Thread Number: 72782  /  Tag: Detergents and Additives
Tide vs. Persil & and the rest
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Post# 961652   10/10/2017 at 05:13 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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What is in which and how it all goes together.

cen.acs.org/articles/95/i4/PG-He...





Post# 961654 , Reply# 1   10/10/2017 at 05:33 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

Interesting! Now I had something fun to read with my morning coffee :)

Post# 961665 , Reply# 2   10/10/2017 at 07:12 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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My two favorite detergents. Thanks for the link, Launderess; will read it when I get home tonight.

Post# 961673 , Reply# 3   10/10/2017 at 07:40 by dermacie (my forever home (Glenshaw, PA))        

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As much as it pains me to say since I am and still am a Tide fan, I feel that Persil does a better job than Tide. They are close in their abilities but Persil is slightly better IMHO.

Post# 961687 , Reply# 4   10/10/2017 at 09:13 by iej (Ireland)        

Interesting that they seem to use fewer enzymes than European versions at that tier.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO iej's LINK


Post# 961692 , Reply# 5   10/10/2017 at 09:36 by verizonbear (Glen Burnie )        

verizonbear's profile picture
Very Interesting Read !!! I wish Persil would change the 2 in 1 fragrance, it's way too strong , I use Tide because of that

Post# 961704 , Reply# 6   10/10/2017 at 10:15 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

iej - The link isn't working :(

Post# 961720 , Reply# 7   10/10/2017 at 11:36 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Thank you, Launderess!

What is the foaming like for these two liquid products in warm and hot water, please, if anyone knows and how much do they foam during the last rinse? RiteAid  Drug Stores sell Persil. I can watch the sale ads and use my Wellness discount card to try some Persil if it is worth it. The fragrances in most washing products don't seem to last through the rinsing and fast spins so the fragrance in Persil might not remain. Also, is there a great difference between the liquid and powder formulations with this new generation like there is with Tide? I have seen Persil powder in bottles and wondered. The Tide liquids that I have tried foam greatly above 140F so I was wondering if the Persil liquids do also. Likewise the Tide powder is better behaved at higher temps so I wonder if the Persil is also.  The old Persil Universal powder is very well behaved at high temps so would hope the new product is also. The powders don't seen to foam as much in the rinse as liquids and I like that.  


Post# 961722 , Reply# 8   10/10/2017 at 11:56 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

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Persil ProClean 2-in-1 Ten Dimensions Of Clean: Someone posted the newest version of Persil (with the '10 Dimensions of Clean' logo) rinses out better than the older formula. I bought a jug of the new stuff, but want to finish the original formula before I crack it open.

Kind of like Tide's 'Turbo HE' formula, with its 'quickly collapsing suds, I suppose.


Post# 961733 , Reply# 9   10/10/2017 at 12:32 by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture

I liked the Persil 2 in 1 but geeze trying to find it on a store shelf anywhere here, not happening lately.  Persil barely gets any shelf space in any grocery store here in town.. it's nearly all Tide products everywhere.  


Post# 961771 , Reply# 10   10/10/2017 at 15:09 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Liquid detergents

launderess's profile picture
IIRC in general tend to cause greater foaming at high to very high wash temperatures. Owner's manuals for older European washing machines (Asko, Miele, etc...) recommended using powders when doing boil/high temperature washes for this reason.

My bottle of Persil color gel (from Germany) has temps listed of 20c, 40c and 60c. Meanwhile the boxes of Persil powder or megaperls are good for and up to boil wash temperatures.

To be fair the main reason for using wash temps >140F in past was to activate and or give better action from the oxygen bleaches nearly all European powders contained (except those for colors obviously). Liquid detergents do not contain oxygen bleach so the higher temps may be a moot issue.

Have used Persil "2 in 1" Pro-Clean at temps of 120F and while it made suds it was nothing too serious. Never tried so far at hot to boiling wash temperatures. Thing is the stuff creates already lots of suds (very careful dosing is required), so am not tempted to test limits.





This post was last edited 10/10/2017 at 14:57
Post# 961773 , Reply# 11   10/10/2017 at 15:23 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Very interesting read for the detergent enthusiats among us.

One thing I`d like to object is the claim that enzymes were first added to detergents in the late 60`s. This claim is accurate considering modern detergents as we know them today but not for laundry products in general.
An enzyme containing product for pre soaking laundry called "Burnus" was patented as early as 1914. Back then the enzymes were derived from bovine pancreas.
Burnus wasn`t a huge success in Germany like biological Ariel in the 60`s, but I thought it might be worth to mention that P&G and Henkel were pretty late to the party when it comes to the merits of enzymes on washday.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK


Post# 961776 , Reply# 12   10/10/2017 at 15:28 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Interesting read!

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Thanks for that!

I'm quite intrigued by P&G's glucanase enzyme. Is it related to the glycosidases which were previously in P&G detergents?

iej - the link doesn't work for me either...


Post# 961781 , Reply# 13   10/10/2017 at 15:55 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Linked article was somewhat misleading

launderess's profile picture
In that many versions of Tide do contain cellulase.

In fact so do quite few other detergents and other laundry products including offerings from Seventh Generation

www.ewg.org/guides/substances/193...

IIRC all P&G detergents (Tide, Cheer, etc...) are made from one master base formula; then things are either added or subtracted based upon which of the score or whatever different products is being made. Thus it would stand to reason more than one variation of Tide, Method, Seventh Generation and so forth would have cellulase.


If you look at the MSDS for Tide detergents you'll see several are listed under one master for powder or liquid.


Post# 961783 , Reply# 14   10/10/2017 at 16:22 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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All German liquid detergents intended for colors have temperatures listed only up to 60°. This is because repeated washings above 60° may be hard on colors even on boil-proof Indranthen colors that don`t bleed at higher temperatures.

More or less all "Universal" liquids sold here including Persil have temperatures listed up to 95°.
It`s not about bleaching but some people in this particular market still have the desire to sanitize laundry without the use of additional chemicals.
Very high temperatures are also a godsent when dealing with greasy stains. Again no need for bleaching agents in this case.
Some liquid detergents do indeed foam like crazy when reaching the max temperature, but the suds usually collapse as soon as the cool down begins.


Post# 961785 , Reply# 15   10/10/2017 at 16:30 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
It never dawned upon me difference between "Universal

launderess's profile picture
And color Persil detergent.

Never bothered with universal Persil liquid as have tons of the powder or mega-perls. Am tempted to try but since the Persil (2 in 1) does a decent enough job and got it for much less than German Persil gel, cannot see spending more at this time.


Post# 961803 , Reply# 16   10/10/2017 at 18:10 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Thank you, Launderess and all. I went to the RiteAid and bought the 40 oz. Persil 2 in 1 on sale for 4.94 reduced from its regular price of 8.49. I removed caps from all flavors for a sniff test and this one had the best odor. I sort of plan to use it in the SQ for bed linens. The machine could not heat if you put a gun to it so the sudsing will probably be at safe levels. Does Persil tell you to use too much like Tide does?

Another thing that was on sale was Gain scent boost crystals. I don't know what Gain is supposed to smell like, but these smelled awful; in fact none of the scent booster things smelled very good. Do people buy Gain for the scent?


Post# 961805 , Reply# 17   10/10/2017 at 18:37 by Dustin92 (Jackson, MI)        

I much prefer Tide, generally either Clean Breeze or Ultra Stain release, occasionally original scent Pods, It seems to work as well or nearly as well as Persil, but doesn't have the horrible strong scent. I have tried a couple different versions of Persil, and while it's good detergent, I haven't liked the scent of any, and it was extremely harsh on clothes, they looked faded and worn in record time. My mom loved Persil, but also noticed the colors fading, so we have an unopened bottle buried in the laundry room cupboard, which will probably eventually get used on rags and such.

Post# 961825 , Reply# 18   10/10/2017 at 20:14 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
One good thing about linked article in OP

launderess's profile picture
Is it pointed out how nearly useless or at least low value of bottom shelf liquid detergents.

Mostly water with a bit of cheap surfactant and scent it pretty much seems to Moi.


Post# 961851 , Reply# 19   10/10/2017 at 21:59 by iej (Ireland)        

Persil Unilever (Universal Bio) powder:
Subtilisin, Mannanase, Lipase Amylase

Persil S&M Liquid
Subtilisin,Pectate Lyase, Amylase & Mannanase

Ariel Powder Mannanase, Lipase, Protease, Amylase

Liquid : Lyase, Amylase, Protease, Mannanase

Miele Ultra Phase 1 (2 component Cartridge Detergent) : Protease, Amylase, Lipase, Cellulase, Mannanase and Pectinase ! They REALLY Didn't skimp.


Post# 961857 , Reply# 20   10/10/2017 at 22:51 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

Miele’s detergents all contain six enzyme formulations. The ultra white powder, the liquid for colours and the phase 1 which is the same as the colour liquid. They’re made by Dali Werke

Phase 2 is a hydrogen peroxide


Post# 961859 , Reply# 21   10/10/2017 at 22:56 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Wonder if the Miele liquid detergents

launderess's profile picture
Sold here are same as the "ultra phase" cartridges.

We only have the large bottles of color care liquid. No cartridges and the liquid oxygen bleach.


Post# 961863 , Reply# 22   10/10/2017 at 23:49 by johnrk (Houston)        
Hyacinth

I've had the boxed set of 'Keeping Up Appearances' for umpteen years, still enjoy it on occasion.

I was always amazed at how clean the Bucket house was, but Hyacinth never seemed to actually clean. Always wished I knew her trick!


Post# 961892 , Reply# 23   10/11/2017 at 05:47 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Her trick was probably the same as Emily Gilmore's; drive your staff until they dropped or quit or both. Emily had a new maid every week. What a miserable, lonely bitch that character was and nobody liked Hyacinth either. Whoever wrote the Gilmore Girls show must have really had maternal issues. Most of the series is too over the top with drama. With Hyacinth it is just bothersome pretension.




This post was last edited 10/11/2017 at 05:10
Post# 961944 , Reply# 24   10/11/2017 at 12:16 by iej (Ireland)        

I have to say I find the Miele cartridge system works very well, but it’s just too expensive to justify buying more after the freebies run out (you get a “years’” supply as a promo)

The accurate dosing has cut down my detergent use enormously though. I obviously had a very heavy hand!


Post# 961983 , Reply# 25   10/11/2017 at 14:59 by logixx (Germany)        

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Ariel's German "Compact" powders have the same enzymes as the Miele stuff, except that there's no Pectinase but Lyase. Lidl's very affordable Superconcentrate Liquid also had six enzymes - but it's been suddenly pulled off the shelves.

Post# 962008 , Reply# 26   10/11/2017 at 17:45 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

Logixx - my local Lidl still has it, might try it. How about the standard liquid from Lidl?

Post# 962061 , Reply# 27   10/12/2017 at 02:55 by dixan (Europe)        

Unfortunately Formil superconcentrated liquid from Lidl does not contain 6 enzymes anymore. It contains now protease, lipase and three glycosidases. Some time ago it contained protease, amylase, lipase, mannanase, cellulase and colour version additionally pectate lyase. This doesn't make it bad, but now there is no cellulase, typically for Dalli Werke (they don't usually use cellulase in their detergents).

Post# 962065 , Reply# 28   10/12/2017 at 04:01 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Glycosidase is a generic term for amylase, cellulase, pectinase and mannanase.
In other words if you read "glycosidase" you can never tell exactly which one of these is actually meant.


Post# 962071 , Reply# 29   10/12/2017 at 06:20 by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Alex - I've never tried the standard liquid. The Superconcentrate was ranked the "best liquid detergent ever tested" by a Swedish consumer magazine. Don't know if they were referring to the Color or Universal version, though. I only ever used the Color formula.

Alex


Post# 962072 , Reply# 30   10/12/2017 at 06:21 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

I wish we had a list of detergents with the most enzymes, I’m a bit obsessed with finding detergents with six enzyme formulations lol

Post# 962085 , Reply# 31   10/12/2017 at 08:05 by GRWasher_expert (Athens)        

What does exactly "lyase" do?What kind of stains does it break down?

Post# 962091 , Reply# 32   10/12/2017 at 08:28 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

If I'm not mistaken, it removes fruit stains

Post# 962092 , Reply# 33   10/12/2017 at 08:30 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

Here's a list I have for referencing when I look at detergents lol

Proteases (Subtilisin)
Acts on stains containing proteins by degrading the proteins to peptides. Typical stains are blood, grass and soil at collars and cuffs.

Amylases
Acts on stains containing starch by degrading starch to short-chain sugars. Typical stains are sauces, gravy and ice-creams.

Lipases
Acts on soil containing oil and grease from food and body.

Cellulases
Acts on stains from dust and mud. They are especially good for cleaning clothes made from cellulosic fibers.

Mannanase
Breaks down starches and other carbohydrate based stains (amyl comes from the Greek for starch)

Pectinase (Lyase)
Removes fruit and pectin-based stains that traditional detergent ingredients have trouble removing, doing it efficiently at low wash temperatures.


Post# 962094 , Reply# 34   10/12/2017 at 08:36 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Lyase simply means it is an enzyme

launderess's profile picture
Amylase is simply an enzyme that breaks down starch into sugar.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyase...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase...

There are many lyase enzymes that work upon a bewildering and vast array of substances.

*Yes*, that nursing education again.....

Sit through enough chemistry, microbiology along with anatomy and physiology classes, and you learn a few things. *LOL*


Post# 962095 , Reply# 35   10/12/2017 at 08:47 by MrAlex (London, UK)        

Opsie! Please ignore the "(Lyase)" :) I hope the rest was somewhat correct lol

Post# 962101 , Reply# 36   10/12/2017 at 09:10 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

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Some detergents refer to 'Pectinase', others refer to 'Pectate Lyase'. Both do the same job - break down stick fruit juice stains (apple juice, grapefruit juice).

I had wondered about the Glycosidases, as some detergents listed it two or three times. I presumed they were modified to perform differently.

I remember P&G's 'What's in the box' ingredients list, suggested that one version of the glycosidase enzyme would work on starch stains, and the other would attack pectin stains.






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