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Thread Number: 71991
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Has there been any solution to spider-arm corrosion? |
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| Post# 952273 , Reply# 1 8/9/2017 at 05:06 (2,441 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.) | ||
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3 years is criminal. Quality is awful these days. As far as I know, there was only one machine which had coated spiders, the early 1970s UK Hotpoint 1600. Thread Number: 70689 | ||
Post# 952274 , Reply# 2 8/9/2017 at 05:14 (2,441 days old) by askolover  (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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| Post# 952280 , Reply# 3 8/9/2017 at 06:04 (2,441 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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@ Rolls_rapide... I just don't get how they've been able to get away with it for this long. Can't believe they haven't been sued black and blue! | ||
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Post# 952318 , Reply# 5 8/9/2017 at 11:39 (2,441 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Broken Spiders On FL washers If you have a spider failure in the the first 15-25 years of use it is the users fault, You are using TOO LITTLE detergent, TOO COLD wash water, AND you are not using LCB often enough..............
In addition the door should be left ajar, and the dispenser drawer should be left at least 1/2 way open between uses.
If a FLW ever develops an odor you are using it improperly and you have a greater risk of serious failures.
This advice is based on 40 years of working with over 60,000 customers on their home appliances.
John L. | ||
| Post# 952341 , Reply# 7 8/9/2017 at 14:31 (2,441 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
this has always been interesting over the years
Some spiders fail soon, some don't. Mine is going on 13 yrs old. All I can say is, I've always used warm/hot (very occasionally cold) - powdered detergent, a little fab softener, chlorine bleach in white loads.....left door cracked and dispenser door pulled out when not in use. Most of the time I don't do HUGE loads, but there have been many times that I've filled it to capacity (while not overloading)
About every 3 months I get rubber gloves, coffeemaker hot water and a rag and clean the inside of the boot..but there has never been any mold or smell even when not cleaned because it's allowed to dry out really well between washes. Years ago, when I first started hearing about this and learning that almost ALL FL washers have aluminum spiders (including mine) I've been waiting for mine to fall apart. But over time, since that has NOT happened - I do wonder if it's the way people do laundry and store their machine. I don't know, I guess water quality could factor in too. I have hard water where I live. | ||
| Post# 952357 , Reply# 8 8/9/2017 at 16:14 (2,441 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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Appreciate your input guys! So i understand we're exactly where we were 10 years ago... No one knows for certain why they fail, just theories. Anyone ever tried coating the spider, or treating it? I've seen a couple of posts but they never reported back. | ||
| Post# 952402 , Reply# 9 8/9/2017 at 21:07 (2,441 days old) by washerdude (Canada ) | ||
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Out of curiosity Whats the model number for your washer? Daewoo seems to be made by either LG or Samsung in America. | ||
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Post# 952500 , Reply# 10 8/10/2017 at 10:57 (2,440 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Broken Spiders On FL Washers
This issue is NOT a matter of theory, we have extensive experience with this issue and we have seen hundreds of machines and know how they have been used, we have often taken FL washers apart that are more tan a decade old and they have about zero corrosion on the spider.
Keep in mind that every manufacturer tests their machines to simulate more than a decade of use and the spiders NEVER fail when machines are used in a proper intelligent way. Also keep in mind that machines that get smelly and develop slimy build-ups are not getting clothing clean, no manufacturer would test a washer without using proper washing procedures, doing so would be like testing cars with the wrong fuel, oil antifreeze no air in the tires etc. PS painting a coating on the spiders may make thing worse, such coatings always develop small cracks etc and will actually keep the metal wet and may make corrosion issues worse. Back when aluminum pumps were still used in washers several manufactures tried coating the bare metal and the pumps still failed from corrosion as the coating usually started to fail pretty quickly. John L. | ||
| Post# 952595 , Reply# 11 8/11/2017 at 12:37 (2,439 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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This issue is NOT a matter of theory Thanks for your input John L. Well, mine failed despite doing everything right. It never smelled. Always used powder detergent, never used beach and always kept the door open. | ||
| Post# 952600 , Reply# 12 8/11/2017 at 13:39 (2,439 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
best solution i can think of
the best solution i can think of is have it check by a appliance repair service second have you considered buying a vintage washer that you can use on backup because sadly most tech these days will push you to buy a new machine but i would try option 1 and maybe buy a used washer off craiglist that you can store and hook up as a backup if main washer needs repair here a link incase you went to consider the option of a backup machine but like i said the other washer you would buy off craiglist would be a backup until your main washer is fix than when not needed you can store it in your garage and will have it in case your main washer needs a repair again.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK on Los Angeles Craigslist | ||
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Post# 952602 , Reply# 13 8/11/2017 at 13:45 (2,439 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 John said that using chlorine bleach on a regular basis will contribute to maintaining the integrity of the spider, not reduce it. My sister was given a Samsung frontloader, 5 years old, by friends who destroyed it by 1) too much cold-water washing, 2) never using the machine's cleaning cycle (which heats to 130°F), SEVERE overdosing of liquid fabric softener, and presumably never chlorine bleach. The spider cracked during spin, the drum tore a gash in the front of the tub. I repaired it for $256 in parts. Upon disassembly I found everything to be coated in waxy residue with a STRONG odor of softener and the spider disintegrating into gravel. A friend has a 1999 Neptune (2nd generation model MAH4000). The drum bearings were going bad at 10+ years and he planned to have me repair it at some point ... then the boot got torn which ensued a leak so the repair got accelerated. I found the spider to be essentially pristine. He *never* used softener and rarely washed in cold water. I don't know his detergent habits in historical detail but it's overdosed if anything ... the machine was being used by ranch hands at the house on the family's farmland. | ||
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Post# 952606 , Reply# 14 8/11/2017 at 14:30 (2,439 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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IMHO using chlorine bleach or not is not the key issue here. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many vintage washing machines in Europe. Europeans don't use bleach in their frontloaders. The most important thing to me seems that you wash in a decent way with enough detergent on a high enough temperatures (our boil washes may compensate for not using chlorine bleach).
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| Post# 952607 , Reply# 15 8/11/2017 at 14:43 (2,439 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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bleach I hear you. So i am understanding that the reason it failed in just 3 years is because i did not occasionally use bleach. Wow! | ||
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Post# 952608 , Reply# 16 8/11/2017 at 14:49 (2,439 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 952636 , Reply# 17 8/11/2017 at 22:27 (2,439 days old) by Kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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As long as no biofilm builds up on the spider and the door is left open to keep moisture down the spider should outlast the rest of the machine.
Hot washes, bleach, and using different detergents all go a long way towards keeping the machine clean inside. With proper usage the machine will be fine and not develop any off odors too. This is why many people have success with front loaders but others have issues, usage. | ||
| Post# 952848 , Reply# 18 8/14/2017 at 07:12 (2,436 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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Im curious...how dos using too little detergent effect the spider arm? | ||
| Post# 952852 , Reply# 20 8/14/2017 at 07:55 (2,436 days old) by MrAlex (London, UK) | ||
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| Post# 952853 , Reply# 21 8/14/2017 at 08:15 (2,436 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.) | ||
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It is, but Miele still recommends powder in the maintenance wash! Another member here also commented upon that fact. | ||
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Post# 952869 , Reply# 22 8/14/2017 at 11:48 (2,436 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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too little detergent
Use of insufficient (or poor quality) detergent tends to allow the accumulation of biofilm on the interior surfaces of the machine. The biofilm remains moist accelerating the corrosion of the aluminum. If the aluminum were clean and dry it wouldn't corrode. Seems as though every failed spider seen is caked with grunge.
Hot washes, adequate detergent, light use of fabric softeners and leaving the door open will insure the washer stays clean and dry and will extend the life of the spider. Using different detergents on a frequent basis seems to help with keeping the machine clean also as does using powdered detergents. | ||
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Post# 953109 , Reply# 24 8/16/2017 at 15:34 (2,434 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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A friend fosters rescue dogs. Has 23 to 24 in the "pack" ... some are residents, some fosters. That doesn't include resident cats. She washes a LOT of critter bedding, uses a lot of chlorine bleach. She has a 2003 (per the serial number) Kenmore HE3 frontloader. The only repair for the duration (as far as I'm aware) is pump replacement several years ago, done by me. There also was no mold when I checked the tub boot and pump/sump trap. | ||
| Post# 957487 , Reply# 25 9/14/2017 at 07:30 (2,405 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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:( Look at all the hiding places! You guys still think i don't need to treat it? | ||
| Post# 957488 , Reply# 26 9/14/2017 at 07:45 (2,405 days old) by iej (.... ) | ||
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A good boil wash full of towels and peroxide laden detergent gets done in my Miele W1 once a week. No way any bugs or fabric softener gunge survive that. | ||
| Post# 957620 , Reply# 27 9/15/2017 at 05:32 (2,404 days old) by saz1 (LA) | ||
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Too little detergent combo52 says too little detergent will cause the spider arm to fail.... How, exactly? I understand from here that soap left to sit on the spider arm is not good. So logically, the less soap there is, the better...no? How is more soap better? | ||
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Post# 957622 , Reply# 28 9/15/2017 at 05:50 (2,404 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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It's not soap that is left behind on the spider but dirt and calcium build up. If you don't use enough detergent, the dirt in the wash water doesn't get dissolved well enough, so it stays behind. So use enough detergent and wash on high enough temperatures and the risk of spider problems will be smaller.
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| Post# 996748 , Reply# 29 6/10/2018 at 14:01 (2,136 days old) by russinvb (Virginia Beach) | ||
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Looking for spider for 9 year old Miele W4800 Does anyone know of a reliable source for Miele parts? I'm looking for a new spider for 9 year old Miele W4800. Not much left of the old one... | ||
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Post# 996771 , Reply# 30 6/10/2018 at 18:20 (2,136 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Open a new thread Open a new thread, hijacking other threads isn't well received around here. But to make matters quick: Google, or Miele, or a second W48xx. | ||
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Post# 1057189 , Reply# 32 1/10/2020 at 21:14 (1,557 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Corrosion between SS and Aluminum- Zinc Interestingly the corrosion and failures never occur where the two different metals actually touch. For the most part I think the washer manufactures seem to know what they are doing.
Yes there are a number of examples of washers having too thin a spider and failures were much more common on these machines.
FD FL small door models 1998-2011 Early WP Duet Sport models Miele 27" full sized washers Most Samsung 24&27" wide machines.
But as I mentioned before we have never seen a spider failure on a FL washer where LCB, Lots of decent detergent and hot water is used on a regular basis.
They also never seem to fail when the washers are used in a commercial setting where lots of different people are using them with lots of different laundry additives, temperatures and bleach etc.
John L. | ||
| Post# 1057203 , Reply# 33 1/11/2020 at 00:54 (1,557 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago) | ||
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Post# 1057207 , Reply# 34 1/11/2020 at 01:02 (1,557 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI) |
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I've torn apart and replaced bearings in several Duets and after years of use they show no damage to the spider. But I do use hot water and such, can't recall the last wash I did in cold. My gut feeling is it's a combination of cold water, too much detergent and not cleaning the machine that leads to failure. | ||
| Post# 1057227 , Reply# 35 1/11/2020 at 07:14 (1,556 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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I also wonder
could it be hard water vs soft water too? I agree that LCB OR very hot water/good detergents seem to minimize it. Over the years on Youtube of people taking apart machines showing the spider corrosion - the outer tub is always caked in brown sludge.....Like the machine was overloaded, too much or too little of something was used and it just congealed into a solid funk on the outer drum. It's like this in ALL of the videos of seen of people tearing their machine apart because of spider corrosion.
I had always heard the dissimilar metals would eventually cause corrosion......but that has NOT happened with many machines, including my Duet (almost 15 years old) | ||
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Post# 1057230 , Reply# 36 1/11/2020 at 07:52 (1,556 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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I Have Never Seen A Washer harmed By Too Much Detergent | ||
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Post# 1057234 , Reply# 37 1/11/2020 at 08:14 (1,556 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Once again: For it to be galvanic corrosion there has to be a potential difference. That can not ocour if the metal in question is conductivley connected. And if you ask me, washer tub and spider are very much connected. | ||
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Post# 1057275 , Reply# 41 1/11/2020 at 16:36 (1,556 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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common sense would tell anyone.....if its a matter of something like the two metals together....
then every single machine made would have the same issues..... I have several Neptunes....never seen or even heard of a corrosion issue with the spiders....still wonder too, why dont mine have bearing/seal failures? I also have a few FD round door units....I have heard of spider issues....but have to wonder, why dont mine have those issues?... is it the environmental conditions?...water hardness?....detergent/bleach/softener?...and yet one factor that no one wants to consider, could it be operator error? | ||
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Post# 1057512 , Reply# 43 1/13/2020 at 21:19 (1,554 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.) |
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6600+ views? Can it be true?
Please save the spiders in your washer. Leave the door and detergent drawer open when not in use so your spider can dry out and breath. Don't over fill. Don't use so much detergent that there is excess sudsing. It's pretty simple and your washer won't weave a nasty web of disappointment. | ||
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Post# 1057538 , Reply# 44 1/14/2020 at 07:46 (1,553 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Spider Corrosion Too little detergent is a major reason for the gunk buildup including fabric softener and corrosion, plenty of detergent does not allow FS and gunk to buildup, it is almost impossible to use so much detergent as to cause harm to any washers components unless suds are overflowing inside the cabinet.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1057554 , Reply# 46 1/14/2020 at 10:53 (1,553 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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I`m with John, there is no way using too much detergent could lead to a build up that harms the washer. Too little detergent on the other hand can lead to a build up of FS, body oils and so on which contributes to a moist environment and thus accelerates spider corrosion.
I think Whirlpool`s advice to use little and only low sudsing detergent to prevent the growth of mold only indicates a poor washer design where dirt laden suds can reach parts of the suds container where rinse water doesn`t get to. Just think of a poorly designed plastic outer tub which is reinforced with nicks and crannies on the inside. As long as rinse water can reach all parts there can not be a build up from too much detergent or high sudsing IMO. | ||
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Post# 1057558 , Reply# 47 1/14/2020 at 13:09 (1,553 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 1057566 , Reply# 48 1/14/2020 at 14:20 (1,553 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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I don`t think that much water sprays the back panel of a suds container in a modern FL where the rinse spins either accelerate very slowly or in several little bursts to prevent suds locks.
If it would get sprayed you`d also see water running down the door glass at the start of a spin, but there are very few if any FLs that still do this these days. Maybe there are still a few commercial ones but that`s not the point. I could also imagine that some spiders have better scooping and splashing action by design than others to keep themselves clean even in the lowest water levels. But there is no way to keep a back panel clean if it`s strutted on the inside. At least not if the suds level is higher than the rinse water level which is a common occurrence. | ||
| Post# 1059419 , Reply# 50 2/2/2020 at 05:27 (1,534 days old) by iej (.... ) | ||
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Why are they aluminium anyway? Doesn’t seem like it would be difficult, especially for companies like a Miele, who are producing almost money no object machines, to just use quality stainless steel spiders instead. | ||
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Post# 1059420 , Reply# 51 2/2/2020 at 05:51 (1,534 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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| Post# 1059431 , Reply# 52 2/2/2020 at 08:54 (1,534 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD) | ||
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I have seen some Miele spiders that were either cast iron or welded steel.I just junked a very grubby Midea GE from 2011 and it's bare cast aluminum spider was in almost perfect shape...(went into spares stash) So many varibles involved in the spider corrosion problem... :) | ||
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Post# 1059437 , Reply# 53 2/2/2020 at 10:38 (1,534 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Spider Corrosion Hi Brendan, What did the washer look like overall, do you have any idea how it was used and why there was so little spider corrosion?
About 10 years ago we sold a FD small door commercial version of the popular FD FL washer that was faros for broken spiders and seal problems.
Well they beat the machine to death doing a minimum of ten loads a day 7 days a week [ I could not begin to guess how many gallons of bleach was poured in that machine, I know they buy 20 gallons at a time ]. and the cabinet was failing and coming apart at the punch welds. We retired it when the motor board failed for at least the 2nd time. When we pulled it out I took it apart and the spider was about perfect, it is now in another FD washer somewhere that we rebuilt.
John | ||
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Post# 1059439 , Reply# 54 2/2/2020 at 11:03 (1,534 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Corrosion
John as an engineer repaire can you gauge if the iron content quality of the water (or well water) links into any of this excess corrosion ?? and as well as factoring in cold wash with not enough detergents etc ?
Ive only ever seen one destroyed rotting spider and that was last year, the lads picked up a Hoover Newave washer from the early 90`s, it had been used in an extremely hard water area, the lady used Persil non bio powder lots of hot washes, the heater had hardly any scale but the spider had just crumbled after drying out from months of no use...this was the result !! | ||
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Post# 1155429 , Reply# 57 7/28/2022 at 21:18 (627 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Corroded aluminum parts in washing machines
The main reason spiders etc. corrode is they get a gunky buildup on them that keeps them wet even if you leave the door open they still corrode.
Of the several front loaders that I have used in the hundreds that I have worked on it’s easy to see which ones are going to corrode. In my 17-year-old Speed Queen front loader I have always washed in hot water used bleach and at least one and five loads and use lots of detergent don’t skimp on detergent. I use fabric softener at least half of the loads. I took the machine apart the other year just to see what it look like the spider it looks like new zero corrosion I should’ve taken pictures. I’m curious on your LG washer was the tub the boot etc. completely clean or was there some buildup when you put the spider and bearings in it. I have never even so much is wiped off the door boot in my 17-year-old washer. John. L | ||
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Post# 1155450 , Reply# 58 7/29/2022 at 00:06 (627 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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John, you should get pics of your machine and post them with stated detergent measurements (not vaguely as “plenty”) to a servicer discussion board that I occasionally peruse where some techs warn to use no more than 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon as maximum detergent dosage for avoiding “soap scum” and save the drum spider from corrosion.
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Post# 1155465 , Reply# 59 7/29/2022 at 07:35 (626 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Reply # 58 Hi Glenn, You are correct I should document this better, I hear the same thing all the time from salesman other techs all the time,
Only Use A Tablespoon Of Detergent To Stop Detergent Build Up, LOL
The level of mechanical and scientific intelligence in this country is very lacking in the world is amazing.
Of course there is no such thing as soap and detergent build-up at all, there is mineral build-up but this is caused by a lack of good detergent, hard water etc.
In general we advise customers to use the full recommended amount of detergent if they have average water conditions, if you have a water softener or naturally soft water you can use a lo less.
Many people don't realize if you want to wash in cold water 40-70F you need to use almost twice as much detergent as you do in 100-120F wash temperatures to get the same cleaning results.
John L. | ||
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