Thread Number: 72556  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
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Post# 958615   9/22/2017 at 16:43 by chetlaham (United States)        

Not my video, but I am wondering how these rank. Are they good? Cleaning? Longevity?








Looks nice on the inside.





Post# 958616 , Reply# 1   9/22/2017 at 16:47 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

I had the same one in my last flat lol

The on/off button fell off and couldn’t be repaired, had to use a pen. Apart from that it worked, took several hours per wash though


Post# 958622 , Reply# 2   9/22/2017 at 17:27 by henene4 (Germany)        
Basic Indesit

Was part of Hotpoint, until Whirlpool aquired Hotpoint.

Pretty basic, simple, cheap machines. Typical sealed tub (no bearing exchange possible), usual life span of 2-4 years.
But for 200-300€ machines, pretty ok. Good wash and rinse perfomance, though on the slower and less flexible side.


Post# 958623 , Reply# 3   9/22/2017 at 17:43 by iej (Ireland)        

They wash quite well but they’re made to a price and a very low one.
They’re also rather noisy!


Post# 958626 , Reply# 4   9/22/2017 at 18:31 by chetlaham (United States)        

Thanks everyone :) I agree basic- but looks simple and for 300 euros that is one economical front loader.


For those who know, can these be shipped to or bought from the US? Probably not going to happen for me, but it would be a fun toy to play with.


Post# 958632 , Reply# 5   9/22/2017 at 18:58 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Shouldn't think so

launderess's profile picture
Indesit appliances are not sold in USA to best of ones knowledge. For a start there is that pesky 208v-240v at 50hz power problem.

Now you *might* find something on fleaPay, CL or whatever, lord knows have seen plenty of European laundry appliances in such places. But most if not all were brought to these shores by people who moved house and for reasons only known to them packed up their washers and or dryers as well. Only to find even with a voltage converter (if no 208v-240v power is available) the change in frequency to 60hz can be enough to cause machine either to malfunction or simply not work.

IIRC many new electronic washing machines and dryers have internal sensors that are designed to limit damage from "improper" power sources. Thus running a washer that needs 50hz at 60hz can trigger such protections.

Being as all this may you *can* have anything you wish shipped from Europe to the USA, long as you are willing to pay. It would have to go via freight and don't fancy the chances of it arriving totally undamaged.

There is the other rub; if the machine does become damaged and or needs repair you may be on your own. Since Indesit isn't sold in USA there isn't an established parts/repair network.

If you want a similar but less electronic Indesit washer, but something sold in USA, search out Malber washers and dryers of old. They were made by the same company (Merloni Elettrodomestici ), and occupied a similar market; BOL to MOL washers and dryers that were relatively durable (if not abused) for what they were.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indesit_Co...


Post# 958634 , Reply# 6   9/22/2017 at 19:06 by chetlaham (United States)        

Would any of these come close to that machine (same manufacture) or a far cry?


www.eastwestintl.com/showprod.asp...

The on board heaters with boil wash are extremely attractive.


Post# 958636 , Reply# 7   9/22/2017 at 19:21 by henene4 (Germany)        
Wow

Interesting site. They even have machines that are hard to get over here, like that slimline toploading condenser dryer.

The Electrolux machines are verry good in their own right. That is all the AEG, Electrolux and Zanussi branded versions, preferably with an inverter motor. Pretty long cycle times though.

But there even is a heatpump dryer avaible! *gasp*


Post# 958637 , Reply# 8   9/22/2017 at 19:22 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture

First two are AEG units but made by Electrolux, and not of the Oko-Lavamat or Lavatherm of old like mine or those others have. You can purchase AEG units from places like this: alno-usa.com/appliances#aeg...

Having looked inside my AEG washer it is made for 50hz/60hz power, you'd want to make sure any unit purchased is designed to run on North American 208v-240v at 60hz power.

Have known the above linked website of old and seems they are geared to selling North American appliances modified for export to overseas. How they get there is another matter since company itself does not offer international shipping.

My AEG Oko-Lavamat will do a boil wash, but rarely use that setting just as hardly bothered with same on the Miele. Have found using a good European detergent with bleach such as Persil (powder or Megaperls) gives excellent results at 140F or even 120F.

Personally if it is a boil washing capable washer you're after, I'd go with an older Miele washer. There are plenty of them out there and often going for relative little money. Since Miele has an established parts/repair in USA you wouldn't be stuck if something goes wrong. Purchase a Candy unit from the above website may be all very well, but what happens when or if it needs repair/parts?


Post# 958683 , Reply# 9   9/23/2017 at 05:10 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Looking at the machines on offer at the East West International Company, it wouldn't surprise me if they have an Australian, Sout African or so trade partner. I guess it would make sense to import huge quantities from one country with 220V. A lot of the machines on that site, especially V-axis toploaders, are not available in Europe.

Post# 958687 , Reply# 10   9/23/2017 at 06:40 by iej (Ireland)        

You’d wonder who they are marketing those to?
I mean it just seems odd you wouldn’t simply buy a washing machine locally.

They seem to be a fairly ransom collection of EU and US washers.

Is it for people moving to / living in very underdeveloped parts of the world?


Post# 958878 , Reply# 11   9/24/2017 at 10:00 by chetlaham (United States)        
US and Canada shipping only

The site is geared with the intention of purchasing 230 volt appliances for those moving abroad. Some marine applications as well where 240 volts is present. The idea is you take them with you once they arrive. Also I think very large orders can be shipped internationally. However, some folks like those 3000 watt griddles and 2,400 watt hair dryers in their home ;) If any US folks ever try a real high wattage kettle, iron, or cooking appliance... you don't go back, thats for certain.


In any case I am thrilled that they offer stuff that you can't even get in Europe. I did not know that, but now that I do I feel blessed.

Does anyone know who makes those Multi-star washers?


Post# 958883 , Reply# 12   9/24/2017 at 11:06 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
There are more than a handful of these sort of export stores

launderess's profile picture
All over the USA; we have some here in NYC.

www.bondyexport.com/category/cata...

Discovered them ages ago (maybe before joining this wonderful group or shortly afterwards) when seeking 220v washing machine.

Best as one can tell these places all cater to overseas markets. That is as mentioned persons already in USA and moving house. It is *VERY dear to ship large appliances overseas. It almost always means via ship which involves tons of paperwork.

Way around this of course is for diplomatic, military and corporate postings where someone else is picking up the moving tab. Then you often get a crate or something that you can pack up your household goods and the lot gets shipped overseas.

This is also how all those wonderful European appliances we see on this side of pond end up. Though it was more common when people came by ship instead of air. From what one understands ocean liners offered generous cargo allowances for passengers. You could even bring back an automobile if that was up your street. At least one fantastic car went down with the Andrea Doria.

www.bondyexport.com/planning-your...

Am given to understand that those moving house to Israel often want American appliances, especially large capacity washing machines and dryers. This likely explains the Speed Queen appliances on offer.

www.whodoyou.com/biz/1885...

Indians seem to dominate this 220v electronics market, apparently there is also a large market for persons wishing to take such things back to India.
www.desijacksonheights.com/applia...

Do not know if any of these dealers sell appliances that will work in the USA and or even if they come with any sort of contractual warranty. The fact they are all 50hz alone means they aren't designed to work in USA. Wonder what Alliance Laundry would say if you did purchase one and it had problems.


Post# 958899 , Reply# 13   9/24/2017 at 13:04 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Until today I can't understand why USA and 90% of Brazil uses 110V.

220V is way better for everything. It's safer, it's more reliable, It does things much faster and in some cases it saves electricity.


Post# 958906 , Reply# 14   9/24/2017 at 14:02 by chetlaham (United States)        

I don't understand it either, especially considering that 240 volts is already present in every North American panel.

@Launderess: Thank you for the links. :) I had no idea those particular stores existed.


Post# 958918 , Reply# 15   9/24/2017 at 16:34 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
As we've gone through at nearly every discussion about voltage; not all American homes/apartments have a "panel" with 220v power coming in, and upgrading (when possible) can be an expensive undertaking. Miele found this out for years trying to push their 220v washing machines with only limited success. A good portion of the time deal killer was the voltage. That and the perceived small capacity.

Here in NYC we have some of the oldest housing stock in the country. You have multi-family housing from our very best homes on Fifth Avenue to Lower East Side tenements that went up in the early part of last century, if not before. In many instances their electric capacity is what was installed to suit, and has not grown.

Know plenty of persons living in apartments with around 80amp (2 twenty amp fuses, and two 15 amp) total amperage. Only reason fuse box was up graded to two twenty amps is one is for fridge (in kitchen), the other for AC (outlet near window).

In many instances it isn't even just a matter of running more power from the main box in basement/meter. But rather increased supply must come in from the mains outside. That involves ConEdison, a licensed electrician, breaking up sidewalk, installing new panel in apartment, running the line up from basement......

Fast forward to today much new construction and major renovations are getting 220v lines because people are demanding washing machines and dryers. It is not always possible (or wanted) to run a gas line, so people go with electricity. Besides many of the "compact" European dryers do not come in gas anyway (Miele no longer sells gas dryers in USA), so again you are going to need 220v power.

The other reason is one we've discussed before; post WWII much of Europe was rebuilding housing and infrastructure that was damaged. Decisions were made to go with 208v-240v at 50hz (yes, I know) power as the standard. As mod cons had not expanded greatly (and even if they had large numbers likely would have been damaged or destroyed during the war), it was easy to mandate that switch.

Across the pond USA saw no damage to infrastructure and basically simply carried on. As the expansion of electricity continued to rural areas that didn't have they got the same service as elsewhere.

Also as we've discussed one of the prime reasons for all that "high power" in European homes was for washing machines and dishwashers to heat their own water. American homes largely relied upon central hot water from a tank. Energy for heating could be provided by any of the "cheap" but (then) plentiful natural resources (coal, natural gas, oil), and or if you lived in certain areas where electricity was basically being given away.

Long story short the die was cast and don't see it changing in any large way. People and or businesses that need 208v-240v power can usually get it if they wish.


Post# 958929 , Reply# 16   9/24/2017 at 18:26 by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA)        
220V is safer??

Thomas, all things being equal, a shock from 240V to ground carries twice the amperage of a shock from 120V to ground. So 120V has the safety advantage. I don't see why 240V is more reliable than 120V.

 

The North American system is elegant, I think. 240V, as the potential difference between two 120V legs, is routinely supplied by the power company. Appliances needing less amperage can run on 120V, with less shock hazard than 240V. The problem is availability of 240V within buildings.  


Post# 958930 , Reply# 17   9/24/2017 at 18:32 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Small toys

combo52's profile picture
Hi Chet. If you want a small toy find a used WP Chinese or Italian 24" washer

Post# 958944 , Reply# 18   9/24/2017 at 21:24 by iej (Ireland)        

Laundress, I'm not sure that you're entirely correct there.

220V 50Hz single-phase using a hot and 0V neutral predates WWII in Europe.
Here in Ireland it's mentioned as the official standard as early as 1923.

There were a few other approaches taken, including 3-wire systems in some countries and there were a lot of different voltages and frequencies before national grids became the norm. Most of the standardisation seems to have happened long before WWII though, with Britain being a notable exception as it had a large number of voltages and only really fixed on 240V 50Hz in the early 1970s.

50Hz came about largely by just picking a number that provides imperceptible flicker in incandescent bulbs but that wasn't so fast that it made generators impractical.

50Hz is basically metric - you're flipping from + to - 100 times a second (or 50 full cycles per second)
That seems to have become the established standards in Europe very early on and possibly came from Siemens or AEG.

60Hz is 60 cycles per as second and time is all in base 60 so there's a logic to that too.

There's really very little advantage to either frequency and both have the unfortunate consequence of causing muscle contractions. In an ideal world if you were picking a frequency now, maybe 400Hz might have given more advantages - smaller transfers, absolutely no flicker but we are where we are and it works fine.

Three wire systems all originated with the notion that light and power were charged differently. So you could get lights from your 110V supply but if you wanted power or heating you had to buy a different service and it was either an extra meter or a higher standing charge.

Remember early electric lights were being sold to compete with gas.

That differential charging stopped making sense fairly early on but somehow the US ended up largely on 110V for most appliances.

The shock risk from both 120 and 230V us potentially lethal and is why GFCI or RCD protection is important.

230V also increases the current carrying capacity of wiring and connectors so you generally decrease fire hazards a bit.


Post# 958959 , Reply# 19   9/25/2017 at 00:58 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

400 Hz power-used in aircraft and military-some gov't power supplies.Knew someone that used to work at a Minuteman missle site-the power used there was 400Hz-they took 60 Hz power from the utility-converted it to 400Hz.They also had 400Hz gas turbine gensets if the utility was lost.Some Control Data mainframe computer systems ran from 400Hz power.Inductive components such as transformers and motors are smaller and lighter.For motors they can run at higher speeds-The hydraulic pumps at the Minutemean site were like 200Hp-7200 RPM that opened-closed the silo door.In an airplane that had a 20mm gatling type cannon-the 2 hp 400Hz motor that ran it was no larger than your two fists held together.A 2Hp 60Hz motor would be much larger and slower RPM.And for airliners and other aircraft-look under your chair next time you are sitting in one-there may be a 208V 3Ph outlet to run the vacuum cleaner to clean the cabin-usually a backpack canister-many vacuum companies make 400Hz vacuums for aircraft use.The vacuum uses a brushless 3Ph induction motor.

Post# 958966 , Reply# 20   9/25/2017 at 03:38 by chetlaham (United States)        
120 vs 230 volt

@suberband:

"220V is safer??

Thomas, all things being equal, a shock from 240V to ground carries twice the amperage of a shock from 120V to ground. So 120V has the safety advantage. I don't see why 240V is more reliable than 120V."

From a shock standpoint without GFCI/RCD, 240 volts tends to kill more often. Because of ohms law, any electricity flowing through the body will dissipate 4 times the heat at 240 volts than at 120 volts. Burns are more sever, and the higher current increases the odds of going into the "no let go" range.


"The North American system is elegant, I think. 240V, as the potential difference between two 120V legs, is routinely supplied by the power company. Appliances needing less amperage can run on 120V, with less shock hazard than 240V. The problem is availability of 240V within buildings."

In most cases the shock hazard is about the same for North American 240 because most shocks are line to ground giving only 120 volts across the body.

One area where I can think of 240 volts being safer than 120 is during an open neutral event. At 240 volts an open neutral in North America will not cause over voltages, which have been known to cause fires. In countries with 230 volts single phase, that risk is eliminated within the structure's wiring.


.........

400 hertz. While that would result in much smaller transformers, the reactive losses of transmission lines will be far greater. Motors will much smaller as mentioned- but run faster, making a lot of applications require a gear box. From a paper I have, it mentioned 133Hz and other high frequencies back in the day were stalling the development of induction motors. I can copy and paste it here if ok with the site rules.


Post# 958967 , Reply# 21   9/25/2017 at 03:40 by chetlaham (United States)        
Small toys

@Combo: Does Whirlpool still make any 120 volt washers with European designed parts for the American market? I know their mini dryers are Italian made, they are neat little critters.

Post# 958968 , Reply# 22   9/25/2017 at 04:39 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
There are three European designed models for the American market on Whirlpool's website:

www.whirlpool.com/laundry...

www.whirlpool.com/laundry/washer...

www.whirlpool.com/laundry/washer...



There are matching heatpumt dryers for the first two models:

www.whirlpool.com/laundry...

www.whirlpool.com/laundry/dryers...



Post# 958980 , Reply# 23   9/25/2017 at 05:26 by iej (Ireland)        

With properly installed domestic wiring systems, both US and European power are exceptionally safe. The risk of getting fatally electrocuted certainly in Northern European countries is up there with the risk of being killed by a meteor strike.

You can actually get the statistics for most countries in Europe - it's a very unusual way to be accidentally killed. Also most incidents aren't contact with normal domestic appliances - they're usually construction accidents, farm or industrial accidents and direct contact with overhead lines - notably on railways.

Most European countries also have very wireless use of RCD (GFCI) devices on all electrical outlets. There's variance in when they were adopted as mandatory, Ireland for example was 1980 but the UK was much more recent.

Those have had a huge impact on the number of domestic accidents in most countries.

I know in the US they're outlet based GFCIs whereas here they're either a RCD or a combined breaker and RCD called an RCBO. These are on every final circuit in modern installations and every socket outlet circuit in 1980s installations.

My washer and dryer (heat pump) for example are on their own dedicated 20amp 230V circuit with an RCBO feeding it.

..

Also btw when you're looking at European systems before the 1960s there were really very little in the way of coordinating bodies creating pan European standards. It's very difficult to make any kind of generalisation about old European systems as there was no "European system". You've had a process of harmonisation of standards since the early days of the EU and also since bodies like CENELEC emerged in the 50s and 60s. There was no common market for goods and services (actually only fully completed in 1993) so every country has a history of its own standards and electrical systems. They all happened to land on 220V 50Hz largely due to a history of voluntary cooperation rather than hard standards. The UK actually landed on 240V 50Hz. 230V is a compromise between the two!

You also had a rake of different national standards approving appliances until 1993. So would have seen umpteen different national standards stamps and stickers on devices sold in Europe until then. Those became accepted for cross border trade as we harmonised the rules and regulations and then ultimately the CE mark system appeared allowing full free trade.

In the modern era European harmonised standards apply but you still have national quirks like different plugs and sockets in the UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta. as well as national systems in Italy, Denmark and Switzerland. However, other than the superficial socket/plug configuration those countries still all comply with the fundamental electrical standards. Even their plugs and sockets conform to basic harmonised regs.

So in general, I wouldn't describe a "European system" until the modern era.

Incidentally, it was largely the development of the common market that brought automatic washers at affordable prices to the UK. Before that you had tarrif barriers. It was the influx of washing machines from Italy in particular in the 1970s that really brought British households into a situation where washing machines with modern controls were suddenly no longer a luxury. Prior to that, the local manufacturers were still largely pushing either manual twin tubs or very very expensive automatic machines that were out of reach of the average household.

So despite all the politics around Brexit, the EU played a big role in the development of British kitchens and laundry rooms in the 20th century.


Post# 958995 , Reply# 24   9/25/2017 at 06:25 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Very simply------MORE people are KILLED off 120V in the US than from other sources!!!!120V IS LETHAL---DON'T FORGET IT!!!!!!

Post# 958997 , Reply# 25   9/25/2017 at 06:29 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Again for 400Hz-yes-transmission of this is less efficient than 50 or 60 Hz.If the facility uses the 400 Hz or "High Cycle" power as electricians call it-it is converted at the site.Older days motor gensets-newer SS converters.

Post# 959004 , Reply# 26   9/25/2017 at 07:46 by iej (Ireland)        

Well the difference between 120V and 230V is a bit like falling off a 5 story building or falling off a 10 story building. You don't really want to do either and the technical differences aren't relevant as both are above body tolerances by quite a bit.

The only safe to touch systems would be SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) typically 12 or 24V with limited current, usually provided by isolating transformer.

Bear in mind too, 12V isn't necessarily safe. A car battery for example can cause severe burns if it comes into contact with a pathway like a metal watch strap as they can produced very large current flows at low voltage. Over loaded low voltage supplies for recessed lighting are also prone to extremely nasty fires as the low voltage = high ampage which needs much thicker wires. Sometimes people doing DIY work don't realise that you're increasing the ampage by a factor of 10 going from 120V to 12V or almost 20 times by going from 230V to 12V. Then they create complex setups with normal household wiring and end up causing fires at what loom like sturdy junctions.

At least LED lights are killing off those dangerous recessed halogens that were so popular for a while.

Some of the lost dangerous things you'll ever encounter are bus bars in large telephone switches providing -48V DC to thousands of lines. Also submarine batteries!
I would also treat hybrid and electric car batteries with extreme caution.

Always great electricity with respect and always assume things are live.

For enthusiasts on thia forum the one thing to always remember: unplug the appliance before touching any internal components! Always! Never trust a switch to isolate things safely. All they do is interrupt a circuit. if they're on the neutral or if you've a supply that has two lives (hots) you can be in a. Lot of trouble If you touch something.

Also grounding/earthing! Always, always, always ensure that your metal cased appliances are correctly grounded. Ever use a washing machine in any situation that bypasses the grounding on a socket outlet. This is almost impossible here as we don't have a concept of ungrounded outlets or plugs but it's common enough to see "cheater plugs" in old US buildings - I saw plenty in Massachusetts and also to see grounded schuko plugs inserted into non grounded socket outlets in older buildings in continental Europe.

Also RCD or GFCI protection.
In Europe it's fairly normal these days to gave GFCI / RCD protection on socket outlet circuits but if you don't and you're working on washing machines whatever part of the world you are in, at the very least get a GFCI or RCD outlet fitted or use a plug in equivalent and test it.

The advice here on RCDs is that they should all be tested when the clocks go back or forward for the start / end of daylight saving time. That two seconds of inconvenience can save someone's life.




This post was last edited 09/25/2017 at 12:02
Post# 959006 , Reply# 27   9/25/2017 at 08:00 by iej (Ireland)        

@tolivac. 400Hz is commonly used in aviation systems generally.
You can even buy 400Hz vacuum cleaners !

www.averncleaningsupplies...

110V 400Hz

Also in the UK and Ireland portable equipment used on construction sites is all connected via an isolating transformer that is centre tapped giving you 110V 50Hz with two hots with about 55V to ground.
So there's a whole range of 110V 50Hz power tools used here that are not suitable for use with US 120V 60Hz grounded neutral supplies.


Post# 959008 , Reply# 28   9/25/2017 at 08:15 by henene4 (Germany)        
Falling of a building

First of all, 5 stories are verry much survivable. Not likely, but possible. I mean, there were people surviving skyscraper suicide jumps by landing on a car legs first. The legs and hips were mush, but the car roof in combination with their legs reduced the decelaration enough to allow the important stuff to survive.



And both mains supplies are survivable, it depends on the path the elctricity takes through your body.

If it goes around your heart and core muscles, for example once across your hand, there can be heavy damage to your hand, and your body certanly will not be comfortable, but death for a healthy adult is unlikely.
I had a small mains shock from a faulty range hood once; I went to switch it off, and while switching, I touched the metal housing. Something shorted, the case became life, my hand jolted back and the RCD tripped. I had a nice big burned spot on my finger, my hand hurt as hell, but otherwise, I was fine (though incredibly startled).

Would the path of electricity been through my body to ground, big difference.


Same with lightning strikes onto people: Even direct hits ar verry much survivable, though at tens of thousands of amps and hundreds of thousands of volts, that should be impossible.

For example, if the bolt strikes your right shoulder, and your right hand is conductivley coupled to ground (for example a street sign) and you are wearing thick rubber sole boots, the majority of the power will go the way of least resitence, through your arm and out the hand.
Severe burns and nerve damage on your arm, but survivable.

If you'd have your left hand grounded in that scenario, the current would pass through your chest, messing up heart and breathing, resulting in verry likel death.


That is why power lines are that deadly: Most of the time, the path to ground is through your entire body.


Post# 959024 , Reply# 29   9/25/2017 at 10:12 by iej (Ireland)        

The faulty range hood shows why grounding is so important, even with RCDs.

Post# 959148 , Reply# 30   9/26/2017 at 00:15 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

Back when I worked for Goldstar (LG) in Alabama building TV's I made a connection across my heart from the test cable in my left hand to something live inside the TV with my right hand....they were plugged in on the assembly line with their backs off so we could adjust them.  I was the color/tint guy and had to stick a clip inside to switch some things around.  I blacked out for a second or two.  I remember feeling the hair on my neck stand up.  I was standing and the shock made me lean backwards which broke the "circuit".  It made me feel weird after but it didn't hurt!  I really think it caused a cardiac arrhythmia for a brief moment and knowing what I know about the heart now after working in cardiology for over 12 years.


Post# 959152 , Reply# 31   9/26/2017 at 00:46 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

400Hz vacuums-In the US its ProTeam,and NSS(National Super Service) come to mind for 400Hz aircraft vacuums.

Post# 959153 , Reply# 32   9/26/2017 at 00:51 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

A time I got bit by 230V was here at the transmitter-replacing a vacuum tune capacitor in one of the transmitters-My hand brushed against a 230V blower motor terminal-felt like I was kicked by a horse-Pissed me off bigtime-the 230V supply breaker to that Tx was off just like that!!!So now I DOUBLE check the breakers have been shut off before working inside-was a good reminder to check and make sure the power is ALL THE WAY off before working inside!Was a job left over from the last shift.Don't assume they shut off the power-CHECK FOR YOURSELF!!!!Again--that was a hard reminder.Next time you get bit------you might not survive.

Post# 959206 , Reply# 33   9/26/2017 at 07:25 by iej (Ireland)        

The main thing on this site is :

Unplug before going anywhere near the innards of a washing machine, dryer or any other appliance. You've risks of both shock and loss of fingers in belts or other moving parts or burns from heaters.

Also be very wary of capacitors! You can get a fairly nasty blast from those when the power is off.


Post# 959212 , Reply# 34   9/26/2017 at 07:59 by chetlaham (United States)        

Great discussion and great replies thus far! :) Also thank you for those links, Foraloysius.

Post# 959236 , Reply# 35   9/26/2017 at 10:15 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
You're welcome. Are you considering purchasing one of those? You will have to keep in mind that European Whirlpools are not well known for their quality.

Post# 959239 , Reply# 36   9/26/2017 at 10:40 by henene4 (Germany)        
Can second that

Had 3 service calls on ours in 3 years time.

Post# 959298 , Reply# 37   9/26/2017 at 15:58 by chetlaham (United States)        

I am considering one, but nothing is final or definite.


When you guys say Indeist, does this mean its the design before Whirlpool? Or is Whirlpool now making the Indeist design?


Post# 959300 , Reply# 38   9/26/2017 at 16:08 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
This machine was designed before Whirlpool took over Indesit and is still made in the same factory, but that factory is now owned by Whirlpool.

Post# 960315 , Reply# 39   10/2/2017 at 22:33 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

220V is safer

Why i said that

1) the change of a fire due to overload is much lower. (its more difficult to overload a 220V circuit)

2) The shock itself is dangerous (or twice dangerous), but safety devices, like circuit breakers, DR, etc have a minimal (but existent) change to go off faster than 110V, exactly because of the higher voltage. So ok, the shock itself is worse, but it may last a fraction of second less. and it can be the difference between life and death.

3) psichology factors... people naturally tend to be more cautious when they know it's 220V. so not because the voltage itself is safer, but because people have a better attitude and behavior when using 220V appliances.


Post# 960334 , Reply# 40   10/3/2017 at 00:54 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

A circuit breaker cannot trip fast enough to save you--Common sense will!ANY of the power supply voltages discussed here are DANGEROUS and LETHAL.

Post# 960348 , Reply# 41   10/3/2017 at 03:04 by iej (Ireland)        

A circuit breaker is *not* a shock protection device. Never, ever assume that.

All a circuit breaker (MCB in Europe) does is trip when too much current is flowing (an overcurrent). This protects against fire, not shock. They do exactly the same job as a fuse. These will allow large current to flow (enough to power several appliances) but not more than the fixed wiring in the building can safely handle.

They will absolutely not protect you from a lethal shock.

To protect people and animals from getting electric shocks you needs a different type of device known as a GFCI in the US or an RCD in Europe and some other parts of the world.
These work by comparing the current on both sides of a circuit and if there's a difference beyond a certain preset level (low enough to prevent leathal shock) they trip.
These are very common in Europe (mandatory for a long time in many countries) but, as far as I am aware, would not be required on US 240V circuits.


Post# 960352 , Reply# 42   10/3/2017 at 03:39 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        

ozzie908's profile picture
I was perusing Shpock a boot sale app the other day and came across this Siemens Vario perfect washer.
It would seem to be a relatively unused machine as its got no mould and is in lovely condition I have not tested it out yet as need to bring it home and put a UK plug on it as its got a German one as it was brought over by some military family who bought a house with a integrated washer so it has sat in a garage unused. Now the reason I got it was I like to have a spare washer around due to people I know who ask if I have one to sell/loan or to use while fixing theirs. So as you can see it is in its mother tongue but its so simple to use the only button I am not sure of is " Knitter schutz " Oh and for the grand sum of £20

Austin


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This post was last edited 10/03/2017 at 03:06
Post# 960353 , Reply# 43   10/3/2017 at 03:42 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Knitterschutz = Wrinkle guard.

Post# 960356 , Reply# 44   10/3/2017 at 03:53 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Louis your a star !

ozzie908's profile picture
So its a Rinse-hold I assume you repress to make it carry on the spin?

Austin


Post# 960404 , Reply# 45   10/3/2017 at 11:07 by chetlaham (United States)        

"1) the change of a fire due to overload is much lower. (its more difficult to overload a 220V circuit)"

Thats what circuit breakers are for. They disconnect long before the wire itself is hot enough to start a fire. Second because 240 volt circuits can carry twice the power, they will run twice as many lights and/or receptacles. No electrician will limit a 3,600 watt residential circuit to 1,800. Also code requires 3va per foot minimum when determining how many general use circuits, so a 2,000sqft home could either be wired with 4 120 volt 15 amp circuits, 3 120 volt 20amp circuits OR 2 240 volt 15 amp circuits...




"2) The shock itself is dangerous (or twice dangerous), but safety devices, like circuit breakers, DR, etc have a minimal (but existent) change to go off faster than 110V, exactly because of the higher voltage. So ok, the shock itself is worse, but it may last a fraction of second less. and it can be the difference between life and death."


Typical shock currents are in the milli-amp range as well as fatal levels. 1 amp is considered very lethal. To trip any residential breaker you need to go above the handle rating, and to trip the breaker instantaneously you need at least 10 to 20x the handle rating. Which means if a person being shocked is passing 18 amps the breaker will probably never open, they would need to pass 25 amps to trip a 15 amp breaker in 60-90 seconds, and 150 to 300 amps to trip the breaker in a fraction of a second.

150 to 300amps for a fraction of a second passing through a person's body would cause severe, fatal burns. There is a graph I can post which shows the duration of shock vs magnitude the body can tolerate to a certain point.


Post# 960408 , Reply# 46   10/3/2017 at 11:23 by chetlaham (United States)        
Curve

Here is the shock duration vs magnitude curve taken from IEC/TR-61200-413 report. Note that we are talking mill-amps, not amps and mill-seconds, not seconds. The various zones/bonds are explained in the next linked picture. In other words, just 1 amp for a fraction of a second will cause serve burns.


And here is the curve in color:

www.google.com/searchQUES...


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Post# 960409 , Reply# 47   10/3/2017 at 11:25 by chetlaham (United States)        
*milli

Forgot the "i" there. I miss things all the time with spell check turned off. I turned it off because it comes with auto-correct on my computer which means anything I typed turned into a very different meaning lol.

Post# 960411 , Reply# 48   10/3/2017 at 12:10 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I don't think one system is safer than another. It's more important how a system is executed. The best design can appear to be bad due to a bad execution of it.

Post# 960413 , Reply# 49   10/3/2017 at 12:21 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Austin

foraloysius's profile picture
I think the Wrinkle guard is a different spin cycle with more tumbling and a slower spinspeed.

Post# 960469 , Reply# 50   10/3/2017 at 18:22 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Louis

ozzie908's profile picture
I apologise completely misunderstood thank you for clarifying that for me

Post# 960535 , Reply# 51   10/4/2017 at 05:25 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
No need for an apology Austin, I just translated the word, didn't explain it at first. I just don't know how it's called in English on the Bosch/Siemens control panels. I couldn't find anything about it with a quick Google search.

Post# 961332 , Reply# 52   10/8/2017 at 10:55 by bewitched (Italy)        

These are the only genuine indesit washers, the others are just a brand on an Ariston machine.Its just like putting a Zenith label on a lg television...

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