply# 83   1/23/2016 at 17:39 (548 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
As long as your dishes are adequately dirty, there should never be a problem. Etching and damage only occurs with VERY hard water, or by using detergent and having no soil for it to "eat".

Post# 863728 , Reply# 84   1/23/2016 at 19:48 (547 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Etching occurs with too soft water.

Post# 863763 , Reply# 85   1/24/2016 at 04:12 (547 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture
We have a couple of glass cereal bowls that get used frequently and they are beginning to show etching. We've used Finish and Cascade over the years, have settled on Finish now though if using a tab 'cause Cascade foams more. I still keep powder and gel in house and only use half of what's called for. At least the cycle times in the KDI23 are short :-) so there's minimal contact time...and I've yet to have a dirty dish come out of it!

Post# 863764 , Reply# 86   1/24/2016 at 04:18 (547 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
soft water detergents

askolover's profile picture
Any of y'all ever heard of or used this? Supposed to be formulated for soft water to reduce etching. I've been wanting to try their products for a while but just haven't done it.


Post# 863803 , Reply# 87   1/24/2016 at 10:22 (547 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Thanks for all the tips.
Yeah I've read more that it's the soft water in combination with too little dish soil that will eventually eat glassware and glazes on dishes.
Those soft water detergents look interesting!
Maybe I'll have to check that out when I run out of the Cascade Platinum.

Post# 863804 , Reply# 88   1/24/2016 at 10:30 (547 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Performance in the corners of the PDT720

johnb300m's profile picture
I've been pretty frustrated with the performance in the corners of the upper rack with the PDT720. It's only got 1 jet to handle those areas, and the lacking power shows load after load. Even in the better, soft water atmosphere.

So my engineering side hijacked the situation and I did something rash :)
I took out my drill and added a 2nd little hole angled out from the upper wash arm, as well as slightly elongated the jet on the end of the arm.
I don't hear any detrimental pressure losses in the top rack from the added flow. But I'd hesitate to do any more than that.

To test it out, in conjunction with my wonderful soft water, and the Platinum pacs, I peanut buttered up another glass. I included it in another filthy, Heavy wash, with Temp Boost and Steam prewash.
There's a glass baking pan in there too, with egg bake on it.

Results pending, in 165 minutes!

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 863828 , Reply# 89   1/24/2016 at 13:10 (547 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Results are in....and .....things are looking acceptable!
The peanut butter glass is still not nearly clean....BUT, it's better than before!
The water, soap, and I'm thinking the extra water flow up there had a helping impact.
I'm content I think! Not sure how much better it'll get from here.

And that bake pan came pretty damn near clean.
Just a few pieces of egg still stuck on there, that I can at least pick off, rinse and put away :)

The filter is coated with peanut butter, but not looking too bad either. The suction side is grimey, but what I've been doing every load is turning the filter cylinder 180 degrees. Seems to help.

Andrew's WP filter stays cleaner I think, because PW put a baffle on the intake to not suck debris directly against the screen.
See in the 4th pic.
And it's a good solution.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 5         View Full Size
Post# 863834 , Reply# 90   1/24/2016 at 13:46 (547 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I was wondering that as well, about the baffle. It seems it would generate a bit of a "whirlpool" (pun most CERTAINLY intended) that would keep soils loosely held, and I think the pulsing of the drain pump when draining while the wash pump still runs helps too. I've yet to pull that filter out to find any more than a speck or two, which will be gone by the next load. I could probably never take that thing out the entire time I own it, and it still wouldn't need manual cleaning.

I still have concerns about those bottle jets running with the upper arm on the GEs. If there is an upper constant rinse arm, the four bottle jets which seem to have decent sized holes, AND the upper rack wash arm that is X shaped with all four blades spraying, and water having to fill ALL of that tubing and the arms and have enough volume to generate pressure from the just seems like a lot going on all at once. I guess I'm surprised that they didn't do what WP did with the silverware spray or KitchenAid with their bottle jets, and just dedicate a diverter valve port just to that zone.

I wonder, if water powered only that upper rack arm alone, would the end jet have enough power to get the peanut butter glasses clean?

Post# 863844 , Reply# 91   1/24/2016 at 15:28 (547 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
This might help the mental anguish:

Those blue nozzles are actually part of a 2nd plastic insert that takes up space in the wash arm channels.
The arm channels are actually quite narrow already, and those inserts take up even more space.

The holes in the bottle jets seem to not be that large. By eye, they look hardly larger than 1/16" dia. with distribution heads (blue tips).

There's really no way to know till I put a camera inside, but on sound alone, it sounds like there's good water action up there.
Now, if I were to find a way to block the bottle jets in a way that is not permanent, logically there would be more pressure. But I'm not sure how much more to be helpful.
The top rinse arm already spins with reckless abandon. And the middle arm sounds like it rotates at a good clip (even after my jet mods 🤓)

It just seems like the middle arm is too short for the rack and I'm not sure if more pressure and more holes would really help because the angle of entry is still really awkward for the water.

Post# 863868 , Reply# 92   1/24/2016 at 17:34 (547 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Sounds like I should go check one out in the flesh haha. I'm sure the good engineers at GE would have addressed any issues with pressure long before launch.

It's funny that you took the drill to it, because it reminds me that when me and my now husband lived in our apartment a few years ago, it just had a builder grade GE dishwasher. BOTTOM of the line, the racks didn't have tines at all, just humps, so loading the top rack was awful. Anyway, it wouldn't clean very well despite having plenty of water and good detergent, and what bugged me was how fast that arm rotated. I decided to try and slow it down by drilling two small holes near the tower, opposite the side with the actual hole designed near that tower, and angled them the opposite direction to "pump some brakes", and it also added spray holes for when a cup was placed near the center by the guard. It worked beautifully. The rotation slowed down to the same speed as the GE Nautilus my parents had, and I'm guessing the slower passes of water helped knock soils off better.

So now we know of at least two GE dishwashers in existence with "gently modified" wash arms, lol. Maybe we should take a crack at applying as their engineers.

Post# 863870 , Reply# 93   1/24/2016 at 17:42 (547 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Also, this might be a bit of a stretch, so take it for what you will...but I wonder, if you happened to have extra money laying around sometime, if you ordered the upper wash arm that isn't X-shaped, and swapped them out...

That's just a thought. I did the same for my PowerClean. The upper arm was sticking for some reason, I think from molding issues or something, but I also didn't like how gaping large the holes were, so, I took the one from my Voyager, which is exactly the same as far as how it fits and its length, just "updated" with smaller diameter jets and dedicated jets for the silverware basket, as well as an extra jet at the end. After that I never had a single yibble. It rotated at the same speed as the lower, and would flip over light cups if not secured. I went ahead and ordered the identical one so that my Voyager can be sold by the PC can still keep its modernized upgrade.

I had the same thought for if I didn't like the lower arm on the new Whirlpool with the moving valves, I would just order the standard lower arm. So far I love it though, and don't see having any issues with it.

Okay sorry for such long posts I'll leave you alone now!!!! *runs back to my assigned seat*

Post# 863976 , Reply# 94   1/25/2016 at 10:28 (546 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
That's freakin' hilarious. I thought I was the only mad scientist taking power tools to my dishwashers.
In the past, I've always had those GE BOL apartment machines.
Other than lack of filtration, they usually washed ok.
I used to tap a little hole in the spray tower to blast the silverware, which helped.
And sometime in the early 2000s, GE went to a new upper rinse arm design where they just had 1 little end nozzle. It worked ok, but the ceiling of the machines used to always be left with kibble.
So I'd tap a little hole in the rinse arm aiming at the tub ceiling, and that always did well getting the grit off of there.

The standard 500 series middle wash arm IS available. And I was thinking about that last week!
However, butt heads at GE combined it with the lower wash arm as a kit now. Which I don't need.
But it's only $30, so maybe I'll get it anyway :)

The 2-way and 4-way wash arms have the same amount of holes.
The 2-way arm actually has a larger volume to fill, so it might be moot.
BUT, the end jets are slightly different.
Maybe it'll throw more water into the corners?
I think I'll get it anyway.
And if anything, it'll be another arm to play with and drill up.

If I ever start a dishwasher mad scientist lab, you've got the 1st open spot.

Post# 863980 , Reply# 95   1/25/2016 at 10:42 (546 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
YOU'RE KIDDING ME!!! The Nautilus we had was the same!!! Spray arm on the ceiling, but the three holes on each side were fake, just drain holes for the troughs on both sides, but there was that one slit at the end, so I got my dad's Makita and put a hole right near the center to spray up because it ALWAYS had grit and yibbles there!!! Are we sure we're not brothers separated at birth??

You could be right about that other upper arm. I'm sure it's like the HydroSweep on KitchenAids; fewer holes on each arm but if you got a piece of paper and rotated while drawing where holes are, you'd have a straight line with a pretty even array of jets. If anything, just keep an eye on eBay or Amazon. Ever since looking up a couple of parts in the past, they always "suggest" parts that I'd have never thought to be in their inventory, much less at the price they sometimes display.

Post# 863985 , Reply# 96   1/25/2016 at 11:14 (546 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Are these the spray arms you're considering? If so, they also seem to have the issue of uncleaned corners:

Post# 863987 , Reply# 97   1/25/2016 at 11:46 (546 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Yup, Logixx, those are the "standard 500 series" spray arms.
I already ordered them :)

I'm going to try modifying them to see if I can get more water thrown in the corners.

Post# 864194 , Reply# 98   1/26/2016 at 18:29 (545 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Guess what I'm doing tonight?!!!

johnb300m's profile picture
Alternative wash arms arrived!
I'll install the alternate middle arm and run a heavy load tonight. See how it does.
I also want to note that the 500 series standard wash arm cannot fit on the bottom of the profile machines because of the different manifold for reversing action.


  View Full Size
Post# 864199 , Reply# 99   1/26/2016 at 19:01 (544 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Good luck! Looking forward to seeing the modified machine. I've been putting all sorts of things in the corners of the upper rack lately and everything comes clean. Did I get the one GE with the X arms that actually works, LOL?

Post# 864216 , Reply# 100   1/26/2016 at 21:16 (544 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Alternate Wash Arm load

johnb300m's profile picture
Ok. Here's what I got set up.
A very grimy Heavy load. I've put a tall and short glass in each upper left corner with the standard wash arm for the top rack.

Here's what I found, and you can see this in pictures. The standard wash arm looks to be about a half-inch longer on both ends then the X-shaped arm.
I'm not exactly sure why they did it that way, but the standard arm looks like it gets more Jets directly under glasses placed in the corners.
Visually, anyway.
We'll see how the load comes out.

I've been listening to the modes in the prewash and I don't hear any cavitation when the top runs. So the alternate arm seems to be accepted so far by the system!
There is a slightly different rotational sound since the Jets aren't distributed across four ways up top. But it sounds very similar.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 4         View Full Size
Post# 864228 , Reply# 101   1/26/2016 at 22:40 (544 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Honestly the S-shaped arm looks to have more even coverage. I wonder why they made the X-shaped arm so short and stubby.

I'm glad Whirlpool hasn't changed the upper arm in any of their WP or KitchenAid machines. Don't fix what isn't broken, haha. I've never known of a Whirlpool designed machine to have trouble in corners at all. I was sure this one would break the record but I was delightfully surprised with the pb test and the camera.

What does the manifold look like on the lower arm assembly with the arm removed? I've been curious as to how they change water passages with the same port and arm.

Post# 864279 , Reply# 102   1/27/2016 at 09:51 (544 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Morning results were pretty damm good I must say!
That DISGUSTING stainless pan came out 90% clean. Which still impressed me.
There were just a few small pieces of chicken still stuck on, which I can now scrape off pretty quickly by hand.
The bottom rack cleaning of this machine has really left me impressed.

The top rack with the 500 series S-arm, was also pretty darn clean! Maybe a hair cleaner than with the x-arm!
Though that's not empirical data.
The tall glass I had in the corner was completely clean, with no grit blown into it. Three cheers for that!
The short, smaller glass in the other corner had some very fine crud stuck to one side of the inside still. But it's mouth was still narrow to barely catch 1 of the jets of the longer S-arm.
Otherwise, everything else on the top was perfectly clean!

The coverage between the jet layouts on the S and X arms seems very similar, just spread out over 4 arms. However, I did notice that the X arm has 2 additional angled jets on the ends, probably to help drive it due to the larger size. It's possible these angled jets don't get as far up directly into cups and glasses as such. Especially in the corners. And it's shorter length certainly doesn't help it.

I'm inclined to just keep the S-arm installed up there and see how it does on more loads. And if anything, now I got 2 style arms to swap out on certain whims.
The X-arm certainly looks cooler. But the S-arm is neat looking too. And so far it's done a tad better.

Andrew, here's a link showing the main distribution manifold.
For the lower wash arm, there are two ports leading to two concentric ports that feed the reversing wash arm. These feed two chambers in the lower arm that go to separate jet sets for either direction.
The other two ports feed the conduit to the top rack, but it does NOT look divided.

Post# 864712 , Reply# 103   1/29/2016 at 17:59 (542 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Oh that peanut butter...

logixx's profile picture
Post# 864735 , Reply# 104   1/29/2016 at 21:45 (541 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
John and Frigilux, do your machines have the dedicated silverware spray bar?

Post# 864750 , Reply# 105   1/30/2016 at 00:29 (541 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
I finally did it, it's kinda crappy; low res, through a pyrex container and my iphone wrapped in a bag. But I finally, FINALLY got video of the inside of the PDT720.
The struggle was real.

But this will clear up a lot of questions we had, especially with the upper rack and the bottle jet.
They do indeed, run the whole time, as you'll see.
And they're very fine and small, so I doubt they cause much of a pressure loss at all. The pump is quite powerful in this thing.

Anyways, enjoy!

Andrew, I speak for myself, but 99% for Frigilux too; our machines do NOT have a dedicated silverware jets bar. It looks like that's something new for 2016. And that's super cool!
They're clearly following Whirlpool on this one. And they're putting up much higher in price point that Whirlpool does as well.
However....these current GE machines do have the drive jets for the upper wash arm decently aimed at most silverware locations.
Of all the early issues I had, silverware was almost never one of them. Except for user error, the silverware has been the cleanest items to come out of my machine thus far.

Post# 866916 , Reply# 106   2/13/2016 at 01:25 (527 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Ok....I broke down and got a GoPro 'style' waterproof cam. HAHA!
I couldn't resist.

So here's more footage.
I am frustrated though.....the lighting is still crap.
And Youtube will not, for the life of me, upload my videos in HD!!!
Very frustrating.
Does anyone have any tips?
I edit the movies in iMovie and try to export them in the highest HD quality, but when I put them on Youtube they look like shite.
Any ideas?



Post# 866935 , Reply# 107   2/13/2016 at 05:44 (527 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Thanks for the upload. So I knew I hadn't dreamt that I read in a service manual that the side jets were used to fill the dishwasher.

Is the finished file from iMovie in HD? Do you save the file and then upload it to YT or do you upload it through iMovie (if there is such a feature)?

Post# 867028 , Reply# 108   2/13/2016 at 17:54 (527 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
If I were you...

I would use normal and temp boost for most everyday loads. Have you ever used power dry before? How did it perform?

Post# 867158 , Reply# 109   2/14/2016 at 14:15 (526 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Heated Dry works great on this machine.

Logixx, I'm pretty sure it's rendered in HD. The final video looked good on my machine. (Sans the native lighting issues).

Post# 867166 , Reply# 110   2/14/2016 at 15:50 (526 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
iMovie can be finicky with exporting. There should be advanced settings when you go to export/share that have options for uploading in higher quality, but if I recall correctly, it's not worded in a way that really sticks out. Try reexporting it again and make sure everything is set to maximum quality and no compression. The first upload I did of my dishwasher video came out pixelated despite thinking I had it set for 1080p. When I backtracked, I had overlooked one little setting that "optimized" it for sharing across social media/email. Could be something like that that just needs a tweak. :)

Post# 867194 , Reply# 111   2/14/2016 at 18:24 (526 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Thanks Andrew!
I'll give it a shot!
I'm pretty determined to get a video posted.

Post# 867244 , Reply# 112   2/15/2016 at 07:04 (525 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I hate iMovie to be honest. I used to work fine but the last few videos I edited on there didn't upload to YouTube. It went through the process said it was done and the videos never showed up.

Post# 867334 , Reply# 113   2/15/2016 at 20:20 (524 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
Can you upload a video of...

what's going on inside, please? Thank you.

Post# 867342 , Reply# 114   2/15/2016 at 21:32 (524 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Reading. Comprehension.

johnb300m's profile picture
WHAT do you think I've been doing?!

  View Full Size
Post# 867345 , Reply# 115   2/15/2016 at 21:45 (524 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
I have looked...

I have been looking for a youtube video of what goes on inside these new GE's.

Post# 867349 , Reply# 116   2/15/2016 at 22:05 (524 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Then there's apparently no way I can help you.

Post# 867350 , Reply# 117   2/15/2016 at 22:14 (524 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Reply #106 my dear. Scroll up.

Post# 867358 , Reply# 118   2/15/2016 at 23:06 (524 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
I just don't know if there are enough spoons in the world ;-P

Post# 867406 , Reply# 119   2/16/2016 at 07:43 (524 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Reviews Of A New GE X Arm DW

combo52's profile picture

I have had one of these in my kitchen for about 4 months now and I surly hope it is not in my kitchen another 4 months.


Major gripes, The racks are terribly designed, in the upper rack things slide around fall over, fall through etc and the rack has so many different levels it is a real challenge to load, after you get it more than 1/2 full the dishes can start to hold on to each other however, LOL.


The lower rack not any better, the spacing of the tines again are all over the place and the openings in the rear area of the lower rack are so large that small cutting boards 6"X 7" actually fall partly through and stop the lower wash arm from turning. To make matters worse the almost black color of both racks makes it very hard to see them for loading, this dark color is probably meant to hide the rust that I am sure will soon develop.


Cleaning ability is very spotty at best, I have some loads emerge where almost everything looks clean and others where only 1/4 of the items were clean enough to put away, but even when they look clean they really are not. If you have one of these DWs [ or another modern filter style DW ] take the filter out of the bottom after a cycle and take a small measuring cup etc and scoop enough water out to fill a drinking glass and look at the water and tell me if you would drink it.


Drying ability is fair if you use heated dry, absolutely none exsistant if no heat dry is used, my 1987 WP DW drys far better on no heat dry that this DW does on heated dry when both are left overnight with the doors closed.


Noise level is very low except the the annoying drain pump that cycles on and off over and over again, you can even hear it in my office in a completly different room and it is really annoying.


Overall this DW is fairly built like most upper line GE DWs have been over the last 10-15 years but it is not nearly as good overall in performance or repairablity as the DWs that WP is building. I have already done service calls on these new style GE DWs and they are not well designed for repair. One common problem that is emerging is a blockage in the sump area that completely blocks the water getting to the drain pump, but it makes for a good $100 service call.

Post# 867585 , Reply# 120   2/17/2016 at 13:38 (523 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Interesting assessment, Combo52.
I understand you do a lot of appliance repair?

What's your general read on the reliability of these current GE dishwasher architectures?
My X-arm Profile has been working pretty good since the water treatment has been solved.

I do agree with you in a sense that, it's not the BEST dishwasher out there. But it does perform pretty well for me. Enough to live with at least until it's no longer salvageable. I'm willing to live with it's little nagging issues, to get the pretty amazing features it has. I LOVE the Bottle Jets. Not gonna lie. And the choice of different level half loads.

The top rack seems to fit my dishes fine for the most part. The clips for the fold-down tines cause issues of placement for some of my glasses, but that's it.
It seems like your dishes do not sit well in their rack design.
My parents have this style GE too, and they have one set of "fancy" glasses that don't sit well in one of the rows either. They flop around.

Cleanability is somewhat less in the Profile's top rack as well.
I've mostly rectified it by getting RID of the x-shape upper arm.
I've swapped it with the standard models' s-shape upper arm.
It's longer, gets the corners better, and since all the jets are in one line, it seems to spray more water around in wall-shape fashion, than spreading the jets across 4 arms, cause too sparse of a spray with the very small jets.
They x-arm would leave grit on the backsides of certain glasses in the top rack.
The s-arm has greatly diminished this, though not totally eliminated it.

The bottom rack? NO cleanability issues what soever. GE nailed that bottom rack in my experience.

I'm also very surprised at your drying issues!
My experience has been very different.
When I run the machine at night, I never really use Heated Dry (mine is a legit Heat Dry with a heating element). The little fan runs for 90 minutes if uninterrupted, and the next morning, the dishes are very dry.
Using Heated Dry, I've had perfectly dry dishes after the end of the cycle, sans the deep wells in mugs or grooves in plastic-ware.

I'm in agreement, the filter screens are not very "self cleaning" in these machines. Not nearly as good as Andrew's Whirlpool.
I've been rinsing out the filter every week or so. And that seem satisfactory to my performance. I also put VERY dirty dishes in my machine, which does my filter no favors I'm sure.

Drain pumps being intermittent? As far as I know, that's how the majority of modern dishwashers are today. The pulsing drain adds turbulence to the sump to help "clean" the filter screen.

I can see where you might have issues in the repair department. Installing my GE, it was quite difficult due to the fact that there's NO ROOM underneath that darn thing. I feel your pain.

Post# 867780 , Reply# 121   2/18/2016 at 18:52 (521 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
hard food disposer/filtration system

How was GE able to put a hard food disposer in with the removable filtration system. I was under the impression that they were separate.

Post# 868203 , Reply# 122   2/21/2016 at 15:40 (519 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Murando, GE Profile, sensor cycles;

The sensor cycles are variable. There is a turbidity optical sensor in the sump tube just outside of it on the recirculation side. In combination with water temp., and soil particles, the wash times, and water purges are set.
I have a 2011 GE profile 4 cycle model with out a door handle and love it.
I mainly use the anti-bacterial cycle with added heat, as I keep my water heater at only 130 f.
I mostly run it every other day, so I rinse my dishes always.

Post# 868260 , Reply# 123   2/21/2016 at 22:32 (518 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Hard food disposer

johnb300m's profile picture
The Piranha hard food disposer on GE's new machines are more of a marketing farce than functional. It's totally behind all the filters. It's almost pointless. It's only there so they can have it in their brochures.

Post# 868268 , Reply# 124   2/21/2016 at 23:38 (518 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
Just as I suspected...

That was just what I suspected.

Post# 868289 , Reply# 125   2/22/2016 at 05:11 (518 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

What you said about Pirannah is sadly a truth for a very long time.  One reason why I stayed away from GE. 

Post# 868312 , Reply# 126   2/22/2016 at 06:54 (518 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Reviews Of A New GE X Arm DW

combo52's profile picture

Hi John, thank you for your detailed response to my comments about this new GE DW.


Yes I-we work on a lot of DWs, in the last two week period we ran 27 service calls on various different DWs and sold and installed 9 new DWs  [ all MT MDB4949 and one new KA ]. DWs are often changeling appliances to run service calls on due to issues with water conditions, customer usage issues and expectations.


Yes my comments were overall pretty critical about this DW, and yes it can produce clean dishes and probably uses about 1/2 the water of my other DW in this kitchen. But that is where the problem with the GE becomes apparent, it is in the same kitchen as a 1987 WP DU8000XR-1 which is better in every single way, ease of loading, cleaning, drying the easier to use in-door-silver-ware-basket are all superior.


Even though I am a nut on saving energy, water Etc I am perfectly content to use 12 gallons of gas heated water per load vs 6 gallons for the GE to always have clean dry non smelly dishes and machine, luckily I live in an area of the country where water is not real scarce.


The only advantage what so ever of the GE is a little more height in the lower rack, but for this slight advantage you have to bend over an extra two inches for ever single thing you load and unload from the lower rack including an average of 50 pieces of silverware per load.

Yes if this were my only DW I would just have to get used to it, when WP came out with their TT DWs around 2001 I installed a TOL hidden control KA where this GE is currently and kept it for over 1 year. Overall it was about on par with this GE, poor drying, cleaning issues mainly in the corners of the top rack, it did not have the smelly filter filter th GE has.


John L.

Post# 868325 , Reply# 127   2/22/2016 at 07:29 (518 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
dishwasher grinder blades,

Have been eliminated by most in favor of quiet operation.

Post# 868586 , Reply# 128   2/23/2016 at 13:18 (517 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
pressure and volume

johnb300m's profile picture
Thanks John L!

My GE has a theme that's common in all types I'm noticing today.

In general, I'm pretty impressed with the wash action after shoving a camera inside. It's pretty powerful. But there's a catch!
The jets provide a lot of nozzle pressure to blast the dishes.
BUT....the volume of water is so small, that there doesn't seem to be enough flow to really flush out the dispensers or the walls of the tub or the outsides of some glasses.

It's the same thing in Andrew's amazing Whirlpool really. But WP has really improved their top rack performance by at least fanning out their narrow nozzles up there. Arguably spraying a wider swath of water volume on the load.

But the GE has the same needle jet spray on the top as on the bottom, and I don't think it does that well rinsing off the exterior of items.
I'll have fine grit on the outside of some glasses on the top rack still, at times. It's my one last annoyance with the machine.
As previously said, .....and oddly enough... the lower line s-shape spray arm has proven a better cleaner up top than the native x-arm.

Post# 868947 , Reply# 129   2/24/2016 at 22:43 (515 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Video! - Heavy Wash

johnb300m's profile picture
So I took another crack at it, this time with a Heavy Load of dishware, ala Murando.
It still just doesn't cut up to his quality, but it's the best I've done thus far, with two light sources. It's really TOUGH to light up the inside of a dishwasher. Jeez! And it doesn't help that most of my dishes are black! Haha.

So I go good footage of the lower and upper rack, as well as what the wash action is of the reversing wash arm at about 31:00.
See if you can spot the blob of mustard that slides off. Haha.
This also has the s-shaped upper wash arm installed, in place of the native x-arm on top.
It got a little blurry in the middle from steam and grease.


Post# 868970 , Reply# 130   2/25/2016 at 07:05 (515 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Nice video John!! I got a waterproof case for my Fuji and I did a test video of my KDM-21. Came out decent. I did it mostly to make sure my wash arm support was working ok...and it is! I'll make some more videos and post them.

Post# 869034 , Reply# 131   2/25/2016 at 12:39 (515 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Don't make fun of my video...I'm a virgin! *giggle*

This was the first test video I did. I need to play around with positioning to get a better angle and view but I can def see why they call these a "Hurricane in a Box"!

Post# 869068 , Reply# 132   2/25/2016 at 15:10 (515 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
GE catching on...

Seems like GE's catching onto Kitchenaid's former name - hurricane in a box.

Post# 869453 , Reply# 133   2/27/2016 at 16:58 (513 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
No. Sorry. The GE Profile is pretty decent with high pressure jets, but the water volume is lacking.
It's FAR and away from a boxed up hurricane.

Post# 869460 , Reply# 134   2/27/2016 at 17:18 (513 days old) by jerrod6 (Center City Philadelphia Pennsylvania, U.S.A)        

Nice KitchenAid test vid.  I would like to see more of this. I found it interesting since all of the KA my family had  and even the ones I had started to pump the water as soon as the first drops hit the sump even though all of the water had not entered.  So I guess the newer models waited until the fill completed?  I think my parents may have had a KDS16 or 17...not sure. 

Post# 869463 , Reply# 135   2/27/2016 at 17:54 (513 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Thanks! I made a full video too.

The only time mine starts as its filling is on the Pots/Pans cycle. Otherwise it fills and heats the water or in this case, fills and then the pump starts.

This machine keeps impressing me. Most days I can run it on Light Wash and it's done in about an hour and the dishes are spotless. :)

This post was last edited 02/27/2016 at 18:38
Post# 869951 , Reply# 136   3/1/2016 at 09:42 (510 days old) by glomain (tuscarawas cnty. (eastern ohio))        

glomain's profile picture
Joey now that's what I would call a DISHwasher,very nice

Post# 869982 , Reply# 137   3/1/2016 at 12:47 (510 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
yep - that's power!

The last few days, I've been watching dishwasher vid's on Youtube and I found a 1984 Whirlpool (just like my grandma had at her house) and I'm not 100 percent sure, but I think it's still there! She died in 2009 and her house is now being rented. The 1984 Whirlpool on Youtube looks almost identical to her Whirlpool, and the inside action was powerful, must like the kitchenaid you just posted. If it's still working, it would make it over 30 years old. I'm going to ask my dad next time I talk to him.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mark_wpduet's LINK

Post# 869994 , Reply# 138   3/1/2016 at 15:16 (510 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
HA! That's powerful!
Listen to it roar!
So much's covering the lens.

Post# 870003 , Reply# 139   3/1/2016 at 16:42 (510 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Just talked to my dad

mark_wpduet's profile picture
that Whirlpool dishwasher was replaced last year. This means it was 31 years old. OMG! And what's funny is I totally remember me and my grandma in her kitchen cleaning after lunch and the dishwasher was running and she hadn't had it very long at that point, and it was making a funny whining noise...I remember we looked at each other thinking it was gonna break.....and it would occasionally make that noise over the years..

Post# 870029 , Reply# 140   3/1/2016 at 18:40 (509 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
It's a beast of a machine! I loooooove it. It's indeed very powerful and why it cleans so fast lol. I have no idea how much water it uses but I'm not worried ;-)

Mark -- very cool video. I've seen that before. Those old Whirlpools were awesome. I just watched another commercial for a 1986 Whirlpool with electronic controls. Pretty sweet (corny 80s commercial) lol

Post# 870039 , Reply# 141   3/1/2016 at 19:24 (509 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Oh yea -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I can imagine the hurricane inside that one as well.....

but the definition of quiet back in 1986 for a dishwasher would probably be the loudest dishwasher you can buy today..

Post# 870048 , Reply# 142   3/1/2016 at 21:15 (509 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ)        

roto204's profile picture

"It's so quiet, I--oh, damn it, it says 'F7.'  What does that mean?"


I like how she deftly avoids knocking the glass over with the phone cord.


If Mom's dishwasher was that bad on the phone, she must have had a top-loading portable stainless-steel impellered Mobile Maid.  That dishwasher prevented conversation in the living room--although it performed beautifully.

Post# 870401 , Reply# 143   3/4/2016 at 01:41 (507 days old) by washer111 ()        

"... Listen to this!"

Whirlpool DW: Beeping randomly

"Well of course you hardly hear anything! Its my new Whirlpool dishwasher. Broken for the ten time this week!"
"Yes, its done!"
"Oh it cleaned great... Everything's completely smashed beyond recognition. Everyone just screamed.
And its so dreadful, we'll have to shout a little more"

"MUM?! Whats all that noise? Oh, its your dishwasher?"
"Yeah, I regret getting rid of ours too."

Commercial: "We're making your world a little crazier.... Whirlpool"

Post# 870413 , Reply# 144   3/4/2016 at 05:26 (507 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Washer 111,

That is many appliances today, but Dishwashers and dryers are Whirlpool USA's better points. For cooking ranges and ovens, It's GE, and for laundry washers, I would say right now Samsung.

Post# 870434 , Reply# 145   3/4/2016 at 07:52 (507 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
You forgot refrigerators

mark_wpduet's profile picture
and Samsung - really? OMG

Post# 870441 , Reply# 146   3/4/2016 at 08:03 (507 days old) by glomain (tuscarawas cnty. (eastern ohio))        

glomain's profile picture
mark you took the words right out of my mouth ! OMG

Post# 870443 , Reply# 147   3/4/2016 at 08:36 (507 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

well I will not buy another GE frige for sure. Our kids have a Whirlpool, and so far so good, but it is the small SxS with old fashioned non electronic control.
I know noting about Conquest and later refrigerators from Whirlpool as far as being better than GE.
What about the LG horizontal compressor?
What is wrong with Samsung washers? My sisters has outlasted my Bravos X. She has three kids. I am down to one.

Post# 870471 , Reply# 148   3/4/2016 at 12:08 (507 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I wouldn't take another Samsung appliance if it were given to me for free wrapped in gold. I just can't stand behind a company that proudly admits that their products are direct ripoffs of other companies, and doesn't care because by the time legal action could go through, they'll have made enough money to toss dollars to the court and be off on the next Whirlpool/GE/Apple/Google clone. The one appliance we have is our Samsung fridge, and it's been an awful experience, not because anything has actually malfunctioned, but because the design and build quality is just terrible. For a $1500 appliance, I expect much better, and had it been my choice it would have been a WP or even GE.

Also, the Bravos X/VMW Cabrio can't be compared to anything. It's not even a machine Whirlpool really focuses on. It's a side-thought they had from the agitator-DirectDrive successor after changing the drive system to a belt/splutch design (VMW), and they popped in a wash plate in place of the agitator, lowered the water level sensor parameters, and pushed it out in a basket down the Nile river hoping someone would mistake it for the real Oasis.

Post# 870472 , Reply# 149   3/4/2016 at 12:10 (507 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
It's just from what I've read

mark_wpduet's profile picture
on here and otherwise, Samsung would be my last choice of appliance brand. I like their phones though.

As far as fridges and ovens, knock on wood, but my WP sxs fridge and self cleaning oven and microwave are 12 yrs old this year. Nothing has ever been repaired on the oven or microwave, but the fridge had to have the ice maker replaced (which we did ourselves) about 6 or 7 years ago, and a capacitor went bad and had to have a repairman fix that.. And just this week, I've noticed the ice maker IS making ice, but it's making it so SLOWLY! The temp in the freezer is about 3 degrees and the fridge is 37 I'm thinking the ice maker may need to be replaced AGAIN soon.

Post# 870476 , Reply# 150   3/4/2016 at 12:43 (507 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Samsung, and to a lesser degree, LG, to me, represent that silly, goofy, techno-cutesy Asian flair that I have dislike for.
It's because of THEM that my GE dishwasher and my Maytag washer/dryer have to play a silly tune now at the end of every cycle.
Yes, not to mention the cheesiness of their designs and their REPREHENSIBLE stance on repair parts in the industry. It's so bad, I've said it before, that retailers have had to take on the responsibility of stocking LG/Samsung replacement parts because the companies refuse. So if you have a 2-3yr old LG/SSg appliance, good freakin' luck. NO PARTS. They've all been redesigned.

Post# 870480 , Reply# 151   3/4/2016 at 13:19 (507 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Murando, Glomain, johnb.300,

Murando, they are all made south of the border anyway. Have you even bought an appliance yet? Our son is your age, and if he had to buy one, he'd be clueless.
He writes code all day and studies.
The Bravos X belt drive brochure said "high end laundry at an affordable price."
The splutch drive system is the "world washer" design from Mexico, not the Nile.
Glomain, several opinions, and cheap plastic parts are in all brands.
Have you been to the Warther museum in Dover? It's amazing. He had real talent.
My mom was from Midland Pa.
johnb., Kenmore had buzzers and beeps in the 70's. the only difference today is they are electronically generated by the micro processors.

Post# 870484 , Reply# 152   3/4/2016 at 13:32 (507 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
I'm not talking about buzzes and beeps.
I'm talking about full-on tunes, that last multiples of seconds.

Also, ALL the ranges and fridges are not made in Mexico.
Half are, usually the low and mid price ones. But the other half are still made up here in the States.

Post# 870489 , Reply# 153   3/4/2016 at 13:41 (507 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

the parts are all from Mexico.

Post# 870501 , Reply# 154   3/4/2016 at 14:17 (507 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Every part on our refrigerator that I could research with close ups of the label say Made in Korea. I'm sure LG is the same because without logos, LGs and SSs seem to be clones of one another anyway.

Also, not counting ones in the direct family that were purchased under my influence and advice, I've personally bought nine. Rebuilt and restored three. Had so many appliances over my lifetime, parted out across the floor and then reassembled that are still running to this day, that I can't count them. And have been scouring every document, schematic, diagram, and blueprint I could find on appliances and many other machines since I began learning to read. I don't claim to be an expert, but age plays no determination in how much knowledge or experience a person can have on a particular subject. Pleased to meet ya.

Post# 870516 , Reply# 155   3/4/2016 at 14:56 (507 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
So if you have a 2-3yr old LG/SSg appliance, good freakin' luck. NO PARTS. They've all been redesigned.
The Feb-2011 (4 yrs 11 mos) Samsung frontloader I refurbed three weeks ago, all the needed parts (and plenty not-needed items) were immediately available from multiple online sources except a non-crucial anti-backflow flapper valve on the pump outlet port.

And yes, I'm aware of the tragedy that a 5-years-old machine needed substantial repairs and I'm not defending Samsung on that point ... the cause of failure was bad usage habits of the owners.  The point is that I had no trouble locating parts.

Post# 870517 , Reply# 156   3/4/2016 at 15:04 (507 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Well THAT's awesome DADoES!
Really. No sarcasm.
I've heard very different stories from relatives, AND staff members at Best Buy and Home Depot.
Sounds like you got lucky.

Post# 870543 , Reply# 157   3/4/2016 at 17:17 (507 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Samsung sources I found:,,,,,,

Post# 870544 , Reply# 158   3/4/2016 at 17:21 (507 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
johnb, Pleased as well mutually meeting.

Yes LG is in Korea, but my sister LG T.O.L. range is from Mexico.
Lucky Goldstar. Began in the USA in K Mart and other discount stores in the late 70's selling small TV's and microwave ovens.
Many FSP parts are used across different brands today.
A Whirlpool dishwasher may use the same wax motor as an LG, or Samsung. if they still even use them. They were know to overheat and fail, causing diverter ball to stick so only one rack would wash when you selected both, or visa versa.

Post# 870619 , Reply# 159   3/5/2016 at 04:08 (506 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

used to build some of their microwaves and televisions in Huntsville, AL.  I worked on the TV line in my previous career before nursing.

Post# 870643 , Reply# 160   3/5/2016 at 08:11 (506 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

For LG? You've really been around the block so to speak.
Chrysler had an electronics plant in Huntsville also.

Post# 870758 , Reply# 161   3/6/2016 at 00:08 (505 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

I remember, wasn't it called Acustar or something like that?  I remember driving by it a few times.  One of my dad's friends worked there.  Yeah it was Goldstar back then, now LG....Lucky-Goldstar.  I've been around the block a few times but I've been a nurse for 20 years now.

Post# 871385 , Reply# 162   3/8/2016 at 22:03 (502 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Dirty loads

johnb300m's profile picture
I ended up with a really full and dirty Profile load to run.
Had to share.
You know you like looking. :P

Heavy wash.
Temp Boost.
Cascade Platinum

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 871425 , Reply# 163   3/9/2016 at 05:00 (502 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
My Profile

also does a great job! I use liquid in the small dispenser, and a Finish tab with the red ball for the main wash.

Post# 871483 , Reply# 164   3/9/2016 at 09:01 (502 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Nice, vacerator!
Have you had any issues in the upper rack with washability and that x-arm?
It sometimes gives me sub par results; leaving grit in corner glassware or sometimes grit on the outside of glasses.

Last night's load was all clean except for a little spot of egg on my ceramic skillet.
The stainless pots were caked with dried pasta sauce. Powered clean by the reversing wash arm.

  View Full Size
Post# 871487 , Reply# 165   3/9/2016 at 09:21 (502 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

How does this machine wash and drain? It it a separate drain motor with a single wash motor?

Post# 871500 , Reply# 166   3/9/2016 at 10:42 (502 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
All of GE's current dishwashers, since aprox. 2012, are this new "filter cup" design with two pumps, turbidity sensor, and either a kinetic ball diverter, or the electronic diverter on the Profile line.

  View Full Size
Post# 871520 , Reply# 167   3/9/2016 at 12:41 (502 days old) by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Is the electronic diverter a disc type system like the Whirlpool uses? I had no idea they used another type alongside the kinetic ball valves. I suppose though that the ball-type valve is only effective when you only need to direct water one of two ways, whereas your GE and my WP have three or four different zones it can switch to.

The diverter valve motor assembly on mine is the only thing I worry about as far as longevity. I only saw one person's video whose valve started pouring water from underneath, but that was enough to have me paranoid for life. From what John L. said, however, it has apparently only been an issue with machines that get very very hard water, and have users that use cheap detergent along with washing dishes before loading them. Apparently the mineralizing and overdose of detergent causes the valve shaft to wear, causing the leak. But on the bright side, my dishes are always filthy, I always use high quality detergent and rinse aid, and should a problem arise, the valve is only ~$40-50, so it's not a huge deal.

I decided to put a square sheet of newspaper from the Sunday color paper directly under the machine that I can check periodically to catch if any thing starts to leak. If water droplets fall onto the paper, the ink will run and the paper will warp, so even if it's a slow leak that dries pretty quickly, I'll still be able to tell that water WAS there.

Post# 871536 , Reply# 168   3/9/2016 at 14:03 (502 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

Mine is a 2011 model, with blue spray arms. Not a top of the line one, so it only washes both racks. No Smart dispense either.
We rinse dishes, and run it every other day.
The anti-bacterial cycle with added heat takes approx. 78 to 86 minutes, depending on our hot water usage, and the season, as it is on an outside wall.
It does have a steam option. I have used it only once, on the pots and pans cycle
for a lasagne' baking dish.

Post# 871578 , Reply# 169   3/9/2016 at 17:39 (502 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Steam -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I remember when I first heard of a steam option in a dishwasher, I thought that was so stupid, because they ALL have steam coming from them when you open the door when the cycle is over.....But when I used the steam sanitize on my Maytag, and when it was done and I opened the door, My God! I've never seen that much steam come from a dishwasher in my freaking life. So I took back the thought I had about it being stupid.

Post# 871586 , Reply# 170   3/9/2016 at 18:13 (502 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

I know, right? The steam option on my GE is actually a pause to let water drip onto the heating element after the pre wash. It makes steam to help dissolve stuck or baked on foods.
The LG steam cycle, from what I understand actually heats water in a vessel and injects it into the tub.
I may be mistaken?
Take note, also I have no idea how it works in a Bosch, a Mile, or a Kitchen Aid.
Perhaps I will learn?

Post# 871699 , Reply# 171   3/10/2016 at 09:11 (501 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
@Andrew, I'm not completely sure at what actually does the diversion. It's a rather tall assembly with a pump input on the side, and 4 ports coming out of the top. I imagine there's some sort of rotating vane or disk that diverts water to 1 of the ports at a time, as it rotates through its switching cycle. Indeed you're right. I think they used an electronic diverter because yes, the Profile has 3 distinct water channels: the main arm 1, the main arm 2 and then the upper rack. The upper rack channel gets 2 conjoined ports, likely for engineering simplicity.
My parents' more plebeian GE has the mechanical diverter ball that flicks the pump power to manipulate it from switching to one of the 2 channels; upper or lower.
I think you're right, that the WP diverter has been mostly fixed? I have not heard anything about it in quite some time. And I'm thinking the GE one is a "self contained" unit with maybe no parts protruding out of the housing? Not sure. Never heard of an issue with those, period.

@vacerator, I'm jealous! Those were my favorite GEs ever. I think they clean exceptionally well. My parents used to have the old GSD6660, which was one notch below the Profile line in 2003. It cleaned fantastic every day of all those years. Minimal maintenance. I did clean out the XtraFine filter and little filter cup a couple times, more to get rid of years of lint. Otherwise it was great. Economical, easy to load, washed fast, dried great.
My parents were rather pissed when it died and they still haven't warmed to the 'new' GE GDF540 with the upper and lower silverware baskets.

-On Steam.
I think you're both right. The steam function on my Profile acts just as your machines seem to. It 'agitates' by spraying for several seconds and pausing, which it does for 5min or so. Then it'll just sit for 5-10min and I can hear the water dripping and sizzling on the heater rod.
IDK if it really makes much a difference...but I do use it if I want an extra "soaking" period which does seem to work with the tougher soils.
GE's logic was to introduce a soaking steam option for people to use with caked on dishes that have sat for days, opposed to letting them have access to a Rinse/Hold cycle.

Post# 875398 , Reply# 172   4/2/2016 at 22:42 (477 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Soap clogging filter?

johnb300m's profile picture
So about two weeks ago I ran out of cascade complete action packs. So I reverted back to my leftover box of seventh generation.
And if you remember much further up thread, I was having issues with my extra fine filter not really cleaning itself. Especially compared to Andrews pristine whirlpool.
But I have been subconsciously noticing that since going back to the seventh generation, which is working much better with Soft water, I have not had to clean the filter as much.
Well I really pushed it over the edge this time. I had an absolutely filthy pan of baked falafel.
I decided to put it right in on heavy wash with steam and Sani rinse.
It didn't come completely clean as you can see. But it was pretty damn impressive. What was much more surprising was how clean the filter actually was after that disgusting load.

I'm trying to think of variables but so far the only thing that has changed has been the soap situation from cascade to seventh generation.
I'm wondering if it has had an effect and if cascade maybe films the screen up for more.
I'm almost ready for a new box of soap so I'm thinking of trying a box of Finish powder, which this little family grocery store by me actually sells.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 875417 , Reply# 173   4/3/2016 at 06:22 (477 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Yeah not bad! Falafel is pretty hard when it bakes/dries so yes impressive. I think the Cascade would have gotten it all clean though haha. I bought a small bag of the Platinum pacs and they work very well. I put them in the prewash though because they create an incredible amount of suds...especially with my "Hurricane in a Box"! lol. In the main wash with just the one rinse after, it wasn't rinsing completely away. I found the Cascade Complete powder 125oz at a local discount store for only $5.99 a box! So I bought 2. I"m going to stick with that for now.

I used Finish all the time (in the powder) and it worked great. I didn't really notice any difference from the tablets...but it had been a while since I compared. I think you'll like it. It's fairly easy for me to find here too...though only a couple stores carry it. And yes, they are local chains..kinda weird that other places don't have it.

Let us know how you like it.

Post# 875494 , Reply# 174   4/3/2016 at 18:45 (477 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
@ John

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I do wonder to myself if that would have completely clean had you used the Cascade or even Finish, as opposed to the Seventh Generation.

Post# 875518 , Reply# 175   4/3/2016 at 21:04 (476 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I think that's what John was meaning, that using Cascade pacs was leaving the filter grimy while the 7th Gen. detergent seemed to leave it cleaner.

John, what is your rinse aid dispenser set to? If it isn't already, maybe try turning it down and see if that makes any difference when using the Cascade? Since you have your water softener worked out, it could be that the excess rinse aid is causing the filter to get more of a "slime" that is locking in some of the dirt? Perhaps because the 7th Gen detergent is more basic, it's keeping the water from being softened so much that it can now effectively flush some of the debris away.

Post# 875538 , Reply# 176   4/3/2016 at 23:36 (476 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
All good recommendations. I have my rinse aid dispenser set on the middle setting because any less and I was still getting some spotting. Even though the salt system makes the water very nicely soft. It's still leave some salty spots though not nearly as bad as hard water spots. But I could try turning it down a little. It's possible a combination of The cascade with the heavy dose of rinse aid was gumming up the works.
I wonder if it's something specific with the action packs. Because my parents use regular cascade powder and their GE filter is almost perfectly clean even after a month. Although they have harder Chicago water.
There are just so many variables.

I'll play with the rinse aid dispenser a little bit and then I'll try out the finish powder first in about a week.
Then I'll try cascade complete powder.
I just like the idea of powder boxes better because then it's easier to divide dosages especially when running half loads. It's silly to dump a whole cascade platinum pack when I'm doing just an upper rack wash ha ha!

Post# 875560 , Reply# 177   4/4/2016 at 06:33 (476 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I imagine the Cascade pacs have some sort of rinse aid in them too...I know the Platinums do. Just have to experiment and see :)

Post# 875585 , Reply# 178   4/4/2016 at 10:31 (476 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
cascade complete

Cascade Complete has rinse aid in it too.

Post# 876724 , Reply# 179   4/12/2016 at 09:43 (468 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
To the max

johnb300m's profile picture
Ok so I Bobloaded the F&@$ outta this thing last night LOL!
Only one "reject" with a bowl that has a bit of cucumber skin in it, and it flaked right off.

Heavy, Boost, Steam, Bottle Jets, 186min.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 876730 , Reply# 180   4/12/2016 at 10:13 (468 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
yep, that's a bob load.

mark_wpduet's profile picture
What is that fluorescent light green thing? Is that for a mold of some kind? It almost looks like an ice tray.

anyway -
Do you think the packs and tabs are bad for our dishwashers?

Get this, I was looking at reviews on Amazon and came across Finish Gel, which I've never used. Look at the pics of what this stuff did to this person's dishwasher. It should be the first review.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mark_wpduet's LINK

Post# 876735 , Reply# 181   4/12/2016 at 10:54 (468 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
finish gel

johnb300m's profile picture
HOLY (*&)^&$%#$#@$%^%^(&*()^%
I know gel is mostly crap, but dang! I've never seen anything bad like that!
Yeah that's enough to BAN gel from my house forever.
I know there's people who LOVE gel, but with these newer machines, with smaller passage ways etc, I cannot see gel being good at all.

I DO, Mark, think the packs and tabs are perfectly safe for our machines.
No worries there.
I'm just not fond of their "once size fits all" scheme, especially when I want to run half loads. In addition, I think they're too strong for my very soft water, so I'd rather meter my doses manually to protect my glassware.

Those green things are indeed ice trays.
I HATED my old plastic ones where the ice would always get stuck and shatter. So I'll try these IKEA silicone trays out.

Post# 876740 , Reply# 182   4/12/2016 at 12:42 (468 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I can imagine what the tabs must be like

mark_wpduet's profile picture
in SOFT water! The water here in Lexington is pretty hard. Not the worst in the country, but still it's moderately hard. And even still, one time I had a sample of Finish Quantum (NOT powerball, which is what I use now) and you could hear the dishwasher straining to wash because of all the suds. I can only freaking imagine what that would be like in soft water conditions if it acted like that in hard water. Anyway, running half loads are not a problem for me since my machine won't do that, so it gets ran on a bob load almost every time..

I wonder why GEL would be worse than a hard tab or powder though? I mean, in my mind, it's almost like liquid vs powder laundry detergent. I would think liquid would be more likely to dissolve and wash away....but I guess not.

I know some people on these forums use a little gel in the prewash to get the chlorine bleach action, but they use tabs in the main wash...I think it was DADOES who said that but I'm not sure...I think some gels contain bleach. Me? I just pour a little bleach in at the beginning.

Post# 876748 , Reply# 183   4/12/2016 at 14:06 (468 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
That poor Voyager!!! I can't believe how bad that was?! I wonder if they had some kind of buildup before using that gel, and the gel made it that much worse.

I've been at the point for the past five or so years that I'd never put powder or liquid gel detergents in my dishwasher again. Years ago, powders were the manufacturers' flagships, so all their premium ingredients went into them. Now, powders and liquids are primarily BOL and cheap, and I've seen with my own eyes what using them does to anyone's machine. I've been on my mother-in-law about using Publix and Kroger brand "lemon" gel in the new Maytag, and even in her old Whirlpool at the old house (I'm talking like a 1970s era WP Imperial, beautiful machine I might add) and after bringing some Cascade and Finish pacs/tablets, she finally saw the difference I was begging her to see.

There have been a few times I've bought a small box of Cascade Complete powder, primarily when I was using the PowerClean, just to throw a dash in the prewash for extra dirty loads, but the few times I'd try using solely the powder, my plastics would feel gritty, and the racks themselves would feel "chaulky" to pull in and out. With the Maytag Voyager I had and now the new Whirlpool, I haven't had a need to try any extras. Surprisingly, despite my WP being TOL and having a diverter, there is no Top Rack/Bottom Rack Only option, perhaps because it uses so little water anyway, and those options only used to shave off 10-15 minutes from the Normal cycle in machines that have had them in the past; if I wanted to run a half load I'd still only be using about 2.5 gallons and the timer would knock down to under 2 hours because of low soil levels.

Pacs and tablets for me are the only things I'll touch now because A) they are usually complete with rinse aid and protector agents for dishes and the machine both, and B) because all modern dishwashers are being designed specifically for use with them, which explains the shapes of the cups like in my WP and John's GE.

As far as the fixed dose for unitized detergents, I myself haven't really had an issue because I only ever wash full and dirty loads in the dishwasher. Laundry detergent pacs, on the other hand, don't do well for me simply because there are so many variables with laundry. You can have a heavily soiled but small load, or a large load that isn't very dirty, but the soil level isn't as easy to determine on clothes as it is with dishes. Every time I try a tub of Tide pods or something similar, I end up with a washer full of suds even with a large load of clothes, or with no fizzing in the water at all and a question of "was this enough detergent, do I need to toss in another and then have too much, why do these clothes not smell as "scented" as the last load", where powders and some liquids are much easier to adjust per circumstance.

Post# 876755 , Reply# 184   4/12/2016 at 15:09 (468 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Dishwashers should be more sensitive to dosing in theory, but I guess the fact that you have to dose powders in such small quantities (like, 20-30ml, basicly a small shot glass), it is easy to miss by a big percentage.

For example, lets say your knock you standard 20ml detergent dose down by 25% for a smaller load, you should be dosing about 15ml. 10% measurement inaccuracy should be not uncommon; you and up with max of 17ml for a half load and 18ml min for a full load.
Given the human error, doseing of detergents isn't verry accurate anyways.

Further, the amount of water a DW needs per fill is pretty consistent independend of load size, simply due to dishes not absorbing water and the amount to wet them being reall small. Thus, the concentration of detergent is pretty consistent.

And, last but not least, I guess manufacturers take sensor cycles into account. If you have a heavy soiled load which triggers one or even 2 prewashes, the main wash might end up less contaminated then a medium soil load that dosen't trigger any prewash. So, the actual soil in the main wash isn't directly related to the soil when you load.

On the topic of detergent for the prewash: We have these compacted powder kind of tablets, and if I feel the need for prewash detergent - especilly with our smaller dishwasher - I just break of a corner and throw it in. Gives me at least some peace of mind.

Post# 876817 , Reply# 185   4/12/2016 at 20:01 (467 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Overally complicated

I will take a Whirlpool power clean or 1985 GSD940 any day. Personally I see no improvements other than gimmicks to compensate for having a drain pump as a wash motors. The lack of soft food disposer is also rather off putting. I know people appreciate modern appliances and I do admire some of the new advances, but personally I dont see any of it as a real improvement.

Post# 876820 , Reply# 186   4/12/2016 at 20:28 (467 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Nice load John! Hahahaha.

Funny I used the Cascade Platinum packs in my Hobart and they cleaned fine but the machine made this horrible groan noise when it drained and then stopped. Went back to the Cascade Complete powder and it's been fine. I wonder if the extra froth caused problems in this older machine. She didn't sound happy! I used the whole package too so it wasn't just a one time thing. I didn't even use the dispenser cups. Just through one in the sump area. It needed the extra water only cycles to wash away all the suds!

I've had excellent results with the Cascade Complete powder. I haven't tried Finish yet in this machine though. But it's a beast so I don't think the detergent would take away much from its cleaning performance lol.

Post# 876848 , Reply# 187   4/13/2016 at 00:28 (467 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Special soft water detergent packs

askolover's profile picture

We got some of those to try...wash well, smell good too.  Probably won't get anymore though because they do cost a little more.  Since we've been adding the pack to the very beginning of the cycle I haven't noticed anymore foaming issues.  I remember back in the '80s and '90's reading on the back of a Palmolive liquid bottle that it had something in it to make it congeal in the cup so it wouldn't just run out while the DW was running.  I don't know if it's still that way now.  Those pics look as though they may have been using way too much gel for so little water that probably wasn't hot enough at that.  My old '97 Maytag ran best with gel in both cups.  The first time I disassembled the filter I was amazed at how clean it was in there..only a small piece of plastic wrapper.

Post# 876881 , Reply# 188   4/13/2016 at 08:43 (467 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
All fascinating input.

Believe it or not, I've not gotten ANY foaming issues in the GE Profile as of yet, even with the action pacs. I'm wondering if the water action just isn't VIOLENT enough?

Andrew's right. Cascade's COMPLETE powder used to be top of the line. Then the pacs came. Everything was reformulated without phosphates, and anyone in hard water started getting a chalky build-up.
I remember this vividly! Everyone thought the "new" dishwashers were crap! Whirlpool's first Voyagers came out around the same time and I remember seeing pics of units with tons of chalky buildup and stains/streaks on the doors and dispensers.
But that all eventually got fixed, BUT only in the tabs and action pacs.
So yeah, I guess the tabs really are the way to go now?
And Cascade Complete is just a relic that was left in the dust, literally.
There's also no doubt the detergent cups are specifically designed for tabs in mind too, for sure.

Oddly enough, I've had good luck with Finish's "gel pacs" in former machines, albeit they don't scrub pots very well. However all regular dishes come out great. Maybe that's a better formulated gel?

Joey, I too have had the experience of the the Finish tabs (white/blue bricks) foaming up a lot in past BOL machines, with more violent wash action, like your KA! Haha. It's been a problem for YEARS!
Can't believe they don't fix it.

And Mark! That's very odd because the Finish Quantum is what I moved to, to get away from the excess foam. Ha!
So WEIRD how these same products act differently in different machines and different water conditions.

Post# 876894 , Reply# 189   4/13/2016 at 12:39 (467 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Don't get me wrong -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
the finish quantum did a great job of cleaning the dishes. Everything was rinsed away...but I have never heard the dishwasher make that sound while washing until I used the finish quantum. You could hear it straining to wash....I used the samples up and never bought it again. I do not notice this with powerball. But yea, that's weird that you don't have any foaming in soft water, yet I did in hard water. Wild!

Post# 877012 , Reply# 190   4/14/2016 at 06:44 (466 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Those pacs do make a ton of suds, especially with more vigorous wash action. Every new washer I've seen doesn't have as intense of wash action, and of course they use less water. I really did like the results from the Platinum pacs but my old girl didn't lol. Didn't hear much of a strain, it was just a loud groan after the drain sequence stopped. Maybe it was like a beer burp? hahahaha

Post# 877017 , Reply# 191   4/14/2016 at 07:02 (466 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

inside a dishwasher impair performance.
I rinse food off our dishes, use Cascade gel in the small cup, and a Finish powerball tablet in the main wash cup.
My dishes are always clean and sanitized. I do use the added heat option with the anti-bacterial cycle.
A dishwasher is a sanitizer mainly before a scrubber.
Heat is an enemy of electronics. Use that long high heat pots and pans cycle too often and the control board may fry.

Post# 877060 , Reply# 192   4/14/2016 at 12:33 (466 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
With my 2005 voyager WP

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I used the pots/pans (longest cycle), hi temp, and the control board never went. Instead, the motor went..

I'm assuming you use the cascade gel in the prewash to get the bleach, right?

Post# 877063 , Reply# 193   4/14/2016 at 12:46 (466 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
A still from my Cascade Platinum review video. I had the same suds issue when I tried Fairy Platinum pacs from the UK years ago.

  View Full Size
Post# 877166 , Reply# 194   4/15/2016 at 07:43 (465 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Yes Mark,

but the original finish tabs have bleach also.
I actually use whatever brand of liquid is on sale.
I have been told by one technician that using a lot of cascade liquid and some others can leave a residue which can make the racks bind on the interior.
Said to watch for a white heating element. I haven't had a problem. I do not have very hard water, so that may also help.
A relative has well water, and has already had to replace the dishwasher they got in 2010 because of mineral deposit build up.

Post# 877171 , Reply# 195   4/15/2016 at 08:18 (465 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
That's why I use STPP in my dishwasher. I was mixing it in with my detergent daily but since having issues with the ETD tests at work, I now put some in once a week to keep mineral build up down. Really even after 1 use, it removes a lot of the white residue. I don't have hard water here but in Tucson we did. I wish I had known about STPP then! haha.

Post# 877181 , Reply# 196   4/15/2016 at 10:57 (465 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
New Detergent

johnb300m's profile picture
Ok I bought some plain pacs of Cascade-with dawn.
I'm sure they'll be 'great' LOL.

  View Full Size
Post# 877184 , Reply# 197   4/15/2016 at 12:24 (465 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Really John, PLAIN Cascade? Like it's only 6X Power. You need the 100X Power of Super Cascade Rhodium Diamond coated pacs with Ultra wicked concentrated Dawn with Febreeze and Clorox and Nuclear powered dirt blasting power that will clean MY dishes all the way from Chicago to New Hampsha!!! I expected so much more from you!


In all seriousness though, I'm sure they will work just fine. Can't wait to see your next load! LOL ;-)

Post# 877205 , Reply# 198   4/15/2016 at 15:14 (465 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

I have to admit I rarely if ever use pacs... how do they compare to powdered?

Post# 877224 , Reply# 199   4/15/2016 at 17:55 (465 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Cascade with Dawn

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Makes me think of the TV shows I've seen where someone puts liquid dish detergent in the dishwasher because they are out of automatic dishwasher detergent. It must be low sudsy dawn or something.

I think I have this mental BLOCK against any of the new Cascade, whether it be packs, power, or gel or whatever - It must be back when they first started taking phosphates out and their detergent was horrible. I guess years have gone by and they have improved it a lot. I know the platinum is supposed to be their best -

When I put a little stpp in with my finish powerball, the stainless interior looks so much shinier

Too bad your relative had to replace their dishwasher because of mineral buildup. You can use unsweetened lemonade drink mix powder and run and empty cycle and it cleans all the minerals out. It's full of citric acid.

Post# 877230 , Reply# 200   4/15/2016 at 18:30 (465 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Cascade does work very well. I've been using the Complete powder and it's cleaned anything I've put in my KA. I'm sure the time right after taking phosphates out was a transition period. Seems odd they wouldn't have any idea how it would affect cleaning, but whatever. My powder says it has the cleaning power of Dawn too...and when I open the door to peak, the suds dissipate very quickly to the point where it doesn't look like there are any. The Platinum pacs looked like a sea of suds lol.

Post# 877256 , Reply# 201   4/15/2016 at 22:25 (464 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Cascade with Dawn

askolover's profile picture

those do clean well but my Jetclean did NOT like them!  I could hear the wash arm slow down when I used them.  Haven't tried them in the KA.

Post# 877269 , Reply# 202   4/15/2016 at 23:13 (464 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
It's odd how different people can have such different results and behaviors from the same detergent. For me, Cascade Complete and Platinum are really the only thing I have trust in. I've never had any issue with pumps laboring or lack of performance. I go back and forth between Complete and Platinum pacs depending on what I have coupons for, but I really don't see much a difference between the two. They both do an excellent job and don't leave any weird residues at all, and the stainless interior always looks sparkling when done. Finish Powerball tabs, on the otherhand, don't cause any sudsing problems, but they do sometimes leave just the slightest chaulky residue on plastics, and can leave a sort of film on the bottom of the tub that's almost like..microscopic suds or something. Quantum pacs are a complete no-go for me; oversudsing to the extreme and no better performance in cleaning than the Powerball tabs.

My granddad, however, doesn't like Cascade pacs, but gets excellent results with Finish tabs in their '08 Kenmore Elite Ultrawash-Voyager. They also live in Tuscumbia where the water is *HORRENDOUSLY* hard, as in he has to have a filter installed between the fill line hookup and the dishwasher because they were having major problems with the inlet screen and valve getting scale buildup. They had to get rid of a perfectly good and BEAUTIFUL Maytag JetClean ReverseRack that had gorgeous solid state controls, simply because the holes on the wash arms were so tiny that even the slightest mineral buildup would render the machine useless. He'd have to take the thing apart to descale it every other month or so.

So that all said, I think performance and behavior of detergent relies heavily on water type, as well as the type of machine. I guess with so many variables it's a good thing we at least have some variety when it comes to detergents on the store shelves.

Post# 877293 , Reply# 203   4/16/2016 at 02:31 (464 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Interestingly, the main ingredient in the, I guess, "with Dawn" part of the Platinum Pacs is antifoam agent. Other than that, it's mainly colored water.

  View Full Size
Post# 877297 , Reply# 204   4/16/2016 at 06:40 (464 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
@Andrew - I know it's weird huh? I think a lot of has to do with water situations, but also the machine itself. They all do their own thing so to speak so I guess the detergent can have different results.

I haven't experimented much with dishwasher detergent so I'm really limited to just a few brands that I have knowledge about.

Post# 877299 , Reply# 205   4/16/2016 at 07:06 (464 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

Dad used to tell me if suds were a problem in the D/W, to add 1/4 cup vegetable oil to it empty, and run it on a light wash.

Post# 877304 , Reply# 206   4/16/2016 at 08:18 (464 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
No actual Dawn in my Cascade!
Damn it!
P&G marketing jerking themselves off again!

Honestly? For a while, with heavy/greasy loads, I'd put a nickel sized blob of dawn dish liquid on the door.

Seems to work ok.

Post# 877328 , Reply# 207   4/16/2016 at 12:15 (464 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I add dishwashing liquid to every prewash. Works flawlessly.

Post# 877334 , Reply# 208   4/16/2016 at 13:12 (464 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Must be a nightmare

mark_wpduet's profile picture
for detergent companies to make detergents considering the major variables in people's water.

@ Andrew - I might try the Cascade packs when I'm done with the HUGE box of Finish powerball I have from costco. I don't get any residue at all but that might be because I add a wee bit of STPP in the main wash with the powerball. I dunno.

I think ONE time I had a sample of Cascade Platinum (but I may have just dreamed that), I don't remember anything other than the quantum causing any suds out of all the brands I have tried.

Do any of you have sediment in your toilet tanks? At the bottom? I never do at all but I've heard that's one of the ways to tell the quality of your water? I don't know. But I can only imagine what the inside of my hot water heater looks like. I remember someone posted something a LONG time ago on here. Their Miele dishwasher had a fishy smell, no matter what they did. They tried everything, and it ended up being their freaking HOT water heater of all things.

Post# 877359 , Reply# 209   4/16/2016 at 17:59 (464 days old) by jerrod6 (Center City Philadelphia Pennsylvania, U.S.A)        

Cascade with Dawn is nothing but a marketing thing.  People associate Dawn with liquid Dawn dish detergent that is good on grease.  P&G knows this so they make Cascade with Dawn that must be good on Grease because it is Dawn...except it is not.  I wonder if the container says with the power of Dawn?  Anytime anything says with the "power of" on can bet it doesn't contain the  product.  Just like the product Finish "with the power of Jet dry"  No jet dry ingredients can be found in it. 


Just like products with bleach.....the assumption is chlorine bleach..never mind that it is most likely oxygen bleach.


Tide with Febreze. Febreze is P&G trademark for that's all that is...some type of scent added to Tide.  Glad trash bags with Febreze...."OH it contains Febreze so lets buy this"....Yeah...

It's all marketing and not much works for companies as long as it sells their products.  Meanwhile consumers are led along.....and follow.

Post# 877381 , Reply# 210   4/16/2016 at 21:34 (463 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

yeah Jerrod, even the Cascade powder with the power of Clorox...has no Clorox in it.  Now the gel does but not the powder.

Post# 877483 , Reply# 211   4/17/2016 at 20:27 (462 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
So the Cascade worked well.
We cleaned pretty much everything in the machine except for a stainless steel pan. Which was technically clean but he left this weird surface stain.
The filter was also sort of decent except there was some film left in there as well. But not nearly as bad as with the cascade platinum!

  View Full Size
Post# 877521 , Reply# 212   4/18/2016 at 06:01 (462 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Nice! That happens to my stainless pans too...they come out perfectly clean but have the rainbow effect. I usually then scrub them with Barkeeper's Friend and they look brand new.

Post# 877527 , Reply# 213   4/18/2016 at 07:34 (462 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
I don't put good pans

in the DW. It removes the seasoning on them.

Post# 877547 , Reply# 214   4/18/2016 at 10:02 (462 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Stainless pans don't have seasoning.

Post# 877626 , Reply# 215   4/18/2016 at 23:37 (461 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Barkeepers friend

askolover's profile picture

works on my stainless too.  After cooking beans or peas especially I get that result left on the bottom even though they are clean.  Have used Comet and Bon Ami too.

Post# 877657 , Reply# 216   4/19/2016 at 06:19 (461 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
But be careful you'll scrub off the stainless seasoning! hahahaha :-D

Post# 877675 , Reply# 217   4/19/2016 at 07:57 (461 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
whatever you think

but, when you coat a stainless steel pan with oil, as with cast iron, and heat it just to the smoke point, that pan is seasoned to have a level on non stick property.
Washing it at high temperature removes the oil out of it. It also dulls good cutlery.
I've been watching Julia Child since age nine.

Post# 877689 , Reply# 218   4/19/2016 at 09:49 (461 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Pointless of seasoning a stainless pan.
Why bother?
That's what iron skillets, ceramics are for.
To each their own.
Good for Julia Child ruining her stainless. She could afford it.

Post# 877691 , Reply# 219   4/19/2016 at 09:55 (461 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        
Stainless Seasoning

It seems what's being referred to is carbon steel actually - fantastic and cheap professional material that requires seasoning and should never be washed in a dishwasher.

Post# 877697 , Reply# 220   4/19/2016 at 10:22 (461 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

Julia didn't ruin any pans. She was who I learned it from, and washingpowder, correct. Stainless is high carbon steel with or without 8 to 10 percent nickel.
If it is magnetic, it has no nickel added. If it isn't, it does.
Maybe Joeypete needs a mirror? D? Bye.

Post# 877709 , Reply# 221   4/19/2016 at 11:25 (461 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Well, I learned from the lovely women in my family, who would cook you a 5-star meal, curse you out, and give you blessings all at the same time, in the same breath. Never have I heard to season stainless steel cookware. Oils don't bind to stainless the same way they do with cast iron. Anytime oils start to stick to my All-Clad pans before I get the chance to clean them all with Barkeepers every few weeks, the pans start sticking worse. The oils become sort of like cementy-super glue, and in addition to making cooking in them a pain, they also look horrid. My skillets, however, never see a drop of soap, nor do my nonstick baking sheets. Those are seasoned to perfection, and like my grandmother would, I'll hospitalize anyone who puts my skillets or baking sheets in soap or the dishwasher haha.

99% of the time though, my cookware never sees the inside of the dishwasher, primarily because I don't like taking up the extra space. In the area a sauce pan would sit, I could put four or five plates, and honestly I like the aesthetic appeal of a dishwasher full of only "eating" dishes and utensils rather than a few large bulky items. I think the current Whirlpool has only seen one small frying pan since having it, but that was probably a day when I was just in a mood and didn't give a crap. I was pleased with how sparkly it came out though.

I think you'll like the normal Cascade packs, John. I honestly don't see that much of a difference in performance between them, the Complete, and the Platinum versions. I wonder really how many differences there actually are. The only small difference I do notice is the sparkle of the tub floor with Platinum, versus the few splotches of hazy residue with the regular, but the dishes are always sparkling and squeaky clean. I wonder if there would be a more noticeable difference if I stopped using rinse aid, but for my machine's well being, I'd rather not test it.

Post# 877738 , Reply# 222   4/19/2016 at 13:05 (461 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        


If you stretch it, you could call SS a carbon steel product, as it does indeed contain carbon; however speaking of cookware those are two completely different materials. Plain carbon steel pans that Julia talked about a number of times require seasoning. It adheres very nicely and actually becomes almost non-stick, just like cast iron.
Stainless steel is a much stronger alloy with chromium added, at the very least.
It's durable, won't react with acidic ingredients or darken what's being cooked (like CS). Seasoning is done to prevent rusting and damage to the surface, and create a non-stick layer. SS already had those properties except for the last one, which is why it's so wonderful for searing and caramelizing and so on as you can deglaze it beautifully.
IMO seasoning a SS pan is pointless and creates more finicky finish than the material itself.

Post# 877752 , Reply# 223   4/19/2016 at 15:23 (461 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

I understand that all SS has chromium in it. I have my moms vintage SS Oneida flatware. It is not 18/10, and the cleaning instructions say no lemon detergents because it can react with it.
I agree about the SS pans and I normally sear in enameled cast iron.

Post# 877855 , Reply# 224   4/20/2016 at 06:33 (460 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I have no hesitations putting SS pans in the dishwasher. My mom did for YEARS and they lasted forever. Back then we never even tried to take the rainbow effect off...they were used so often it didn't matter really.

  View Full Size
Post# 877893 , Reply# 225   4/20/2016 at 10:53 (460 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
Lmaoooo. Now THAT is a mirror!! :D

Post# 878155 , Reply# 226   4/22/2016 at 07:27 (458 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
At least

there are no skeletons in that mirror, or orphaned appliances or parts.

Post# 878367 , Reply# 227   4/24/2016 at 12:31 (456 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture

"99% of the time though, my cookware never sees the inside of the dishwasher, primarily because I don't like taking up the extra space."


Try placing pans along the side of the dishwasher and tilt bowls - that'll give you some extra room.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 878370 , Reply# 228   4/24/2016 at 12:38 (456 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
That's one packed machine!

Post# 878392 , Reply# 229   4/24/2016 at 16:23 (456 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

Personally, I find it extremely boring to deal with a load comprised of nothing but dishware.  It's very predictable-hence boring.  It's nice once in a while to deal with a large dinner gathering and load the dishes and it looks like a user guide/manual.  I cannot tell you how many times over the years that when I finish loading for this type of situation, remarks are made to me that it looks like a picture from the manufacturer or user manual.  But if I had to do this day in and day out, I'd end up in a psych ward due to boredom.  Loading all sorts of pots, pans, prep bowls, ... as well as not believing in rinsing for decades, that's where it's at for me.  It ME vs. the machine.  (Man vs. machinery and technology) How much can I get in there when I need to as well as how dirty is the soil level going to be before the machine cannot handle it.  (That's aside from why we all know rinsing is bad--causes etching on glasses, the rack coating to be eaten away and racks begin to rust, as well as premature degrading and breaking of pump/motor seals/failure).  Many people don't realize the vast majority of unrinsed food soil is flushed away with the prewash and not a whole lot is left for the main wash.  Now, I do like dishes that do fit neatly in the machine.  Once had a friend observe me as I was ihn the midst of putting a BobLoad in their dishwasher.  He just stood there and kept watching as I sometimes rearranged to get more in.  At one point he commented to me, I know you're trying to prove a point andl and all, but I don't think you can get anything else in.  I managed to squeeze the lst bit in.  He also found out what the cup shelf can be used for too lol.  But such as today's cereal bowls look like serving dishes or small mixing/prep bowls, worse are the "footed" ones like these.  They take up a huge amount of space because you cannot easily line them up in adjacent tines.  Began seeing this with the Corelle dishes.  It's gotten to the point where "salad" plates are 8 or 9" and "dinner" plates are 11" or 12" in diameter.  Those used to be considered serving platters.  And it encourages over eating.  Some have commented to me they need the larger cereal bowls because they are messy and slosh/spill things.  My reply, put a salad plate or dinner plate under it to catch the mess (kind of like cup & saucer--I've been known to put saucers under mugs for that reason.  Now days, I look at dishes being sold in Macys, Target, WallyWorld, and many all fit the scenarios I describe.  And I immediately think, would be hell to try to logically load in dishwashers.  I had friends in the 1990s that had gotten dishes at like Pottery Barn or similar.  their cereal bowls were so big, the only place they could be placed in their Whirlpool produced Kenmore UltraWash was along the outer edges of the 3 sides of the bottom rack and in between each parallel rows of tines going horizontally across the bottom rack.  I kept think, what a huge waste of space. 

Post# 878399 , Reply# 230   4/24/2016 at 18:41 (456 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I can't say I've ever loaded a dishwasher with just "dishes". Even as a kid in a family of 4, our dishwasher had all kinds of stuff in it. Now of course, being single, I don't use a lot of dishes. Most times there's maybe 1 actual dish in there haha. I run my machine everyday and usually it's not completely full (unless I cooked). I use the same Tupperware salad bowl and accessories everyday, as well as my blender so I have to run the machine daily. I know, I know...wash by hand you say....Homey don't play dat! I put everything I can in the dishwasher....hahahahaha. I'm such a typical bachelors sometimes...when I'm not the Evil Queen gazing into the magic mirror! LOL ;-)

Post# 881222 , Reply# 231   5/17/2016 at 16:10 (433 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Had a pretty massive load after my housewarming party.
Auto sense, temp boost, bottle jets. 198 minutes. Plain Cascade pac.
Everything came out clean!


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 881245 , Reply# 232   5/17/2016 at 19:07 (433 days old) by ilovewindex (Tualitan OR)        

ilovewindex's profile picture
I notice yours has slightly bigger racks vs mine with narrower racks and the silverwear baskets attached to em... So far im digging the baskets on the front

Post# 881264 , Reply# 233   5/18/2016 at 00:22 (432 days old) by ilovewindex (Tualitan OR)        
Bed Bath and Beyonce Sale on Quantam Tabs,,, Worth a Try

ilovewindex's profile picture
So i bought 228 QUantuam Max tablets for $15 from BBB as a special they had $(2 for 5 for 76 Tabs)... I like the cascade, but the price scared me off.. If they work, ill go buy the rest and have a pile of soap forever

Ill see how foamy they make the GE tonight... Almost onto the 3rd load.. Second was perfect with the cascade pack and auto sense, just 1 dirty cookie sheet that got almost clean

Post# 881312 , Reply# 234   5/18/2016 at 11:24 (432 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Yessir, ilovewindex.
The racks on my particular GE are a little longer due to having only 1 traditional silverware basket on the lower side.
I like that better since I usually have more dishes and cookware.

But my parents usually entertain and have family over, so I picked the dual silverware basket design for them, like you have.
It does sacrifice a little bit of rack space, but on holidays, we use up every bit of those dual silverware baskets.

I'm currently going through a 60ct bucket of cascade.
I think I'll try out some Finish afterward. Ya know....for science!

Post# 881399 , Reply# 235   5/19/2016 at 00:35 (431 days old) by ilovewindex (Tualitan OR)        

ilovewindex's profile picture
The Quantuam Tabd did excellent last night and everything came out clean.. No sudsing either (i checked mid cycle)... I did notice my tablet fell in the basket with the utensils, so im not keene on that, but we will see

Im loving it... Im sure this is the last of the Good GE's as it seems to be a left over 2013 design... But i still love it

Post# 881403 , Reply# 236   5/19/2016 at 01:28 (431 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

I've opted NOT to stock up on Tablets and pod of detergent.  I did that last year and now I'm a little over half way through my stock and the Quantum tablets in the foil pack seem to be "dried" out for some reason and harder to open, and the Cascade gel packs are getting hard.  I think a 6 month supply is optimum for me.

Post# 881416 , Reply# 237   5/19/2016 at 07:03 (431 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
If I had a new washer, I would def use pods/pacs because they are designed for modern machines. My old Hobart doesn't like them...too many suds. They do clean very well though.

Post# 881613 , Reply# 238   5/20/2016 at 23:49 (429 days old) by ilovewindex (Tualitan OR)        

ilovewindex's profile picture
Its worth a shot here in the damp PNW

Post# 900229 , Reply# 239   9/23/2016 at 19:40 (303 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Behind the Door; 2.0

johnb300m's profile picture
I've updated my lighting and video technology, and have taken a 2nd stab at 'behind the door' footage, in the chase to meet Murando's cinematic standards.

A few notes.
The machine isn't set up anymore 100% OEM.
It's running the standard issue GE S-shape middle arm. Which helped clean in corners better.
I've also added a couple small holes to the top sprinkler arm. Which has slowed it down a bit. (Ala old Maytag's slow rolling top wash arms)
In one scene, I put back the Profile series X-middle wash arm to show that as well.
It's an interesting difference.



Post# 900240 , Reply# 240   9/23/2016 at 21:59 (303 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

The middle X bar almost seems to focus more water on the lower rack rather than the top.  I'd like to see one of these videos with a load of dishes in place to see how the water jets actually function in normal use. 

Post# 900283 , Reply# 241   9/24/2016 at 07:14 (303 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Cool John!! That X arm is pretty sweet.

Post# 900441 , Reply# 242   9/25/2016 at 14:11 (302 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
I'm impressed with this GE more now with the good lighting in this video. It seems to have very well-placed and powerful jets. The X-arms they use look to me like some kind of ninja katana, haha. I definitely see the improvement of you switching out for the S-shaped upper arm though. The jets seem to hit the ceiling with much more oomph than the X-arm did. It'll be interesting to see how the idea you mentioned of capping off the bottle jets when not needed will help improve power to the upper rack even more.

Post# 900505 , Reply# 243   9/26/2016 at 07:16 (301 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Pushing water

through more jets may help cleaning ability with lower water use and pump pressures. Maybe the arm spins faster. I don't know for sure, mine has the older blue S arms, and my dishes get squeaky clean.
The tall item jets are a good idea, because before, the bottoms never got washed, unless maybe you selected steam, or used the added heat option, and the steam and heated dry sanitized them.
It seems spray arm design changes often. Is it a gimmick? I mean every dishwasher is tested before being released to the market for cleanability.
My model, and nearly every other GE model said it had "dedicated" flatware jets.
Really? Where? The jets at the tips of the center was arm have always been there.
They are the main push for the arm, and also spray the top edges of large plates.
In order to have dedicated flatware jets, they would have to put them in the side of the tub facing the flatware basket. "watch for that feature in the next generation"

Post# 900546 , Reply# 244   9/26/2016 at 14:52 (301 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
There's really only one aspect of spray arm design that would be "a gimmick" and that is in the visuals.
GE or WP didn't have to have separate blue molded jet nozzles, but they did for visuals.
I'd venture to guess that actual spray pattern is an engineered layout.
And as with anything, there are many many multiple ways to skin a cat. Hence why every brand has a varying spray pattern/scheme. Yet they all essentially get the job done.

As for more jets with less pressure, that's counter-intuitive, since you'd need more volume to go through the extra jets, and pressure would drop.
However, by alternating the arms, they can have a smaller pump, add more jets and still keep pressure quite high.
The upper rack will always have a bit of a pressure drop due to head losses climbing to the upper rack. The volumes of the conduit and the x-middle arm are kept quite narrow to minimize the loss of excess volume. But there will always be a bit of a loss. Which yes, the S-arm seems to handle better!
And yes! I'm interested to see what changes occur if I block off the bottle jets that run all the time. I imagine it'll be a decent pressure increase.

I'm not really sure what "blue" wash arm you're talking about in your GE, Vacerator. All of GE's machines have had a curvy arm in various shades of light and dark grey the past decade or so.
That design is of their past, with fewer holes, but larger openings to create a 25deg. fanned out spray pattern. It works quite well, since they used it for at least 30 years. And then in the last few years of the old "Infiniclean" GE system with all levels running at once, they reduced the jet sizes and added a few extra on the bottom to eek out some water savings before the new [current] manual filter platform was ready.

Post# 900547 , Reply# 245   9/26/2016 at 14:58 (301 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Dedicated Silverware Jets

johnb300m's profile picture
Oh, about the "silverware" jets.
You're right, they're the same jets that propel the middle arm.
BUT, what I've noticed in GE's latest machines is that they've targeted these drive jets to spray at varied levels to better cover the flatware.
Are they "100%" dedicated to flatware? No.....they drive the arm.
But so what? They scrub the silverware very very well.

Andrew's WP has a nifty targeted silverware spray bar.
And GE just came out with a Profile model that has a whole manifold full of jets that is right underneath the silverware baskets....IN addition, to the existing jets on the middle wash arm.

Yes it's marketing jargon. But the job still gets done.

Post# 900557 , Reply# 246   9/26/2016 at 17:34 (301 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
My GE Profile is from 2011

without a door handle. Plastic tub. The spray arms are a deep blue, not grey.

Post# 900850 , Reply# 247   9/28/2016 at 14:22 (299 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
like this?

  View Full Size
Post# 900859 , Reply# 248   9/28/2016 at 15:15 (299 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Yes John,

thats it!
I have read that not pre rinsing dishes or not removing stickers from the bottom of mugs, etc. can clog and gum up the filters and even the pump resulting in poor washing effectiveness, and even scaling. Particles of food can clog spray jets.
I rinse, and besides, we don't run it but mainly every other day. A dishwasher to me is a sanitizer more so than a scrubber.
I know most will disagree, but it's a bit of a job to take apart and clean everything.

Post# 900866 , Reply# 249   9/28/2016 at 15:31 (299 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Blue spray arm

logixx's profile picture
Could have also been this one...

  View Full Size
Post# 900875 , Reply# 250   9/28/2016 at 16:41 (299 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Stickers will gum up ANY machine.
But as long as you scrape the piles of food off of dishware, there should be no reason to rinse anything.

And I'm sure we're getting into the weeds, but I'd call that spray arm 'charcoal grey' haha.

That arm is HUGE. And Blue!
When on earth did GE spend money on that?!
Never seen it before.

Post# 900896 , Reply# 251   9/28/2016 at 18:49 (299 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
It's from 2009

logixx's profile picture
Post# 900907 , Reply# 252   9/28/2016 at 19:23 (299 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Mine is that color blue,

but I've never seen that one either. Must have been a top of the line then with smart dispense. They were tweaking their models and such back then. Like some had a very thin fill tube from the water valve, but mine doesn't.
The handle on my flatware basket broke, but it really isn't much of a bother to lift it our from both ends to the counter top. My wares drawer is just to the right.

Post# 934951 , Reply# 253   4/27/2017 at 15:25 by johnb300m (Chicago)        
A special treat!

johnb300m's profile picture
Hey kiddos!
A teaser.
I got my hands on a reasonably priced Clear Service door!
Of course I did a load with the full glory revealed.
Here's some initial pics.
Once I process and render the video, I'll post that as well.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 5         View Full Size
Post# 935128 , Reply# 254   4/28/2017 at 10:01 by chetlaham (United States)        
To say you made my day

Would be an understatement! :) Can't wait for that video. I owe you many favors now, thats for sure.

Post# 935345 , Reply# 255   4/29/2017 at 19:38 by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Through the Clear Door

johnb300m's profile picture
Here it is kiddos!
Clear service door, running an empty Light wash with lower rack removed for visibility.

Some explanation of operations:
- You'll notice it starts off with a waterfall fill with the side wall jets that only operate during fill periods.
- The first and second fills are dumped pretty quick as part of GE's Auto Hot Start to purge the lines of cold water and get the machine filling with 90F water minimum. It'll do that up to 3 times if the line water is super cold.
- 3rd segment is the main wash, and it's not audible, but the heater is on to heat that water to 125F on Light wash.
- Rack sequence is Lower Main, Upper, Lower Reverse, Upper, back to Lower Main. Which repeats through the main wash.
- If you've been following this thread you'll know that the corners of the upper rack on the GE Profile machines with the X-arms are kinda weak. I acquired a standard GE S-arm for the upper rack,and I installed that back in toward the end of the video for comparisons.

I have a load of dishes done with the clear door as well.
I'm still processing that video, soon to come.



Post# 935421 , Reply# 256   4/30/2017 at 04:36 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

pretty impressive water action!

Post# 935454 , Reply# 257   4/30/2017 at 09:12 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Not too shabby for a modern machine that just pees on dishes.
There's a surpriseing amount of water being thrown around.

Post# 935468 , Reply# 258   4/30/2017 at 10:39 by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
Great job John! Thanks for sharing! :-)

Post# 935591 , Reply# 259   4/30/2017 at 22:11 by Murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

murando531's profile picture
This.... is absolutely gorgeous! The lighting and everything is excellent. I've watched it through twice now mesmerized because it looks like a water feature in a fancy hotel fountain. This is excellent work! :D

And I have to say, I still think the S-arm looks much more effective at throwing water in the corners and against the ceiling of the tank. It seems to create more splash effect when hitting the top. I am surprised at how fast both arms turn. It's definitely odd hearing a faster rhythm of jets going by the door than the 30-35 rpm rotation in most machines.

I'm still hella jealous that you're able to get a clear service door. I still can't find even a hint of a part number available for any WP/KitchenAid/Maytag. Even Kenmore. I'm VERY tempted to try ordering the GE door and see if it will fit at all or if it can be slightly modified. Surely the dimensions of the door opening aren't that drastically different, especially since GE now has seals in tank rather than the edge of the actual door.

Post# 935618 , Reply# 260   5/1/2017 at 03:19 by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Jealous here as well. I've looked at the clear door for Bosch dishwashers and it was like 100 Euros. No...

Yes, it really lookes like a fountain in there with the jets whirling around. Too bad the side jets only come on during the fill cycle - but I had already read that in the service manual. Looking forward to more videos.

Post# 935661 , Reply# 261   5/1/2017 at 09:51 by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Very nice

panthera's profile picture

I think the arm switch out was a good idea.

I find it interesting that GE would be the company to invest so much thought in better wash arm design - in the late '70s (their work on the multi-orbital) and now.

Post# 935670 , Reply# 262   5/1/2017 at 11:54 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Thank you!
I feel I need to work on the light a bit, with the hot spot in the back.
Regardless, it came out nice!
I think you're all right about the standard S-arm. It's water passages are larger, so I'm wondering if it's seeing less of a pressure loss, vs. the X-arm with has much narrower passages, which may restrict flow.
The S-arm did seem to throw water more forcefully in the corners for sure.
I do however like how the X-arm rotates a little slower for more exposure. But with the faster/increased pressure from the S-arm, maybe it's all moot.
I'm seeming to get similar performance from either arm, now that I'm using better detergent in tandem with the soft water as opposed to almost a year ago.

These clear doors are expensive! The GE door is over $100 as well. However if you find one on a sales website, give it a shot. I got mine for $50 and free shipping. And I saw another one for $30.
Maybe the GE will fit other machines!
It's got extra clearance for bull-nose racks, so there's a good chance.
We need someone to experiment.

It's my recollection as well, that GE seems to do lots of wash arm experimentation. With these x-arms, reversing arms, orbital arms and whirlybirds.
And now with this clean sweep arm, such as in post #68422, that is geared and juts out c to wash upper rack corners.
Apparently, the review is less than stellar on that machine :/

I have more planned, my fervent appliance kids!

Post# 935792 , Reply# 263   5/2/2017 at 05:37 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

Thanks so much for the awesome video, John! Interesting to see what goes on inside my GE.  I had no idea the side jets were for fill only.  Also very surprised that water from a couple of jets in the bottom arm reaches the top of the tub in an empty machine.

Post# 935798 , Reply# 264   5/2/2017 at 06:44 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Very Nice Demonstration

combo52's profile picture

It is always fun to see what goes on inside a DW.


I have had one of these DWs in my home for nearly two years now and while it basically produces clean dishes it is on the way out of my kitchen.


The racks are the worst I have ever seen in a DW, nothing stays put in the top rack, and things fall through the lower rack, they are too dark in color and very irregular in configuration which makes loading this machine a constant puzzle.


The cleaning ability in the corners of the top rack with the X arm is terrible.


The overall cleaning looks good, BUT the final rinse water is cloudy and oily and the machine often develops a bad stale odor if you don't leave the door open.


I could learn to live with this DW if it wasn't for the fact the 1987 WP does so much better job, there is just no comparison when you are unloading both machines, both machines have the same water supply and detergents used in them.


I am going to put in another WP in place of the GE, if anyone wants this GE speak up or I am just going to turn it into a pile of spare parts I will not sell it to a customer.


PS This GE DW was given to me by an appliance distributor because they could not get the door to close properly. We fixed the closure but it does leak a little water under the door once in a while, I have not bothered to try fixing it because I knew after a few months I would not keep this DW.


The front of this DW is black in color.

Post# 935841 , Reply# 265   5/2/2017 at 12:52 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Thanks John!

If I'm honest, there ARE some issues with this platform, which you touched upon.

- The top rack layout is less than desirable, however I've quickly gotten used to the pattern. There's the section where the tines fold down on the left, and the folding clips are terribly placed, where they don't allow half the glasses to sit steady in the rack, so they will roll around, fall over etc.

- The top rack roller glides seem very smooth to me. However they do make a (faint) scraping noise as they move. It's not offensive to me at all, but to some I guess it is. I have noticed, depending on the load, the rollers will gunk up with sediment, and become stiff. Which works it's way out after a wash or two.

- The bottom rack holds a ton of dishes, but it's not as flexible as it looks sometimes.

- The corners are a weak spot for sure, and the standard arm does alleviate it as demonstrated upthread.

- With certain loads, there will be grit in the tops of cups, but it's very fine silt. Still annoying.

- The filter cup is not nearly as good at staying clean as WP's filter systems today. I need to rinse mine every 2-4 weeks. But it's not been a personal bother thus far.

However I have not had any of the greasy last-rinse water issues, or odor that you proclaim. My machine always smells fresh.
The cup or so of water that remains in the sump is sometimes a little cloudy from the remnants of rinse aid, but it's never oily or stinky.

Thus far I am enjoying the machine.
And I have become very attached to the top level bottle jets!
However, I have made a pact that if it requires a repair of over $200, or more than $200 within two years.....I will sell it for parts....and join the wonderful world of Whirlpool.
As their new dishwashers have seriously impressed me as of late.

Post# 935842 , Reply# 266   5/2/2017 at 12:54 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Yeah Frig!
I was happily surprised as well.
Most of the jets on the lower spray are angled, so they never get to the ceiling. But the few that go straight up do indeed spray with enough force to definitely pelt the ceiling real good.

The upper zone is definitely more gentle, yet not weak in any sense either. And that standard mid arm does seem to throw more forcefully.

Post# 935898 , Reply# 267   5/2/2017 at 19:19 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I have no complaints about my GE's cleaning ability, but I agree with both Johns that the racks are a weak point. The tine indents and stays are flimsy. I'm the one who is bugged by the cheap, scraping sound the glides make when moving the upper rack in or out. I find the interior rather tight---space-wise---compared to the TOL LG it replaced. It is wonderfully quiet.

Mine is here for the full span of its natural life. After that: KitchenAid.

Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      

Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In

New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.

Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy