Thread Number: 72601  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
kenmore direct drive lint
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Post# 959110   9/25/2017 at 19:48 by mhorn (mount bethel pa)        

need some advise mom is 80 years old and a washaholic ,washer seems to run every other day sometimes twice,, we use a kenmore top loader direct drive 2006 made by whirlpool 110.16922504, i am a john deere service manager and i am handy on all types of repairs,, so far i have changed motor couplings, agitator pawls and now the inner spin basket,,, problem in the last 4 months the washer has finished all loads with lint, hair and fuzz all over, tried differnet soap, no softner , everything no better, so i took it all apart to clean, found alot of rust inside tube on spin basket changed it but did not expect it to help and it did not,, pump works great,,, but lint lint lint,, now mom hangs all clothes on line against her rules to waste money on dryer and everyone tells me thats why lint is their but thats how she did wash for the last 25 years,, now one last thing i lifted the lid up just so switch is still ok and watched it run and what i see is that the unit fills, agitates then stops ok has small delay then shifts to drain but the tub spins right away in drain mode, i guess that means no neutral drain working, this is the only item i can find wrong with washer but many pros tell me thats an issue but not going to help with the lint,,,,,any thoughts i hate to tear unit down and get no where fast,,, cant afford a new unit yet,, thank you




Post# 959139 , Reply# 1   9/25/2017 at 22:08 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
well this is a loaded question, and no rhyme or reason as to why one person/machine will get one set of results, and another will not...

lets stick with the basics, and your choice to execute them....

any machine with a lint filter, no matter if its a self clean, manual clean, or just plain removed....doesn't affect anything....mine are just there for looks, and removed when using the machine...

people have been line and/or machine drying for years....

linting usually comes from:

overloading
not enough detergent
excessive wash time
excessive wash speed
not separating lint givers from lint receivers

and usually falls to, the more you agitate, the more lint you are creating...

washing something like towels, yeah, your going to get lint......the next load could be darks, and you may have a residue of lint from the past load transferring to another....

and there may be a far chance, since you switched out the tub, but that the agitator may have a jagged/rough edge or two, causing items to snag, creating linting...


I goofed a few times in forgetting, in a TLer, you have separate all loads, in a FLer, I can mix loads, no issues.....

my mother will leave Kleenex in her pockets.....in a TLer, it is shredded all over the load......in a FLer, it comes back out as one full piece....

your mileage may vary....


Post# 959229 , Reply# 2   9/26/2017 at 09:42 by philcobendixduo (San Jose)        
Kenmore DD Lint

philcobendixduo's profile picture
I have the exact same issue with lint but ONLY when the "neutral drain" fails and the washer "spin drains".
This usually happens during the "gentle" cycle and/or with loads that are very light in weight.
I don't know if the collected lint is somehow discharged into the tub during "spin drain" or if the action of the water swirling around as it "spin drains" causes lint to be dislodged from the outer tub.
Whatever the case, I then find the finished load has a lot of lint etc. and I then have to either dry it in the dryer or, after line drying, use a lint roller on the items after they are dry.


Post# 959242 , Reply# 3   9/26/2017 at 11:08 by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Lint Ring

mrb627's profile picture
That would make sense if the lint was captured by the ring underneath the tub. Spinning and Draining would dislodge the lint, sending it back into the water. Re-depositing throughout the wash load.

Malcolm


Post# 959302 , Reply# 4   9/26/2017 at 16:27 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

I was just thinking the same thing Malcolm.


Post# 959311 , Reply# 5   9/26/2017 at 17:22 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Oh my, that can't be!  Spin-drain is always better!  ;-)


Post# 959341 , Reply# 6   9/26/2017 at 20:57 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Linty clothing from a direct drive whirlpool built washer

combo52's profile picture
The problem is the lack of a neutral drain, as we all know or should by now a neutral drain is superior for getting dirt in lint out of clothing rather than spinning it back into the clothing.

We get several service calls like this every year and we have to replace the transmission to get it to neutral drain again because of the complaints of excessive linting.

As all of us appliance collectors know Whirlpool orignly built this washer with a spin and drain system and was forced to redesign it with the neutral drain because of complaints of linting.

All spin drain washers with preforted baskets have had trouble with excessive lifting including GE filter flow Maytag dependable cares and Frigidaire 1-18s.

Usually people that line dry clothing notice this more often.

John L


Post# 959342 , Reply# 7   9/26/2017 at 21:28 by mhorn (mount bethel pa)        
neutral drain

i really feel that the lack of the neutral drain is my issue,, since everything checks out from pump flow to timer to watching unit work and timing with a watch how each cycle changes, and since the lint was not an issue years back, it must be the lack of a neutral drain giving my lint issue, but so many sites that i have checked with alot say no way ,,,i am very handy on repairs of any type do i try to put a new neutral drain repair parts in old trans,, or do i put in a new trans on a 2006 washer,,, thank you for the help with this issue,,,

Post# 959346 , Reply# 8   9/26/2017 at 22:12 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Linty clothing from a direct drive whirlpool built washer

combo52's profile picture
The problem is the lack of a neutral drain, as we all know or should by now a neutral drain is superior for getting dirt in lint out of clothing rather than spinning it back into the clothing.

We get several service calls like this every year and we have to replace the transmission to get it to neutral drain again because of the complaints of excessive linting.

As all of us appliance collectors know Whirlpool orignly built this washer with a spin and drain system and was forced to redesign it with the neutral drain because of complaints of linting.

All spin drain washers with preforted baskets have had trouble with excessive lifting including GE filter flow Maytag dependable cares and Frigidaire 1-18s.

Usually people that line dry clothing notice this more often.

John L


Post# 959400 , Reply# 9   9/27/2017 at 09:34 by pumpkina (California)        

Thanks, John L. What year and starting with what model did Whirlpool convert from spin and dry to neutral drain?

Also, is there an easy way to determine if a particular unit has neutral drain?


Post# 959404 , Reply# 10   9/27/2017 at 10:14 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Whirlpool neutral drain washers

combo52's profile picture
All Whirlpool top load washers ever built did a neutral drain before attempting to spin with the exception of the first direct drives from late 1981 through sometime in 1984 before they realized they could not get away with taking the shortcut but most other manufactures had managed to get away with.

Even Speed Queen today makes neutral dream washers for markets like Australia where many people use line drying.

The next generation of Speed Queen top load washers in the United states will also do a neutral drain.

John L.


Post# 959440 , Reply# 11   9/27/2017 at 13:44 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        
Combo52

brucelucenta's profile picture
I knew that if anyone knew the answer, you would. It does surprise me that it would result in a great deal of linting. I would not have guessed that, but it makes sense when you think about it. I think also that neutral drain lets the clothes settle down lower in the bottom before spinning and thus making it easier on the bearings too. I think the reason Maytag got away with that was the fact that they didn't create a lot of lint in washing.

Post# 959465 , Reply# 12   9/27/2017 at 16:18 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        

My parents had a maytag top loader that always did a spin drain for the wash and rinses.  Why was lint not a problem in that machine?


Post# 959493 , Reply# 13   9/27/2017 at 18:56 by mhorn (mount bethel pa)        
neutral drain

thanks for all the good advise, no substitute for experience, special thanks to john l. do you suggest i take trans apart and find issue try to fix with a kit,, or throw in complete trans,,, and also should i change the clutch lining,,, thanks

Post# 959528 , Reply# 14   9/28/2017 at 04:43 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        
Why was lint not a problem in that machine?

foraloysius's profile picture
Because there is no problem. We had lots of discussions about neutral and spin drains. So Robert compared both ways of draining. He didn't noticed any difference between the both of them. So all these discussions are much ado about nothing.

Post# 959536 , Reply# 15   9/28/2017 at 06:30 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
Louis beat me to it, but he is right, if there isn't a problem, don't go looking for it!...

you can also take the same machine, same load, but two different operators, and still end up with different results...

way too many variables to conclude what may or may not cause lint for one, and not for another...


Post# 959554 , Reply# 16   9/28/2017 at 08:05 by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Problem - Me Thinks...

mrb627's profile picture
Has to do with the existence and location of a lint filter.

Maytag's filter is either in the barrel of the agitator, or a flat screen embedded in the wash tub. Lint on the screen under the tub would be less likely to cling during the pause and start of spin. Also, the spin torque with a full tub of water may play into it. Maytag's belt slippage keeps the tub slow when full where a WP DD clutch is a little more grab and go.

In the WP design, the filter fingers would hold onto the lint during neutral drain. Casting it away during spin for flushing down the drain. Spinning those fingers in a full tub of water would certainly cast that lint back into the load.

Malcolm


Post# 959577 , Reply# 17   9/28/2017 at 10:13 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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While I've not done any experiments personally, I'm inclined to agree with Malcolm's theory.

Post# 959616 , Reply# 18   9/28/2017 at 14:14 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        
mrb627

brucelucenta's profile picture
I think you are right on the money!

Post# 959644 , Reply# 19   9/28/2017 at 15:41 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        

MRB's explanation makes sense


Post# 959650 , Reply# 20   9/28/2017 at 15:53 by foraloysius (Groningen, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Actually I'm not so sure about that. The filter is under the drum right? When the machine starts spinning fast like supposed, it would mean the water moves outward, especially in the inner basket. If the lint would be redeposited on the laundry, the lint would have to get back through the tiny holes in the wash basket while there are centrifugal forces moving the water outward through those same holes. That doesn't make sense to me.

Post# 959665 , Reply# 21   9/28/2017 at 16:54 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Parts diagram does not show a filter.  Some direct-drive machines toward the end of production did not have a filter.  The Catalyst I have does not.


Post# 959667 , Reply# 22   9/28/2017 at 16:57 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        
mrb627

brucelucenta's profile picture
You are plenty smart and can articulate that well too.

Post# 959736 , Reply# 23   9/28/2017 at 20:34 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Neutral drain systems

combo52's profile picture
The lint is not flushing off the filter on the whirlpool and going back into the tub Lewis is right on this one Malcolm is not, sorry Malcolm

Post# 959753 , Reply# 24   9/28/2017 at 22:30 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Now that I think of it, the 2003 Whirlpool Gold GSQ9669L I have also has no filter.


Post# 959937 , Reply# 25   9/30/2017 at 16:23 by chetlaham (United States)        
Linting DD

Honestly, I don't think its the neutral drain but the ultra fast, short strokes which are the root cause of it. I remember over and over being lectured by Sears employees to never buy a single speed Kenmore because it will "chew up" clothes. Sears made sure the normal cycle never dropped a single high speed agitation sequence. In fact at one point in time even Whirlpool badged machines would switch to slow speed about half way to 2/3 through the normal cycles.

At first I never believed Kenmore relabeling the delicate cycle to normal (only thinking it was marketing 'hey, we have a heavy duty cycle others do not') but having used the Heavy Duty cycle thinking I could outsmart Sears and a Whirlpool which did fast on the normal cycle; I can confidently say that Whirlpool machines have to the the roughest by far on the market. Slow speed IS normal speed for a DD. Also for some reason new VMW Whirlpool agitator washers will pulse the agitator while filling.

Maytag DC on the other hand had extremely delicate agitation on high speed and relied more on water movement. Simply put the machines were not as rough and thus less linting.

New Speed Queens will most likely neutral drain because the design forces a separate pump- that and Id imagine spin draining would cause the items to bunch up on one side.




Post# 959938 , Reply# 26   9/30/2017 at 16:26 by chetlaham (United States)        
Correction

*Spin drain



Post# 959965 , Reply# 27   9/30/2017 at 20:04 by CleanteamofNY ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture

There is logic to the DD linting problems. The holes at the bottom of the tub near the agitator allowing wash/rinse water to be recirculated back into the inner tub with the loose lint being dislodged off the filter during the spin/drain cycle.

 

As the load is spun, the water pressure at the base of the tub is increasing while the tub is picking up speed, this is forcing water to backwash the lint filter and as the water level getting lower during pump out, lint is being reintroduced back onto the load from the holes at the bottom of the tub.

 


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Post# 960113 , Reply# 28   10/1/2017 at 21:23 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Neutral Drain WP DD Washer

combo52's profile picture

Hi Larry, the lint will not come off the lint filter and go up through the bottom basket holes for several reasons

 

1 this washer does not have a basket mounted filter.

 

2 the spinning water is being thrown out the side and bottom holes.

 

3 the amount of lint collected by these basket mounted filters is almost as insignificant as what is collected on a MT washers lint filter.

 

John L.


Post# 960852 , Reply# 29   10/5/2017 at 19:56 by CleanteamofNY ((Monroe, New York)        

cleanteamofny's profile picture

John, you are right!

 

I saw DD, not the model # and made an anus of myself generalizing that Sears did away with tub mounted lint filters for that era of washing machines. 

 

Thanks for enlighting me!


Post# 961480 , Reply# 30   10/9/2017 at 09:23 by mhorn (mount bethel pa)        
washer fix update

since everything works on washer except the neutral drain,, i took trans apart, i did not see anything broken,, i chickened out on fixing old trans,,, i put in a new trans and ......... its works great,, neutral drain works, and what a differnce on the lint mom washed two loads of clothes back to back and she said i got my washer back like it was new,, so from someone that has washed alot with whirlpool direct drive since early 90's and then second washer 2006 she and i now know if you hang clothes on line and you want no lint you must have a neutral drain on the top loader whirlpool/ kenmore washer working thanks




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