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Thread Number: 70885
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
water temps in "energy efficient" washers....? |
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| Post# 938795 5/16/2017 at 09:56 (2,534 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
excuse the perhaps obvious ? don't pay much attention to non-vintage machines...
so our 1 yr old BOL Hotpoint top loader has the usual 3 water temps, but on the Hot setting the water is merely warm, at best. Is regulating (lowering) water temps one of the "features" on new machines to make them more "efficient"? I like to wash whites in really hot water, Sears detergent, and a bit of bleach, and the temp at the faucet of the adjoining laundry sink comes out steaming hot... what gives? | ||
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Post# 938797 , Reply# 1 5/16/2017 at 10:04 (2,534 days old) by Yogitunes  (New Jersey) |
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well, in this case, YES, your machine has a dubbed down setting, that you can't actually change....
not one choice will work for all machines....but we have done a few, some work, some don't.... some have tried to turn off the cold side when it fills, but doesn't work on all machines, as some will detect that the cold side is not available, and shut the machine down..... you can try unplugging or removing the thermistor to see if that allows an all hot fill... some machines have it built into the timer, when hot is selected, it allows for one minute of hot water, and then switches to either warm or cold for the rest of the fill.... you have to try different options....and still may not be able to get the temp you want.... one advantage you do have is the sink, as you can always hook up a hose to it, and fill the machine manually for the wash...that may be your only option.... | ||
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Post# 938813 , Reply# 2 5/16/2017 at 11:23 (2,534 days old) by Revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land) |
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I have a 2005 LG washer and this thing really "dumbs down" the wash temps. If I want a "warm" wash, I have to select "hot", as "warm" is maybe luke warm at best. The thing I really don't like is, no matter what temp you select, it always flows cold water about 8 seconds when you start it. I've tried adding hot water with a hose through the dispenser, but at some point, if the water is "too hot", it will start adding cold water again.
My "hot wash work around" has been, turning the cold water valve down to a trickle and adding hot with a hose through the dispenser. I have the cold at a trickle so I know when the water level has been reached. If I add too much water, it will start draining after only a few minutes of wash time. Fortunately this isn't my only washer, so if I want a "real" hot wash, I'll use another machine rather than baby sitting this one.
Kevin
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This post was last edited 05/16/2017 at 16:40 | ||
| Post# 938826 , Reply# 3 5/16/2017 at 13:38 (2,534 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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just did the hose fill...
to do a load with the super hot water as it comes from our tap, set around 170-180, and what a difference! When that load was done checked the water temp when on just the "Warm" setting, 105-110 at best.. sheesh! So to get Warm we need to set on "Hot", and manual fill to get truly hot water...not sure SWMBO will willingly go thru that rigamarole, I need to fix the 1:18 and put it on line!!
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Post# 938839 , Reply# 4 5/16/2017 at 14:48 (2,534 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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Roger
can you post a pic and model number..... just wondering if there is a way to 'override' this somehow......all we can do it try..... what does it do when you select HOT?.....does it cycle back and forth, or hot only for a short time, and then warm/cool mix to complete the fill....or what happens if you turn the cold faucet off?..... I don't expect a BOL machine to have intricate programming or wiring for getting past this, but then again, anything is possible... probably the best thing you have going, which many overlook to start with, is having your water heater set to a high setting, like 160-180......I have mine set like that, always have, always will.....most machines with internal heaters can't compete with that....KUDOS to you for that one! many people select hot, when their water heater is set to 120....their not starting with real hot water to start with....WTH? I only have one machine that dubs down, and the loss is only 10 degrees....its a Cabrio, tried pulling the internal thermistor out of its socket, but that affected the warm setting......found it best for this machine to remove the restrictor on the hot valve side.... ironic, Auto Temp Control was only for raising cooler temps....making sure warm was warm, and cold was raised for proper detergent activation, hot was never controlled.....odd how we have gone in a opposite direction......I expect the next generation of machine to have an ice maker dropping cubes into the tub! | ||
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Post# 938840 , Reply# 5 5/16/2017 at 14:48 (2,534 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 938854 , Reply# 6 5/16/2017 at 16:32 (2,533 days old) by COLDSPOT66 (Plymouth, Mass) |
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Why would you launder anything at 170-180 degrees? | ||
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Post# 938942 , Reply# 7 5/17/2017 at 06:15 (2,533 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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Post# 938947 , Reply# 8 5/17/2017 at 07:09 (2,533 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 938948 , Reply# 9 5/17/2017 at 07:10 (2,533 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Why would you launder anything at 170-180 degrees
Sanitation, disinfection, stain removal, heavy soils/oils, these are just off the top of one's head.
For European washing machines they were designed with those countries methods of washing in mind; that of the old ways which is to use very hot to boiling water for at least whites and colourfast. In the old days you did such things to get best cleaning with what was available (soap and basically soda), but then came oxygen bleach (sodium perborate) which really only gets going at temps >140F. By the 1970's or 1980's bleach activators came along (they were introduced due to the energy crisis) enabling one to get boil wash results even at hot or warm water temperatures. Americans OTOH never really went in for oxygen bleach, but instead use chlorine based agents. Chlorine bleaches work in hot, warm or cold water and are well suited to the short cycles other features of top loading automatic and semi-automatic washing machines. Indeed boiling went out for most American housewives when washing machines came in. If have badly soiled/stained laundry it goes into either Miele or AEG; set the machine to 180F or 200F, add a bit of Persil "universal" (Henkel), and that is that. | ||
| Post# 938975 , Reply# 10 5/17/2017 at 08:39 (2,533 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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model # HSWP1000MWW
3.6 cu. ft. cheapy BOL model, think we paid maybe 320-ish, delivered? We assume that we won't be in this house for more than 1-2 yrs and will leave it behind. Not a bad machine, actually, has a ribbed tub plus a 2 stage agitator: lower paddle, screw top, and it seems to move water around pretty well. Puts a fair amount of H2O in the tub and although far from state-of-the-art, except for the temps it does a reasonable job, no complaints all things considered.
I misspoke on temps, on the Hot setting it's more like only 110-115 degrees, on Warm it feels more or less like Cold to me, even after filling for some time, and the temps remain constant thru-out fill. Rather than futz around with internals think I'll just teach swmbo to fill it with a hose using tap water that comes out steaming hot, it may be more like 190+ degrees. For whites I like the old fashioned way of really hot water, NaClO, and use big orange box Sears detergent we picked up on sale 2 yrs ago on the recce of some folks here. The load done yesterday came out great. Best of all it's finally hang-on-the-line time in upstate NY... gotta love the way everything smells soooo fresh! | ||
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Post# 938982 , Reply# 11 5/17/2017 at 09:13 (2,533 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Easy peasy
Getting hot water on this model is by far the easiest. No need to cut wires and re-splice others as with most other models. All you have to do is unhook one of the water valve terminals. This model has 3 water valves, and when set to hot a single cold valve simultaneously opens giving warm- when warm is selected two valves open to give cool. I am unsure which terminal to unhook (dont have the schematic in front of me)- I believe the one with the yellow-black wire- but you can confirmed via the tech sheet in the control panel.
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Post# 938984 , Reply# 12 5/17/2017 at 09:19 (2,533 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Here is the link to the water valve: | ||
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Post# 938985 , Reply# 13 5/17/2017 at 09:24 (2,533 days old) by philcobendixduo (San Jose) |
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Warning Notices On Hot Faucets?
Hey, Roger,
I hope you have warning notices on faucets that house guests might use informing them that the hot water coming from the tap can scald them within a second of contact. 170-180 is a WAY too hot water temperature for a home setting. I'd hate to be in the shower when someone opens a cold tap somewhere in the house! AAAAEEEEEEEE!!! | ||
| Post# 939031 , Reply# 14 5/17/2017 at 16:18 (2,532 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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Yah we warn 'em! | ||
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Post# 939040 , Reply# 15 5/17/2017 at 17:18 (2,532 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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yeah, I got those temperature adjustment valves on the tub/showers....or rather, they refer to them as Anti Scald valves....
actually its a little disc under the handle, that you can adjust to 'set' the actual highest temp that would be allowed...all it does is control how far the knob can be turned towards the hot side... to save even more water, at least in the kids bathroom, a flow restrictor is installed, 2 gallons per minute was still too much for my liking, so I used a dime, and drilled a tiny hole, to reduce usage to 1 gallon per minute....still plenty of pressure for the hand shower.....flushing a toilet has little effect on temps.... | ||
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Post# 939042 , Reply# 16 5/17/2017 at 17:33 (2,532 days old) by rinso (Meridian Idaho) |
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Like most new energy star machines, our new LG top-loader has the dumbed down hot water, even on the "Bright Whites" load. I love the way the machine works otherwise, and it can be set to use extra water, except that, of course, it is cold. | ||
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Post# 939051 , Reply# 17 5/17/2017 at 18:03 (2,532 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA) |
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Day dreaming here about my new GE. If it has the three valve set-up and I figure out which wire to pull, could I then put in a small line switch that would let me have hot when I want and back to normal when not? | ||
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Post# 939056 , Reply# 18 5/17/2017 at 18:23 (2,532 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 939405 , Reply# 19 5/19/2017 at 16:47 (2,530 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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If the machine was made with 2018 EPA regulations in mind you won't be able to modify anything to get more hot water, or water into the machine | ||
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Post# 939623 , Reply# 20 5/21/2017 at 07:18 (2,529 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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2018 DOE regulations | ||
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Post# 939646 , Reply# 21 5/21/2017 at 09:35 (2,529 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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in just about any given newer HE machine, its usually the NORMAL cycle that is the most stringent on water savings....
I doubt a machine made a year ago would have restrictions for upcoming 2018 just yet... most of us have found ways around the lower water usage and dubbed down temps... any other option would be to look into returning to an older traditional washer and dryer...theres still plenty to find on CL | ||
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Post# 939666 , Reply# 23 5/21/2017 at 13:32 (2,529 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ) |
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Another Thought: If you are averse to depending on a vintage machine, I believe at least one of the Avanti (and clones) machines Yogi's discovered does NOT dumb down temps. Yogi, please verify. I've used these machines and am a devoted cheerleader. Jim | ||
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Post# 939693 , Reply# 24 5/21/2017 at 19:26 (2,528 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Sad thing is
These "energy saving" regulations do not save that much on average. Maybe between ten to thirty dollars per year (if that), depending upon how one heats water. That is the fly across behind of Obama/USA government when these rules were thought up. Oh and the cost of energy for drying laundry in a clothes drier.
Given the ever increasing costs of these "energy saving" machines, it would take perhaps nearly two decades to recoup any savings on energy. When you consider the average lifespan for most new washing machines is barely ten years you can see whole thing is a con. | ||
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Post# 939696 , Reply# 25 5/21/2017 at 20:31 (2,528 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Energy Savings Of New Energy Star Washers Are HUGE compared to machines built only ten or more years ago, Newer machines use just 1/4 the water on average [ filtering and supplying and cleaning water afterwards uses a HUGE amount of energy ]
Newer machines consume less than 1/2 the electricity to run them.
Newer ES washers use as little as 5 gallons of hot water compared to over 50 gallons of hot water, which is a 10 fold improvement.
New ES washers can extract twice as much water from clothing which saves a lot of electricity drying the clothing.
Hopefully there will be a standard encouraging consumers to switch to Natural gas dryers, doing so would save a HUGE amount of carbon dioxide emissions going into the atmosphere.
There is no going back, most consumers love their new ES washers, AND washers are lasting longer than ever before in automatic washer history, ask the guys that repair machines.
John L. | ||
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Post# 939701 , Reply# 27 5/21/2017 at 21:23 (2,528 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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One is always leery whenever anyone throws around superlatives like "Huge", or "Bigly" and so forth.
Energy savings a household will experience is directly tied to how it produces hot water and heats the clothes dryer and costs for said fuel. Here in NYC aside from multifamily housing (apartments) where connections are not possible, a majority of dryers run on natural gas. Given the rather dear rates in this state and especially city that is no surprise. Hot water supplies are a mixed bag; larger buildings with steam heating often get their hot water from a coil in boiler. That boiler more often than not as oil, but many are converting to natural gas. Again it varies by location and what is available but in NYC most homes use gas or oil for hot water (where it does not come from a side arm off boiler). Federal government "Energy Star" website speaks in terms of "average" and savings that "can" be reached. Even then an energy efficient washing machine is only rated to save on "average" $45 per year on utility bills. www.energystar.gov/produc... Average life span of new washing machines sold in USA is between 7-14 years, with between 10 to 11 most common. In order for an energy efficient appliance to "pay for itself" the savings must be reached during if not well before the thing requires major service/wants rubbishing. Forty-five dollars over course of one year is only $3,75 per month. IMHO not nearly enough motivation to bother with wash times measured in nearly two hours or more, machines that require "cleaning" cycles to keep mould and whiff at bay, and most of all being forced into being led and managed like a child who does not know how to do laundry. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 939703 , Reply# 28 5/21/2017 at 21:59 (2,528 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 939752 , Reply# 29 5/22/2017 at 10:47 (2,528 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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getting hosed...
well it turns out swmbo seems to actually like filling it via hose from the sink tap, it saves time since she likes to let the washer fill up somewhat before adding Sears Ultra Plus powder and bleach. The tap water is steaming hot and the whites are coming out so much cleaner and fresher now.
As far as gas vs elec drying, the most efficient is hanging outside, which we can do March/April to November, even in central NY. Nothing can beat that fresh-air smell and we love scratchy towels - yymv. | ||
| Post# 940047 , Reply# 31 5/24/2017 at 14:33 (2,526 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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nobody's shaming... | ||
| Post# 940214 , Reply# 33 5/25/2017 at 12:13 (2,525 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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solar...
can be utilized in 2 ways, directly on a clothes line, if one has the appropriate spot, or with PV panels. We do the former now when weather permits, and are in the process of adding the latter... 4.2 kW to start. Yes, pretty expensive, but nowadays the up-front cash investment for PV solar gives a far better monthly return at current interest rates than the alternatives.
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Post# 940303 , Reply# 34 5/26/2017 at 06:51 (2,524 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Economical and Environmentally Responsible Clothes Drying Hanging up clothing to dry is obviously the most economical and responsible way to dry clothing, I fully support anyone that wants to do so.
However using an electric dryer 1/2 the year instead of a natural gas dryer all year still does more harm environmentally in terms of using oxygen from the atmosphere and the amount of carbon dioxide you put into the atmosphere.
Like wise it makes no sense to use an electric dryer even though your roof is covered with solar panels, if again you have natural gas available. As long as you are connected to the grid it is better to let the excess power go back into the grid and dry your clothing in an environmentally better way with a NGD.
My home has 42 collector panels on the roof and they generate as much power as my home uses per year, but it is much better for me to use the gas dryer, as long as any power in the grid is produced by burning any type of fuel it will always make more sense to use the NGD. I is very unlikely that we will ever see a time in any of our lifetimes when all electricity will be generated by solar, wind and maybe nuclear power.
John L.
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Post# 940673 , Reply# 36 5/28/2017 at 15:57 (2,521 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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I Am Going To stick With My Statement That It Is Always Cheaper and More Environmentally Sound To Use A Natural Gas Dryer Over An Electric Dryer In The US For Homes Already Supplied By Natural Gas Service.
[ The only exception would be homes that are totally off the grid ]
Hi Paulo, you have made some good points and some that have nothing to do with this discussion. But none of your points bring the efficiency of using 6 KW of power to run an electric dryer even close to being as sensible as using less than a 1/2 KW of electric power to run a NGD.
Even if electric power plants are now 50% efficient that does not come close to 100% efficient heat use in a NGD. You must remember that around 30% of electricity is wasted in transmission lines and transformers alone. Even the 10 Ga. copper wire in your home [ after your power meter ] gets warm when the dryer is running wasting more power.
Leaks in gas transmission lines are a problem, but the lines are going to leak whether you use a gas dryer in your home or not. Also the amount of electricity used to pump NG through pipelines is extremely small. There is for example is no measurable heat build-up in the gas pipe running to your dryer caused by the friction of the gas flowing through it when the dryer is in operation.
If the day ever comes that an electric dryer makes more sense to use than a NGD people would have also abandoned NG furnaces, gas water heaters, gas pool heaters and NG all together in their homes, as a NG clothes dryer is the most efficient gas appliance built for use in the home.
John L. | ||
| Post# 940700 , Reply# 37 5/28/2017 at 19:36 (2,521 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
 Hopefully there will be a standard encouraging consumers to switch to Natural gas dryers, doing so would save a HUGE amount of carbon dioxide emissions going into the atmosphere.
I won't necessarily argue against gas dryers. But I will admit I get a little concerned with the thought of a "push" for gas dryers. A gentle push/encouragement is fine. But I worry about something getting jammed down people's throats, like it or not. Using a gas dryer is attractive on a number of levels. But there may be places and times where gas is not a viable choice. Indeed, there is zero gas service where I live. Past that, there are houses that don't have gas installations. Installing gas may be a painful cost and hassle for many "normal" Americans, such as the people barely holding on. "You'll save in utility bills!" may be true, but slightly higher utility bills per month might be more financially palatable than trying to find the $$$ for gas installation. (Particularly if it comes at the same time as buying a new dryer.)
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Post# 940706 , Reply# 38 5/28/2017 at 20:09 (2,521 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 940710 , Reply# 39 5/28/2017 at 20:49 (2,521 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Forcing A Switch To NG Dryers I totally agree that people should not be forced to have a NGD, and it would not make sense to run gas to a home just to have a NGD.
Propane heated dryers work well but it is less clear if using propane is a great advantage environmentally or for cost of operation, propane is usually about twice the cost of NG, but if you are using propane and buying at a good cost it may still make sense. | ||
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Post# 940749 , Reply# 40 5/29/2017 at 02:39 (2,521 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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The winning of natural gas takes a huge toll on the environment. I live in an area with big resources of natural gas. But exploiting those resources caused many earthquakes and damaged many houses. Natural gas is not such a environmental friendly source of power as many think. Think also about the fracking that happens in a lot of areas and the chemicals that are being used for that.
Overhere the government has decided we can't go on like that. We're going to change to more environmental friendly power sources like wind energy and solar energy. And a lot of research will be done towards other forms of energy so we will no longer be dependant on natural gas. The same applies for oil. Heatpump dryers are the most popular dryer here now. In combination with eco friendly energy, that will be a much better choice than a gas dryer with all the negative aspects of it. | ||
| Post# 942060 , Reply# 42 6/6/2017 at 12:53 (2,513 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT) | ||
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lots of good points made above...
pro and con nat gas.
Our situation is unique: 1.All the electric in Vermont is from Green Mountain Power, owned by Hydro-Quebec, Montreal, so we utilize only clean hydro electric power. 2. We don't have Nat Gas available here on the lake, that's a moot point. 3. In any event our winter home is in the SouthernTier NY, the ground zero Marcellus Shale area for potential hydraulic fracturing aka fracking, which we are opposed to due to environmental considerations... that movie showing water being lit on fire? It was made by Josh Fox about an hour from our house. Some nearby towns just over the line in PA (10 mi away) have been decimated by industrial traffic and well pollution. Nat gas and all fossil fuel technology needs to be quickly obsoleted imo. Fortunately NY has had the wisdom to ban all fracking for the foreseeable future. 4. The Nuclear Physicist in the family (son) chose an Islanding Solar System, one of most advanced (direct DC to battery backup without inverter), Kyocera panels w/ seasonally angle-adjustable pole mounts for efficiency (manual adjustable... All Earth dual-axis motorized tracking system is better but out of our range). Selectable grid-connected OR completely off-grid with full Lithium battery backup. Runs new Mitsubishi Cold Climate heat pump at full efficiency down to 15 below, will charge a future all-electric vehicle, run complete house: LED lighting, electric appliances, tools, &c. Goal: be completely independent if needed and as efficient & clean as is currently possible. | ||
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