Thread Number: 71469
/ Tag: Refrigerators
Horrible Apartment Bulidng Fire In UK and Exploding Refrigerators. |
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Post# 945757   6/28/2017 at 18:06 (2,492 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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First let one say am deeply saddened and greatly affected by the Grenfell flats fire. Such a tragic loss of life that could have been easily avoided it seems.. One's heart goes out to those who have suffered grievous losses and the other victims.
Being as this may while reading local media coverage of the fire (NYT) the article mentions an exploding refrigerator (Hotpoint) as likely culprit in starting the blaze. Am at a loss on this; how does an refrigerator "explode"? Have never heard of such a thing in all my experience. We are speaking of an electrically powered unit no? |
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Post# 945762 , Reply# 1   6/28/2017 at 18:51 (2,492 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Post# 945769 , Reply# 3   6/28/2017 at 19:41 (2,492 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)   |   | |
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A woman's fridge-freezer exploded. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK |
Post# 945771 , Reply# 4   6/28/2017 at 19:42 (2,492 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Most refs in Europe [ 90% in Germany alone ] use butane gas as the refrigerant which is highly flammable, a leak near the red-hot defrost heater or a leak at a compressor terminal is all you need for a really good fire.
We are seeing the little Frigidaire refs that are built in China that have Butane in them, there are even warnings inside the freezer not to ever apply heat or use any sharp tools in the freezer section. |
Post# 945772 , Reply# 5   6/28/2017 at 19:50 (2,492 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Ever since events unfolded have been keenly following. Am that gob smacked that a building would be allowed to have such flammable cladding, worse that it seems everyone from local council on up to Downing Street ignored clearly what was a powder keg primed to blow.
Living in a large urban area (New York) which by nature includes many high rise buildings. ones worse fears are being stuck in when during a major fire. These fears were intensified after the horrible events of 9/11/01. That a tall building basically went up in flames like *that*, is amazing. |
Post# 945775 , Reply# 8   6/28/2017 at 20:12 (2,492 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)   |   | |
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Apparently, this is the machine which caused it all. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK |
Post# 945788 , Reply# 9   6/28/2017 at 21:27 (2,492 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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What was put on the outside of the building to"Pretty it up" was never meant to be used in any building that a fire department ladder truck cant reach and I am sure London has good ones that could still not reach. this cladding has a very flammable inside and when that apartment blew up the whole place went up. Maybe other parts of the world should use the R2D2 or whatever it is that runs our refrigerators now.My next door neighbor is a Fire Chief and said this would never have been allowed in the US, BUT do people skirt the law, OH YA!
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Post# 945791 , Reply# 10   6/28/2017 at 21:56 (2,492 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Isn't allowed for building facades here in USA. And any one who did so in the event of a fire or disaster such on the magnitude of what happened in UK would be sued into the ground, and that includes Alcoa or whatever it calls itself now.
Since UK court system and liability laws are different there won't any of the same "hundreds of billions" of dollars legal judgments I shouldn't wonder. More is the pity; it clearly that would be the only thing those in government and elsewhere who failed to head the warnings would understand. We shall have to see what comes out of coroner's inquest. |
Post# 945836 , Reply# 14   6/29/2017 at 07:24 (2,492 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)   |   | |
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As mentioned by Jon... CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK |
Post# 945843 , Reply# 15   6/29/2017 at 07:55 (2,492 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Public housing (or Social Housing) has been a sticky touch point in politics and society since it's inception in the late 1800's. Lack of proper funding, design problems and stigmas have plagued the sector and continue all but unabated today.
The U.S. HOPE VI program in the 1990's set out to correct many of these issues with aging housing stock but other than a handful of success stories, hasn't lived up to it's own name for providing safe, habitable housing for the poor and elderly. The Section 8 program in the US provides direct housing assistance for the poor and elderly and has adopted a voucher program in an effort to clear out behemoth housing projects in major cities and shifted the residents to, in many cases, private single family homes and apartments. Instead of being able to point a finger at a tower block or neighborhood, this has dispersed the same problems across larger areas of cities and towns but hasn't cured the problem. Lack of inventory and funding have only exacerbated the underlying problems but made them less visible and offensive to the observer. It's estimated that only one in four (one quarter) of our citizens who need and would qualify for housing assistance in this country actually get the help they need. For a glimpse of the largely invisible problems faced by a shocking number of people in the US who live with housing insecurity, check out the book Evicted by Matthew Desmond (link). One of the HOPE VI programs that tried to alleviate the housing shortage was public-private partnerships, similar to the Grenfell tower in London. Instead of creating a more efficient and cost effective solution, in many cases, it has led to the degradation of quality housing and created another layer of danger in the housing system. The same can be said of health care and education, but those are different threads of the same fabric. Until we as a society begin to take seriously the need for proper, safe housing for our fellow human beings and recognize the value of housing security being first and foremost in our supposed "war on poverty" we will continue to marginalize the most vulnerable and least powerful among us. CLICK HERE TO GO TO gansky1's LINK |
Post# 945874 , Reply# 18   6/29/2017 at 12:58 (2,491 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 945887 , Reply# 19   6/29/2017 at 14:48 (2,491 days old) by iej (.... )   |   | |
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Very unlikely to happen again now that the cause is identified the cladding will all have to be replaced, regardless of cost, as otherwise the buildings would be uninsurable. |
Post# 946228 , Reply# 26   7/1/2017 at 14:14 (2,489 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)   |   | |
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"It just doesn't work." |
Post# 946315 , Reply# 28   7/2/2017 at 05:46 (2,489 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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It doesn't. Thats the terminology the media uses which is incorrect. Much like every time power lines down and arc the media mistakenly calls it a "transformer explosion" Absolutely has nothing to do with a failing transformer and nothing is exploding. Same with a car that caught fire around me, the local media mistakenly reporting a "a car exploded going ablaze earlier this morning" People literally thought a bomb had exploded before the thing was a blaze.
This is exactly why our president frequently calls out the media so frequently. By lot and far just about everything the media reports is in some way shape or form obfuscated, erroneous, misrepresented or just plain untrue. Just about every expert in his field will tell you when the media does a report in his area of understanding its often inaccurate to some degree or another. Major media outlets seek to generate revenue, and that often involves sensationalism. Reporters and journalists are not experts in the fields they are investigating or reporting on; and there is no system of accountability to make sure their work is accurate or truthful. Most are employed by networks seeking to push political agendas with heavy bias, and media outlets will often make up sources to remain interesting or relevant. I know most of you will think I am describing the coverage of big political stories, but this mod of operation stretches to everything from covering wars to weather reporting. None of it should be taken seriously, its extremely dangerous when you do. |
Post# 946323 , Reply# 29   7/2/2017 at 07:33 (2,489 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)   |   | |
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They do. Look at the newspaper reports linked above, then you'll see. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK |
Post# 946325 , Reply# 30   7/2/2017 at 08:18 (2,489 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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See how easy it is to go wrong? Even without meaning to.
Transformers DO explode. The industry term is 'fault'. Consists of high to very high potentials escaping from where they belong, exceeding the trip rating of the switchgear feeding them, accompanied by an immense amount of heat inside a sealed container, breaching said container. In other words, exploding.
I've seen it happen. So have a crew of hapless firemen helplessly watching it burn for hours. As though prescient, I awoke at 3AM just in time to hear a huge EXPLOSION a mile away, and the LED clock went dark. Only one thing within a mile of my house to explode. I drove to the substation and sure enough, 138kV transformer with 30-foot flames where the top used to be.
Here's where you're right: Media covering a tornado, video of purple plasma on the horizon, voiceover says "transformer exploding". It's typically not. The industry calls that "faulting" too. And there is a rapid expansion of heated gas (atmosphere) making a sound akin to thunder but with a 120Hz component thrown in.
Here's why they say that: They have to call it something their audience (of dummies) can relate to and they settled on 'transf explod'g'.
Here's where you're also right: EVERY time I hear media reporting on something *I* know in some depth, they misspeak to some extent and sometimes a great extent. But to the bulk audience, the distinction is immaterial as it wouldn't understand the 'correct' terminology anyway, much less the physics. Worse, from media's perspective, the audience would actually tune away because their ignorance was being exposed. And if there's anything stupid people don't like it's their stupidity exposed.
Which ironically is the root cause of the stupidity plague. Media being caught in that loop. It wouldn't pay them to be dead on balls accurate. (It's an industry term. My Cousin Vinny.)
"The cockpit? What is it? It's the little room at the front of the plane where the pilots sit, but that's not important right now." |
Post# 946328 , Reply# 31   7/2/2017 at 08:52 (2,489 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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As I mentioned in my earlier post many if not nearly all newer refs in much of the world use Butane refrigerant which is highly flammable and if a leak develops inside the ref from say a leaking evaporator [ leaking evaporators are by far the common source of sealed system leaks ] and then the control kicks on and the spark from the contact in the thromostat or relay if the ref has an electronic control and BOOM.
This could also happen with tragic consequences when you open the door and the spark from the light switch sets off an explosion.
[ Imagine being on a diet and sneaking down to the ref in the middle of the night to score some ice cream and having the ref blow up when you open the door, LOL ]
I would like to hear from you guys in other countries about how common the use of flammable butane is in refs where you live.
John L. |
Post# 946339 , Reply# 33   7/2/2017 at 09:38 (2,488 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I was translating white papers for B/S/H when they started planning to make home refrigerators with flammable refrigerants. They did an enormous amount of testing - both in terms of the manufacturing (vent fans and air flow and both sophisticated and mega-simple, fail-safe monitoring systems) as well as shipping, inventory, end-user.
Their engineers knew enough gas was present at the factory for an explosion. They knew enough was present in a delivery wagon on a train or in a truck for an explosion. They were unable, ever, to bring a single, solitary unit to explode with the amount of gas with which it was charged. Just couldn't get the air/gas mixture needed.
But - they (to their shock!) managed to ignite gas jets which burned long enough to set surrounding plastics on fire. This really, really bothered them. Enough for them to change the composition of the materials, the rear wall and to reroute one capillary tube (at considerable expense).
Had I not been there, I'd have never known of it. It cost B/S/H enormous amounts of money to do it right. I sincerely doubt that the gas in a properly designed fridge, in an of itself can collect in the proper gas/air mixture to explode in the dictionary definition sense of the word. That, however, the plastics used and the awful construction and attention to safety (lack thereof) for which today's Hotpoint is known all contributed to one heck of a fire? Don't doubt it one bit. That the melting plastic might have released enough explosive gas/es to make an explosion possible? Don't doubt that, either.
Is it possible Hotpoint had such a bad design that a pocket of R-600 managed to reach a gas/air mixture capable of explosion? Sadly, yes, I've seen enough of their trash in the UK to believe they'd make such a mistake.
So - realistically - no, refrigerators don't, all in all, explode. Can they, under certain conditions? Obviously, yes.
Is R-600 therefore a bad choice? Nope. Just Hotpoint.
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Post# 946362 , Reply# 34   7/2/2017 at 14:53 (2,488 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Post# 946373 , Reply# 35   7/2/2017 at 15:39 (2,488 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)   |   | |
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My Beko fridge-freezer has R600a, which is isobutane. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK |
Post# 946375 , Reply# 36   7/2/2017 at 16:21 (2,488 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Post# 946378 , Reply# 37   7/2/2017 at 16:43 (2,488 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)   |   | |
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"I've seen enough of their trash in the UK to believe they'd make such a mistake" says Panthera...
Really ? what you would have seen is Indesit products with the Hotpoint name on them, alas Hotpoint UK had their main refrigeration plant in Peterborough their head office, and made quality refrigeration products that withstood the test of time since the 50`s and are still going strong today. The cost cutting does see new models now consisting of a side skin of metal with foam insulation and a polycard backpanel, thats on most cheaper refrigeration products, ya get what ya pay for, Miele / Liebherr on the other hand are a different kettle of fish . Whirlpool must rue the day they ever entered into world domination of the appliance market with the takeover of Indesit, BUT even we must be patient and see what the outcome of the affected model is, ie was it a faulty appliance ( as this model was not on a recall programme) or did other aspects conspire ? Whatever it is its a horrendous situation for all those dear people affected, don't even ask about the underfunding of social housing stock since the Thatcher years in this country!! |
Post# 946384 , Reply# 38   7/2/2017 at 17:36 (2,488 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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It would be very easy to have an explosive mixture of gas and air behind the evaporator cover when a ref goes into defrost and the fan is off with just a few ounces of R-600, the folks at Bosch did not try very hard.
Even with refrigerants that are not flammable like R-12, R-22 or R-134A you can have quite a fire when a terminal blows out of the compressor and a spark occurs as the terminal is torn loose from a live wire and the refrigerant is blowing oil out, I have seen it happen. |
Post# 946407 , Reply# 39   7/2/2017 at 19:25 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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"Transformers DO explode. The industry term is 'fault'. Consists of high to very high potentials escaping from where they belong, exceeding the trip rating of the switchgear feeding them, accompanied by an immense amount of heat inside a sealed container, breaching said container. In other words, exploding." Of course they explode, and yes an uncleared fault within a transformer or uncleared external short circuit on the secondary of a transformer can cause one to explode from the oil boiling over and building pressure within the tank. Pole mounted units are the most susceptible because they are only protected by fuses and not sophisticated differential protection. That however does not make downed wires, arcing and sparking, an exploding transformer. "I've seen it happen. So have a crew of hapless firemen helplessly watching it burn for hours. As though prescient, I awoke at 3AM just in time to hear a huge EXPLOSION a mile away, and the LED clock went dark. Only one thing within a mile of my house to explode. I drove to the substation and sure enough, 138kV transformer with 30-foot flames where the top used to be." I never said transformers do not explode. In fact I've personally seen a few, from a distance go up in a fireball. Nowhere did I say they were in capable of doing that, but people are insinuating I did. "Here's where you're right: Media covering a tornado, video of purple plasma on the horizon, voiceover says "transformer exploding". It's typically not. The industry calls that "faulting" too. And there is a rapid expansion of heated gas (atmosphere) making a sound akin to thunder but with a 120Hz component thrown in." But why call it a transformer explosion when its not? Where would a doctor go calling a blocked artery an aneurysm? Or calling asthma, diabetes? Sure all of them are medical conditions, but their is a clear distinction. "Here's why they say that: They have to call it something their audience (of dummies) can relate to and they settled on 'transf explod'g'." The audience wouldn't be dummies if the media could call things for what they are. People understand "power lines arcing" just as well as an 'exploding electrical giget' "Here's where you're also right: EVERY time I hear media reporting on something *I* know in some depth, they misspeak to some extent and sometimes a great extent. But to the bulk audience, the distinction is immaterial as it wouldn't understand the 'correct' terminology anyway, much less the physics. Worse, from media's perspective, the audience would actually tune away because their ignorance was being exposed. And if there's anything stupid people don't like it's their stupidity exposed." Its not just in depth stuff, its everything. People would not be stupid or afraid if the media did not create an artificial understanding of reality such that people would run away when given the true facts. "Which ironically is the root cause of the stupidity plague. Media being caught in that loop. It wouldn't pay them to be dead on balls accurate. (It's an industry term. My Cousin Vinny.)" Its safe to say even you think the media plays a role in this, correct? But going back to the fridge, I'd like to see solid evidence by those reporting it that the fridge exploded. |
Post# 946410 , Reply# 40   7/2/2017 at 19:45 (2,488 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Post# 946411 , Reply# 41   7/2/2017 at 19:47 (2,488 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Post# 946412 , Reply# 42   7/2/2017 at 19:48 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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"chetlaham asked: "How does an refrigerator "explode"?"
Some refrigerators in other parts of the world use refrigerant R-600a which is actually isobutene. This is not an example of "fake news", it's an example of something you're not aware of." And while you are correct that 600a refrigerators exist, from that fact how can we say this particular fridge had R600a? All those outlets calling it an explosion have nothing to back it up, which is conflicting other outlets saying it was just that the fridge caught fire. "I have personally seen electrical transformers explode. CLICK HERE TO GO TO kenwashesmonday's LINK" Again lol, Show me where I said its impossible for a transformer to explode. No offense to anyone, but this is kind of proving my point about how media influences thinking. |
Post# 946414 , Reply# 43   7/2/2017 at 19:53 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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"I'd like to see proof, too. What does matter is that a lot of people died because of a badly built refrigerator. If and why it exploded are questions to be answered." I agree. Without documented proof and/or an official investigation the reporting is speculation. But IMO, its not just the fridge to blame. The fire should not have spread like that, and while its just siting news reports, I hear that the cladding on the building is also to blame. Its very tragic and I hope answers come soon. Panthera, by chance do you know anything about these Hotpoints? |
Post# 946430 , Reply# 45   7/2/2017 at 21:02 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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In the USA it used to be R12, but went to R134a for refrigerators about 30 years ago. AC units just recently went from R22 to R410a. Commercial freezers used to be R502A and went to R404A and R507A, though the commercial systems is going by memory only so I could have forgotten the correct numbers for the new refrigerants. And while I don't know about 2017, I remember in the 2000s there were food plants around me that used ammonia as a refrigerant.
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Post# 946431 , Reply# 46   7/2/2017 at 21:03 (2,488 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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US refs are still using R134A, most window and central A/C systems are using R401.
Outer shell condensers are not as efficient especially if you want to install your ref in a tight spot, with a shell condenser heating the outside of the appliance is like making the ref operate in a 100F+ room all the time. It is better to get the heat away from the appliance and now that condenser fan motors often draw less than 5 watts it is far more efficient to use a fan. A condenser coil on the back of a ref should not need cleaning more than every 5 years or more unless you have a very dusty house, light dust accumulation has almost no effect on the operation of home refs.
The ref in the London fire did not kill 80 people, the cladding on the building and lack of good exits and lack of sprinkler systems throughout the building were the main cause of the excessive loss of life.
Strong fire codes should be the norm for any country, where I live sprinkler systems have been required in all new homes [ even single family ] apartments and businesses built since 1990 |
Post# 946440 , Reply# 47   7/2/2017 at 21:54 (2,488 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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Sprinklers are required in all new homes in ME. Pex run to sprinklers are alot cheaper than rebuilding your home when a sprinkler could have saved it. My neighbor, the Fire Chief, swears by them but to do it in one of the oldest housing stock in this country, tearing ceilings out just wont work financially. Problem is around here, there are so many volunteer fire departments that nobody wants to dedicate the time to volunteer any more.
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Post# 946445 , Reply# 48   7/2/2017 at 22:18 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Your neighbor would be right. I truly believe fire sprinklers should be in all new homes, but sadly its often amended out of the building codes at the local level. Sprinklers speak for themselves, and contrary to what people say the cost is next to nothing in a new home. You don't need any special plumbing, in most districts you can tap right off the potable water supply if you really wanted to.
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Post# 946446 , Reply# 49   7/2/2017 at 22:22 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 946450 , Reply# 50   7/2/2017 at 23:53 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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@Combo, isn't it R410a for all new units while R401a is simply a retrofit for old R-12 systems?
www.ac-heatingconnect.com/whats-t... Just wondering, its been years since I touched refrigeration so I'm sure my memory may not be exact. |
Post# 946452 , Reply# 51   7/3/2017 at 00:27 (2,488 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I was able to visit friends and relations in Scotland and Ireland frequently until 2014. Many have Hotpoint appliances - they're familiar, they have pleasing designs and, like the old Sears here in the US, there's still a sense of value. Just, from what I've seen, the most played out Hotpoint from the 1970s with just a bit of restoration is going to be a safer, better working appliance than anything put out under that name after 2005.
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Post# 946458 , Reply# 53   7/3/2017 at 02:06 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Oh yes! Newer systems with SF6 breakers and communicating protection relays (ie line differential; permissive over reaching transfer trip; DUTT; ect; ect) can clear in in as little a 4 to 5 cycles in a 60Hz (60 cycle) system.
But with that said yes I am well aware transformers explode and it has been witnessed by many. But if one was to type "transformer explosion" in YouTube 9 out 10 videos that pop up are just lines shorting out. Case in point: Arcing fuse cutout: |
Post# 946460 , Reply# 54   7/3/2017 at 02:21 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 946461 , Reply# 55   7/3/2017 at 02:30 (2,488 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)   |   | |
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"The Hotpoint FF175BP was manufactured between March 2006 and July 2009 and has not previously been recalled. Tests will be carried out to establish whether a product recall is necessary, the government said.
Hotpoint said a total of 64,000 units were made over the three years, adding that the number of appliances in use today would be lower because of normal product obsolescence." The model was made by Indesit under the Hotpoint brand; both are part of Whirlpool, whose UK head office is in Peterborough.A spokeswoman for the trading standards arm of Peterborough city council said it had contacted Whirlpool. “We have been in touch with the company and asked questions but the government is taking the lead on this and would be in charge of any product recall decision,” she said" CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK |
Post# 946462 , Reply# 56   7/3/2017 at 02:38 (2,488 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)   |   | |
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As soon as the brand was identified by fire officials Whirlpool under the Hotpoint brand issued a safety notice asap, and now we await the findings of a judicial inquiry / review / inquest into what really happened.
A sad demise of a great name in the world of appliances, and the ensuing tragedy for all those people involved, our thoughts and prayers are with them all !! CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK This post was last edited 07/03/2017 at 03:21 |
Post# 946493 , Reply# 58   7/3/2017 at 07:16 (2,488 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Is unnecessary. First, for those of us working in the fields of or training/education in the natural sciences (the real sciences as opposed to the social sciences) the term 'explosion' simply means: "an expansion in which energy is transmitted outward as a shock wave".
Now that's really putting it simply but it certainly encompasses what I've seen left over after hooking up an electrolytic capacitor the wrong way. So, yeah - let's stop splitting hairs. |
Post# 946506 , Reply# 59   7/3/2017 at 09:00 (2,488 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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I hear you, switches are a different beast used only for isolation under no load. Fortunately the circuit breakers used in utility substations can safely interrupt high levels of fault current (see typical ratings here):
www.hitachi-tds.com/products/SF6_... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_hex... |