Thread Number: 7236
Whirlpool Combo
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Post# 142564   7/15/2006 at 15:43 (6,466 days old) by tumbler ()        

I watched the spin video of the Whirlpool Combo (in the Cyber-Museum); doesn't seem that the spin speed is much over 200 r.p.m. I've heard that the G.E. combos were like that as well. Is this true? If so, it must have taken forever to dry the sopping-wet clothes! The first washer I "practiced" working on was a Westinghouse "Laundromat" round-style machine which I'm guessing was from around 1940; it also had a slow spin, no more than about 250-300 r.p.m., and I once had a Bendix which spun at about 300. These machines had a transmission to get the tumble and spin speeds. The first machine I remember having a decent spin speed was a Westinghouse front-loader circa mid-60's, which used a system of multiple belts rather than a tranny, and spun at about 580 r.p.m. What kind of drive system did the Whirlpool have? What about the G.E., Maytag and Kenmore front-loaders?




Post# 142604 , Reply# 1   7/15/2006 at 17:55 (6,466 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Hello John, The early Bendix bolt down machines did have a fairly slow spin. The speed change was achieved with a transmission. By the time the first Whirlpool combos, the almost identical Kenmores, and the GE, Westinghouse, Norge, Maytag & Easy combos were manufactured, they were prevented from using any sort of suspension system for the mechanism of the combo by the patents that Bendix/AVCO had taken out on the Duomatic washer-dryer combination. Since these later combos had no way of dealing with the dynamic forces that would be generated by higher speed water extraction, they could only spin at slow speeds and, often, unbalanced loads prevented the machines from even reaching that speed. Many of the combos used a speed-changing device called a variable sheave pulley. When the speed was to be increased for spin, a small electric motor was activated which wound a chain around this motor's shaft. The chain was connected to one end of a lever. Raising this lever caused the two halves of the variable sheave pulley to ride closer together which made the drive belt travel over a larger groove, increasing the speed of the drum drive belt. When the machine came out of the spin, you could hear the little motor unwind. Yes, they were poor at water extraction and the drying times were long and often at quite high temperatures, especially in the condenser drying combos. The condenser drying systems had another handicap in areas where summer temperatures heated the cold water supply to almost bath water temperatures since the warmer water was much less effective for condensing the steam. Even in some of the combos that used a vented drying system, the compromises necessary when combining washing and drying in a single machine resulted in air patterns through the cylinder and the tumbling laundry which were sometimes not optimally effective.

Post# 142651 , Reply# 2   7/15/2006 at 22:02 (6,466 days old) by tumbler ()        
Spin speeds

I didn't realize that Bendix had a lock on the suspension system patent. My Westinghouse Laundromat (the mid-60's one) had suspension-I guess that by then the issue had been resolved. It also had one belt which drove a "jackshaft" pulley, with another belt to the drum pulley which drove the drum through an overrunning ("sprag") clutch; another belt, made of friction-proof material, drove the drum directly from a variable sheave pulley whose sheave was operated by a solenoid; a loud "clap" announced the beginning of the spin cycle. During the tumble cycles, the spin belt ran slack due to the pulley halves being relaxed. Somewhat complicated and loud, but it did produce a better extraction. Recently I repaired an old Dexter commercial machine which used a Bendix-style transmission (made, I believe, by Stuart Warner). Unlike the Bendix, however, this one had two solenoids-one provided a "slow" spin speed for the in-between spins, and the second provided a faster final spin (though it, like the Bendix, was about 300 r.p.m.). As much as I love the old machines, I must say that I appreciate the 1250 r.p.m. spin on my Duet! Interesting how the complexity of gearing and belting has been replaced by the complexity of microprocessors and variable-frequency inverters.

Post# 142655 , Reply# 3   7/15/2006 at 22:46 (6,466 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Tumble washers were not affected by the Duomatic's patents, only combos.

Post# 142688 , Reply# 4   7/16/2006 at 00:45 (6,466 days old) by trok_99 ()        
Multiple Speeds, Commercial Laundry. Programming

MILNOR commercial washer/extractors today, use a single motor and an inverter to achieve multiple and variable speeds.

Before inverters, Larger Milnors (above 50 lb capacity) used a seperate motor for each speed, tied together with a helical drive gear box. A standard machine would come with 3 motors, a wash motor, a distribution (drain speed) motor and an extract motor. A 4th motor could be added at an extra cost for a low speed extract.

Milnor always used continuous duty, single speed motors so that the machine could perform as many intermediate extracts as desired. 2 speed motors used on other commercial machines would overheat and limit there ability to perform multiple intermediate extract steps and thus these machines would normally be set up to perform only a final extract which then needed to be set up for more rinse baths.

For for over 35 years, Small Milnor washer extractors (35, 50 and 55lb capacities)used a complex yet very reliable system to achieve 4 speeds. These machines did then, as they do now, have a 30" diameter cylinder.

2 single speed Motors - we'll call the wash motor and the extract motor. And 2 12 volt friction clutches, we'll call the wash cluch and the extract clutch....tied together by a "jackshaft" to drive the cylinder.

It worked like this;

wash speed(about 35-37 rpm)= wash motor engaged, wash clutch engaged,extract motor not engaged, extract clutch not engaged

distribution, drain speed(about 65-70 rpm)Wash motor not engaged, wash clutch engaged, extract clutch not engaged, extract motor engaged

low speed extract(about 350-450 rpm depending upon model)wash motor engaged, wash clutch not engaged, extract clutch engaged, extract motor not engaged.

High speed extract(about 400 to 600 rpm depending upon model)wash motor not engaged, wash clutch not engaged, extract motor engaged, extract clutch engaged.

In otherwords, the wash motor ran the wash speed and the low extract speed. The extract motor ran the drain speed and the high extract speed, through 2 clutches.

FYI a 30" diameter cylinder spinning at 600 rpm produces 153 G's

Before microprocessors, these machines where timer driven. To tie all of the above together, a system of contactors and timed relays were used to see the machine through it's steps "automatically"....so that sales reps and chemical reps. did not have to be rocket scientists to set the machine up for actually processing laundry.

In a coin op laundry situation, the timer cam was set at the factory and no one had to worry about anything. The machine, when started would follow it's timed sequence of events and wash clothes.

In an OPL(On Premise Laundry) situation or at a commercial laundry the chemical or soap supplier had to programme the washer's cycles or formulas. Programming was done not with a keypad, but a black magic marker, pocket knife and indicator stickers. You actually created your own timer cam chart, telling the machine what to do and when to do it. Fingers, touching the copper cam would execute a command. Each finger controled a function of the machine. When you cut a slot on the chart so that the finger would touch the copper...that fingers function would be executed.

For a chemical supplier to understand all this, the key was to understanding the drain finger on the cam chart. These machines are all gravity drained, with a normally "open" drain...meaning the drain is open unless the drain finger on the cam chart was touching the copper and there was electricity present. So, during a Fill, a Flush, a Wash, a rinse.....any bath...the drain finger is touching the copper keeping the drain shut so the water says in the machine.

So now it's drain time on a MILNOR and we get back to the discussion about relays.

The programmer, with his pocket knife...cuts a slot on the plastic cam chart to wash in suds for 10 minutes. Other fingers are touching the copper at this time. The water temp, what chemicals to inject and so forth...but the drain finger is touching the copper for the 10 minute wash, keeping the drain closed. During the 10 minute wash, a reversing contactor is telling the cylinder to wash ccw for 20 secs, dwell for 3 and reverse for 20 secs.

10 minutes expires and the drain finger leaves the chart...is no longer touching the copper.

At this point 1 of 2 7.5 second relays go into action. The drain finger leaves the chart and reguardless of the current rotation of the cylinder, the first 7.5 second relay starts timing out. For 7.5 seconds the cylinder is forced to rotate at wash speed clock wise(wash motor and wash clutch engaged) for 7.5 seconds.

When the first 7.5 second relay times out a second 7.5 second relay takes over. This relay causes the machine to accelerate into drain speed(wash clutch engaged, extract motor engaged) NOTE...THE DRAIN VALVE IS STILL SHUT AND WATER IS IS STILL IN THE CYLINDER, The timer has been halted for a total of 15 seconds.

Even tho the drain finger left the cam chart 15 seconds ago, the drain is still shut because of the 2 relays, letting the washer/extractor wash cw for 7.5 seconds and then distribute for 7.5 seconds prior to dumping the water. When the second 7.5 second relay times out, the drain valve opens and lets the water out for the alotted time that the programmer(cam chart cutter has alotted. Usually 60 seconds.









Post# 143077 , Reply# 5   7/17/2006 at 13:18 (6,464 days old) by tumbler ()        
Commercial/Industrial washers

Fascinating! I'd seen Milnor machines with the "hood" up, but never worked on one. I have, in the past, worked on the Swedish Wascomat machines; those used a single motor with two windings. One winding, which was 8-poles, produced about 850 r.p.m. at the motor and about 35 or 40 at the tub. Magnetic contactors (two) were used to provide a reversing tumble action. The other winding, a 2-pole winding, ran the motor at 3450 r.p.m. to produce a not-very-impressive spin speed. It was controlled via a separate contactor. The timer you describe is similar to the old (pre-solid-state) Wascomats. I was kept busy swapping out motors and bringing them to the rewind shop-they burned out with annoying regularity, and were extremely expensive to rewind or replace. They also were located in such as way as to receive any overflow of bleach-laden wash water-right into their vent openings!


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