Thread Number: 64622  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
GE washer rinse cycle
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Post# 873033   3/17/2016 at 16:05 (2,933 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Not my video, but I was wonder if this is normal for new washers? It looks almost like a defect but then again I guess this is how all new topload washer rinse to meet energy requirements?











The Whirlpool version that Ive seen do a series of spin sprays but Ive never seen a half way fill and then 15 second agitate.





Post# 873036 , Reply# 1   3/17/2016 at 16:18 (2,933 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Well, I answered my own question...

chetlaham's profile picture
Looks like they use 2 pressure switches:










Post# 873040 , Reply# 2   3/17/2016 at 16:42 (2,933 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture
That's just horrible.

I couldn't imagine a person with sensitive skin and not knowing about this machine's shoddy Rinsing.

Their skin would fall off. Well, you know what I mean.

Their dermatologist would be in heaven.


Post# 873042 , Reply# 3   3/17/2016 at 16:48 (2,933 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
That's because she bought the cheap a$$ Hotpoint that doesn't have the deep rinse feature or even a fabric softener dispenser. I have no sympathy for people that don't do research before they buy something. Even worse when they generalize and say don't buy a GE washer. Like all of them are the same. Stupid. Ignorant, uninformed people should not be posting videos giving advice.

I used this type of rinse on my GE Hydrowave and it rinsed just fine. I used FS most times so I used the PowerRinse feature more often, however.


Post# 873088 , Reply# 4   3/17/2016 at 21:58 (2,933 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Research/Horrible

chetlaham's profile picture
I agree people need to research, but at the same time I dont think consumers having 50 years of trust would imagine such a awful thing creeping up on them. Many big appliance stores don't even have the manuals in the tub to look at. Being what looks like a classic top load with a fill selector and no hint of "energy star" labeling on it, I would probably fall for the same trick. Which is why I always try to check the tech sheet out before buying anything, but finding tech sheets for new appliances is often like trying to find classified missile defense documents. Unless you are a certified service tech for Whirlpool or GE forget about it. Frigidaire however does have their tech sheets online which has been a blessing.


As for the method GE uses it is absolutely horrible (and exceptionally stupid) to say the least. Id guess they use 15 seconds of agitation probably to avoid damaging clothes from the fast strokes known in post filter flo washer, but at the same time roll over or complete immersion of individual fabrics (at least once) does not take place leaving items at the top virtually unrinsed. Personally, GE would have had happier customers if the machine did a series of spin sprays which would give far better coverage along with superior rinsing. If anything that would have cheapened the cost of the machine a bit eliminating the extra pressure switch and timer contacts.

If I had the task of designing this washer Id have simply put a curve in the fill flume to fan water toward the tub and placed about 6 20 second sub-interval spray rinses starting at the beginning of spin running the motor on slow seed (if applicable) for the first 5 sub intervals and then ramping up to high speed. Id also add either a "bulky specials" cycle or a separate "deep rinse and spin only" cycle in between the existing allowing users to either second rinse or avoid spin spraying only. Being that a good spin spray is effective in general (look at the older Maytags) low soil clothes and folks using less detergent would not even notice, and when they do, a classic deep rinse would be right on the dial. Had GE done that here, this person might not have even noticed the grit or simply been told by GE "hit it with a second rinse as provided on the dial"

Why oh why do large corporations make things more complicated, expensive and difficult while bruising their own reputation is well beyond me?

Personally I think GE selling their appliance business is no accident. Ive seen the work they do and at time they do give themselves a black eye like they did with this washer. Yes the are following government regulations, but there is a better way to make the most of that limited water as Speed Queen has done on their newer machines.



Post# 873107 , Reply# 5   3/18/2016 at 06:44 (2,932 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
OLD MACHINE

mrb627's profile picture
I think this is an older machine. Appears to have a transmission and not a hydrowave. Probably bought second hand. Additionally, the lint problem is more likely a sorting issue and not a fault of the machine. And for God's sake, change the battery in you GD smoke detector. Annoying!

Malcolm


Post# 873168 , Reply# 6   3/18/2016 at 12:00 (2,932 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
My mom has this machine now, though hers is an actual GE brand. Same style and everything though. It was bought by my Mamaw and Papaw before they passed away, while Mamaw was sick with Hospice care and Papaw wasn't doing much better. The trusty RimFlo finally kicked the bucket, and he wasn't in the shape anymore to try and fix it, so as they did with other appliances, Mamaw called Fredrickson's and said literally "bring us a washer, cheapest you got", and this was the result. Not a good thing considering we needed a machine that could handle soiled bed sheets and such on a daily basis. I called and begged them to let us upgrade to a model that actually had a rinse option but they basically said oh well, and didn't seem to give a damn that we had sick people to wash for.

Now that my mom has been living there after they passed in '12, I guess she's still running two cycles per load, one to wash and another to rinse. I tried looking into the parts diagram and couldn't see any additional pressure sensor. I think it's literally timed to fill for a minute or so and then agitate for fifteen seconds. You either have to wash very small loads, or run two separate cycles. It's a mess. I'm sure results would be even worse for people with poor water pressure.


Post# 873196 , Reply# 7   3/18/2016 at 16:22 (2,932 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Timed fill

chetlaham's profile picture
If so they had no reason to not implement a spin spray sequence.

Post# 873473 , Reply# 8   3/20/2016 at 11:15 (2,930 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
stupid consumers

Consumers who say that all GE washers are bad are stupid, stupid and stupid! Clearly they've never owned a filter-flo or were abusing the machine! Not all GE washers are bad!

Post# 873474 , Reply# 9   3/20/2016 at 11:17 (2,930 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
higher end GE models

She should've picked the higher end model GE's!

Post# 873601 , Reply# 10   3/21/2016 at 04:38 (2,930 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

GELaundry, I think you are missing the point.

Last time I checked, buying a new washer is a bit of an investment. We're not talking about buying a toaster here.

Even when buying the lower end models, they should still be capable of rinsing properly, at least having the option of a proper deep rinse or being able to spray rinse by default.

Go to your local appliance shop and price out the lower end machines. You'll find that not everyone can afford to buy a higher end model that has features like it should. Can you afford the base models right now? If so, what would you buy?

In saying that, The Filter Flo platform is nearly 22 years old now since they discontinued it, so not everyone has the luxury of being able to buy a used 22 year old washer that is in good shape. Even still, it is a technologically obsolete platform and design. A '57 Chevy looks great, but it is still a death trap and makes for a poor daily driver.

We all know that GE has their decent models which do the job and they've capitulated to the market by offering deep water washes instead of forcing the HE washing style on everyone. So we have to give them credit for trying. Alliance is eating their lunch because of government regulation.

As much as I hate to say it, the GE that we all knew and loved is now dead and has been dead for a while now. They're owned by the Chinese now and there's nothing we can do about it. So, the reality is that we should move on, stop focusing on things we can't fix and go to the competition, who better understands what the consumers want and what makes for a decent machine.


Post# 873603 , Reply# 11   3/21/2016 at 06:23 (2,930 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Good points, but people ARE stupid. Believe me, I work for an airline. I see stupid people all day long! lmao.

I don't really understand GE's idea behind this BOL machine...but the technology certainly isn't up to date. Whirlpool updated their machines, even after just recently updating them. So maybe there's a new version coming for this Hotpoint, who knows.

The Haier deal isn't finalized or approved yet by the DOJ. I suspect it will go through however.

Filter Flo's while popular in their day, aren't as easy to find on the used market as the Whirlpool, or even Maytag machines. They certainly do their job and I love mine but it's not without faults. Jerome just likes the machine and that's great...but reality is even when they were discontinued in the mid 90's, they were very outdated. If I remember correctly, the Hotpoint machines lasted a couple years longer than the GE's...so that goes to show you where Hotpoint is on the priority list of GE. hahaha.


Post# 873682 , Reply# 12   3/21/2016 at 14:08 (2,929 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
I've seen that video...

And needless to say, this lady says that we should never buy GE washers because they don't rinse. Like all GE's don't rinse your clothes! What I'm saying is that should've picked the GE washer with at least a power rinse and/or fabric softener then she would've been satisfied! I have a GE post filter-flo which is 16 years old and I have no problems. Not all post filter-flos are bad. I can't believe she said that all GE's are bad! She should've restarted the cycle and been done with it!

Post# 873690 , Reply# 13   3/21/2016 at 15:54 (2,929 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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It's the same thing as saying "I'M NEVER FLYING X-AIRLINE AGAIN!"
Or..."THAT SALES AGENT WAS SO RUDE, I'M NEVER SHOPPING AT BEST BUY EVER AGAIN!!!!"

It's all emotional.
In fact, it's the same emotional knee-jerk you're having with someone dissing GE appliances.
They're really nothing special anymore.
And that's a former GE fanboy saying that.


Post# 873721 , Reply# 14   3/21/2016 at 19:56 (2,929 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
qualin,

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You wrote:

In saying that, The Filter Flo platform is nearly 22 years old now since they discontinued it, so not everyone has the luxury of being able to buy a used 22 year old washer that is in good shape. Even still, it is a technologically obsolete platform and design....

I would have to disagree with you that this design is 'technologically obsolete'. No other washer filters as well. No modern washer rinses as well. Short of a washer which heats, I can't think of a single modern washer (SpeedQueen TL?) which cleans as well.

 

How so obsolete? Why would I want a piece of trash which has to be cleaned regularly because it can't even keep itself clean, far less my clothes? That's technologically superior exactly how?

Oh, and how many of these mold incubators will be around in 22 years?

 

Hmm, on reflection, that was a bit harsh, sorry. I like clean clothes and just don't see HE washers delivering them.




This post was last edited 03/21/2016 at 21:46
Post# 873746 , Reply# 15   3/21/2016 at 22:31 (2,929 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
I don't blame you.

That's why I'm not to keen on HE washers, let alone GE's. I'd rather have a GE or any other washer that is fully filled, aggressively agitated, and will deliver me truly rinsed clothes. I want completely clean clothes, not partially or halfway. I want it all the way done.

Post# 873747 , Reply# 16   3/21/2016 at 22:32 (2,929 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
correction

I'm not too keen on HE GE's.

Post# 873750 , Reply# 17   3/21/2016 at 22:41 (2,929 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
@panthera

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I agree. New HE TOLs will never be good performers. Personally the two disc design by Maytag was the right step forward over the impellers. All it needed was the design tweaked and it would have won over modern impellers.

Post# 873785 , Reply# 18   3/22/2016 at 04:32 (2,929 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Panthera, I thought I should justify my remarks more closely..

> No other washer filters as well. No modern washer rinses as well.

The Filter-Flo was designed at a time when people line dried their clothing, not everyone had a clothes dryer, so lint filtering was an absolute must. Since most everyone today uses a clothes dryer and a lot of neighborhoods actually prohibit line drying, the need to filter the wash water was made obsolete by the lint filter in a dryer.

I also have to disagree about the rinsing part. We could argue that any Solid Tub Speed Queen washer does just as good a job as rinsing as a Filter-Flo, but we all know that solid tub designs were phased out by the late 1970's, With Speed Queen being the lone hold out.

> I can't think of a single modern washer (SpeedQueen TL?) which cleans as well.

I have a 2011 vintage Huebsch (Canadian Speed Queen) which does a much better job cleaning my clothing than my old 2004 GE Top loader ever did.

I honestly think it would be an interesting discussion to have, putting a Filter-Flo to the test against a modern SQ Top loader.

> How so obsolete?

The Filter-Flo machines used an Aircraft Cable Type of suspension, which meant that they tended to walk around the room if the load was unbalanced. GE fixed this problem when they revised their suspension system with a new design.

Also, Filter-Flos were based upon a solid tub design originally. As a result, when they switched over to using a perforated tub, there was a large gap between the inner and outer tubs, resulting in a massive amount of wasted water.

When Whirlpool came out with their first Microprocessor controlled washing machine in 1978, GE was still using mechanical timers. They didn't even start making microprocessor controlled washers until the latter 1990's.

So, when I say it was outdated, it was outdated in comparison to everyone else, who was manufacturing washers which didn't waste as much water, used microprocessor control and didn't need a filter pan because it wasn't needed anymore. That's the rationale for my comment.

> Why would I want a piece of trash which has to be cleaned regularly because it can't even keep itself clean, far less my clothes? That's technologically superior exactly how?

Well, actually it isn't. In fact, those machines, even though they do use more technology, are inferior machines because they just don't clean as well. So, no, you wouldn't want them.

But, take into account my 2011 Huebsch. It is Microprocessor controlled and uses nearly half as much water as my older 2004 GE top loader did. It will probably outlast me and it self cleans itself because it is all Stainless Steel, there's no plastic.

> Oh, and how many of these mold incubators will be around in 22 years?

Again, it comes down to the design of the machine. Just because something is newer doesn't mean that it is better. Even so, there have been much better designs released in the last few decades that eclipse the efficiency of those older designs.

> I like clean clothes and just don't see HE washers delivering them.

Actually, I agree with you on one point.. I absolutely dislike HE washing in anything that is a top loader. HE washing in a front loader is much better and that's what they were designed for. I don't believe that there is such a thing as a decent top loading HE machine, the design just doesn't work all that well.

So yes, I would rather have an "obsolete" Filter Flo over a top loading HE washer any day of the week because even if it does use more water, it'll at least get my clothes considerably cleaner.


Post# 873786 , Reply# 19   3/22/2016 at 04:43 (2,929 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

GELaundry4ever,

Look, this isn't a personal attack, but you need to read my responses.

Ignoring my posts and then just reiterating what you said earlier in the post doesn't make you right. You didn't read a single word I wrote, did you?

You tend to do this a lot and honestly I find it really annoying, because I might as well not even respond, since you didn't even acknowledge my points or answer my questions. You've ignored my responses numerous times and I really don't appreciate it.

So, let me put it into clearer terms for you. Lets say that you had between $300-$400 to spend on a machine and you couldn't afford anything more. What would you buy other than what the woman in the video bought?


Post# 873797 , Reply# 20   3/22/2016 at 06:17 (2,929 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

joeypete's profile picture
I think it's more people don't respond or ignore things they don't want to hear or believe. Case in point on HE TL washers. Despite how many posts and videos of people here (including myself) that have used them daily showing that they ARE excellent performers and clean just as well as ANY washer out there?? People still say they don't clean! Talk about frustrating.

I agree FL's are the best cleaning machines but I would pit my Kenmore 28102 against any regular top loader, including a new Speed Queen. It would clean as well if not better. Period.


Post# 873818 , Reply# 21   3/22/2016 at 07:58 (2,928 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Once on a vacation in the States we`ve had a hideous modern Whirlpool that would only fill up half way in the rinse cycle but at least it incorporated a spin after the wash and a spray during the final spin IIRC. As if clothes wouldn`t get enough beating in these even with a full tub of water.
Also got to know a GE Hydrowave and found it pretty good performing for a modern toploader, of course no compare to a classic Filterflo, but the one in the video is beyond ridiculous.
I wonder if it just skiped the spin after the wash because the the lid was open or is it really that bad ?


Post# 873823 , Reply# 22   3/22/2016 at 08:52 (2,928 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
qualin,

panthera's profile picture

That makes sense, thanks for the elaboration.

Remember, please - I'm the guy who still used Kochwäsche back home in Germany in the 2000s.

I also live with dogs, cats and a partner whose profession requires him to be very properly and cleanly dressed.

You'll find that kennel owners frequently keep GE Filterflos running to this day because, for some of us, a filter is still needed - and nothing does it as well. That's optimum technology: The simplest solution with the least to go wrong.

 

Microprocessors are useful. I've a degree in IT, so repairing the poor wee bairn and her board in our GSD Twenty-Eight Hundred was the easy part. For me.

There is no question that a good logic control can make a very good machine outstanding.

Unfortunately, there is also no question that a manufacturer can use logic control to make a marginal machine adequate - which is the case with the TL trash on the US market right now (I'm excluding the specialty stuff, like that H-Axis washer from Nebraska). 

 

No sane person can argue the flaws of the Filterflo suspension or the unnecessarily sized outer tub. Both should have been fixed, at the very latest, when the switch from solid tub was made.

 

In the end, I guess it's a matter of priorities. I like the filtering, I do prefer line-drying (Wyoming, wind) and I have absolutely zero patience for the nonsense that 'I' am damaging the environment. More water is used in one well in one day for fracking than I'll use in my entire life. Our '74 Sedan deVille may have a drinking problem, and the '89GTA (with the Corvette motor) matches her gulp for gulp.

Life's too short for me to give up clean clothes and fun cars when I see the harm done by industry with official government sanction.

 


Post# 873834 , Reply# 23   3/22/2016 at 11:33 (2,928 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
resources

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I am so sick of hearing this argument.

YES, there's fracking. YES, it wastes water. YES, farmers are wasting water too.
NO it does not give you permission to waste all the water YOU want because someone else out there is acting worse and hasn't been stopped yet.

Trucks and factories are by FAR the worst air polluters out there. Way moreso than personal cars.
Does that mean we should all rip off our catalytic converters and dance in the acid rain?
One house wasting water with an overflow rinse washer and pumping pounds of phosphate down the drain isn't going to do much damage.
But it's the collective impact of thousands of neighborhoods acting the same way that has the largest negative impact.

Everyone is still free enough to buy old resource hogging machines and pay through the nose on their utility bills to their heart's content.
But if they want to lessen their impact on said resources and save a little coin every month, there are actually some good, modern machines out there today that can help with that.

To stay on topic, the FilterFlos were great machines in their own right..........20 years ago.
But they are obsolete.
My parents' 1982 Maytag is OBSOLETE. But it's still chugging along.
When it dies, they can finally look at getting a Maxima front loader like I have, that will use a fraction of the water and get clothes just as clean or cleaner!


I too am ALL EARS.
What would you do, Mr. GELaundry?
You NEED a washer before the week is out.
You ONLY have $400 in your pocket. There are NO FilterFlos within a 200 mile radius of you on Craigslist.
WHAT. DO. YOU. DO?


Post# 873846 , Reply# 24   3/22/2016 at 12:43 (2,928 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
john,

panthera's profile picture

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I don't smoke.

I don't drink.

I've been a vegetarian for nearly 40 years now.

I feel firmly about all three. I equally firmly refuse to impose any of the three upon anyone else and I DESPISE people who share my lifestyle choices who do.

I remember when we first introduced Recycling in Munich. Now, the stuff we sorted went straight into the trash for years and years and years - the point was to educate us (Erziehung), not to actually improve things.

That's how I feel about these stupid HE washers which are worthless. Ditto the near-waterless dishwashers which require prescrubbing, take hours and hours and leave the dishes exposed to mold and microbes because they are filthy.

I'll run my '74 Sedan deVille, my '89 GTA (with the Corvette motor), my thumper (in PANK!) and my GE Filterflo. I'll wash my dishes (no prerinsing/-scrubbing) in my GSD2800 or 1200 and know they'll be clean and sanitary.

Our water is set to 145F. Our house is kept at 70F.

Our 1967 Custom Deluxe keeps dairy at 33F, meat (my partner eats meat) at 32F and the rest at 35F, freezer at -10F. I like it that way. Don't like it? Fine. Don't do it.

But to pretend a washer which actually cleans clothes is 'obsolete' is illogical. Oh, and the argument against STTP and TSP is not driven by science, so please abandon it. It's incorrect. A few teaspoons of TSP or a dash of STTP and everything is clean.


Post# 873851 , Reply# 25   3/22/2016 at 13:45 (2,928 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Opinion vs Facts

Opinion is opinion, fact is fact.

The year 2000 HP desctop PC in our storage room still works and runs WinXP. So, it is not obsolete, or is it?

I don't know where you get your information from about phosphates, but our town invested ~2 million € (if I remember correctly) in an water treatment system, specificly to improve the water purity, one of the concerns being phosphates.

We have a "near water-less" DW, and guess what: No mold, no smell, and I'm getting just as sick as I did when I was a child and our DW used twice the water. And though cycle times are extending, most DW today have pretty good measures to take just the time they need (take the 1h cycle by WP, or pretty much any sensor cycle).

Munich still recycles. Just as any other part of Germany I've been to.

Our water heater is set to ~135°F (58°C, to be exact), and our house has a cosy 23-24°C during winter, but our new heating system saves about 15% oil.

2 years back we had to exchange our 30 year old freezer. The new freezer still runs as cool as the old one (-18°C), yet it uses half the energy, maybe even less.



Of corse, you do what you want. And we don't want to change your opinion. Your opinion is that all the things you named appeal to you. And so do they to us.

But saying that they are bad because whatever IS WRONG. They work. Saying that STPP is not at least a strain to water treatment IS WRONG. Saying they take hours and don't clean IS WRONG.

Your opinion: You like them. We are totaly fine with that and agree.
Your facts: They are wrong. And we disagree.


Post# 873854 , Reply# 26   3/22/2016 at 14:28 (2,928 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
henene4

panthera's profile picture

Of course we recycle more effectively in Germany today - and for the last 20 years I lived at home in Munich, I gladly recycled. But that doesn't change the fact that in the early days, it was purely Erziehung, not real.

As to phosphates - Schedule V and better treatment plants have been online for decades. The trace amount of non-organically available phosphates my washer/dishwasher send to the waste treatment facility are as nothing compared to the phosphates my body eliminates every day.

Not a strain, at all.

Now, being German - not German-American, and having lived in both countries, I have no trouble agreeing with you on our highly-efficient appliances in Germany. They are not, however, the plastic fantastic trash sold on the American market. The cheapest Gorenje is of better quality than the best Whirlpool. You're talking about machines which wash at 40C, the American trash sold as 'HE' doesn't even make it to 24C. That's ideal for breeding microbes and not for cleaning. Add to that the hard-water and lack of treatment (keine Enthärtungsanlagen in den Geschirrspülern) and dishwasher detergents which, except for the very most expensive, are on a par with the junk we had from Ecover back in the early 1990s and it just is worthless.

 

I grew up in an era in which I was the only SPD Mitglied in my Bezirk who didn't chain smoke. I grew up in an era in which we 'saved' water while the Isar flooded her banks seven times a spring and twice in August just to remind us of what she had in store for us in November. There's a fine line between being reasonable and turning into an Ökofreak.

Of course we disagree on this, but please don't compare our really high technology HE appliances to the trash sold on the US market.


Post# 873865 , Reply# 27   3/22/2016 at 15:03 (2,928 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Germany indeed does have good water treatment. But nobody in Germany adds phosphates to their detergents. The US has AFAIK lower water treatment standards. And higher phosphate contents in their detergents strate away.

You are right that DWs in the US lack water softners. And DWs are one thing I admit the US is inferior in terms of technology, but even over here some people manage to abuse machines to the point of absolute disgust.

And on the topic of HE washers:
We have people here that can quote on quote tell you that HE washers can wash at temperatures far beyond 24C. Because they owwn them.
And I don't know which machines you come about here in Germany, but there have been 1-1 copys of US designs sold here. Alex (logixx) owns one. And he never complained about quality.


Post# 873886 , Reply# 28   3/22/2016 at 15:49 (2,928 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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He was talking about HE washers in America with American programming. And it's true, many to most curent HE washers in the US consider 25°C to be a warm wash and around 40°C to be hot.. and then about 70°C on Sanitize. I would have a really hard time to choose a washer in the US now if I had to.

The current Whirlpool Duet, for example, skips the spin between the 1st and 2nd rinse on Normal... presumably to either save (balancing) time and/or water. Either way - yuck.


Post# 873897 , Reply# 29   3/22/2016 at 16:14 (2,928 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
You have your opinions and that's fine, as henene has said multiple times.

But to keep spewing on that American washers and dishwashers cannot run and heat past 24c (74f) is komplette pferd scheiße!

My dishwasher, my parents' dishwasher, my aunts' dishwasher ALL on their lightest settings will heat the main wash and last rinse to at least 115f (46c).
And for the super duper cheap dishwashers that don't heat their water, they still run on whatever temperature is from the hot water heater.
And Americans LOVE their HOTTTT showers. Many water heaters are TOO hot, exceeding 50c! That high temperature goes into all their dishwashers and washers.

AGAIN. From my personal experience. My front load washer has a built in heater to KEEP the hot water washes at a hot temperature.
I KNOW. I've checked by opening the door. The clothes are HOT.

None of my appliances are moldy. NONE of them smell. I leave the washer door open to dry. It dries. No mold ever.

American water treatment plants hardly ever remove phosphates from effluent.
Here's some light reading for ya.
If you choose to deny science....like a redneck American, well then nobody can help ya.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutrophica...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_tri...

While STPP use is generally not seen to cause problematic algae blooms, it can aggravate eutrophication in waterways. There has not been enough study to find the long term effects.
For now STPP is the SAFER alternative than to TSP.
That does not mean it is benign.

Oh and your hyperbole is sickening. The worst EU dishwasher is far better than a TOL Whirlpool, which you say is cheap plastic crap?
Nonsense. TOL American dishwashers have been stainless steel with durable nylon racks for YEARS already. And they are the market leader for a reason.


Post# 873920 , Reply# 30   3/22/2016 at 17:36 (2,928 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Goodness!

panthera's profile picture

Ok, first of all - the typical US TL HE washer reigns in even 'hot' to a uselessly low temp. It's not hot, it's barely lukewarm. That's just a fact.

Second, this phosphate hysteria is totally unproductive. Oh, and the treatment plant in our location was filtering out phosphates 30 years ago. I haven't rung them this week, but I rather doubt that's changed.

I love our vintage appliances, I love to work on them and restore them. I also love the way they clean. 

My last washer and dishwasher in Germany were top of the line Miele. I know how well they clean. My friends here in the 'States (and yes, I do have some) all have top of the line American HE TL washers and the very best 'Kitchenaide' dishwashers and they're useless trash which have to be cleaned regularly because they can't even clean themselves. Clothes have to be pre-treated, dishes pre-scrubbed.

That's ridiculous. 

Now, technology advances, thank goodness - but in the final analysis, there's no way a TL HE washer is ever going to do as good a job as an HE FL washer or a vintage Filterflo.

It's simply can't.


Post# 873963 , Reply# 31   3/22/2016 at 22:58 (2,928 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Well, guess I just got told.

  View Full Size
Post# 873970 , Reply# 32   3/22/2016 at 23:32 (2,928 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Chetlaham...

I agree with you.

Post# 874022 , Reply# 33   3/23/2016 at 08:26 (2,927 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
John,

panthera's profile picture

I've been dealing with people (especially back home in Germany) who insisted I wouldn't be a vegetarian for long (coming up on the fourth decade in a bit) who told me that smoking tobacco was 'natural' and thus not dangerous and tried to make me feel like I was a wet blanket for not drinking (even though I kept a well stocked bar and wine cellar for friends).

 

It's just one of those things - so many of the things we 'know' to be true are really subjective, not objective. Let's not let our disagreements on American HE TLs and American EcoStar Dishwashers come between us in our enjoyment of vintage appliances.

 

And, yes - I am a very stubborn mule. The defenders of Shrub #43 around here found that out back in the early part of this century. I wish, I genuinely wish I'd been wrong on that idiot and the harm he'd do, though.....


Post# 874030 , Reply# 34   3/23/2016 at 09:21 (2,927 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Worth noting

panthera's profile picture

In all this discussion, I've been referring to HE Top Loading (TL) washers, not front loading.

Hell, I bought my mom a very nice Electrolux FL with heating years ago which has never broken down, heats the water to 45 or 55 or 65 or 75 or 95 and rinses five times. Bought that here in the US. 

But, please - don't try to defend American HE TL washers as paragons of virtue. With the rarest of exceptions - and I noted those (like that H-Axis from Nebraska) they temper the water, even the 'hot' setting down to barely luke warm. Their miserly and very poor rinsing action is incredibly well documented all across the Internet.

 

Oh, a last note: We didn't phase phosphates out of our dishwasher detergents in Germany until a few years ago. That's one reason they worked so very well until, after several years of really poor washing ability, we finally got the current generation of dishwasher detergents which clean quite well.

Sheesh.

 


Post# 874032 , Reply# 35   3/23/2016 at 09:51 (2,927 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
@Panthera

foraloysius's profile picture
A small correction concerning phosphates in European dishwasher detergents. Phosphates will be banned on January 1st 2017. Until then a lot of detergents still contain them like Somat 10

www.rossmannversand.de/produkt/37...

This is the ingredientslist:

Inhaltsstoffe

über 30 % Phosphate, 5-15 % Bleichmittel auf Sauerstoffbasis, Polycarboxylate, nichtionische Tenside, unter 5 % Phosphonate, Enzyme, Duftstoffe

Back to topic. What was it again? lol



Post# 874036 , Reply# 36   3/23/2016 at 10:15 (2,927 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Louis,

panthera's profile picture

Thanks. It was gone from the stuff  was I buying in Munich in 2013, so I thought it was all gone.

As to the topic, I'm not quite sure anymore. I believe I've fallen into a time warp and am surrounded by mid-1980's Greens from the raised pointy finger era.


Post# 874061 , Reply# 37   3/23/2016 at 12:30 (2,927 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
topic...

We were on the GE washer rinse cycle topic.

Post# 874084 , Reply# 38   3/23/2016 at 17:00 (2,927 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I'm not a huge fan of HE TL washers

mark_wpduet's profile picture
but I do like the FL washers. Hey Logixx. I noticed you said the new duets don't spin between the first/ second rinse on "normal" - this is why I would never use normal.

Also remember that our washers are connected to 110V (I think), not 220.

Even still, my Older Duet gets PLENTY HOT on sanitize and my dishwasher gets super hot too and uses plenty of water and it's less than 2 yrs old.


Post# 874095 , Reply# 39   3/23/2016 at 18:12 (2,927 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Yes, it spun after the wash, did the 1st rinse, drained... and filled for the softening rinse. The model was a WFW97HEDC.

Post# 874105 , Reply# 40   3/23/2016 at 18:46 (2,927 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Mark,

panthera's profile picture

You raise a good point - US washers run on 110V.

For decades, European Dishwashers and Washers on the high-end offered the option of running either at 10 or 16 amps (I should say running 'on' those fused circuits) at 220/230/240 Volts or running at 3φ.

Given how widespread 208/220/240 circuits are in laundry rooms in the US, I wonder if we shouldn't make that an option. It would enable real water heating in reasonable time-frames. As Laundress has reminded us many times over the year, you can trade (to some extent) heat for time, water volume for detergent efficacy, agitation for soaking, etc. to achieve the same results. Within limits.

I still can't help but feel all the HE TL problems are insurmountable. If we want to talk about low water and energy use, then TLs in the traditional style just don't come close to good HE FLs. 


Post# 874107 , Reply# 41   3/23/2016 at 18:54 (2,927 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
@ Logixx

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I hope that this only happened in the NORMAL cycle and doesn't necessarily happen in other cycles....

Panthera - I guess if someone was desperate they could unplug the dryer, plug the washer into that outlet, and when the washer is done, plug the dryer back in, for a euro washer of course. I've always wondered why only the dryer here can be 220 and not the washer. But whatever..who knows. It probably is all the years of traditional TL washers.....there may have been no need. Maybe now there is? LOL


Post# 874132 , Reply# 42   3/23/2016 at 21:53 (2,927 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Yes, it was only the Normal cycle that did the 1.5 rinses on its default setting.

As for 240V washers in the US: since dryers can pull up to 5.5 kW of power, I would use that potential for the washer. Since every manufacturer is (once again) talking about smart and connected appliances, I would have the washer communicate with the dryer and delay the start of the drying cycle, until the washer has finished heating and maybe briefly switch the dryer to Air Dry, if the washer needs to reheat. That, or the dryer could run only one element, while the washer heats and add the second one, once heating has finished.


Post# 874139 , Reply# 43   3/23/2016 at 22:51 (2,927 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
logixx

panthera's profile picture

Actually, given that the dryer circuit is usually 30 amps, there shouldn't even be a problem for both to run at the same time.

Of course, the main problem here is not the American housewife - she'd love to have clean clothes like her mother/grandmother did.

It's the stupid government. Worse in a lot of ways than the idiots who threw parties in Erichs Lampenladen....

 


Post# 874145 , Reply# 44   3/24/2016 at 00:18 (2,927 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
I`m still in the dark about the GE in the original post.
So there`s no spin after the wash to save another gallon of water ?


Post# 874158 , Reply# 45   3/24/2016 at 04:56 (2,927 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
The washer can be 240 volts, nothing in the code stops and electrician from bring in an extra 15 or 20amp 240 volt receptacle. However existing installations, and gas dryers, keep 120 volt machines in production.



As for the washer, it has no spin for some odd reason. It is a very, very poorly thought out washer. I am just as surprised as you, if not more. The ropers at least seem to spin before rinsing.


Post# 875550 , Reply# 46   4/4/2016 at 03:31 (2,916 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
How a washer should rinse

chetlaham's profile picture
GE could learn from the experts:







Post# 875552 , Reply# 47   4/4/2016 at 04:22 (2,916 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

You have got to be kidding!!!……That rinse is even worse than the part full rinse! It's nothing more than a spray rinse. Who wants their clothes or bed linens & such full of soap? Not me!

Post# 875553 , Reply# 48   4/4/2016 at 04:24 (2,916 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
IMHO

chetlaham's profile picture
The spray rinse is more effective for regular clothes, however the comforter needs a deep rinse no matter what.

Post# 875554 , Reply# 49   4/4/2016 at 04:39 (2,916 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

I cannot imagine using a washer that simply spray rinses the clothes. That would be completely uneven and many things would never get rinsed. That is also why I bought a front load machine that will at least rinse things properly and up to 3 extra rinses. I have watched it do this and it may not use a lot of water washing or rinsing, but it DOES submerge the clothes and they DO get clean and rinsed, which is much more than I can say for top loaders that spray rinse clothes. It's a shame that the government feels the need to get so involved on conserving water. I think it is fine to suggest what people should do to conserve, but to force manufacturers to make their machines sub standard to do so is just wrong. They are forcing everyone to go to a front loading machine, which is not a bad idea. Much better than a top loader trying to use the same amount of water that a front loader uses, which is impossible.

Post# 875555 , Reply# 50   4/4/2016 at 05:23 (2,916 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Id agree, but good news being that the Heavy Duty and delicate cycle have a deep rinse. The normal eco is simply to fulfill DOE requirements.

Post# 875569 , Reply# 51   4/4/2016 at 08:10 (2,915 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Actually,

panthera's profile picture

a properly set up spray rinse can rinse just as well (if not better) than a normal deep rinse.

The problem is, you'd end up using quite a fair bit more water than the 1/2 teaspoon they throw in now.

This water saving bullshit is just not leading to clean clothes.


Post# 875582 , Reply# 52   4/4/2016 at 10:27 (2,915 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
IIRC a vintage Which? edition posted here on AW found every FL better at rinsing than spray rinsing in a twintub. Even those terrible low end spin-pump Indesits where the pump was driven by the main motor did better.
Makes sense to me because fibers don`t get flexed much in a spray rinse. Just think of tie-dyeing.
On the other hand I think an additional spray in a traditional TL is absolutely beneficial.


Post# 875584 , Reply# 53   4/4/2016 at 10:29 (2,915 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
What a shame!

This is why I will keep my 2000 GE until it breaks or get at least a decent front loader or even a speed queen! The eco police is out of control!

Post# 875586 , Reply# 54   4/4/2016 at 10:35 (2,915 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
My two "vintage" Fisher & Paykel toploaders have a shower-rinse option.  Their spray flume is designed for it.  Saturation showers at 25 RPM and 670 RPM extractions thoroughly soak and flush the load, followed by 1,010 RPM final spin.  It's very effective for rinsing, although not recommended for loads that have particulate debris (sand, sawdust, pet hair).


Post# 1196614 , Reply# 55   1/6/2024 at 19:21 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
GE washer crap

That GE washer is a piece of crap! I hope they get sued into the ground! Now that they're made by Haier, it's only gotten worse!

Post# 1196615 , Reply# 56   1/6/2024 at 19:45 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
laundromat

If I had $400, I'd rather go to the laundromat just so I can have truly clean and dry clothes. I don't trust HE machines. Everything is stated above. Poor cleaning, long cycle times, etc. I don't trust any of them!

Post# 1196645 , Reply# 57   1/7/2024 at 01:01 by chetlaham (United States)        
You know...

chetlaham's profile picture
Look at what works Jerome. There is a reason why commercial, institutional and government are granted so many exceptions to the law. For example:


www.reddit.com/r/Justroll...

www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/ch...


Commercial machines have to respect a business which counts on no nonsense customer satisfaction, while residential simply seeks to secure a transaction through marketing psychology. And government has to work, period, as that is their duty.


Using my Sharp microwave I am finally grasping the reality that machines outside of residential simply work faster, perform their task better, last longer and are made to be repaired.








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