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Thread Number: 66731
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
They Used To Last 50 Years |
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Post# 893934 8/14/2016 at 19:28 (2,804 days old) by chetlaham  (United States) |
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Not sure as the accuracy of this article, but I found it as a nice light read:
recraigslist.com/2015/10/they-use... | ||
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Post# 893945 , Reply# 2 8/14/2016 at 20:34 (2,804 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Consumers
Are to blame, but the manufactures are doing everything they can to make them delusional. As the article says, few people know (or care) that every single brand is owned by a few. People are mislead that low water, no longevity and glitzy garbage is progress. Ok, maybe low water in a front load, but come on. Everything is offset by filling up landfills.
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| Post# 893950 , Reply# 3 8/14/2016 at 20:48 (2,804 days old) by washman (o) | ||
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Agreed Chetlaham Agreed! | ||
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Post# 893951 , Reply# 4 8/14/2016 at 21:01 (2,804 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Decline in quality of white goods has been talked about 
For years...
On the one hand yes, major appliances which by definition are supposed to last at least ten years (if not more), often barely reach that point before breaking down. By that we mean today that a part will fail and the cost of repair equals or is more than it is worth repair. However there is a flip side, the cost of major appliances has declined over the years making them more widely accessible to many. Miele, Whirlpool, and other major manufactures of laundry appliances know fully well how to build things to last; the do so for their commercial line all the time. However the cheapest commercial front loader would likely set you back several thousand (am excluding SQ from this example), where as you can pick up a decent H-axis washer for under $1.5k or even below $800k. Many early makers of appliances such as GM saw where things were going early on IIRC, and got out of that business. Leaving aside new home sales the bulk of appliance purchases are from those seeking to replace an existing unit for whatever reason. If you build things to last say fifty years, that is going to cut into new sales. This isn't the 1950's where many will throw out a perfectly good appliance just because it is a few years old. Ok, some people do but they are a small minority. | ||
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Post# 893952 , Reply# 5 8/14/2016 at 21:04 (2,804 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Yup and thanks :)
Nothing but disinformation:
The noise isnt the issue, the wrinkled clothes arent the issue, the fact they will be shredded to bits while the same money can get you something that will last 5x longer without destroying your clothes is the real issue. Heck for just $400 extra you can get a SQ front load that will use less water than that thing. But people just don't see it or are ever told what happens to be reality. The market is saturated with 10,000 different variants of garbage by the same ruthless monopoly with consumer reports and other propaganda instruments trying to create an atmosphere of diversity and free choice via subversive pros and cons. This cleans a bit better but a bit nosier, this has steam but no buzzer, this has a buzzer and cleans better for only $20 more, so this is truly a winner. | ||
| Post# 893953 , Reply# 6 8/14/2016 at 21:30 (2,804 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
Yea
Combine the energy used to create appliances and the fact they will end up in a landfill in a few years, that would more than offset the supposed environmental friendliness of them. Hopefully any fool could understand this - but I guess not.
Knock on wood, but for 12 years now, I've had major luck with my modern appliances (if 2004 is considered modern by today's standards) All of my appliances are still going except the original dishwasher, which lasted just over 9 years. However, the fridge has had 2 minor repairs (minor being 100 to 200 each time), but still going. | ||
| Post# 893962 , Reply# 7 8/15/2016 at 00:11 (2,804 days old) by ilovewindex (Tualitan OR) | ||
Its Sad What WorldPOO has done
I have had several whirlpool appliances die a tragic death within there first year or so of life.. Hell even 6 weeks on a french door fridge I bought.. Thats not ok
The way there customer care treated me was even worse.. Thank god I bought it from sears.. SEARS made it right... Lowes made it right with the cabrio dryer whose electronics melted and the door that NEVER shut right... Sears replaced my Kenpool Dishwasher underwarranty because the tub cracked and the controls broke... 2010 Model Dishwasher, 2011 Model Dryer and a 2014 Model Fridge I will always lookfoawrd to owing older whirlpool stuff.. Once i can sell this house and build my dream home in the next 2 years, I will get an older whirlpool sxs to replace my french door samsung As of now, I am going to collect parts for the appliances i own.. Esp my convection microwave and washer... i will order a new drum and spider, computers, valves and so forth, so I have enough parts to rebuild it or keep it going a long while..Same with the microwave I want to get another older Maytag Jet Clean dishwasher and restore it and keep it aside for when im done with this GE.. Its a fine unit, but new dishwashers, can't wash as well as old ones Also the reason im getting my kitchenaid laundry set and going to order/buy a new GE top freezer soon as a second fridge... So then im fully covered As time goes on, the less and less i like new appliances.. I really am sad samsung put that dumb door in the washer... it takes away from the astetics, reliablity and you can't watch it | ||
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Post# 893971 , Reply# 8 8/15/2016 at 02:49 (2,804 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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I can remember when newly weds bought their major appliances,range,fridge,washer,and dryer when they were married.Then when their kids went off to college-their machines still were working and in use!Same with most of their small machines,too. | ||
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Post# 893980 , Reply# 10 8/15/2016 at 06:01 (2,804 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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 My favorite bit comes right at the beginning of the Maytag video above: He talks about how the maximum spin speed has been reduced quite a bit (to 850 rpm) because the manufacturer found that faster speeds were reducing the lifespan of clothing. I'd be willing to bet the farm the maximum spin speed was reduced because the machine couldn't take it. Wonder if a Maytag customer rep fed him that line?
THEY USED TO LAST 50 YEARS: Once again, I call bullshit on this ridiculous fantasy. Our 1960 Kenmore washer saw the repairman many times and the only reason it was still in use in 1984 was that my stepfather found a barely used mid-60's KM and transplanted everything under the hood to our '60. He liked the one-button cycle set-up of our Model 80, which is why he didn't just scrap it and use the newer machine.
The reason all the wonderful vintage appliances we see at AW are still alive is because they've been restored. Their natural lifespans were over decades ago.
The issue is that today's machines are not designed to be repaired easily or relatively inexpensively. One can argue the exception is SQ (especially with their front-loader), but sales of their residential line make up a tiny fraction of their corporate profit. If SQ sold only a residential line, they'd go out of business making washers that, with repairs, could last 25-50 years. Companies stay competitive on Wall Street not by repairing appliances already in the field, but by selling new ones. | ||
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Post# 893988 , Reply# 12 8/15/2016 at 07:15 (2,804 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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High speed spin and textile damage
When first got the Laundry Alternative spin dryer would run every load that came out of the Miele in it for four or five minutes, maybe more for thick and thirsty towels. Soon began noticing holes in certain garments (mainly knits such as T-shirts, drawers, etc..) and towels/washcloths started fraying at the selvages. Looked it up to find yes, subjecting fabrics to high speeds often and for long periods isn't a good idea.
Now only do bath linens and even then for about three minutes only. | ||
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Post# 894034 , Reply# 15 8/15/2016 at 14:45 (2,804 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Spin Speed & Damage
Much probably could be attributed to drum rhythms and quality of construction.
Loading washing into an extractor and leaving it for five, or more mins probably can cause damage say versus a washing machine with final spins of even 1400 or 1600 rpms. Once the extractor reaches max speed it will remain there until turned off. Washing machines OTOH usually do a series of ramping up to speed, slowing down to redistribute, then ramping up again. This and or final high speed (1200 1400, 1600, 1800)only occurs for a small portion of the total spin cycle. On my AEG the 1800 spin speed (if chosen) only is the final two minutes of total final spin cycle. | ||
| Post# 894078 , Reply# 16 8/15/2016 at 23:19 (2,803 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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I read the article again
just now - I noticed in the main article and the comments section, he recommends LG over any other brand for FL. I wonder where he gets this opinion? He seems to know a LOT and I agree with everything he says, but fifty years like frigilux says is a stretch. The longest appliance no repair stretch that I'm aware of personally is my grandma's 1984 Whirlpool dishwasher, which died in 2014, according to my dad. I asked him if he had ever repaired it and he said no. I do not know if my grandma ever had repairs on it, but knowing her, I doubt it.
My friend Elizabeth, who cooks A lot, told me that she has been through 4 ovens in 16 years. Her excuse was that she is hard on ovens and her constant cooking wears them out. | ||
| Post# 894143 , Reply# 18 8/16/2016 at 10:37 (2,803 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago) | ||
This topic always makes me laugh now.
Sure, statistically, older appliances used more durable materials; more metal. But that's what was cost effective at the time. And yes, prices were absolutely higher back then. They were luxury items. Now they're commodities, with commodity priced components. Many of which are Chinese or Mexican made now. My parents paid over $2000 in 2016 money back in the day for their Maytag set. The dryer lasted 20 years. The washer is still going! But it's on borrowed time. I bought my modern Maytag front load set for about the same money (a bit less) and got all sorts of bells n whistles. Will it last 20-30 years. NO. I know that. But I'm confident I can repair them if I need to. Even if I need to buy a rear tub kit with a bearing. Alas, I do not believe that type of longevity is typical. I think we're lucky. I don't know ANYONE anymore that has appliances that even go to the 90s. Sure, use has a lot to do with it, but parts just simply break down. And that '82 Maytag has not been without repairs. It's just "more repairable" than others. Especially today. Being in engineering, we're squeezed on price much more than in the past because companies really did invest more in their products to compete. But at the same time, we still do try to engineer things to the best ability of the allowed price. Not to mention raw materials and manufacturing costs are way way up from what they used to be. So there's a myriad of factors. Yes, lots of more parts are plastic today. Paint is thinner, metal is thinner. More sub-assemblies are glued or sonic welded together, so replacement is harder. But it's all those sub-assemblies that allow faster, easier initial assembly and keep costs down. They keep these machines light for transportation costs too, which are also sky high. Especially when you ship stuff across the ocean (eyeroll). In addition though, you can do many more amazing things with plastic than with metal, and many plastics ARE stronger than some metals in certain applications. In truth, the costs are moved to the consumer now, for repairs. Because now they have to buy a whole sub-assembly, because that one gasket or solenoid are simply NOT stocked anywhere. They're made to order and pre-assembled before they ever make it to the appliance company. But.....BUT....if you are skilled (rare today I know), you can totally change out a tub bearing sub-assembly, or get replacement resistors/relays at Fry's and re-solder them to your control board. It just all depends on how much down time you allot, or skill you have, or if you think it's even worth to repair. There is also the strong factor of real market research that companies do. And consumers are NOT blameless here. Whirlpool knows they must make x% profit on a certain machine to sell well in the market. They also know it costs x to make it last 3 years, or 20 years. And STILL make their margin. But the market price today keeps that cost/margin ratio far down. And the only way to raise it is comparatively with bells n whistles. The consumers just will not spend x money for washer or dryer. That eats away at the margin left for profit, design, shipping, components etc. The market squeezes you from all directions. Home Depot squeezes you. Wall Street squeezes you. Consumers squeeze you, as well as the shipping and labor. People just won't pay to cover those costs. So materials quality suffers to be the bare minimum to get it to sell. The one aspect though, that I do find particularly egregious, is the influx of ONE YEAR warranties on appliances. That's really a slap in the face. That totally reeks of "we slapped this turd together and we don't trust it either." That or they warranty the stuff they know will never break. My Maxima set has 10 warranties on the motors and drums. LOL! Those NEVER break! The drum? Really? LOL. But the bearing? LOL! Yeah on day 366, they won't touch it with a 39.5 foot pole. There's a lot of economic factors that have gotten us where we are. But there's a lot of greed as well. It's the influx of "money people" running companies instead of manufacturing or engineering folks. Like in the past. The only thing that will change this is if consumers get upset enough to start up many more class action lawsuits for shoddiness. While at the same time we should be thankful for how functional our appliances still actually are. And the fact that many many of them are still at least designed and fully assembled here (even though the BOM parts are often sourced elsewhere). That's my 5 cents. (2 cents in 1982). | ||
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Post# 894144 , Reply# 19 8/16/2016 at 10:58 (2,803 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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Even IF appliances were made the same way as they were in the 60's I'd wager that they would still be replaced every 10 years or so on average. Appliances today by and large just aren't repaired like they were years ago. The consumer sees an indicator light fail and they wonder what next and they trash the machine preemptively. Add into the mix the idea of new and fresh and a lot more replacements are done needlessly (see also Stainless Steel).
A couple years ago Annette's father has the draft inducer motor in his 6 year old furnace fail. It was going to cost nearly $900 to replace it. He pondered it a while and wondered what would be next to go. Out of fear alone $6000 later a new replacement was installed for that perfectly good furnace. Funny how people fear the possible replacement cost but they will just pay it upfront when the decision is theirs. | ||
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Post# 894219 , Reply# 20 8/16/2016 at 19:02 (2,802 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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People chuck relatively new appliances because the cost of repair (parts, labor, etc...) can and often does equal cost or near buying new.
We all have repaired vintage items in our collections, and once that is done the things go back to work. Old top loading washers could often be repaired and kept running until something major such as a tub rusting through occurred. Commercial Laundromat front loaders past and most now are all built to be not only repaired but in some cases rebuilt. You can find scores of Wascomat/Wascator front loaders from say the 1980's or even 1970's still chugging along. They may have been rebuilt/refurbished but still. As noted in above posts and in the video above modern appliance design and construction have largely produced machines that while cheaper than in the past, also have a certain planned obsolesce. Font loading washing machines for domestic use now by and large come with one piece inner/outer tub, bearing and seal assemblies. If something happens to one part the entire thing often must be junked. | ||
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Post# 894230 , Reply# 21 8/16/2016 at 20:42 (2,802 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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In addition to the points made by Phil and Launderess, I think young adults are conditioned to replace their electronics and appliances on something closer to a 4-5 year schedule. A five-year old phone, laptop, tablet or car is considered old technology. To me (with the obvious exception of washers and dishwashers) 4-5 years is only the break-in period. Entirely different mindset.
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Post# 894232 , Reply# 22 8/16/2016 at 21:07 (2,802 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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cost of repair (parts, labor, etc...)
The sad part is most of my friends and acquaintances don't ever bother to find out the cost, they always seem to assume the worst. Frequently the repair is simple, but they just toss out the machine anyhow because they are afraid to gamble on a service call. Funny that often they are regular lottery and casino players! Apparently they don't want to play a game they may win...
Just recently we had an axis drive failure on a CNC machining center at work. We swapped the drive electronics around and isolated the failure to the Yaskawa drive. The only repair for these is to send them in and pay a ~$900 flat rate fee for the repair. I had to open up the the drive to at least look for a failure. Sure enough a 30 amp fuse in there had just failed from age (the drive is from 1997). I got a replacement fuse for $40, machine runs great now. Moral of the store it it is almost always money ahead to get a diagnosis before replacing something expensive, the repair may be far cheaper. | ||
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Post# 894284 , Reply# 23 8/17/2016 at 05:59 (2,802 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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CNC machining The place I work at now has several 30 year plus old Deckel CNC machines. One of them has a faulty transmisson somewhere, thus only running at 50% max speed. Asked my boss about it: Replacing that transmisson would take close to 70 workhours. So much about old stuff being easy to repair. | ||
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Post# 894315 , Reply# 24 8/17/2016 at 09:12 (2,802 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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Henrik, that is a problem with mechanical systems, they are complex with lots of expensive and labor intensive parts to swap out. Our two newest CNC machines have no geared transmissions at all, they are entirely speed controlled with a variable frequency drive. The latest CNC machining center has a direct drive spindle too, it is just silent even at 10,000RPM.
Just like with the appliances, the advanced electronics are bringing in higher efficiency, better control, more reliability and simpler easier to repair drivetrains. | ||
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Post# 894339 , Reply# 25 8/17/2016 at 12:30 (2,802 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Going completly off topic here. We have a big, not even a year old CNC drilling station as well. I think its a Hurco HBMX 80 or such. Hige thing. Drilled 3 50mm diameter holes through about 600mm of stainless steel today. That thing is even more scarry then some of the old big bolted down Wascomats going into spin... | ||
| Post# 894365 , Reply# 26 8/17/2016 at 16:08 (2,801 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan) | ||
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My neighbor works for Heller. A German tool company which makes the machines that make CNC machines for manufacturing. They keep spares at a large off site warehouse. | ||
| Post# 894401 , Reply# 27 8/17/2016 at 19:35 (2,801 days old) by Sbond22 (Grove City, Fl. USA) | ||
My machinery ignore will show...
... but. Some years ago I found myself visiting a production facility. In the center there was something that to me resembled a submarine conning tower with "bullet proof" windows. I asked the operator next to it what it was. He said that inside it was a computerized lathe that automatically switched tools as they were needed. I asked about the bullet proof windows and he said it was in case something "went wrong." I asked what it was making now and he said " I have no idea".
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Post# 894456 , Reply# 29 8/18/2016 at 03:11 (2,801 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Bullet proof windows on machining equipment Yes, these are pretty much bullet proof. You all know tge exploding FL drum on european Candy/Hoover washers? If a part isn't properly secured, simmilar thing can and have verry easily happend. | ||
| Post# 894985 , Reply# 30 8/21/2016 at 21:27 (2,797 days old) by frontloaderfan (Merrimac valley, MA) | ||
My $0.02
Having recently ventured into the appliance section of the local big box store after a long hiatus in the appliance world and seen what "WhirledPoo" (love that!) is now offering for washing machines, I have to say I was literally shocked at the obviously cheap quality of the VMW machines. The metal is thin and cheap as is the paint. The useless post thingy on the ineffective looking wash plate was nothing short of pathetic, IMO.
Yes, they were only about $300.00 but what is the average consumer going to get out of these machines, other than headaches? Not having actually used one, I can't speak to their actual performance, but judging strictly by first impressions, I'd say these are truly disposable appliances. I, for one, would never buy one. | ||
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