Thread Number: 72750  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
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Post# 961239   10/7/2017 at 22:12 by chetlaham (United States)        

Does anyone have information about these or when they will be released? I've been dieing to know more about them. Being Speed Queen I have a feeling I will be very impressed. I've been looking through their patents and they are taking this very seriously.

Post# 961242 , Reply# 1   10/7/2017 at 22:41 by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
Word around the campfire

It is going to have a lid lock, that locks only during spin. It’s likely going to have a bldc motor instead of a traditional split phase motor.

Post# 961272 , Reply# 2   10/8/2017 at 01:49 by chetlaham (United States)        

Darn... Any idea when its being released?

Post# 961275 , Reply# 3   10/8/2017 at 02:40 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

It's a shame that there will be a lid lock. Personal responsibility must be out of style completely nowadays.SMH

Post# 961285 , Reply# 4   10/8/2017 at 05:12 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Glad both my sister and I have 2017 sets! Employed the couldn't-be-easier lid switch hack on both washers. Wonder if the 2018s will have a neutral drain, as do SQ's in other parts of the globe?

Improvements I'd like to see on SQ top-loading washers:

1) Separate temperature for soak/prewash and main wash cycles. I like to soak loads of heavily-stained kitchen whites in lukewarm water, then wash in hot. Can't do that automatically with current SQs.

2) Detergent dispenser. This would come in handy when using the soak/prewash options. FAQ at the SQ website said, "Since the machine spins out water from soaking but does not rinse, there is enough detergent left in the clothes for the main wash."  Really?  Why, then, is there almost no detergent left in the rinse after the first spin of a regular cycle? Face it; one needs to return to the washer to add a second dose when machine advances to wash fill.


3) Timed bleach and fabric softener dispensers. Bleach should be added the last 4 minutes of the wash portion of a cycle; not during the soak/prewash or at the start of the cycle.  Those stain-eating enzymes in today's detergent need time to work before bleach is introduced.  Currently, you can't use fabric softener if you choose soak/prewash options because it will be dispensed into the main wash water.  Likewise, softener is wasted if you choose an automatic 2nd rinse, because it would have been dispensed during the first rinse.


Was impressed that SQ added cycle flexibility and other cycle-oriented features to their series 9 machines a couple of years ago.  Unfortunately, they didn't add the infrastructure (so to speak) to support those features.

This post was last edited 10/08/2017 at 06:00
Post# 961302 , Reply# 5   10/8/2017 at 07:43 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

And while they are at it how about porcelain tops and lids and zinc coated cabinets.

If Maytag sold their DC washers today, I don't think they would fetch the prices these machines do and you would get more for your money,..but we should just be thankful there is at least one maker left who still makes a traditional agitator washer.

Post# 961305 , Reply# 6   10/8/2017 at 07:58 by chetlaham (United States)        

@Agiflow2: Here is the thing, unless the law changed they can easily rid of the lidlock by using DC to brake motor. GE did this with their hydrowaves and it worked very well.

Post# 961307 , Reply# 7   10/8/2017 at 07:59 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I get the detergent dispenser concept, wanting them on all machines as well....

but for times when there is not one, when adding the prewash/soak to a cycle, you are to add double the detergent at the start....

this was very effective during the belt drive years of Whirlpool's 'SuperWash'...although this only offered a short soak and a partial drain, then refilled for the main wash....

even my 1985 FilterFlo with the 'Extra Cleaning Cycle' recommends the high concentration of detergent, only one main wash for this, but two complete spin sprays and rinses follow to remove all the detergent....

Post# 961310 , Reply# 8   10/8/2017 at 08:51 by mtn1584 (USA)        

Will they still fill to the top of the tub with water and have water level selections?

Post# 961319 , Reply# 9   10/8/2017 at 09:35 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Didn't the original F&P based cabrio washers use the motor to slow the tub down ?

Post# 961322 , Reply# 10   10/8/2017 at 09:44 by appnut (TX)        

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Eugene, I have a possible solution to the detergent dispensing issue with using soak/prewash and then programmed to go into the main wash.  Maytag offered a solution back in the day when they first offered this feature.  What about using the FS dispenser as dispenser for liquid detergent for the main wash?  Although I'm not sure the FS cup could be removed for easy cleaning as was the case for Maytags.


I think John has already stated the new 2018 models will also do a neutral drain like is done in other parts of the globe.   

Post# 961325 , Reply# 11   10/8/2017 at 10:00 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
2018 SQ Top Load Washers

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We are going to service training on these in the next two weeks and will report back what we learn.


I am hoping for neutral drain as we are running quit a few service calls on the current TL machines with out of balance and machine walking complaints when users use too much water for the load being washed and the load goes out of balance, this was always a big part of the vibration complaints we got with MT DC machines.


I do hope they do not go to a lid lock, consumers do not like lid locks.


I would like to see in the new TL washers, dual action agitators, neutral drain and slightly bigger holes in the bottom of the wash basket, Porcelain tops on W&Ds on high end models, and better dispensers for bleach and detergent and maybe detergent as Eugene mentioned.


Overall it will be interesting, I have said for years that I would never have any interest in owning a current SQ TL washer, it is simply too crude, it is better than a MTDC washer in several important aspects, but the class act is a SQ FL washer, the FL SQ has over twice the life expectancy and just does a much better job.


If the MT DC washer was still in production and offered a 5 year full warranty it would cost every bit of $1000.00


John L.

Post# 961329 , Reply# 12   10/8/2017 at 10:38 by henene4 (Germany)        
Lid lock

If its a quick unlocking system (not the bimetalic ones which take ~2 minutes to unlock) and is only active during spin portions (which by the way are all verry easily achieved things), I'd guess most wouldn't mind it verry much.

I am curious how and if they will achieve more economic operation. I'd hope for a recirculation system for a F&P EcoActive kind of wash process and a good spray rinse operation.
Actualy always wondered why none of the HE TLs would use a recirculated spray rinse system. Just fill with a gallon or two, kick on the recirculation and let the tub spin at variable speeds anywhere from 50-250rpm, for a few minutes, then drain, spin at high speed. Repeat 3-4 times. Could even be used for softner application that way. Or could enable quick and efficent sanitize options in TL if a heater was integrated.

Also hoping for higher spin speeds. If they (finally) switch to an inverter based drive unit they could achive verry precise OOB checking and thus enable spins comparable to the Unimatic.

Post# 961331 , Reply# 13   10/8/2017 at 10:52 by pumpkina (California)        

Thanks, John L.

You wrote that SQ TL "is better than a MTDC washer in several important aspects, but the class act is a SQ FL washer, the FL SQ has over twice the life expectancy and just does a much better job."

In what ways is the SQ better than the MTDC (Dependable Care?)

I thought that all front loaders suffered an inherent design flaw of having the central bearing arm (spider arm?) being the weak point, having to fight gravity ultimately unsuccessfully to spin clothes. What did SQ do to solve this problem?

Finally, I've read in general to avoid washers and dryers with electronic control boards due to their vulnerability to moisture, ease of damage, and expensive repair. What are you thoughts about SQ washers/dryers with electronic controls?



Post# 961333 , Reply# 14   10/8/2017 at 11:05 by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

Short of getting the board wet, the speed queen control boards are nearly indestructible. Their rear main bearings are very robust, so they fail very infrequently. When it does fail, it’s a pretty easy repair.

Post# 961360 , Reply# 15   10/8/2017 at 16:59 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

I can see having bigger holes on the bottom of the washbasket, but a dual action agitator ? This machine needs no such agitator. The flexvane works perfectly just the way it is. I am able to make full use of the basket and get good turnover. The last thing we need are more dual action agitators.

Post# 961361 , Reply# 16   10/8/2017 at 17:15 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Bigger holes on the bottom.... for what? to extract LESS water during the spin?

Gosh, I thought Speed Queen designers had much more technical knowledge than I have...

Post# 961364 , Reply# 17   10/8/2017 at 17:35 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

The Speed Queen i have AWN 432 could definitely benefit from some improvements. I wish these machines were better at rinsing for one and that they had at least 2 spray rinses for each spin. One 15 second spray simply does not cut it. It is Ok or permanent press but heavy cottons and towels forget it. I need three rinses.

Post# 961370 , Reply# 18   10/8/2017 at 18:20 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

"Bigger holes on the bottom.... for what? to extract LESS water during the spin?

Gosh, I thought Speed Queen designers had much more technical knowledge than I have... "

Seemed to work for WP/KM all those years regarding sand removal.

Post# 961372 , Reply# 19   10/8/2017 at 18:26 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

For sand yes... i mean, the bottom... but the lower part of the walls is better to use "slots" or curved cones.

Post# 961376 , Reply# 20   10/8/2017 at 19:16 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
2018 SQ Top Load Washers

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Bigger holes in the bottom of the tub diffidently improve performance in terms of getting rid of heavy sediment, but can be a mixed blessing as things like bobby pins can get through if they are too large.


When GE came out with the replacement for the FF washers they had huge holes in the bottom of the plastic wash basket, and compared to the FF spin drain [ and grit&lint redepositing machines ] these new neutral drain GE washers were a huge improvement, customers loved the fact they finally had lint and streak free clothing [ GE service manuals are full of comments about the problems they had with lint and streaking complaints they had with FF washers ] GE redesigned the hole pattern in their wash baskets in the late 60s to try and cope with this problem [ they ELIMINATED most of the holes the lower half of the basket side wall ] .


The dual action was the biggest improvement in conventional agitator washers in the history of agitator washers, they improved capacity, they improved turn over and best of all reduced clothing wear and damage. It goes without saying that the Load-Sensor agitator in DC MT washers was by far the best and most effective agitator MT ever put in an automatic washer.


Note; Pumkina I will be glad to answer some of your good questions if you put a name in your profile and a year you were born.


John L.

Post# 961378 , Reply# 21   10/8/2017 at 19:38 by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
speedqueen 2018 topload line

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i wonder if the model awn432 will be in the new line or will the controls be all electronics?

Post# 961401 , Reply# 22   10/8/2017 at 22:19 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

That is the thing though about turnover. The flex vane they are using now is perfectly fine for turnover. I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree about these machines needing a dual action agitator. I have steady rollover no matter what I wash in the SQ.

The super capacity belt drive Whirlpool washers seemed to do very well with the Surgilator. How much better does turnover need to be ?

Post# 961408 , Reply# 23   10/8/2017 at 23:10 by chetlaham (United States)        

My understanding is that these will no longer be allowed to deep fill, so a dual action agi will not work. From all that I have heard is that these will be some type of impeller.

I don't know what agitators SQ uses in their commercial machines, but Id imagine that a DA agi would be much more trouble prone in a commercial environment where overloading is the norm.

@Combo: The very first GEs after the FF did not have full sized holes in the tub, at least the large capacity machines. It was not until a few years latter they put giant holes at the bottom of the basket.

Post# 961439 , Reply# 24   10/9/2017 at 05:01 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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I thought I read in Speed Queen's FAQ section that only the Normal Eco cycle would not provide a complete fill beginning in 2018. My 2017 Series 9 fills completely for the wash in all cycles, including Normal Eco (albeit that cycle has, for all intents and purposes, a cold fill no matter what temp is selected by the user).

The current agitator does a fine job, but rollover is hampered significantly by the indexing of the tub. Mine indexes nearly a quarter-turn on a full load. The load immediately rolls over much more efficiently when I grab the tub to prevent indexing. Some here claim this happens while the tub brake is being 'broken in', but over two month later, mine is still indexing like crazy. In fact, it indexes as much as a 1970s Westinghouse, which was designed to do so.

The AWN542 I had a few years ago indexed a bit less than one-eighth of a turn, which was not enough to negatively affect rollover.

Post# 961451 , Reply# 25   10/9/2017 at 06:40 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
2018 SQ Top Load Washers

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Hi Chet, I really dough that SQ TL washers will go to an impeller, But who knows, want to make a bet ?


I am not certain when GE went to the very large holes in the bottom of the plastic wash tub, but I have one [ super capacity dual action agitator ] now in the shop that we are restoring for the museum that has them, I guess you are correct if you think they did not have them at first, why don't you try to find out when they made this change and why? I never remember seeing an early one with small holes and we were putting transmissions in the early T models left and right, GE was giving out transmissions to anyone that would install them for the first 7 years of washer ownership.


I know they reverted to smaller holes because of pump clogging problems because the large holes allowed too much heavy sediment to settle into the tub drain hose and clog the drain pump.



Duel action agitators greatly improve turn over of large loads and therefore allow more laundry to be washed and increase water efficiency, CRs even called them the biggest advance in top loading washers in over 25 years in the early 80s.


No I have never seen them in commercial TL washers because they are so effective that manufactures do not want to encourage overloading and they are one additional thing that can wear out. [ top load washers are pretty much dead in commercial use now anyway ]


I can and almost always wash 10-12 pairs of my work jeans [ size 32W 34-36 I ] in a WP SC DD washer, A SQ will barely turn over this load and when I have tried loads like this you can see that some of the jeans are visibly beat up from the agitator and a standard large capacity MT [ well I won't go there ]


John L.

Post# 961465 , Reply# 26   10/9/2017 at 08:14 by chetlaham (United States)        

What will the water usage be? I was under the impression that the 2018 regs basically force about the same water usage as a front loader- hence my bet on an impeller- but honestly its just a guess.

The models that I know have the same holes are 1998-1999 large cap machines. Its possible the small holes came latter (ie after 1997) but I am not sure.

As the pumps on GE washers those were a joke, along with the rectangular drain tube. Saw maintenance moan and groan about slow pump out.

The DA DD certainly holds more, thats for sure. In my current Queen I find myself running an extra load as apposed to my old Whirlpool built Maytag. FWIW one reason I left it behind was water leaking out during the delicate cycle. Often in the first drain the washer would shift directly into spin causing water to leak out onto the basement floor.

Post# 961494 , Reply# 27   10/9/2017 at 11:31 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

That is the problem with DAA. They encourage overloading and forcing the laundry down to the bottom vanes. I'm not saying a dual action isn't better all I am saying is it is not needed in these machines with a shallower and wider basket. The current agitators are fine.

Post# 961498 , Reply# 28   10/9/2017 at 12:02 by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
New Agitator

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I believe this is the new agitator coming in 2018.


  View Full Size
Post# 961500 , Reply# 29   10/9/2017 at 12:22 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
New Agitator

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Cool Malcolm, well it looks like the clunky old transmission is gone, I would guess that the machine will operate more like a GE hydro-wave now.


Anyone that wants one of the old style SQ TLers better get off your ass and buy it fast.


We were warned a few months ago that the current TL washers were going to be in short supply toward the end of the year.


John L.

Post# 961502 , Reply# 30   10/9/2017 at 12:23 by henene4 (Germany)        
Verry interesting

But apparently no dispensers.

Appears these machine become more and more of a compromise. Don't think they'll get another redesign before a complete new machine base will be developed.

Post# 961509 , Reply# 31   10/9/2017 at 12:54 by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        

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If the new agitator and current agitator would fit the same drive bell.
Might be able to swap the new for a wavy vane.

I want to say that the mechanical timer model is gone at the end of the year, too.

Yeah, it might be time to buy a 2017 model, if the changes are too dramatic. Watching and waiting at this point.


Post# 961519 , Reply# 32   10/9/2017 at 14:00 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Man those fins are super shallow on the base, but am looking forward to the new machines in any case. Maybe Alliance will get the top load HE concept right from the start.

This post was last edited 10/09/2017 at 16:23
Post# 961552 , Reply# 33   10/9/2017 at 16:46 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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I am going to hedge my bet and say "Glad I got a 2017!" It may, indeed, be the last of the true vintage-style washers, for better or worse.

Having said that, I'm definitely curious as to what changes are afoot.

Thanks for the photo of what may be the new agitator, Malcolm. John, we wait with baited breath for your return from the SQ service sessions.

Post# 961558 , Reply# 34   10/9/2017 at 17:13 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Can't help but wonder if that is indeed the new agitator, low will the water levels be? Unless it rotates 360 like a pulsator . All just speculation , but it has me curious now more than ever. Another thing, will they still call these new machines "commercial Heavy Duty ? Time will tell.

Post# 961565 , Reply# 35   10/9/2017 at 17:51 by johnrk (Houston)        
2018 washers

I just bought my 432 and matching dryer a couple of weeks ago; my old Kenmore dryer died after 18 years and I replaced the crappy Frigidaire FL at the same time. I'd have looked at the FL Speed Queen but I didn't want to spend the extra money for it,and I've been happy 20+ years ago with top loaders.

I looked through all the SQ FAQ's when I was researching before buying, and they were saying the mech timer would be gone in 2018 because it could no longer accommodate the new governmental demands. My local dealer said they will all have the electronic panel. I'm still unsure whether I should've bought the 432 over the electronic model. This one came with a 3-year warranty, the electronic panel model comes with a 5-year. And it cost only $20 more. But--the crappy Frigidaire FL that I just ditched gave trouble with the electronic panel for the 4 years I owned it. Maybe the SQ panel is indeed that much better.

Let's face it: the day is coming when all our machines are going to be front load just like most of the rest of the world. It's the most energy efficient and the most water efficient. The problem today is that most of them are built so poorly. Speed Queen will have a bright future if they concentrate on durability and quality and leave the silly gimmicks to others.

Post# 961574 , Reply# 36   10/9/2017 at 18:13 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.

Post# 961599 , Reply# 37   10/9/2017 at 20:38 by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        
This has zero chance of happening

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but I dream of Speed Queen really embracing top loader tradition, and bringing back the suds saver. I can even imagine the extra button on the touch panel: "Reuse Wash Water" or something like that.


While I dream the impossible dream, I might as well add the dream for old time colors. I'm so tired of current appliance colors, and yearn for, say, a bright, sunny yellow.

Post# 961626 , Reply# 38   10/9/2017 at 23:01 by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

If I could improve my washer I would wish for a good lint filtering system, some loads that I don't separate fabrics.....oh my goodness. I bought a brush to sweep off the extra lint, still line dry most loads. I hate, hate, washing only 2 or 3 items because of the water usage so I save them till I have a load ready.
Also, a longer spray rinse between the wash and rinse cycle would go a long way in avoiding a 2nd rinse. A load of towels always takes two rinses, sometimes 3 depending on the detergent.

I purchased a 432 model a couple of years ago. I still feel the pro's still outweigh the cons on this washer. A friend of ours bought one also, and it tore up her delicates something awful, I looked at her bras and it looked to be the agitator catching the bra straps between the base and the vanes of the agitator. I recommended to buy a wash bag and put them in there, she's had no problems since. It tore up some of her nice clothes and I felt bad that I recommend the machine to her. Needless to say her feelings toward Speed Queen differ from mine. The new agitator may solve the problem.

I'm not a fan of neutral drains, feel that they pulled the dirty and soapy water down through the clothes, hence the necessary spray rinses.

All in all, its a good machine, though it can be expensive to operate as I experienced with my Dad's illness this summer.

Post# 961628 , Reply# 39   10/9/2017 at 23:12 by johnrk (Houston)        
Suds Saver

Perhaps it's because I grew up on the Texas Gulf Coast, but I've never seen a 'suds saver' down here - not growing up, not now. It always made sense to me with wringer washers that one would run multiple loads through hot, soapy water. However, draining that water into a big open tub to cool it down, then feeding it back on to more clothing, just didn't seem right. I can remember as a kid seeing Kenmore machines in the catalogue talking about 'suds saver' and couldn't understand it. For me (and just speaking for me) if water usage got that critical, I'd just go with front loading and be done with it. Would rather wash my stuff in clean water.

Post# 961639 , Reply# 40   10/10/2017 at 01:20 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I've never seen a suds saver washer in person here in TN or AL either.  I remember reading about them in the Sears catalog but that's all.

Post# 961663 , Reply# 41   10/10/2017 at 07:03 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
A Better Lint Filtering System In SQ TL Washers

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Hi Barry, the new SQ TL washers will have neutral drain and will leave a lot less lint and crap in the clothing.


I don't know how anybody can look a a neutral drain TL perforated basket and think that all the dirty just drains THROUGH the clothing, LOOK at what is actually happening, the clothing is suspended in the water as the drain starts, the water level goes down slightly faster in the outer tub. 90% of the washer is leaving through the side holes of the wash basket carrying lint and  dirt with it. { this system is not perfect, but far better than the alternative ]


Same washer spin drain: everything starts spinning, clothes are heavier that water, clothes get pushed to the sides of the wash basket from centrifugal force, over 1/2 of all dirty water is forced under pressure THROUGH your clean clothing forcing your CLEAN clothing to become a gaint lint and grit filter.


This phenomenon has been proved again and again, every manufacturer that ever built Spin Drain TL Perforated Basket machines had problems with lint redisposing and streaking of clean clothing, you can read in the service manuals and see the things they did to the design of the machines to try to minimize this affect. [ you can read the thread hear about the guy in Pennsylvania with his linting problems that they had when his WP built DD washer stopped neutral draining, and how he solved the problem ]


Fact; every TL washer manufacturer who had a machine that was capable of doing a ND DID SO, the only reason SD washers were ever built is because they were CHEAPER to build as they did not have to do another complicated function. [ every TL washer built World Wide will soon be Neutral Drain 98.9% are ND now ]


Hi John, Suds-Savers where the water was stored in a separate tub really worked very well and made a lot of sense.


First since you would almost always start with HOT water you want it to cool somewhat for the next load or two, and having the water sit in the laundry tub for 20 minutes or longer really let the heavy soil settle in the bottom of the sink [ anyone that has ever used a SS can tell you that you always end rinsing this soil down the drain between every load.


Also the better WP-KM SS washers that had the great Self-Cleaning lint filters trapped a lot of lint during the wash and rinse parts of the cycle and automatically pumped this lint down the rinse drain hose, so it did not SAVE the lint.


These are great improvements on using the water over and over in a WW, people that had these WP. KM,  SS washers really loved them, which is part of the reason that WP-KM sold more than 90% of all the SS automatic washers ever sold. In the neighborhood I live in literally almost every house had a KM SS washer when I was a kid, and one neighbor after another was really upset when they eventually had to replace these washers and could not get another SS washer.


I think that most other manufactures only built and sold SS washers because Kenmore and Whirlpool forced them to because many customers wanted this feature.


When buying a new KM washer say in 1968, paying the $10 for the SS option saved enough money in the 8-12 years the washer was likley to last in a family of four essentially gave you a FREE AUTOMATIC washer compared to your poor neighbor with a Non-SS washer [ imagine if there was a $100 option on a new car in 1968 that saved enough money to pay you back the complete cost of owning the car, EVERYONE and their brother would have bought that $100 option. As with many thrifty educated people things like SS washers helped many consumers to become more wealthy than their neighbors.


John L.

Post# 961698 , Reply# 42   10/10/2017 at 09:57 by chetlaham (United States)        

We may have to agree to disagree here. In my experience its neutral drain washers that leave more fuzz and junk behind, though not by much. I've seen post FF GEs do neutral drains where all the stuff floating in the water just settles on the clothes rather than being flung out through the holes as the water rises up. The big benefit of neutral drain comes in the ability to cheapen a washer, which is why I think it caught on so much. You need a clutch or at least a beefier clutch, beefier driver system, along with a re-designed tub cap and overflow system. Ie, if a post FF GE spin drains water leaks out via the overflow tub. Same reason for ridding breaks and going lid-lock, its cheaper to remove parts and/or design them around less stress load.

Post# 961711 , Reply# 43   10/10/2017 at 10:59 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture

Hi Chet


I would Like To see a GE FF do a neutral drain.


You are correct that a lid lock eliminates having a tub break and probably saves money building a machine although it often increases problems, the trash brands like WH and WCI started using lid locks early on.


I certainly do not agree with the rest of your analysis on spin drain vs Neutral Drain TL washer, and problem is you have no credibility as we don't have any idea if you have ever seen, worked on, or have any first hand knowledge about washing machines.


At this point it is up to you to prove your ideas as I have seen a few hundred real life examples to prove my points, including every major American manufacturer of TL washers putting this problem in print, and all of them trying to take steps to address consumer complaints about excessive linting related to trying to spin drain a washer full of water and clothing.


Maytag even put in their advertising how much cleaner your clothing will be when they were promoting their Norge-Tag washers compared their DC machines, because the way the NT spun and drained out the dirty water as it was not spun out though the clothing nearly as much.


One of my favorite signs here at work says,


                                           I Would Agree With You, But Then We Would Both Be Wrong


John L.

This post was last edited 10/10/2017 at 11:22
Post# 961712 , Reply# 44   10/10/2017 at 10:59 by henene4 (Germany)        
Neutral drain cheaper?

As far as I understand dosen't any TL with typical reversing motor have a clutch? Simply because the motor is fixed speed by winding?

A neutral drain requires way more components. You either need a transmission system that allows the motor to run while empty if the pump is motor driven or an entirely seperate drain pump. You still have a clutch to my knowledge.
Spindrain is just a clutch, optimized for more slippage.
Sure the motor power needs to be ever so little higher, but even that can be compensated via the clutch.

Lid locks are cheaper then brakes, yes. The only way to stop a 700rpm drum in seconds notice is a heavy duty break.
Given that there is no use in opening the lid while the spinning is going (can't add laundry during a spin, can you), locking the lid while spinning is far more economical then the breaks.

Post# 961717 , Reply# 45   10/10/2017 at 11:22 by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
FS Dispenser

mrb627's profile picture
Since the agitator pictured above still has an FS Dispenser in it, it is likely a deep fill rinse will still be available. That's a good thing...


Post# 961724 , Reply# 46   10/10/2017 at 12:00 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        
spin draining

brucelucenta's profile picture
Upon thinking about this over and over, it really does make sense that spin draining would stir up everything and promote lots of linting on clothes. Whirlpool/Kenmore were actually the very first top load washer that had a true perforated tub that filled the outer tub too. I always thought that Whirlpool/Kenmore did have a much better set up by draining all the water as the clothing settled closer to the bottom and then spun out. It would promote much less linting and would actually be better on the bearings too, since the clothing is concentrated at the bottom of the tub and doesn't have as much leverage and stress on the bearings. The GE FF in particular seemed to promote more linting in washing anyway and then spin draining just stirred it all up through the clothes as it spun and drained. So neutral draining does seem to make a lot of sense. The heavy duty braking systems some machines had would have to be stressful on the machines too. A lid lock during spin makes perfect sense too.

This post was last edited 10/10/2017 at 13:53
Post# 961725 , Reply# 47   10/10/2017 at 12:01 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.

Post# 961732 , Reply# 48   10/10/2017 at 12:30 by chetlaham (United States)        
Neutral drain

"As far as I understand dosen't any TL with typical reversing motor have a clutch? Simply because the motor is fixed speed by winding?"

There are many top-loaders without clutches. Excluding the past (Unimatic) in this convo, GE did away with their clutches in about 2005, and most new toploads have no clutch at all. In part this is due to neutral draining, and also in part due to PSC /VFD motors which do not need to hit 1720rmp (or which ever) in 1/4 a second to drop the centrifugal switch.

"I certainly do not agree with the rest of your analysis on spin drain vs Neutral Drain TL washer, and problem is you have no credibility as we don't have any idea if you have ever seen, worked on, or have any first hand knowledge about washing machines."

Easy way to distance yourself there.

"At this point it is up to you to prove your ideas as I have seen a few hundred real life examples to prove my points, including every major American manufacturer of TL washers putting this problem in print, and all of them trying to take steps to address consumer complaints about excessive linting related to trying to spin drain a washer full of water and clothing."

If the problem was so great, then why did so many washer continue to spin drain, some like Maytag even boasting it? I have no doubt this is what you have personally seen and it certainly is not an invalid observation or conclusion, but in my experience based on home use of many machines over many years I have achieved better results with spin draining. That is not to say everyone has experienced the same.

Post# 961741 , Reply# 49   10/10/2017 at 12:58 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
in case your wondering, a DualAction works very well in a Speed Queen...and will turn over a larger load with more ease, and gentler too!....

  View Full Size
Post# 961745 , Reply# 50   10/10/2017 at 13:39 by henene4 (Germany)        

Yeah, exactly, old motor generations needed a clutch, period. And the SQ has such a motor.

The Hydrowave design by GE had a seperate drain pump. Additional part -> cost.
Especially back 30+ years, an additional motor would have been a great point of cost. Further these did not use the reversing motor to dial between wash and spin but used a mode shifter instead.

WP DDs had a transmision internal system for neutral drain. A part that reasonably often failed and was reasonably hard to repair. That is cost.

Let me put it in a more easy to understand context: Imagine converting a SQ spin drain machine into a neutral drain.

You add an additional seperate pump motor. That is cost, plus timer adaptation.

You adapt the transmission for a neutral drain. Well, that is complicated and expnsive as well.

I don't see the SQ getting any cheaper by just makeing it neutral drain without creating an entirely new platform, what incedently GE did around the time you mentioned.

On the reverse, any machine with an inverter based motor could for sure spindrain. Look at the old Cabrio sense and pretreat phase, or the LG WaveForce. If they can spin a tub of water while washing, they could do so while draining.

But don't. Why? Certanly not because its cheaper...

Post# 961751 , Reply# 51   10/10/2017 at 14:06 by chetlaham (United States)        
Speed Queen neutral drain

You are supporting my point to a degree, actually. Yes- you can't make a Queen that much cheaper without changing the platform. But when you do change the platform, said engineer does not have to take the stress from spin-draining into account. That saves cost in many areas.

Also in terms of getting a VFD to spin-drain, yes it can be done, but thats more logic in the control board that needs to be programmed and more that can go wrong.

Post# 961755 , Reply# 52   10/10/2017 at 14:22 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
why in the world would you have to adapt the transmission in a Speed Queen if you wanted to convert it to a neutral drain with a separate pump?....

since the Australian market has them.....meaning they have a neutral drain and use the same transmission....

seems they would be cutting/saving cost by building one machine for several markets....

new platform? timer? transmission design?

most likely the newer units will be all touch pad, adding one more program to a cycle isn't going to be all that much of a hassle...

Post# 961757 , Reply# 53   10/10/2017 at 14:26 by henene4 (Germany)        

More logic in the board that could go wrong? Read up on ROM systems, my friend.

Yeah, but with a new machine platform, it's no longer a cheaper then thing. You'd be designing an entire new product, with an entirely new prcie point.

And a new platform would most certanly use a modeshifter and a highly efficent inverter based drive system. Not because of the way it drains, but because these part are state of the art in terms of things they can do and their price in general.
And again, new platform machines could certanly spindrain without modification. BUT THEY DONT:

No engeneer would redesign a new platform around the draining system.

Yogitunes: That was a hypothetical scenarion to disproof the "neutral drain s cheaper" argument.

Post# 961764 , Reply# 54   10/10/2017 at 14:41 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
better yet, check out the Australian machines.....

they already neutral drain, added to our US counterparts....

the main motor stops agitation, pump removes the water, and then the motor is energized and reverses, causing spin....

until we hear from JohnL, who knows Speed Queen inside and out, I don't see Alliance making a huge change all at once....

besides, I am sure they will perfect it more than the current manufacturers have done in the past.....

Post# 961769 , Reply# 55   10/10/2017 at 15:07 by chetlaham (United States)        

"why in the world would you have to adapt the transmission in a Speed Queen if you wanted to convert it to a neutral drain with a separate pump?...."

You do not- unless you are building a new design from the ground up for cost efficiency reasons.

"new platform? timer? transmission design?"

I guess we have not considered GE, Whirlpool, Frigidaire... ie, DD to VMW.

"until we hear from JohnL, who knows Speed Queen inside and out, I don't see Alliance making a huge change all at once...."

I am referring to washers in general. A design that has to take spin-drain stress will always cost more than one that only has wet clothing to spin.

"More logic in the board that could go wrong? Read up on ROM systems, my friend."

And who programs said ROM? The programmer not only has to come up with the right sequence for agitation, distribution, ramp, out of balance, ect ect, but must also perfect a spin drain sequence.

Post# 961779 , Reply# 56   10/10/2017 at 15:42 by johnrk (Houston)        
re suds saving & Staber

'combo' - I hear what you are saying about those 'suds saver' machines. Perhaps it was just something for people up north. Plus, where I grew up and live again, we hve no basements, being too close to the Gulf. Certainly in my utility room now there would be no room for a big open tub.

I'm afraid that re-washing clothes with used water reminds me of the old days when several family members would share the same bath water. Fortunately in my area, we just weren't that desperate. And again, these days people can do better by just going with a front loader.

Does anyone on here know what ever happened to the Staber washer? I actually considered buying one of those a decade ago but the shipping cost was excessive where I live. I thought there were so many good and innovative ideas there, but I got the impression the company ran into some financial and/or legal troubles.

Post# 961782 , Reply# 57   10/10/2017 at 15:58 by pumpkina (California)        

It's my understanding that a two piece agitator is more effective in cleaning clothes than a single piece agitator.

If that's true, why does Speed Queen use a single piece agitator?

Post# 961809 , Reply# 58   10/10/2017 at 19:21 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Speed Queen uses a single piece agitator because I am sure they found it to be perfectly adequate to get clothes clean.

I had a DD super capacity Kenmore washer with a triple action DAA . Those agitators work well in the taller narrower tubs.

I also had a DD super capacity Whirlpool prior to that with a 5 vane Surgilator with the pull off barrel for the lint filter.

That agitator also rolled very large loads over with out problems. Slower yes but still circulated the loads.

I like the wash motion of the flex vane. It causes certain loads to behave much like an old DC Maytag or Kenmore. Lots of sloshing with bulky loads. Things get stirred up quite nicely with that agitator.

If the picture Malcolm posted is the new agitator,.. how will it possibly work ? Those vanes on the bottom are almost non existent. How high could it fill up ?

Martin you bring up a good point also. Speed Queen knows what it's customer base expects I am sure . I don't believe they will let down repeat buyers with an inferior product. This is why we buy their products and they know it.

Speed Queen wins by default because they have no competition in making old school school laundry equipment. Whirlpool and GE lost their way with top load washers. Regression not progression.

In any case, whatever Alliance does I wish them every success.

This post was last edited 10/10/2017 at 19:51
Post# 961821 , Reply# 59   10/10/2017 at 20:09 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
seems they might be going back to the solid vane....been there before


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Post# 961875 , Reply# 60   10/11/2017 at 02:33 by Huebschman (Quebec, CA)        

DAA do recirculate clothes efficiently. However, I need to see how my clothes get washed. DAA will have problems with large piece of clothing. I remember opening the lid (yes, I had to bypass it) to see how my winter coat was getting washed. The coat was buttoned and zipped and it lay the way I put it in the machine for the entire wash... with one sleeve filled with air out of the water. It never turned over as it could never pull the coat down in the water. DAA were introduced first in laundromat to compensate for people overfilling the machines (less strain on trans/motor).

SQ has the same type agitator (minus the flex vane) that my mom used to have on her late 60's washer. If the largest manufacturer of washing machines still use this type of agitator... It's because it is efficient as it will pull everything down in the water.

Some will say it ruins clothes. I say... Buy quality clothes. I don't remember anybody complaining in the 70's, 80's or 90's.

Post# 961877 , Reply# 61   10/11/2017 at 02:38 by chetlaham (United States)        

@Agiflow: I agree. Speed Queen knows what customers want. They knew what I wanted and then some. I have NOT used a BETTER washer outside of two vintage machines (Supersurgilator belt drive and 1970's Maytag Helical) and if they put a $2000 price tag on my machine I still would have bought it. In fact I am even musing with the idea of buying a TL SQ now for the feature. I have no doubt Speed Queen will make a serious effort despite the restricted water usage.

I agree that GE and Whirlpool have lost their way, but in all fairness part of that comes from energy regs. With restricted water use there is only so much you can do- you practically need to re-invent the top washer. Manufacturers wish they did not have to go that route.

But going back to the agi- if thats it then I have a feeling SQ will use those veins to "stir" the clothes; intermittent pules in between stirring to roll them over, trying to mimick a front load but on a vertical scale. I have to admit thats very simple yet ingenious. In that case I can certainly see the need for a VFD.

Post# 961878 , Reply# 62   10/11/2017 at 02:44 by chetlaham (United States)        

And I forgot to address this:

"Lid locks are cheaper then brakes, yes. The only way to stop a 700rpm drum in seconds notice is a heavy duty break.
Given that there is no use in opening the lid while the spinning is going (can't add laundry during a spin, can you), locking the lid while spinning is far more economical then the breaks."

Only way? Then how did a Hydrowave brake without an actually brake assembly? I have a feeling people are selectively reading my posts :P

Post# 961879 , Reply# 63   10/11/2017 at 03:09 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

As far as I know they are still in business.

Post# 961885 , Reply# 64   10/11/2017 at 04:14 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Not always a lid lock eliminates the tub brake...

But it helps reducing the visits to the court. Millennials, millennials... argh!

Post# 961895 , Reply# 65   10/11/2017 at 05:58 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

mralex's profile picture
Blaming millennials for everything seems rather unfair

Post# 961942 , Reply# 66   10/11/2017 at 12:12 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

No, when you have a collection of more than 3000 emails (in 1 year) with horrendous millennials questions...

Like "do I really need to rinse the clothes?"

Post# 961947 , Reply# 67   10/11/2017 at 12:42 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        

brucelucenta's profile picture
It will be very interesting to see what kind of machine Speed Queen comes up with this year.

Post# 961992 , Reply# 68   10/11/2017 at 15:28 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
These Millennial comments are tiring.
If you all hate the so much....


Post# 962000 , Reply# 69   10/11/2017 at 16:40 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

....and now back to our regularly scheduled program -2018 Speed Queen top load models.

Post# 962016 , Reply# 70   10/11/2017 at 18:37 by washman (Butler, PA)        

washman's profile picture



Not me!

Post# 962025 , Reply# 71   10/11/2017 at 19:25 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture

wait.....Gays can reproduce now?

is this part of that Trans-genderation thingy?

Post# 962029 , Reply# 72   10/11/2017 at 19:46 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
The Millennials and Generation Z'ers I work with are bright, creative, enterprising, and work smarter rather than harder. Their priorities are sometimes as different from mine (born 1959) as my sister's (born 1947) were from our parents' (born 1914 and 1921). And that's as it should be. Any group that isn't different enough to spark the ire of the ones who came before them isn't doing its job.👍

Post# 962035 , Reply# 73   10/11/2017 at 20:45 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

"Does the SCAW2GEN requires to be connected to the power outlet for use? If not, why doesn't it come with internal batteries to save electricity? The same question with the hoses, do I really need to connect the fill and drain hose to operate the equipment?"

Honestly i wanted to send a not-so-polite reply, but of course i would never do that. then I went to the customer profile and discovered she was born in 1999.

People nowadays are so dumb that think that if you use a battery it is saving electricity, and protecting the environment as the device is not plugged in "during" the use.

They don't really realize that a battery is just a "container" for electricity and you need to "fill that container". Protect the environment, with batteries? Oi? Hola? Hello?

About the hoses.... What the f-word? What is the washer going to do? take water from the air and then evaporate the water back to the air?

And the other email.... why rinse? with the technology we have nowadays (because everything pre 2000 is outdated and super obsolete and miraculously we started doing witchcraft and magic just like Harry Potter exactly on jan 1st 2000) washers should wash.

I won't mention the literally hundreds of emails from people that saw a machine (on Facebook) that folds the clothes and they ask us to make something similar and cheaper.

They literally want a machine that the user flip the dirty laundry basket in it and the washer will sort, wash dry, iron, forld and put the clothes in the closet. And of course controlled by an app in their iPhones.

Talkign about apps.... Yes, some customers ask us why we don't make a spin dryer with an app, because it would be EASIER to operate if it could be controlled by their smartphones.

What can be easier than close the lid to start and open the lid to stop? We even got rid of the timer because of that... no locks, not switches, not buttons... nothing. literally just lower the lid to start a spin dryer and lift it to stop.

Again, back to the millennials... I even posted here "ipsis litteris" a phone call i received from a customer. I listened to the call recording while typing the conversation here at AWO. Why user manuals? Why shipping brackets to protect the product during shipping? Millennials complain even for that! because cutting 2 zip ties is so "last century".

Should i start designing a spin dryer that comes in a box like those life rafts? you just jerk a cord and the box opens itself, the spin dryer goes jumping to it's installation place, the power plug finds the outlet and plugs itself then two mechanical arms will collect the clothes and put them in the drum? Oh, and the box and shipping material will also fold itself as compact as possible and then walk to the curb and jump in the dumpster.

Why user manuals? Believe it or not the same customer felt OFFENDED because of a user manual. again the same excuse starting with "this is 2017". Who needs a user manual in 2017? Of course we know how to do everything, we're smarter than a spin dryer, we don't need to read the manual and if something goes wrong because we did something that we shouldn't do we can simply sue the manufacturer. It's easier, and more profitable than reading a manual.

So yes, millennials are the disaster in our lives. Some years ago, because of them we (designers and engineers) had to run the extra mile to offer more technology. Now we were literally forced to dumb down our products. We could and we can do wonders, we are creative enough to "create", but we can't do that because this F-word generation will continue lazy and will continue expecting more and will sue us as never before.

mid 80s to mid 90's one would use common sense and sue a manufacturer IF we did something really wrong that resulted in losses (from a damaged shirt to a personal injury). For example suing a manufacturer because of a dog or a cat that was killed or injured because it was "washed" in a washer was unthinkable. If a "client" looked for an attorney, much before the process start, the first thing the attorney would say is "i won't get your case because you will never win, that's stupid"

Nowadays, we have to put stickers "do not spin dry dogs, cats, birds, etc..." and we could be still sued and we would have a super hard time explaining to the judge that a washing machine is made to wash clothes, not pets, the instructions are very clear on the user manual and we also put stickers, just in case, on the product lid.

The new sticker we added this week (9th sticker) was "do not remove stickers before reading and understanding them" because the new reason used by attorneys is that their clients didn't know they should read the safety stickers or it wasn't clear that that instruction was really serious.

For this same reason we find peanut bags with a huge alert "contains peanuts" or egg gartons saying "contains eggs" or milk gallons saying "contains milk".

Milleninals don't know knives cut... next time you go to a store, just go to the cutlery aisle and start reading the boxes... "knifes are sharp and can cause injuries - they can cut!" WOW, really? I didn't know knives cut.... did they start making knives that cut recently? Impressive!

Post# 962045 , Reply# 74   10/11/2017 at 22:19 by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
I too, am fed up!

As someone born in the year 2000 and who attends high school, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

My generation is a lump of lazy, inpatient, entitled, know-it-alls. Why do you think that shipping companies now feel the need to put their database online so that impatient people can stare at it, no matter how long one stares it the tracking data, the item isn't coming any sooner. I also remember seeing something about landlords coming for a 6 month inspection and finding half the light bulbs burnt out and not replaced because their millenial tennents don't know how to replace them or care to learn.(LEFTY Loosy, RIGHTY Tighty!!!) I think part of the problem lies in the lack of critical thinking taught by parents and educators as well as the fact that math and science now outweigh history as a component of schooling. Historical education teaches common sense and practical knowledge, math and science seldom do.

People of my generation are often more swayed by emotion than logic and facts by comparison to previous generations.

As I have mentioned many times, I am autistic, I'm rather proud of that fact because I look around myself and think, "That's supposed to be normal, thank God I'm not." While others in my generation cannot swap a light bulb, I am rebuilding a carburetor on a late 1960s Toro Power-Handle with Snowhound 20" attachment. By these standards, who really are the crazy ones?

Post# 962057 , Reply# 75   10/12/2017 at 02:18 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

If you're putting stickers on products that say "Do not spin dry dogs, cats, birds..." then your problem is the legal system. An element of stupidity has inhabited any group or generation you'd care to name. For every email you receive that bitches about having to cut two zip-ties, there are many you don't hear from who understand why the zip-ties need to be there.

"People of my generation are often more swayed by emotion than logic and facts by comparison to previous generations." This is actually far more true of Baby Boomers than Generation Z.


Certainly we can find common ground in this: Disdain for the next generation has always existed.


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Post# 962058 , Reply# 76   10/12/2017 at 02:18 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

It won't surprise me at all if speed queen comes up with a washer that we (normal people with commonsense) will be desperate, crying and banging our heads on the wall.

Post# 962059 , Reply# 77   10/12/2017 at 02:24 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Oh, and of course, with bells and whistles. Because nowadays it has to beep, it has to have several fancy names like "tru something" "power whatever" or a series or letters technology".

Add the words Professional, Commercial or Turbo, you sell 50% more.

If it cleans, that's a different story. who cares about that anyway?

And guess what... if you don't do "crap", your competitors will take you out of the market.

We have a few months before we discover what is Speed Queen really doing, but again, don't be surprised if the new model is zillions of times worse than the 2017 models.

Post# 962060 , Reply# 78   10/12/2017 at 02:44 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

Thomas: Appending meaningless, fancy names or features to products is not a 'nowadays' trend.  One need only view the vintage ads in POD to see this has always been the case.  The "bullshit factor" has existed since the advent of marketing; only the words have changed/evolved.  Fifty years ago, manufacturers sought to increase sales by using words like 'scientific' or calling their product 'Lady Kenmore' or 'Flair Custom Imperial.' Today, the buzzwords are (surprise, surprise) 'Turbo' and 'iWhatever.'

This post was last edited 10/12/2017 at 03:05

Post# 962062 , Reply# 79   10/12/2017 at 03:01 by chetlaham (United States)        

Could be, time will tell, but you have to remember there is only so much you can do around a concept designed around lots of water. I have a feeling in the least the longevity aspect will remain. I also hope Speed Queen makes their new machines more service friendly. In the current Speed Queens if you loose the transmission or bearings you basically have to scrap the whole machine. Its a nightmare to change out. But if SQ comes out with something like Whirlpool did, I can picture them winning over many dealers.

And yahhh, I do agree that a lot of machines on the market are nothing but a bunch of gimmicks, chimes and glossy appeal. But at the same time remember that their are plenty of folks buying basic Whirlpool washers who have the means to buy otherwise, so not everyone is falling for it like they used to.

If Speed Queen plays this right, they could win A LOT of customers on many levels. The longevity aspect might actually force Whirlpool to do extended warranties or make more durable machines. And oh- Its just a wish, but if president Trump could visit Alliance in Ripon Wisconsin for being American made... :) Sales will absolutely sky rocket; with GE, Whirlpool and others making note.

It might be a dream, but I long for the day when I can set foot on the Sears, JCPenney or Home Depot sales floor and purchase a one-knob wonder from any manufacturer that will last 30+ years, 5 year unlimited warranty, stainless steal wash basket & steel outer tub, all metal parts, easy service and no lid-lock.

We can make laundry great again!!!!!!!!!!!! (A wish hoping to come true)

Post# 962069 , Reply# 80   10/12/2017 at 05:55 by johnrk (Houston)        
re crap'

I don't share the pessimistic view that 'thomas' has stated. It has been a truism since the beginning of the last century for people to bemoan the shift of various industries with the demands of the times, and the advance of technology. There was a great movement, familiar to we who are car lovers, to try and bring back the Model T all the way up to WW II. It was simple, very sturdy, made of high-quality materials, and put the world on four wheels. However, it also was very inefficient with its use of gas and oil, required massive amounts of maintenance, was uncomfortable, and wasn't suited for the highways we were building.

I see this industry in the same position that our car industry was in the 70's. Few who know would dispute that that decade was awful for cars in this country, due to demands for greater safety and particularly greater economy. The cars of that decade were characterized by a certain level of unreliability, lack of durability, problems with running, etc. I see this industry in that time.

We may complain about our washers and dryers not matching the simple reliability of those of a half-century ago; having bought my first set 40 years ago, I sure wish I had it back, avocado color and all. However, realistically we also know that the world is growing not only more crowded but more prosperous--and more people can afford home laundry. The efficiency level of our old machines wasn't good enough for today's world, and we should all realize it. I truly believe that in a decade or less, machines like the TL Speed Queen that I just bought will be gone, consigned to collectors' basements and ersatz museums. We will see much improved front loading washers--and I'm confident that detergents will improve also.

In the meantime, those who build a quality product may not command the majority of the market, but they will have a place. I need a new dishwasher right now and I sure wish there was an equivalent to my old Hobart/KA Superba of 35 years ago. However, it used buckets of water and today's manufacturers are being challenged, as with laundry, to clean with next to no water. In the meantime, I keep washing my dishes by hand...

Post# 962075 , Reply# 81   10/12/2017 at 06:43 by Magic_Clean (Florida)        
U.S. made Washers with long warranties

Here are two:


Post# 962081 , Reply# 82   10/12/2017 at 07:15 by chetlaham (United States)        

Thanks :) IMO, that should be the starting point for warranties.

Post# 962105 , Reply# 83   10/12/2017 at 09:22 by johnrk (Houston)        

Opening up the warranties, it appears that there is a 10 year warranty on the drive motor and the wash basket. I'm no washer guy, but looking on this site it doesn't appear that either of these kills washers as a rule. It appears to be seals, brakes, clutches, transmissions, etc. Furthermore, the warranties for these machines states, in the small print, that the warranted items are only covered for defects present at the time at the machine was purchased. How does one prove that? It states, of course, that it is Maytag's discretion whether such a condition existed.

I applaud the fact that at least some of their washers' parts are covered for more than a year or so, but unless prospective buyers truly read the warranty (which few do) they may be bitterly disappointed further down the road.

Post# 962113 , Reply# 84   10/12/2017 at 09:47 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Wow ! Magic Clean are these the newest Maytags ? I will have to go to a Sears today to see these for myself if they have them.

I can't tell from the picture though, the agitator a true dual action ? or is it one piece ? 5 yr. parts and labor on the entire machine ?

Good for Whirlpool. I hope they get serious about building well built machines like they used to. I and i know most others don't want to see our last 2 american washer makers go under.

This post was last edited 10/12/2017 at 10:18
Post# 962130 , Reply# 85   10/12/2017 at 11:47 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
5 Years Parts and Labor

combo52's profile picture

Is a great warranty on a home washer, and I give MT credit for responding to the heavy challenge that SQ is causing MT.


WP-MT should offer a standard 5 Y P&L warranty on ALL W&Ds costing over $800 if they really want to respond to SQs challenge.


I feel that is time for a major manufacturer like WP to launch a campaign emphasizing quality home appliances like WP did in the early 70s, doing so is the only way WP can stand up to the on slot of foreign appliances, WP has the infrastructure to do this.


More than anything else consumers want their major appliances to work and not need expensive early repairs and replacement.


John L.

Post# 962131 , Reply# 86   10/12/2017 at 11:49 by Magic_Clean (Florida)        

it is a 2 piece agitator on the 3.5 cu. ft. basket model.

  View Full Size
Post# 962139 , Reply# 87   10/12/2017 at 12:26 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

John I couldn't agree more . Whirlpool was a juggernaut from the beginning of the automatic washer boom. They said as early as 1950- "The world's largest manufacturer of washers and dryers"- or very close to that.

They should position Maytag like they did with Kitchen aid washers and dryers. They certainly have the know how and experience to build the highest quality appliances. COME ON WHIRLPOOL! 😃

Magic Clean thanks for the info . One more question if I may. Will we be seeing more models from Maytag or Whirlpool with these kinds of warranties ? Because if so, I would love to come back to their top load laundry offerings.

Post# 962140 , Reply# 88   10/12/2017 at 12:30 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        

brucelucenta's profile picture
Actually back in the day, speed queen used to give you a lifetime warranty on the stainless steel tub on the washer. Wasn't much good, considering that wasn't what failed when problems arose. It also did not include the pot metal insert in the middle of the tub which housed the agitator tube and drive. All the old speed queen stainless steel tubs were perfect when the machines were junked in the first few years.

Post# 962141 , Reply# 89   10/12/2017 at 12:33 by Stricklybojack (San Diego, CA)        

stricklybojack's profile picture
I saw a new SQ commercial TL machine in a nice gray color...if I find the pic I'll post it.

Could it be, that depending on local conditions: water/user/settings/detergent/soil level omfg so many variables...that a person may prefer a spin drain to a neutral, or vice-versa?

Hard tellin' not knowin'...but I do believe SQ is the favorite brand to chat about 'round here regardless.

Craigslist ad copy:

(2) ONLY two months NEW Primus/ Speed Queen Top-Load washers.
3- year factory warranty.
New beautiful Gray color.
Simple user-friendly MDC board.
Large-capacity coin boxes included.
$800 each
(My cost was $965).
Installed July 2nd, 2017, removed August 25th.
(Decided to install larger washers instead)

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size

This post was last edited 10/12/2017 at 12:56
Post# 962143 , Reply# 90   10/12/2017 at 12:46 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

On first look at the Maytag dryer I got nervous. I thought it looked Frigidaire by the door.

Post# 962150 , Reply# 91   10/12/2017 at 13:46 by chetlaham (United States)        

@Combo: Could not agree more! Personally Whirlpool should offer the 5 year on all their none BOL models. Better yet do a 6 year to win one up. Speed Queen will only grow as people look for quality. Let the great awakening begin!

Post# 962158 , Reply# 92   10/12/2017 at 14:37 by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

lordkenmore's profile picture

 Personally Whirlpool should offer the 5 year on all their none BOL models. 


I'd rather see it on the whole line.


If they need to market something cheap with shorter warranty, it seems like they have brand names which they can use (e.g., Roper).

Post# 962189 , Reply# 93   10/12/2017 at 17:22 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Warranty tricks...

Probably the only company that doesn't use tricks in the USA is The Laundry Alternative.

3 year "hassle-free" warranty.

We will never, ever, try to fix a damaged unit.. if it fails, just let us know the original order number and the delivery address and a brand new unit will be shipped immediately at absolutely no cost for the customer.

This is what i call warranty, not spending 2 hours on the phone talking to an attendant in a call center in India and the company trying to find a minimal thing to void the warranty or postpone a solution as much as they can.

Or warranties that are not exactly clear.... 10 year warranty in huge capital letters then tiny on the bottom of the page "10 year warranty on the plug prongs, parts only, 90 day warranty on the rest of the washer."

Post# 962197 , Reply# 94   10/12/2017 at 19:42 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Choice Of A Spin Drain

combo52's profile picture

Hi Robert, for one thing no manufacturer would ever offer a choice on such a thing, for another explain how a SD works better under ANY laundry or water condition ?




John L

Post# 962212 , Reply# 95   10/12/2017 at 21:18 by Stricklybojack (San Diego, CA)        

stricklybojack's profile picture
Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Is it possible a person knows what they like, maybe because of their particular set of washing circumstances...or not?
Is a person ALOWED to pick the washer they prefer for good reason, bad reason no reason at all?
Is there a best shade of blue...or a best song?

I see one can argue about neutral vs spin....but also one can choose not to and not be wrong.

Post# 962215 , Reply# 96   10/12/2017 at 21:29 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        

brucelucenta's profile picture
As I said before, it truly makes a great deal of sense that neutral drain is preferable to spin drain machines. The only reason other washing machines did not have a neutral drain is because they were incapable of doing so with the pumps they used. It would have only been possible if someone else had designed a machine to neutral drain or add a separate pump, which is finally what many machines have now. The only other machine I know of that did a partial drain was Norge. The rest did a spin drain and stirred up all the lint.

This post was last edited 10/12/2017 at 21:50
Post# 962248 , Reply# 97   10/13/2017 at 04:07 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

Reply #89: Who---besides the military, possibly---would have the money to install a bunch of new SQ top-loaders, then remove them less than two months later over the issue of capacity? Is it possible there was something else either the users or owner did not like about the machines?

Post# 962250 , Reply# 98   10/13/2017 at 05:02 by chetlaham (United States)        

"The only reason other washing machines did not have a neutral drain is because they were incapable of doing so with the pumps they used"

I am not necessarily saying the neutral drain folks are wrong, but can someone elaborate more on this?


Like the above, I am not saying you are wrong, but I (in my mind) don't understand this. Machines continued to spin-drain even after going to a perforated tub.

Post# 962259 , Reply# 99   10/13/2017 at 07:52 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Just to stir the pot...

Carry on...

Post# 962267 , Reply# 100   10/13/2017 at 08:27 by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        
re: Post# 962259 , Reply# 99

daveamkrayoguy's profile picture
Now that is a neat machine!

What I hope to see public laundries around here (after all, the company IS "Midwest") evolve into...

-- Dave

Post# 962323 , Reply# 101   10/13/2017 at 16:55 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Reply 99: Well, well, Launderess. Our grey beauty is a water miser. I believe my Speed Queen uses around 24.6 gallons on the Normal Eco cycle at the Large load setting, which utilizes a spray rather than deep rinse. However, it also says the lid doesn't lock so fabric softener can be added. Maybe there is an optional fabric softener setting. Assuming that would trigger a deep rinse, I'd think the amount of water used would nearly double.

I certainly hope it doesn't fill to only a medium water level for both wash and rinse.

I'm even more convinced there was something either the users or owner hated about these machines in order to scrap them after less than two months.

Post# 962463 , Reply# 102   10/14/2017 at 10:24 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Looks like we are slowly but surely being forced off of top loaders. This is what happens with government interference micro managing our lives. They probably could be programmed to use more water but "big brother says" we must conserve. We didn't create the earth we live on, so how is it up to us to "save" it?

Unfortunately we will all be forced to go front load unless these new revised machines actually wash clothes without the headaches people have complained and experienced with these HE top loaders since Whirlpool launched the first cabrios and kenmore oasis back in 2005.

The problem isn't going with front load machines, the problem is being dictated to that that will be our only choice in the future apart from beating our clothes on a rock. Unfortunately there are no streams or rivers handy where I am.

Post# 962481 , Reply# 103   10/14/2017 at 13:08 by brucelucenta (tulsa, oklahoma)        

brucelucenta's profile picture
The makers of perforated tub top loaders all (for the most part) had reversing motors and pumps that would only pump water out in one direction. The reason they all mostly would spin drain is because it would have been very complicated to make a machine with a neutral drain that then kicked into spin, since it was already going in the direction it was supposed to for pumping out. It would have taken a 2 stage mechanism, like what Whirlpool had with the direct drive models. The spin drain had been working for all of them up until that time, so why invest in that much money to change it? All the old solid tub machines HAD to spin drain to remove the water which spun out at the top of the tub. This was just a carry over from what they already had been doing and most chose to just stay that way and not invest the extra $$$ for a neutral drain. The original Whirlpool machines were designed with a one direction motor and the "wigwag" is what energized the agitate and spin on those. So neutral drain was easy for them. With Norge, they had a reversing motor also, but they had a tub brake that would disengage with a solenoid. That was how they achieved a neutral drain. I'm sure excessive use would have probably worn down the clutch on Norge machines in time, since it ran before the brake disengaged. I know that on many of the old super capacity BD Whirlpool/Kenmore machines the clutch would wear down and need to be replaced since they had such a large load to spin.

Post# 962517 , Reply# 104   10/14/2017 at 15:25 by chetlaham (United States)        

Ok- I could understand it being an inadvertent hold over from the solid tub days (ie, GE went to a perforated tub without re-designing the suspension and outer tub) But there is still Maytag who endorsed spin-draining many times over.

Post# 962529 , Reply# 105   10/14/2017 at 15:55 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Marketing, it's all marketing.  Hundreds of millions of consumers lived with neutral-drain Kenmore and Whirlpool washers for many years and were satisfied enough to buy 2nd and 3rd replacement machines ... and likewise millions lived with spin-drain Maytags and bought replacements of those.

Post# 962668 , Reply# 106   10/15/2017 at 09:07 by chetlaham (United States)        

And how would we know that n-d isn't marketing either? Honestly, and based on marketing history, both make little difference if you ask me. Remember, it was Whirlpool who went from N-D to S-D on their first DDs. I don't think they would have done that if they knew S-D was that bad.

Post# 962672 , Reply# 107   10/15/2017 at 10:05 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Whirlpool Though they could pull a fast one

combo52's profile picture

And save some money, BUT they found out fast as customers returned the new machines and complained up a storm.


When you are the worlds largest washer builder with far more repeat customers than ANY other brand, they could not get away with selling an inferior poor performing product.


Interestingly Maytag had one of the lowest repeat sales rates of he big washer builders back in the 70s-80s. Of the hundreds of MT DC washers we hauled out of homes I have only ever had about 3 customers that wanted another MT washer, they were usually impressed with long they had lasted but they were always ready for something that was larger in capacity and performed better. [ And I never had a customer that wished they had kept the old MT after they got their new WP or SQ top load washer ]


We were taking back early DD washers and giving customers BD ND machines till WP came up with a very clever fix in 1985.


John L.

Post# 962674 , Reply# 108   10/15/2017 at 10:25 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Combo52, do you have any insight why WP even went to a SD to begin with ? I find it interesting that after 30+ years at that point of WP building ND machines why they just didn't stick with that. As much as like my current SQ TL washer I would give it up for the versatility of the KM DD 90 series i had. NEVER had my clothes torn or shredded in one of those and it puts the SQ to shame in the rinsing department.

Post# 962675 , Reply# 109   10/15/2017 at 10:26 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

I think WP went with an initial SD design on their early DD washers to save money.  I think John as eluded to that.

Post# 962684 , Reply# 110   10/15/2017 at 11:05 by chetlaham (United States)        

@Combo: How would a customer know though that the Whirlpool they were about to purchase linted less? I think rather what pushed people to Whirlpool was the larger capacity, and this I have witnessed first hand several times at a local dealer 10 years ago when the DC were still in the back storage room.

I can't speak to what you have seen first hand, but the explanation I have received from a Maytag dealer and a service tech is that the reason Whirlpool went to N-D was due to clutches wearing out faster. (and something about the original DDs being designed around a small capacity machine)

Second N-D for a DD is a misnomer. A large chunk of these machines spin drain as they age, and I have even used new machines were the first spin was S-D. The neutral drain mechanism was a joke to be honest.

Post# 962685 , Reply# 111   10/15/2017 at 11:09 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

The Kenmore I purchased in 2003 was one of the last with the side opening lids before they went to the flip up lids. I got rid of that machine all because the plug broke off of it too. I could kick myself for that stupid move. That was one of the most versatile washers I ever owned. The only thing I replaced on that washer were the agitator dogs.

I know people on this site are very divided over wp/km dd washers, but from my experience with 2 of those machines, I have never had an article of clothing that I had get ripped or worn out. WP was also much more successful with their changeover than either GE or MAYTAG.

When you think about how heavy and bulky the BD washers were and then to change over to a totally new design and have that design as the most reliable tl washer 2nd only to Maytag is quite an engineering feat.

Quite frankly, I think the steel used on the tops of the dd washers was of a better grade than my current SQ. They didn't buckle under a little weight, but the internals of the SQ appear to be very HEAVY DUTY where it counts. The dd wash basket seemed to be made of heavier gauge steel that the tub in the SQ.

Apologies for going off topic. Like I said earlier I like the SQ washer I have now but if I am truly being honest the dd washers were far better performance wise overall.

Post# 962689 , Reply# 112   10/15/2017 at 11:54 by chetlaham (United States)        
Whirlpool DDs

I think what made the DDs so famous was two things:

1. The bulk of Whirlpool machines were sold under the Kenmore name. Sears knew how to sell, and they turned everything into gold under their name. Kenmore gave low price, high end features on low end models (ie today you can get sani-rinse on a BOL Kenmore, but outside of that you must go to at upper MOL), large capacity, warranty, service contracts, ect ect. Bottom line their was all the incentive in the world for people to buy Kenmore, and Whirlpool had all the incentive to build a machine that gave the most bang for the buck.

2. The GE and Maytag change over was a disaster:

a. GE has always leaned toward builders and landlords, and in the 90s the Welch magic kicked in possessing everything with greed and an even bigger desire to appeal to the buider's grade market. A market GE won over in the 70s and 80s. As such the post FF washers were never really intended to be stellar or durable machines, rather appealing to a market that was never really intended for joe consumer.

b. Maytag always had joe consumer in mind, but made a lot of mistakes. In an effort to compete with Whirlpool they copy-pasted several designs without actually improving them or simply coming up with their own. The end result was horrible reliability that destroyed their reputation.

Personally DDs do shred, but only on the fast setting which is why Kenmore made sure low-fast was their "normal" cycle.

Post# 962693 , Reply# 113   10/15/2017 at 12:20 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Like I said I didn't have that experience with my machines. YMMV. The 90 series i had, had three speeds and i would use the middle speed on things like shirts or Kakis which were easier to turnover than say sturdy cottons like denim. Very versatile washer with I think it had 6 water temperature choices,...3 of which were thermostatically controlled and 5 speeds. If it had the suspension of the SQ it would have been the perfect washer.

Post# 962694 , Reply# 114   10/15/2017 at 12:23 by chetlaham (United States)        

You had a nice model, thats for sure :) One place where I think we can both agree that Kenmore winds over Speed Queen is capacity. The Queen I have does hold less over my Whirlpool built Maytag DD.

Post# 962709 , Reply# 115   10/15/2017 at 13:42 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

This might sound sacrilegious to some but the turnover on a dd reminds me a little of the GM Frigidaires in that there is a steady rollover with very little lateral movement. The dd washers have more "flow" I would say. More efficient definitely, but not nearly as fun and dramatic as a speed queen. :)

Post# 962710 , Reply# 116   10/15/2017 at 13:56 by chetlaham (United States)        

I could agree- however I still think the SQ cleans better. Maybe I'm just biased- but there is something very seductive about Speed Queen washers. Thats not to say that I do not miss the old Kenmore line. It certainly had much to offer in many regards.

Before I forget- what Dual action agitators are capable of fitting in a Speed Queen? Will the transmission be safe? I just might give it a try.

Post# 962718 , Reply# 117   10/15/2017 at 14:57 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

I don't get my clothes filthy so it is hard to compare which one cleans better.

Let's hope SQ gets this new design right from the get go. I'm all for HE TL ers if SQ can avoid the common problems WP had with their designs, and much of that came from folks not reading directions and not realizing what they actually bought, judging by the hundreds of on line complaints. I quickly learned how to use the Maytag Bravos ( belt drive version) after I got it in 2011.

After only 2 years it bit the dust as the control board failed. On top of that I never saw a washer so lightly built. It would shake in spin with no clothes in it. Maybe the combination of the plastic base and SS tub made it somewhat out of round. For all its faults I liked that washer because it was different to all the conventional washers I was used to up to that point.

That Bravos washer actually cleaned very well. I had tissues that got washed in that machine by accident and not a one tore or shredded up. Once you get the learning curve they clean very well.

I'm not one of those who will curse WP up and down for their past mistakes. I look at it like some have said here. When automatics first hit the scene they were largely unreliable in the first decade or so. Only in this club with people who have vast knowledge know how to keep these old classics up and running. As time went on they were more reliable overall.

So the same goes for the HE TLers, least we hope so. It has only been 12 years since the first cabrio and oasis washers. Hopefully the manufacturers will succeed

This post was last edited 10/15/2017 at 16:07
Post# 962743 , Reply# 118   10/15/2017 at 19:18 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
SQ also has the right speed and stroke to make ramped agitators effective as well....

our Dan is such a little scamp....but he is brilliant!

Post# 962753 , Reply# 119   10/15/2017 at 20:40 by chetlaham (United States)        

Neat and thank you Dan! :)

Speed Queen certainly does bring out the best in every agitator.

Post# 962786 , Reply# 120   10/15/2017 at 23:31 by peteski50 (New York)        

peteski50's profile picture
Martin - that is really a great video and great wash action with the spiral adj!

Post# 963030 , Reply# 121   10/17/2017 at 16:43 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        

Would a suds saver work with today's non phosphate detergent?

I understand people's desire for top loaders,but I just cannot justify the amount of water being used and the impact to my water and sewer bill.

Post# 963082 , Reply# 122   10/17/2017 at 21:46 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Suds Savers and Non-Phosphate Detergents

combo52's profile picture

I have no idea what one has to do with the other, Reusing wash water was done long before Phosphate detergents were ever invented and have also been used long since phosphates were gone from laundry detergents, phosphates have been gone from detergents for more than 30 years.


John L.

Post# 963111 , Reply# 123   10/18/2017 at 05:13 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

Patrick, I agree with you about how DD WP made washers are reminiscent of Frigidaires.  When I went to buy my Lady Shredmore October 1986, Sears had the TOL ebony electronic control panel pair connected.  Salesman turned it on so I could see how it washed.  The rollover and how it sucked clothes down to the base immediately had me thinking, that looks just like a Unimatic washing. 

Post# 963115 , Reply# 124   10/18/2017 at 06:45 by Gyrafoam (Roanoke, VA)        

Interesting to see the same old arguments are still going around. Neutral-Drain vs Spin-Drain.
Used wash water vs fresh.

Well, I never had a "grease-ring" around a GE FF, SQ or Maytag agitator. And I've never seen a neutral-drain without them.
I never had a lint issue with any of them either and even if I did the dryer would catch it, anyway.

As for water conservation-----the whole idea rings hollow when it is discussed amongst people who make a hobby of collecting and using old "water-hogs".
If water conservation were that big an issue we would be discussing how to turn our toilet water into bath water and reuse it 30 times.

No thanks. water is still pretty cheap and plentiful here in Virginia and I have a basement full of toys I like to use---- not look at.

As for the new SQ's. They will continue to cheapen the product as the Government (who has no idea whatsoever how to design and manufacture a good washer----or anything else for that matter) continues to interfere with private enterprise. Also, once enough of the "sheeple" have been "conditioned" to pay more and expect less the management will really put the squeeze on every dollar they make. Reputation doesnt mean a thing in today's market.

Thank the Heavens I have enough good machines to last the rest of my natural lifetime.

Post# 963123 , Reply# 125   10/18/2017 at 07:54 by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)        

mayken4now's profile picture
Well said Stevie

Post# 963125 , Reply# 126   10/18/2017 at 08:22 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
these energy saving conversationalist worry so much of how little water they can squeeze out, like water is not renewable.....yes, FLer conserve better for a lot of reasons compared to a TLer, but washing in drops of water is crazy....

now if they wanted to impress the world......put your brains together, and produce extreme fuel efficient gas engine that gets a true 50+ MPG.....and powerful to boot....and I don't mean one of these hybrids or little lunch box cars, full size vehicles, SUV's, and Truck's....

cars today are not getting any better mileage than cars of the 70's.....oh sure, 6, 8 maybe 12 MPG more than their predecessors, Puh-Leeze.....50 years later, and this is the best they can do?

I just think the price of water is not as much a concern as the price for gas per gallon....YMMV

Post# 963141 , Reply# 127   10/18/2017 at 10:26 by chetlaham (United States)        
Advantage of ND

In so far I am surprised no one has used the argument that during spin drain a small load of clothes can gather up on one side and throw the machine into imbalance. Not that that has happened to me as of late.

I agree with everything you said Gyrafoam :)

Post# 963180 , Reply# 128   10/18/2017 at 15:29 by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        

And a load that small shouldn't cause any trouble for any machine with a reasonable suspension. Haven't had that trouble with either my SQ or MT. WP had another reason to go with neutral drain and that was their lesser suspension.

I'll admit that I don't own a belt drive whirlpool but you can see a lot of tub movement in them. Please, WP experts correct me if I'm wrong regarding their suspension. I do want to eventually ad one to my small collection, though.

Post# 963182 , Reply# 129   10/18/2017 at 15:47 by agiflow2 (iselin, nj)        

Its like full circle. WP went back to having the inner workings hanging off of the cabinet again on their current platform.

Post# 963184 , Reply# 130   10/18/2017 at 15:49 by norgeway (mocksville n c )        

I STILL don't want anything newer than the early 80s, I don't want and will never have another Maytag on my property, I am using a rimflow Hotpoint and matching dryer and could not be more pleased.When someone makes a real frontloader that uses enough water and does not reverse I will get one...Unless Bendix or Westinghouse are revived, I don't see it happening!

Post# 963206 , Reply# 131   10/18/2017 at 17:48 by johnrk (Houston)        
industrial/commercial use

Seeing the above posting by 'norgeway' reminded me that I was always fascinated by the setups in hospitals for handling laundry. I have real admiration for the people who do that for a living as it's quite different from someone's hotel. That was the first time I ever heard of the Milnor brand, decades ago.

I went visiting through a dozen or so videos on YouTube demonstrating industrial laundry, in hotels, hospitals and elsewhere. I saw no reluctance on the part of those big horizontal-axis machines to reverse agitate. There's a really cool Milnor on there showing that it uses 5 belts to drive the drum!

I'm curious: is there any sort of standard calculation that is used to demonstrate, for example, the number of pounds of laundry per number of gallons of water? I see that 'norgeway' states that he'd like "enough water". Is there any industry standard on horizontal axis machines indicating what is "enough water"?

Post# 963223 , Reply# 132   10/18/2017 at 19:45 by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Watch a old Bendix

Or Westinghouse FL, the water comes up about 1/4 of the way up the window, on the slant fronts the clothes are nearly submerged also.

Post# 963225 , Reply# 133   10/18/2017 at 19:48 by henene4 (Germany)        
Depends on what machine we are talking about

Enough water us when the washer can move water through the laundry sufficently enough.

When the washer has no aid in water movement besides the drum, you need enough for all the laundry being pulled through it.
Without scooping vanes, a recirc or slanted drum vanes which move laundry ccloser to the drum more towards either the front or the back and thus allow laundry from the core to move to the outside, water levels need to be high.

If there are scooping vanes, more water is "filtered" through the entire load thus reducing the needed waterlevel.

With a recirc, water levels drop again.

With lower water levels, detergent concentration rises thus reducing cycle time and necesarry mechanical action.

TLDR there is no one needed water level. Move water through laundry as much as possible.
How dosen't matter.

Who ever used a high capacity HE machine and filled it to the brim can testiment that: A (well designed and programmed) recirculation spray allows for faster, better cleaning and far far supirior rinsinging.

For hospitals there are sanatisation requirements. They aren't even concerned of cleanlines in terms of stain remival, but pure bacteria reduction.
The manufacturer tjen designs specific requirements and cycles for its machines to match needed standards, depending on how the machine is designed.

In hotels actually its the other way around, kind of. There is not set standard, thus, machine manufacturer and hotel usually play together to reach the desired level of results while minimizing usage.
For example, the manufacturer knows that its machine only needs 1.5gal per pound of flat bedding of a certain kind for the mainwash (numbers being just random). Thus, they programn to run a Hot Normal cycle with a certain load detection and reaction pattern.
If the hotel however knows for example its bedding needs a certain amount more water, but as they do not use starch, they need less water in the final rinse, the service tech who installs the new machine can tweak the cycles to correspond with that need.
If it turns out the new machine still needs different parameters (for example one rinse less entirely), the owner/supervisor is usually tought by a service tech how to change such parameters in case of linen or detergent change ir simmilar.

For householduse, you have to estimate an everage customer and its usage pattern and the design one or a few cycle that match those use cases plus as many more ascpossible. That design then is fixed, for at least one, but often even more itterations of the same machine.
You can't teach a costumer to reprogramn their machine due to liabiloty issues, and people don't have the will to pay for a service tech to come and reprogramn their cycles (if that even is posdible) and pay 159 bucks or such for that.
Thus often, washer controls are designed as read only due to cost reasons.
Itterations only happen with new machines.

However, hers in Germany at least, its common to find reprogrammable PCBs. Should there be major issues or minor fixes, the manufacturer pushes a new software for an appliance every few months or years.
If there is a service call then, while the technician writes his bill, his PC is just hooked up to the machine and installs the reworked software.
But even then, most customers don't even kniw that is possible or don't pay extra just for that service and thus it often only happens as a side-service during major other works.

Post# 963231 , Reply# 134   10/18/2017 at 20:29 by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

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Well, I never had a "grease-ring" around a GE FF, SQ or Maytag agitator. And I've never seen a neutral-drain without them. I never had a lint issue with any of them either and even if I did the dryer would catch it, anyway.

I agree with Steve 100%. I have these machines lined up in the basement as well, including the first generation of perforated tub GE Filter-Flo and never once do I remember seeing any kind of lint deposited at the end of the cycle. Same goes for the Maytag 806 I had for several years. The only advantage to a neutral drain that I have found over the last 20 years has been better balancing with very small loads. The solid tubs however more than make up for that by the simple fact that the outer tub is completely segregated from the wash tub (with the exception of the overflow/recirculation machines) and it keeps any build-up of grime in the outer tub away from the clothes being washed. Twenty years of having these machines and I have not experienced most of the claimed issues stated in this thread.

As for water conservation, I won't play golf in the desert or go skiing on man-made snow, problem solved :-).

Post# 963238 , Reply# 135   10/18/2017 at 20:56 by henene4 (Germany)        
Water convservation

Don't think that on TL vs another TL a different tub setup will make more the 25% difference in usage.
Given a somewhat sensible designs, the gap between out tub and drum shouldn't matter much anyways.

Given the main idea in terms of cleaning performance (which I didn't comment on yet):

I kind of see both sides as having a certain logic to them.

A neutral drain should just drain the water away with much interference with laundry.
The water would filter through the laundry while washing anyway, so filtering through while drainig stationary wouldn't change that much in my eyes.
Especially given that with a thourough wash and a lot of soil suspended in the water without a way of redeposit (most soil onces caught by tensides will never resettle without chemical interference), there is verry little soil percentage wise that would even be abled to resettle.
However, there are certain parts of laundry that tend to float to the top and, given that a neutral drain from end of agitation to empty tub is usually done in 3 minutes or less, the whole setteling/floating argument only plays a little role.

With a spin drain, I certanly see a powerfull kind of wash movement. Even though the water will move with the drum, the water will be going through the laundry with far greater force for far longer, giving kind of a pressure-wash effect that should disloge some soil or residue.
Further, most of the movement induced should be along the horizontal axis. Thus, floating or setlled dirt should be forced straight to the outside of the tub.
However, during the later stages, I see the potential of the holes in the basket to creat swirls which intermix non-suspended soil and dirt.
And, with a solid tub, I see the issue of extraction. Even with maximum extraction speed, some water will alway remain as a film on the tub that can not escape. This will be reabsorbed, increasing carry over from wash to rinse and final residual moisture. Not by much, but by a real amount I'd suppose.
Now, if we add and overflow rinse to a spindrain machine and a way for heavy sediments to escape quickly, these issue would be gone.
Then however, the water usage would be higher, and you'd need more wash time and thus more wear on the laundry as during the overflow portion, the concentration of detergent woukd steadily drop and thus reduce effective cleaning power of that period of agitation.

It quite honestly it is a draw for me from a purely logical standpoint.
A neutral drain with a seperate pump would allow me to do stuff like partial refills for cooldowns, possibly faster draining, and easier to construct drive train.
A spindrain would reduce the things to worry about while programming, while reducing needed electric parts/wiring and less risk of tub crud due to high-ish speed tub cleaning during each darin portion.

Post# 963239 , Reply# 136   10/18/2017 at 21:01 by henene4 (Germany)        

Ever thought of a hybrid system?

Neutral drain as long as load is suspended in water. The level to which neutral drain is executed is determined by main fill level (for example you know that normal medium load would still be under the water line even with 25% of the water drained, thus, drain 25% neutral).
That gets rid of all the heavier-then-water soils, especiall if you give the load a minut or 2 to settle after agitation.

Then shift to spin drain. Still floats away lighter-then-water soils as they didn't touch laundry yet, and the tub as well as the laundry get their forcefull flow-through cleaning.

Just a weired thought...

Post# 963244 , Reply# 137   10/18/2017 at 21:27 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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of the machines I have, spin drain, neutral drain, FL, TL......the lint filter is just there for looks, removed while machine is in use, even most of the self-clean filters have been yanked out....

between sorting, cycle, water temp/level, detergent.....and proper washing techniques......dirt and lint will be held in suspension until the drain sequence of any type is done...

but all in all, you can take the same machine, same load, same washing techniques...and each person will get different results...

Post# 963254 , Reply# 138   10/18/2017 at 21:57 by johnrk (Houston)        
Question for 'norgeway'

I've purchased all the Westinghouse brochures for sale at this site. Going back through them, it's advertised that the water level is always below the opening for the door.

The last one, the "New Generation Washer", states, "All White-Westinghouse washers are so designed so that the water level is always below the door opening. This allows the door to be opened to add or remove articles at any time during the wash, except during spin, of course".

Several of the others state the same thing. Were there some other front loaders that didn't do this? I know those old Westinghouse machines appear to use more water than today's, but I thought that part of that was because of the sudsing showing up in the glass window on the front.

It's interesting that in the 8/58 CR test that I just posted as jpeg's on here, the Laundromat showed it used 28 gallons of water, which is basically what the top loaders used (though some got up to 37). The top-rated Frigidaires used 28 1/2. Obviously, back the the water savings wasn't emphasize. In my 10/62 CR test, the Westinghouse LLC-305W used a total of 32.2 gallons; the whole range of top loaders was from 28.8 (Kelvinator) to 48.1 (Hamilton). Frigidaire took 33.3, GE 40.0, Maytag 32.2, for example. So again, no real water-saving advantage.

Do you think that the washing ability on these current front loaders has been compromised too much for the sake of saving water? Boy, I'd sure say so for those silly top loaders with the plate in the bottom, but the two FL's I've owned were superb cleaners. Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

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Post# 963262 , Reply# 139   10/18/2017 at 22:47 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Early US Front Load Washers

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The only ones that ever had water fill levels up on the glass were the early bolt down Bendix washers and the 55-63 WH compact 25" wide models. All the others including all combos the WL was always low enough to open the the door at any time during the cycle without spliage.


While total water use on early FL models was not much less than early TL automatics you have to keep in mind that they still saved a lot of hot water, detergent and other laundry additives because the wash fill was only 1/3 to 1/2 of what the wash fill was in a TL machine.


You could also wash more clothing in a 1959 and later full sized WH FL washer than about any other machine especially the solid tub and MT washers in these tests, so the total water usage figures don't tell the whole story.


John L.

Post# 963271 , Reply# 140   10/18/2017 at 23:14 by johnrk (Houston)        
FL washers

Thanks for your reply! Certainly looking on YouTube those vintage FL's look like they're giving a better water bath than today's.

I'm sure you'd know: on those combo machines, after the final rinse, did it take a while before the dryer part started working? Or was it pretty much instantaneous? Was there a lot of clicking, etc.? From what I remember some of them had separate timers for the two parts and some had one master timer.

Post# 963323 , Reply# 141   10/19/2017 at 07:57 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Vintage Combos, Switching From Wash To Dry

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They all changed into full dry mode within one minute, several also started heating up the load in the final spin cycles to speed things up, some also gave a final hot rinse if the wash temperature had had been set to hot.


The new SQ FL washers are not only the best built automatic washers ever sold for home use in the US [ IMEO ] And you can now adjust the water level with a simple switch setting on the main control board, you can turn up the WL about 2" in 1/2" increments.


John L.

Post# 963325 , Reply# 142   10/19/2017 at 08:12 by johnrk (Houston)        
Combo drying

Thanks again! I've never actually been around one, unless it was as a kid in the 50's and 60's and I didn't know it. So much of my family lived out in the country and used line drying until the 70's or so.

My mother came from a family of 13 kids and they lived out in the country. They didn't get electricity out there until after WW II. Her mother had a Maytag wringer washer with a gasoline motor.

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