Thread Number: 71061  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
I just fell in love with impellar washers!
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Post# 940668   5/28/2017 at 15:08 by chetlaham (United States)        

Starting at 13:42, I am starting to like this new concept :D










Post# 940676 , Reply# 1   5/28/2017 at 16:20 by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Pretty much the same as this Samsung - which has a Load Size selector(?). I never knew Samsung USA had top loaders that would allow you to select a load size.






Post# 940685 , Reply# 2   5/28/2017 at 17:21 by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        

ea56's profile picture
I love my new Maytag MVC415EW. It has an agipeller and functions pretty much just like the one in the first video. I've never owned an automatic TL that cleaned better. I use the Powerwash and Deepwater wash cycles the most and Bulky for large articles like flannel sheets, blankets, bedspreads, comforters and pillows. Every load is rinsed thoroughly and I've never used the extra rinse, its not necessary. I really like the presoak option for whites. The longest cycle time I've ever had so far is 60 mins. I'm sold on this design.
Eddie


Post# 940717 , Reply# 3   5/28/2017 at 21:49 by lotsosudz (Sacramento, CA)        
OPINIONS

lotsosudz's profile picture
I know that everybody has their own opinions on impeller washers.The deep water feature, seems to me, the only usable cycle on this format of washer I just do not see how the lower water level cycles, that bounce your clothes on top of the impeller cleans anything. I'm sure i'm wrong but I'm old school.

Post# 940759 , Reply# 4   5/29/2017 at 05:11 by chetlaham (United States)        
Only useable cycle

I would agree. I am going to be honest {fantasy time :)}, if they came out with a model with an infinite position pressure switch, all deep fill cycles (Heavy, Normal, Light, Delicate, Hand-wash, rinse, spin and drain) with temp switch I would buy one in a heart beat just for the delight. And a BOL Galaxy version of this would be so satisfying.

Post# 940877 , Reply# 5   5/29/2017 at 21:51 by KenmoreBD (Mass, usa )        

I don't mind "low water wash" but Whirlpool seems to go too far with it. I have a 2013 Ge top loader, it fills about halfway on the super setting and washes well on all cycles, but filling with just a few inches of water ala the new whirlpool stuff is not good. Filling to the top also appears to lessen the wash action.

Post# 940880 , Reply# 6   5/29/2017 at 22:11 by RevvinKevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
I am starting to like this new concept

revvinkevin's profile picture

 

 

Why?   Just because it fills all the way with water?  

 

OK so it fills all the way with water, AND?   Do you think your clothes will get clean in a machine like this with a full tub of water?   The only thing happening in these videos is it's swishing or swirling the garments around.   Sure it's great if you have delicate items that are lightly soiled, but real world soil... I'm sorry I don't see how anything would get clean.  It's just a waist of water unless you're washing large, bulky items.

 

Kevin

 

 

Kevin 


Post# 940890 , Reply# 7   5/29/2017 at 22:44 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Hi guys and gals. First time posting in years, although I lurk from time to time.

I had the previous generation of these belt drive HE washers. Maytag MVW700X or some such model I can't remember now. When it worked it cleaned very well, especially my white socks seemed to be cleaner on the bottoms. The control panel electronics started malfunctioning soon after I bought it.

It was hit or miss on certain cycles. The powerwash cycle started to malfunction and it would fill then pause and then drain out the water. It started to do this on the normal cycle too and instead of fixing it I went and bought a SQ set in 2013 and the rest they say is history.

Only got 2 years out of that machine. I still like the impeller method of washing but certain deep water cycles are useless unless washing delicate things. The fins are too shallow to make toroidal currents as seen in the video.

These machine clean best when the height of the water is just above the impeller by an inch or two. That's what I noticed in the 2 years I used mine.


Post# 940891 , Reply# 8   5/29/2017 at 22:46 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Calypso is better.  ;-)


Post# 940945 , Reply# 9   5/30/2017 at 03:24 by qualin (Canada)        

If I think about older conventional impeller machines, what they did is that they ran the impeller in one direction for a long period of time, creating a kind of a "whirlpool" so that the clothes would "fly" through the water.

(Some machines like older Japanese impeller machines would run the impeller for the better part of what.. 10 seconds at a time in each direction?)

I think that's probably the biggest weakness of these machines, is that with a high water level, the impeller doesn't run long enough in one direction, so this "whirlpool" never starts and moves the clothes through the water.

Unless I'm missing something here?


Post# 940972 , Reply# 10   5/30/2017 at 10:05 by RevvinKevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
I agree Bud

revvinkevin's profile picture

 

 

These top load HE impeller machines are designed to operate with low water levels and "grind" the garments clean.   The problem is when the tub fills with water, they didn't change the wash profile/program, or it changes very little if they did.

 

Yes the impeller on the older machines (twin tubs, etc) ran a longer duration before reversing direction, but also turn at a much higher rpm.  Yes I'm sure they could spin the impeller faster and for a longer time, but with a tub full of water there would be a big risk of water sloshing, splashing and getting up and over the top of the tub.  Obviously not a good thing.

 

Yes, the Calypso is a MUCH better washer than these things.

 

 

 


Post# 940991 , Reply# 11   5/30/2017 at 12:30 by wishwash (Illinois)        

I've noticed that the guy making those videos always selects a small load of laundry and a high water level. This exaggerates the wash action. I'd really like to see more realistic selections on these machines to see how they do in everyday use... most people wait to wash larger loads and don't use a full tub of water if they don't have to.

Post# 940998 , Reply# 12   5/30/2017 at 12:50 by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

I would like to see a dirty load, being washed in the regular cycle.

And see the before and after picture. Like those old Tide commercials.


Post# 941020 , Reply# 13   5/30/2017 at 15:01 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Even though the new upper end whirlpools and maytags have the DD BPM motors they do not seem to perform as well as the older F&P design they were using before the redesign.

Are the newer DD machines also connected to a gearbox ? They sure sound like the MVW belt driven machines. Unless they change the wash profile on the bulky settings that use more water i will keep clear of them. They simply do not seem to have the same torque as the f&p based washers. Those machines moved the clothes very well on the deep water cycles.


Post# 941036 , Reply# 14   5/30/2017 at 17:06 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
granted these don't compare to a Calypso....

this is a newer version, but I have a 2010 Cabrio, and it works very well, once you get past the mental part of lower water levels.....it is a concentrated detergent solution, and adds more water as it goes along.....

all I can tell you, the first wash water drain is filthy, there is usually 2 spins sprays for the rinse, the last draining is clear, and the clothes are clean.....you can't argue with those results....don't knock it until you get a chance to play with one...














kudos to JoeyPete for the vids........


Post# 941042 , Reply# 15   5/30/2017 at 17:37 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

I may be in the minority but I would take one of these f&p based machines before a calypso any day.

Post# 941047 , Reply# 16   5/30/2017 at 18:44 by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        

ea56's profile picture
Thanks Martin for posting Joeypete's excellent video's, and thanks Joeypete.

I haven't managed to rig my Maytag to watch with the lid open. But I have opened the lid from time to time to take a look and this is the level of water I've seen on the Deepwater cycle and the video of the white cycle appoximates the Powerwash cycle in the level of water. And judging from what I've noticed as to movement of garments, my Maytag does about the same.

The LG FL that I had before this never used as much water as the Powerwash. on the MT does. If I have a full to the top mixed load of towels and other garments I use the Deepwater cycle. It only fills to cover the fully saturated load with about 1" to 2" of extra water and seems to be fully adequate. The Bulky cycle does fill to the top if necessary, and does a great job on extra large articles.

I agree with Martin, you need to play around with one to really know how they perform.

Where the LG excelled was in extraction, the MT doesn't spin as fast. But this hasn't been a problem.

It would be a boring world if we all liked the same things.
Eddie


Post# 941056 , Reply# 17   5/30/2017 at 19:30 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
mine is a 2010, very close to this one of Gansky's.....

have found this one to be the best at a water to clothes adjustment for auto sensing, it wont start agitating until there is enough water to make the tub float...like it or not, it is effective...

I did remove the restrictor on the hot water side, warm is warm, and hot is only dubbed down about 10 degrees from my water heater setting....it fills faster too...







Post# 941106 , Reply# 18   5/31/2017 at 03:45 by chetlaham (United States)        
@Kevin

I hear you, but do you have anything to back up your claims? Maytag manuals from the 70s specifically said it was water moving through the garments that cleaned clothes. There are parts of the world that used (and still use) impellars and in so far appear to be doing well. A full tub of water gets rid of the excessive wear and tear (IMO) from the impeller and gives more room for loading. Over all, if this design was tweaked just a tad on deep water level I think it would give really good results with added tub volume.

Post# 941145 , Reply# 19   5/31/2017 at 13:44 by RevvinKevin (Between Mickey Mouse & the Queen Mary (So. Cal.)        
Anything to back up my claims?

revvinkevin's profile picture

 

 

Yeah, watch the two videos you posted at the beginning of the thread.

 

 


Post# 941150 , Reply# 20   5/31/2017 at 14:10 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

I washed a couple 30" x 46" rubber-backed rugs (separately) in my Calypso a couple days ago.  Used the Woolens cycle for minimal nutation and more recirculation-shower time.  Sometimes use the Bulky cycle which has some moderate-speed nutation.  I place them in the drum with the nap facing upwards and the perimeter folded under.  It works very nicely.  Be interesting to see how an impeller machine handles such items, on both a low-water cycle and a deep-fill cycle.


Post# 941164 , Reply# 21   5/31/2017 at 16:07 by chetlaham (United States)        

I watched them, and in so far they do not provide written proof that water movement does not clean as well as scrubbing. Deep water impellars are still big in Japan.

Post# 941165 , Reply# 22   5/31/2017 at 16:14 by chetlaham (United States)        
Impellars with more water

Here are some vids of modern impellers:


















Post# 941167 , Reply# 23   5/31/2017 at 16:21 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Deep water impeller machines are still popular in a lot of countries. Often they are used for cold water washing with special detergent for that. You don't need much power, just a lot of water to use them.

When I bought my LG Turbodrum I had hoped it would do a good job, but alas it was a bit of a disappointment. I couldn't get my whites as clean in a Turbodrum as I did in one of my European frontloaders.


Post# 941169 , Reply# 24   5/31/2017 at 16:27 by chetlaham (United States)        
Impellars in other countries

While they tend to fill less than our top loads, they usually fill more than our impellers. I know you guys will call this a worst case, but seriously, this should not be happening:







Post# 941171 , Reply# 25   5/31/2017 at 16:33 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Those impeller washers are very different from the one the guy was demoing earlier in the thread.

If you just want to play with one to see what they're like, some fully automatic washers with impellers cost about $500 (although some on sale go for $250), but you could have a twin-tub (Panda, Haier, Giantex, Danby etc), for about $150, some for as little as $98.

You can get an impeller washer with no spin basket for less than $100 if you shop around.

Then there are all the people on craigslist and eBay that got tired of such things when they moved out of the apartments that forced them to have one, those can be even cheaper.

Once you play with one, you'll see that Kevin is right -- the action and cycles in HE impeller machines (particularly cycle length) are optimized for low water. High water level will need to extend the wash length to get the same results.

Also, HE impellers often take several minutes just to decide how much water and what rhythm and cycle length it will use. The impeller washers you list typically can start causing twisting and fabric damage on any cycle longer than 10-15 minutes -- they are optimized for cycle speed, not energy savings or fabric wear.

Having used all but the new HE impeller machines, I'd say that the cleanest clothes I've got came from frontloaders with high-temp heaters (95C/205F), then frontloaders with heaters, then toploaders with agitators or impellers.

The impeller washers are fun to watch, and, at the cost of high fabric wear, they can get the clothes very clean if you let it wash for 20 minutes or more.

But at the end of the day, for me (your mileage might vary), most of the time I don't have time to watch the washer and dial-push it until it does clean and rinse as well as I want, so my choice is still to buy the best front loader I can have at the time.

Others should do what makes them happy.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.


Post# 941174 , Reply# 26   5/31/2017 at 16:55 by UncleDave (California)        

uncledave's profile picture
Who makes that top loader with a horizontal axis like that?
I know of the staber, and an older Miele, but nothing like what you are showing in that pict..
You mention Calypso but thats not like the Calypso's Ive seen.

Thanks....

Uncle Dave


Post# 941175 , Reply# 27   5/31/2017 at 16:59 by chetlaham (United States)        
High fabric wear

But not with deep fills, correct?

Post# 941178 , Reply# 28   5/31/2017 at 17:41 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Fabric wear with those Asian-style impeller washers is very high, higher than a traditional toploader with agitator, despite all the water they use.

You can't really use those impeller machines, at the speed and rhythm they run the impeller, with low water. If you try, you are likely to stall the motor, or, at best, cause water to splash out of the tub.

There's a bit of a learning curve when you get used to how much clothes (and what kind) you can load them with and how much water to use.

I have a Panda XPB45 (4.5 kg/10lbs) twin-tub that I got from Amazon about a year or two ago to play with.

A friend of mine came to use my laundry (they live in an apartment building with a sketchy laundry room, coin-operated). They usually just use my frontloaders. This time the husband was curious to see what a twin-tub was like, 'cuz his granny complained about how much more work it was before automatics showed up.

He put a load of shirts in the machine, we filled the tub with the highest possible water level (it's completely manual, except for the timers). He washed for only 10 minutes or so. Shirts got as clean as the toploaders in a laundromat, but not as clean as they'd get in a domestic toploader or if we ran the machine for 15 minutes (max time on timer).

The shirts got rinsed and extracted, and they were *visibly* more worn out then when they went in. Every few months, when the laundromat in their building is giving them grief, they come back and I poke fun if they want to do the laundry as fast as possible with the twin-tub, they crack up, decline it and use the frontloaders.

A better trade off would have been to agitate for 2-3 minutes, soak for 30 minutes, then agitate for another 2-3 minutes.

The vast majority of people who still like to use such systems have clothes that are (a) very sturdy (jeans, work t-shirts or shirts) and (b) work dirty jobs, so they can fully control the cycle including long soaks and long wash periods. Also the machines are cheap to buy and basically disposable if they need repairs (usually they just send you a new one to replace it).

Everyone else that I know of that wants to just load the machine, go away for one hour or two and come back to clean clothes moved to automatic machines. Everyone I know that want to have clean clothes with minimal fabric wear has bought a front loader -- in fact, about 10 years ago, my folks went to some touristy beach and got us all t-shirts. About 5 years in, when *their* t-shirts were worn out and gone (they had a regular toploader with agitator), they started pestering their kids whose t-shirts were still looking new about what washers and methods they used. We all said "hot wash in a front loader". About 4 years ago or so they bought their first front loader and are still talking about how much cleaner and less worn out their clothes look.

Like I said, mileages do vary, depending on what water quality, detergents etc one uses.

I've been describing my experience and my family's experiences.

Everyone else should research and find out what is best (or more fun) for themselves and the conditions they see everyday.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.


Post# 941179 , Reply# 29   5/31/2017 at 17:41 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
about the only downside to a HE impellor machine is washing a puffy comforter, even on the Bulky Cycle....a FLer is usually best.....

but for a King Size quilt, it has no issues on a 'sheets' cycle....Deep Water Option not needed....

you will actually find less wear and tear, and lint in a HE impellor machine versus a traditional TL with an agitator...


even my Avanti and Magic Chef can be operated in regular or HE mode....


as with anything, your mileage may vary....


Post# 941180 , Reply# 30   5/31/2017 at 17:58 by washerdude (Canada )        

Samsung and a king size comforter:




This would be a true bulky load test, but I'd still prefer a FL to wash bulky items like these.


Post# 941184 , Reply# 31   5/31/2017 at 18:09 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

I should have been more explicit with my text -- yes, the HE toploading washers are gentler than the non-HE (traditional) impeller ("pulsator") machines.

What I am talking about is very close to this machine that Roger is demoing. In fact, I believe the differences between the machine he is demoing and the one I have are basically I have a 10 lbs load machine, I believe his washer is a bit smaller (7 lbs, perhaps?), the rest is just cosmetic. (BTW, Roger posts here, I forgot his username, and also in Vacuumland, his youtube channel is a treasure trove.)

Have fun!















Post# 941193 , Reply# 32   5/31/2017 at 20:14 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
well then your comparing apples to oranges.....

the OP that started the thread, or I should say the subject matter, is focused at standard TL HE machines that use an impellor type of wash action....

even so, in the vids you posted, also mentioned in those, wash action was very effective, and all stains were removed to his liking....nor was there any mention of excessive wear....outside of washing a load he felt was too much for that size of machine...

the Avanti 1.7 is rated at a 12lb capacity, which is equal to a GE V12 FilterFlo....pretty impressive if you ask me...and its fully automatic and extremely flexible controls.....my next choice is to try out the 3.0 version....

my best advice if you dont have one, attend an event and try one out....it might change your mind, it sure has to the members who have seen mine...


Post# 941197 , Reply# 33   5/31/2017 at 20:39 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Martin:

I'm not sure where I mis-communicated.

RevvinKevin mentioned that if one fills an HE toploader with that much water and that few clothes, the swirling around will not clean the garments as effectively as if one lets the machine autofill or uses a lower water level.

He also mentions that the older impeller/pulsator washers (non-HE, twin-tubs etc) run differently than the machine the original poster was talking about.

Then the OP asked RevvinKevin if he had anything to back up his claims, and Kevin told him to watch the videos posted.

I thought all I posted was agreeing not only with what Kevin said, but also with what Louis and you said. I have not personally *used* the new-style HE toploaders, but I do have experience with the high-fill pulsator machines. Some newer designs are OK to good, but on average, they are pretty aggressive on the fabrics.

The Avanti washer you are talking about has some form of fuzzy logic to vary the rhythm of the wash action, right? Not just fixed speed with fixed timing.

My initial comment had to do with the fact that when told that half a dozen garments on a full fill HE-topload wouldn't clean as well, the OP posted non-HE pulsator machines examples as if they were equivalent. They are not.

My responses have to do with the fun factor: he can get an automatic pulsator machine for not much money or a twin-tub for even less. The downside is that the twin-tubs are rough on fabrics, and a lot of people who *buy* that style of washer *expects* it because of the type of laundry they are doing and because they tend to pre-treat the fabrics and run a shortish cycle if they can.

My impression is that I *was* pointing out how much of apples and oranges the two systems are.

Sorry I failed.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.


Post# 941199 , Reply# 34   5/31/2017 at 20:57 by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
"Dense Foam Action"

I nearly fell of the couch, laughing, when I heard that! This isn't a Kirby shampoo attachment, this is a washer. While I like High sudsers for the old fashioned look while washing, we all know that that is the stupidest claim Panasonic could have made about their washer.

Post# 941203 , Reply# 35   5/31/2017 at 21:46 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
no, I get where your coming from....

the Avanti does have fuzzy logic of sorts, which I would love to see in these full size machines....

heck, I would love to see these full size machines with this much flexibility in cycles and options....

there are too many variables to list with the choices you make as to what the machine will do.....

just by water level alone, say for instance, the low setting will automatically adjust wash pattern and speed versus a high water level...

theres also no messing around with sensing and adjusting.....pauses are built in for soaking, but that is based on the cycle selected....

I felt the same way that many did about these low water level machines.....first another member showed me his, then I got a few to play with....they are interesting machines...

in that full fill HE, if the wash action was more vigorous, it might give better cleaning results....but also good to know if washing something delicate...but that is a lot of water for washing a few items...

I always welcome you attending one of my events....bring some laundry...and give a few of these machines a whirl....

and to think, these newer ones are adapting better...new ideas may come to light...

as to the suds in an HE....if you seen a calypso in action, whipping the water and detergent into a high concentrated lather saturating the load....as long as the machine can rinse it all away, your not going to get any better cleaning than that....



Post# 941242 , Reply# 36   6/1/2017 at 06:44 by joeypete (Concord, NH)        
Oh geez....

joeypete's profile picture
That's my main comment on this subject since it's been beat to death!

I feel like a broken record....

My new Maytag cleans extremely well...whether it's a small load or large load, using HE or Deep Fill. I'm very impressed with it. I feel kind of the same way about the older style DD machines, like the Kenmore I had. The agitator seemed a bit more robust and the machine overall was a bit more aggressive with agitation. But honestly the new lower profile impeller really does a good job too. I only wish that recirculating water was standard on all these types of machines. If anything it gives you more of a sense that the clothes are getting thoroughly drenched with cleaning solution.

I'm really convinced that people dissing HE machines are doing so just to piss off people that like them. I mean how many videos and personal statements from people that own these machines and use them regularly do you need to believe they DO work? Everyone must be lying and are being paid by appliance companies to endorse these machines! LOL. Oh brother.

YOU DON'T NEED 1000 GALLONS OF WATER TO GET CLOTHES CLEAN.



Post# 941278 , Reply# 37   6/1/2017 at 10:52 by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        

ea56's profile picture
Very well put Joeypete, thanks! It's almost insulting for people that haven't even used these types of machines to make blanket statements that they don't work or clean well. If you don't like the idea of this kind of machine, then don't buy one! Different strokes for different folks. But to insinuate that those of use that do own one of these machines and are pleased with them, don't know WTH we are talking about shouldn't have a place on a website dedicated to those of us that love washing machines. Theres room for everyone and there is always something new to learn until you take the final deep sleep at the end of the road.
Eddie


Post# 941315 , Reply# 38   6/1/2017 at 17:07 by chetlaham (United States)        
don't work or clean well

Not what I was trying to communicate- just that if I had an impeller washer my preference would be for a deep fill. Opinions and preferences do vary, and deep filling is just my own. I was not trying to bash those who get great results from HE washers- I am certain most people on here get stellar results. :) As I've said before, I would not mind a SQ front load washers- and if they put heaters in them I would have probably gotten on of those over a traditional top load.

Post# 941324 , Reply# 39   6/1/2017 at 18:12 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
If that's the case Chet, then I doubt you were Joey's target audience:)

Post# 941328 , Reply# 40   6/1/2017 at 18:22 by washerdude (Canada )        
One thing...

Just one thing I wish is FL's and HE TL's would use recirculation pumps standard on all models, and kept them on all cycle long for the washes an rinses. In both units It would really help cleaning performance and also help to shorten times.

Post# 941329 , Reply# 41   6/1/2017 at 18:24 by chetlaham (United States)        

Thats good to know then, I don't want to get on anyone's bad side. :) Lots of appreciable folks here.

Post# 941337 , Reply# 42   6/1/2017 at 19:10 by cuffs054 (GA)        

Not to add fuel, but... I really wanted to like the Tags. The final straw was washing four sweaters on the wool cycle. I decided not to interfer with the machine but at the end of the wash one whole sleeve of one sweater was still dry. I'm super careful to load correctly but even on "deep water wash" it won't fill over half full.  I keep the lid lock bypassed so I can give the washer a helping hand with a mid to large load. Just kinda disappointing.





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