Thread Number: 72030  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
What type of motor do these use?
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Post# 952660   8/12/2017 at 12:37 by chetlaham (United States)        

Do these use an induction, synchronous, inverter or DC motor? I can't figure it out, but I am going to be honest with everyone here. After the "cake" thread I am starting to get this urge to play with one of these:

www.homedepot.com/p/Whirlpool-24-...


I figure now that the technology was had several years to mature and that many engineering changes and models latter have produced a bug free product.

Here is the motor that the internet gives:


www.repairclinic.com/Part...


Also, does anyone know of the wash and rinse temperature on Heavy + High temp?







Post# 952662 , Reply# 1   8/12/2017 at 13:19 by henene4 (Germany)        
WOW

According to the manual, Heavy\High Temp uses almost 40l/10gal and only runs ~150min.

That shoud be a single speed machine, so nothing fancy. So no DC or inverter I'd say.


Post# 952664 , Reply# 2   8/12/2017 at 13:28 by chetlaham (United States)        
10 gallons

Now thats my type of machine :)

So you would say just a synchronous AC motor? I ask because at one point BOL Frigidaire machines had a giant circuit board in the motor.


Post# 952668 , Reply# 3   8/12/2017 at 14:52 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
That is appears to be an alternating current magnetic pump. Basically a slightly bigger version of the typical magnetic drain pumps fitted to every make and model under the sun.

Post# 952669 , Reply# 4   8/12/2017 at 15:33 by henene4 (Germany)        
Boards on motors

True inverters usually require some form of advanced cooling, usually a heat sink. AC to DC rectifiers do not, however they need some form of switching or the good old brushed commutator system, which is way chunkiert than that pump. So yeah, some for of induction or more likely a synchronus motor (wich basicly is what most drain pumps are).

Post# 952679 , Reply# 5   8/12/2017 at 17:10 by chetlaham (United States)        

So its just coils of wire then? I can dig that :)


What about the high end Whirlpools? Aren't those motors inverter or something? The pump looks different on those.


Post# 952680 , Reply# 6   8/12/2017 at 17:16 by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

looks like a synchronous motor with bi-directional pump.I saw one synchronous dishwasher main pump,~1998 vintage,that had a circuit board built in to make the motor run the same direction every time-allowing a more efficient directional pump to be used.

Post# 952682 , Reply# 7   8/12/2017 at 17:31 by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        
HD reviews aren't great

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My mother has this d/w in her new apartment. A bit noisy, no rinse-aid dispenser and marginal cleaning. If you're a pre-rinser and have a stack of dish towels handy, this is your machine.

Post# 952683 , Reply# 8   8/12/2017 at 18:32 by cuffs054 (GA)        

If I'm going to spend $150+ and go through having to pull the whole mess out, l'm just going to bite the bullet and replace the machine.


Post# 952694 , Reply# 9   8/12/2017 at 22:57 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Pull The Whole Mess Out?

combo52's profile picture

These and all WP DWs can have the motor removed and replaced without removing the DW from the installed position.


Post# 952709 , Reply# 10   8/13/2017 at 06:46 by chetlaham (United States)        
A better make

Is there a better make in terms of cleanability? My understanding is that they all use the same mechanism. I can live without rinse-aid. My rinse-aid dispenser at home is still empty lol, never been filled.

Post# 952710 , Reply# 11   8/13/2017 at 06:49 by chetlaham (United States)        

@cfz2882: Never new such a motor existed having a board to force only one direction. Anyone know if this motor is such? Better yet, Combo, do you have any replaced (to be scraped) motors lying around? I'm really curious how these new DW work.

Post# 952721 , Reply# 12   8/13/2017 at 09:11 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Main Motors in WP Built DWs Since 2000

combo52's profile picture

WP has used more than a 1/2 dozen different main motors and another 1/2 dozen different drain pumps as well in their DWs in the last 17 years or so.

 

WP has generally built the best cleaning, best drying DWs over the last 50 years or more, and by far about the most easy to repair 99% of the time without having to remove the machine from its installed position.

 

Hi Chet, yes we have lots of motors lying around that fit these newer DWs, if you are ever interested you are very welcome to visit and go through them and even take some home. The motors WP is using seem to be quite reliable and we have little demand for them as used motors so a lot of them just go in the recycling bin unlike the crappy brush type motors that FD have used for the last decade + and now GE seems to be using these low durability in their newer DWs as well.

 

John L.


Post# 952726 , Reply# 13   8/13/2017 at 10:19 by chetlaham (United States)        

Thanks Combo, that means a lot to me :) You are very generous. I might order one or two just to take apart- will see.

I do agree with you about repair. It seems that the most easy to repair by far of any machine be it dryer, washer, DW or range is hands down WP. Their newer vertical modular washer is by far the easiest thing to fix- easier then small appliances and computers if you ask me. Light weight and few sharp edges to.

If WP is using synchronous motors then I think we have a winner. A brush motor does not belong in a DW IMHO. And for the price a BOL whirlpool is giving you 3x more in all categories including longevity.

Drying- this is a biggy for me. I do not use rinse agent, so I rely entirely on what the machine can do. I've had Whirlpool machines that dried very well with and those that needed towels at the end of the dry cycle. If I was to buy a Whirlpool made machine, which would you recommend from drying aspect?


Post# 952763 , Reply# 14   8/13/2017 at 14:15 by henene4 (Germany)        
Drying

The best thing I found for drying is just popping it open after a cycle and to wait a few hours. Oh, and it has a heated dry, so that should help, right?

Post# 952821 , Reply# 15   8/14/2017 at 00:32 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I wouldn't think Whirlpool would be using a Synchronous motor in a dishwasher--Synchronous motors I know of are PRECISION "instruments" for maintaining a precise speed-synchronized to the frequency of the power line feeding it.Thus such a motor is VERY expensive in that size-more likely its an induction motor.The permanent magnet synchronous motor made the small ones possible-but still expensive-found them in record turntables,Hammond organ tone wheel drives,tape recorder capstan drives.The largest one I encountered was for the capstan drive in an Ampex Quad VTR.The motor was driven by a tubed or solid state power amplifier driven by the TV station sync generator.In physical size it is as big as a washer or dishwasher motor.The amp that drove it put out like 700W!

Post# 952864 , Reply# 16   8/14/2017 at 10:19 by henene4 (Germany)        

Synchronous motors are not necessarily expensive. An induction motor running directly from the mains behaves pretty much like a synchronus motor. If you want to speed controll a synchronus motor, you'd need to modify the frequency of your supply, which would require a inverter, which makes it more expensive.

A synchronus motor has permanent magnets on the rotor, the rotation speed is affected by the frequency of the supply. So it's just windings, the alternation of the field is done by mains frequency. Or, for variable speed applications, an inverter alternates the frequency of the incomming supply to match the speed desired.

An induction motor uses inductive effects to create a current in the rotor windings to create the rotors magnetic field. Thus, just like a synchronus motor, it has a synhronus speed.



Post# 952933 , Reply# 17   8/14/2017 at 20:34 by chetlaham (United States)        
Magnet vs Induction

Why would Whirlpool choose an permanent magnet motor over an induction motor?

Post# 952940 , Reply# 18   8/14/2017 at 21:22 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
DW Pump Motors

combo52's profile picture

Permanent magnet motors cost more to build but use far less power.


Post# 952944 , Reply# 19   8/14/2017 at 22:00 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Induction motors are asynchronous motors -- they run *close* to the speed they'd run if they were *synchronous* motors, but not the same.

For example, a 2-pole synchronous motor runs at precisely 3600 rpm at 60 Hz. A 4-pole sync motor runs at 1800 rpm.

Contrast that with 3450 rpm and 1725 rpm, which are (common) speeds under load for a 2-pole asynchronous (induction) motor and a 4-pole one.

Synchronous motors (particularly vey large [over 10HP] ones) usually cannot self start, particularly under load -- several different ways have been used over the years, like disconnecting the load with clutches, using an auxiliary starter motor, or, more recently, building a self-starting motor (typically induction) that disconnects as the speed gets near synchronous speed and turns the motor into a synchronous motor.

Induction motors are asynchronous because they depend on having a spinning magnetic field to generate the current in the rotor.

There isn't a very good reason to use a synchronous motor, which costs more (usually) to build than other kinds if you are not making use of the main advantage of such motors, which is very precise speed. If you just need variable speeds, there are many cheaper ways to achieve it.




Post# 952956 , Reply# 20   8/15/2017 at 00:20 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Self start synchronous motors use auxillary windings on the rotor to make it start like an induction motor.As it reaches 75% speed-the field current is applied and then the motor runs as a synchronous one.Small synchronous motors are expensive-those below 10 hp-esp those under 1hp.They are used where the speed is critical.Induction motors won't maintain speed when used for purposes where speed is critical.Induction motors won't reach synchronous speed because of the magnetic "slip" in their design.Yes,older design synchronous motors used "pony motors" for starting.

Post# 952975 , Reply# 21   8/15/2017 at 06:35 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Another addition for LARGE Synchronous motors-yes they are more efficient than induction and have greater breakdown torque.A bonus-they can be used as a power factor correction device-adjust the DC to overexcite the rotating field and you have a variable power factor correction device.If you see a large cylindrical horizontal object at a substation-it is an enclosed synchronous motor that the power company can start and adjust if the power factor goes out of tolerance.The motor does not drive a mechanical load.It is enclosed in a hydrogen,nitrogen,or SF6 filled container.Modern synchronous motors are brushless-they use a rotating secondary transformer winding on the rotor along with a rotating rectifier assembly.The primary is stationary.This same system is used with synchronous power generators-the one we have works this way.Cat 3816.

Post# 953022 , Reply# 22   8/15/2017 at 14:22 by chetlaham (United States)        

All excellent and very educational replies! :)

Spot on about induction motors never being truly synchronous due to the slip and need for a spinning field to generate a counter field in the rotor. Immediately reminded me of this video:







One advantage to Whirlpool's motors (at least the DW drain pumps) is that they appear to not have any type of rotor seal, ie the rotor is housed in water and the stator slips over the plastic housing.


Post# 953687 , Reply# 23   8/20/2017 at 11:54 by chetlaham (United States)        
Well

I knew it was to good to be true :( But just as fascinated. Seems like this motor has an entire algorithm to determine the speed based on load, and it seems to give up without load.







Post# 953693 , Reply# 24   8/20/2017 at 12:40 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Amusing Video

combo52's profile picture

But this guy should stick to wood working, he made so many incorrect assumptions about how this motor works and why that I won't even start to address them, in the end all he really manged to do was destroy a good DW.

 

Thanks for posting Chet, it was amusing to watch while I ate lunch.


Post# 953703 , Reply# 25   8/20/2017 at 13:33 by chetlaham (United States)        
How it works

I know it might not seem worth it, but can you explain them at least? I am even more clueless as the guy lol. Especially the function of the circuit board.

I do agree about the DW though, that looked like a really good model, and at 1 year old he would have had a new DW possibly for pennies on the dollar.


Post# 953708 , Reply# 26   8/20/2017 at 15:11 by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

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With all his incorrect statements (which I don't know, tell us John!) at least he seems to have a very efficient blower motor until the bearings roast!

Post# 953760 , Reply# 27   8/21/2017 at 00:59 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Interesting-----WHY go thru all of that trouble when inexpensive blowers are already available?Yes,he should stick to woodworking--incidently its UNSAFE to have the child roaming around your shop while you are working!To many ways for the kid to get hurt on all of the sharp equipment in a woodshop!How are you going to keep an eye on the little girl while you work?The motor from the DW doesn't work like the synchronous motors I have dealt with.

Post# 953783 , Reply# 28   8/21/2017 at 07:11 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Amusing Video

combo52's profile picture

Hi Rex, yes indeed why go through all that trouble to build a blower, I hope he has a sprinkler system in that work shop, these DW pump motors are not continuous duty they will overheat and hopefully shut off, if not and a plastic motor lubricated with oil attached to a wooden fan assembly, well lets just say it would be a waste of time to apply for UL approval label, LOL.

 

It was a fun video to watch and it is fun to watch the creative spirit at work, but I don't think I would bother taking a video of a project like this and putting it on line. Now I will admit that when I was 12 or 13 I built a wooden refrigerator using the sealed refrigeration from a 50s Westinghouse ref, I think I realized after I got it all framed together that it was a silly idea and did not complete it.

 

As Rex mentioned there are so many good blowers that can be had for about nothing, I would take one out of a high end WP or maybe a Samsung Dryer that has a variable speed blower with a separate motor, these move a lot of air and are designed to work with flammable lint so they should be well suited for sawdust.


Post# 953858 , Reply# 29   8/21/2017 at 13:30 by chetlaham (United States)        
Control board

Is the control board to stop the motor with no water or to achieve direction?

Post# 953880 , Reply# 30   8/21/2017 at 15:44 by henene4 (Germany)        

Probably current sensing for some form of load sensing.

Post# 953904 , Reply# 31   8/21/2017 at 19:12 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture

Control board is to start motor and keep it running with the least amount of power consumption, and to make it run in the correct direction.


Post# 953945 , Reply# 32   8/22/2017 at 00:26 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I obtained a good blower for nothing when a TV station replaced their RCA transmitter with a new one. I repaired the old one they scrapped-spent a lot of time on it.So--when it was replaced they let me salvage stuff from it.Got some of the tubes-I collect transmitting tubes.Then I got the blower that cooled the diplexer assembly-this combines the outputs of the sound transmitter with the visual one-this was an analog Tx.The blower is a heavy cast iron fancase-1/3 hp 120/240V motor.The fan is cast aluminum.I have it in my goodies pile with thpoughts of using it as a dust collector fan.Price---FREE!
I wonder and hope this man only runs his homemade fan only when he is in the shop.Yes,don't think that plastic motor will last long with plastic on plastic with no water "lubrication".Oil can soften the plastic or even dissolve it!Same with grease-you could try silicone grease.Oh on that transmitter-the double sided blower-two fans and fancases on one motor-this cooled the visual driver and PA was a 480V 3ph motor at 7Hp.Left it because I couldn't use it.The poor transmitter looked kinda sad on the curb-dumpted like an old washer or dishwasher.Later scrappers took the rest.Was purchased in the 80's.


Post# 954012 , Reply# 33   8/22/2017 at 10:02 by johnb300m (Chicago)        
pond pumps indeed.........

johnb300m's profile picture
Upon thinking about this more, and watching that video.......
I hope many on here go watch that video a 2nd time, maybe three times.

I can't count how many times people were arguing in threads about when these little "puny pond pumps" were put in dishwashers, and everyone was crowing about cheap and weak they were.

Did you see the video?
That thing was running at full 3400-3600 rpm whether unloaded or very heavily loaded with a WOOD impeller pushing 6in dia.
That's a ton of drag for a little 55w motor.
And in some instances it was overdrawing to maintain speed.
The torque on that thing must be pretty good.
That's how you get your good water pressure from a dinky "pond pump."


Post# 954096 , Reply# 34   8/23/2017 at 01:59 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The "pond Pump" is now delivering air suction and pressure now.Would like to see some CFM and air pressure readings on that repurposed dishwasher motor now a blower motor.Yes,guess for 55W its doing pretty good.Just wait until the motor gets full of sanding dust and sawdust!




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