Thread Number: 73118
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Now This Is A Miele Laundry Set-up
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|Post# 965861   11/3/2017 at 20:24 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Not one but *two* stacked sets of uber sized Miele washer and dryer.
|Post# 965865 , Reply# 1   11/3/2017 at 20:30 by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)  || |
Though one does wonder if the current owners are very tall or if they have to use a ladder to be able to see and set the dryer controls. LOL
|Post# 965867 , Reply# 2   11/3/2017 at 20:35 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 965868 , Reply# 3   11/3/2017 at 20:37 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
One does see many of these uber Miele washers and dryers going for very little money on CL and elsewhere. You can often pick up a barely five or so years old unit for $500 or less each. Not all cases are due to persons moving house and need to sell, or reverse; those moving into a new home and don't want.
Miele says they discontinued these units due to low sales/losing money, but I've never been sure. All that R&D, fanfare and so forth to pull washers and dryers barely a few years after they launched? There is story there I shouldn't wonder.
|Post# 965871 , Reply# 4   11/3/2017 at 20:46 by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)  || |
A quite a story there indeed! Manufacturer's don't abandon a platform so soon after launch. Either they were costing Miele more money to manufacture and transport to these shores than they were recouping or there was some inherent design flaw which caused them to pull the plug. Though didn't they move these over to the Professional side?
I was eyeing these machines but honestly after the horrendous experience I had with my Miele dishwasher I am glad I never purchased the laundry units. In fact, I've gone off Miele altogether. I have a Miele Rotary Iron and vacuum cleaner and that's all I ever have.
|Post# 965875 , Reply# 5   11/3/2017 at 21:28 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 965879 , Reply# 6   11/3/2017 at 22:34 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
There were some verry potent issues that plagued these. I suppose though these were a precursor to the OctoPlus professional lineup.
With the washers:
- They could only be filled about 3/4ths makeing them barely bigger in terms of real capacity compared to the compact models whic you can stuff to the brim.
- Sudslocking was a huge issue. The EU machines of the same genertion had a simmilar problem: A to steep rpm ramp during the first and all subsequent interim spins caused sudslocking with most somewhat absorbent loads. That sudslocking caused error messages, long cycles and poor rinsing. On the US machines there was the aditional issue of a direct tub vent to the outside back of the machine which caused foam to get expelled out of there during verry sudsy spins. Only a year or two later techncians finally got a software update which added a suds reduction tumble at the end of a wash if suds were sensed, as well as far more delicate interim spin ramp and a less sensitive suds control which did more retrys for the spins.
- Vibrations and related issues. These machine could vibrate a lot, especially when loaded more. That actually wasn't a desing error per se, Mieles are known for their ability to spin basicly anything at full speed. While the machines are alwys stable (no swaying or such) they can vibrate quite a lot. The bigger drum, bigger loads and for Miele comparativley small suspension made that even more prominent. Often that just caused noise (hoses banging on the backsite, the transport rods stored at the back of the machine being loose or the soap drawer wiggeling), sometimes that would cause dispenser drawers to pop open, allowing for leaks and resulting damage.
- The early versions of the electronics were not verry reliable and verry senitive to power surges and spills.
- The gas dryers had an urgent recall due to possible carbon monoxide release into the room.
- The dryers were verry mediocre for their price. Their system wasn't verry optimised which often led to long cycle times. Reversing caused actually longer drying times as the already low drying power in main direction was further dropped with the fan running in reverse and either verry little heat on the electrics or none at all on the gas models.
- They were a huge investment for Miele. They could use basicly none of their current technology. They had to design, set up and run an entire new process to form the plastic outer tubs. The US was the only target market for them; South America has a different pricepoint for major appliances, and the EU has seen several attemps of placing 27" laundry options in the market landscape with the BSH Logixx 9/10, the Bauknecht Big and the LG 15kg US clone that all more or less failed due to the lack of interest and technical issues (cold fill only capable but only 2.5kW power avaible for a washer/dryer labeled beyond 10kg, that caused inpractical cycle times).
If Miele could have just scaled up their current models, put in a different heater, swap out some PCB components and add a hot water valve and sold that in all the markets they are active anyways, they most likely would have been abled to itterate on that desing and improve it to the point where it would have stood up to the requirements of carying the Miele name and price tag.
Actually, I think that the current PowerWash 2.0 system would have quite a chance if done well. PowerWash 2.0 in combination with the usually moderate load sizes and hot fills could actually pull some verry decent cleaning in out of a 120V heater, all in a pretty short time and with prett decent efficency.
Anyway, rambling way to much again...
|Post# 965895 , Reply# 7   11/4/2017 at 00:00 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
It was that three-quarters max fill for Normal/Cottons that threw one for a start. Even mentioned it several times here in the group.
What is the point of having an uber sized washing machine if you cannot fill it to capacity?
The suds spewing was a common complaint from those who purchased the first design washer, not sure how or if it got corrected by the 4840.
Other major issue was internal leaks or something that trigged the water control system. Once that was activated machine shut down and that was it for duration. Miele would advise customers to "tip machine over and drain water out". Well you can see how that advice would go over. Leaving aside paying a few thousand dollars for a washing machine, you now want a 5'2" woman who weighs around 130lbs or so to "tip over" a very large and heavy appliance.
You had other issues like detergent dispenser drawers that popped open during operation, and or leaked.
Ironically it seemed that the 3XXX series selling side by side with the 4XXX killed the latter's sales. People simply felt the 3XXX washers were a better value and vastly greater in build quality than the 4XXX. At least you could load more into the 3XXX washer instead of that insane 3/4's rule.
More is the pity really; Miele like Whirlpool knows how to build and markets commercial capacity front loaders for the European market. Instead of going off and doing something totally new for the USA (a market they apparently didn't study well enough), baby steps were likely best.
Miele obviously was going after the Whirlpool/Duet market, but failed miserably.
|Post# 965902 , Reply# 8   11/4/2017 at 00:28 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
Capacitys over here are a whole different ordeal of nonsense and useless marketing.
We have washers that claim 8kg capacity (comparable to the 18lb standard that TLs had for a while) with drums anywhere from 50l/2.8cuft up to 71l/2.5cuft.
The industrial standard for fast thourough washing was 1kg per 10l drum volume for decades almost.
That also was the commercial rating system. A 8kg commerial machine almost always had a 80l/2.8cuft drum.
Miele kept that, but now some brands focused on laundromat machines start the same trend of increasing rated capacity while not enlarging the drum.
So now, I can get a Miele 8kg domestic washer with a 66l/2.3cuft or so drum for just about 1000€.
The OctoPlus in comparison is 5000€ or more IIRC and has a true 80l/2.8cuft drum.
Given that 1000€ is already a lot of money, the true commercial machines, even though listed on the domestic website, have basicly 0 sales volume in the domestic market.
|Post# 965941 , Reply# 9   11/4/2017 at 08:18 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)  || |
Is the Miele Little Giant the same size as my W1986, but with beefier components and a higher wattage heater requiring a 30 amp circuit so that it finishes a load faster? I read something about it also having a longer lifetime expectancy.
|Post# 965965 , Reply# 10   11/4/2017 at 10:08 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
All your questions should be answered on here: www.mieleusa.com/domestic...
First of all, yes, the Little Giants are 24" standard cabinet machines, basicly what the US would consider a compact washer.
Not sure about depth though. Some of the W19xx machines were deeper then others due to a different drum used. Not sure how big that bigger drum was, but I think it should have been about the same size as the Little Giants are now.
To put that more clearly: Height and width will be simmilar, depth will be simmilar or smaller on the Little Giants.
Yes, beefier components, especially in the suspension, bearings and motor. They are rated at 30,000h of operation, which should be equal to 30,000 cycles in that machine.
"Normal" Mieles were designed for about 10,000h of operation for quite some time now, and with cycles usually exceeding 1h, you'd get a bit less then 10,000 cycles out of them.
Yes, they require a 30A 208-240V circut, basicly just like a dryer. They can heat with up to 4.8kW, allowing you to run a 140°F Cotton cycle in 49min with 2 rinses when connected to hot and cold and to run that same cycle in just 59min with 2 rinses if you only hook the machine up to cold water.
To note here is the matching dryer situation:
These dryers are not labeled with a life expectancy. My theory about that is that in usecases where a Little Giant makes sense (or in most commercial laundry situations in general) the dryers are just maintained and only are changed out when the washers are, basicly makeing washing and drying hardware always optimized for each other.
Further, for home use, only the condenser version of the Little Giant dryer is approved. The vented version will most likely not be sold to a private person. My guess about that is that the glass door used with the vented version can be a burn hazzard and thus can not be present in a machine for home use.
So paring a Little Giant washer with a cheap full size WP vented dryer would probably be a better idea then to huzzle around with a condenser dryer.
|Post# 966025 , Reply# 11   11/4/2017 at 18:16 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Miele W1986 and IIRC the W1926 were "super capacity" washers sold in USA market.
Seem to recall Miele was able to up the capacity one kilo (six instead of five)by making the drum slightly deeper.
Cannot speak for elsewhere but many commercial laundries/dry cleaners had Miele 19XX series washing machines. They were used for everything from wet cleaning to their ability to do special and or delicate fabrics such as lace tablecloths and other fine linen.
Also for washing machines that were built to pretty much commercial quality, a place could get something that self heated water. This is as opposed to the huge commercial machines that require steam, gas or other sources of heat.
|Post# 966077 , Reply# 12   11/4/2017 at 22:24 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)  || |
Thank you, Launderess!
|Post# 966080 , Reply# 13   11/4/2017 at 22:35 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Many consider the w1986 one of if not the best Miele washer sold in USA to date. I'd have one in a minute if could sort out the electrical requirments, *and* found one in good enough condition.
Very good capacity, excellent choice of cycles, but not so much pre-programming to be not user friendly for those that one a bit more control over things. The W1986 was pretty close to perfect IMHO.
What one likes about the later 19XX models is they over come some of the minor niggles of the W700 and W10XX series. Better control of the motor and drum speeds means machine will do less banging and clanging itself to death with unbalanced loads. Spins between more of the rinses gives better results in that area while cutting down on water use.
|Post# 966115 , Reply# 14   11/5/2017 at 04:38 by iej (Ireland)  || |
I think from an energy efficient point of view European manufacturers should consider making bigger than 600mm wide dryers.
There’s an assumption we are all trying to squeeze appliances into apartments, that’s not the case and plenty of European houses have space for bigger drumed machines.
Rather than one size fits all, how about a bit of choice?
I can quite happily work with an 8kg Miele washing machine but it would be absolutely fantastic if I could get my hands on a W1 dryer with the heat pump system and a much bigger drum.
I suspect it would dry the clothes a lot more effectively and efficiently (less time) by having more space to tumble.
Small dryers = over stuffed and longer cycle times.
It just seems to me like European appliance makers are a bit stuck in the notion that they need to cater exclusively to very compact spaces. I've loads of room in the laundry room and the garage etc etc etc but I can't find a decent, large dryer.
Given Miele's price point too, I suspect a high % of their customers have plenty of space for wider appliances...
|Post# 966116 , Reply# 15   11/5/2017 at 05:02 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)  || |
As Henrik said, we had a few manufacturers who tried selling 27 inch wide appliances on the European market, but people just don't buy that stuff. You are probably one of the few interested in a dryer with a bigger drum. That said, overhere in the NL we had a Huebsch (Speed Queen) gas dryer available here, pushed by the gas companies. I know noone who bought one. There is however one for sale now.
Other 27 inch appliances took up space in the stores for a long time, according to the sales people they hardly sold and the display models were sold at very low prices.
|Post# 966120 , Reply# 16   11/5/2017 at 05:25 by iej (Ireland)  || |
The issue is that I don’t see the need for non standard sizes in washing machines. They’re more than capable in 600mm wide packages.
My view of it is that you need a dryer with a drum capacity at least 50% larger to achieve rapid and non wrinkled results.
I don’t see there being a demand for oversized washers but if you could market dryers correctly with accurate capacities. A heat pump machine with a larger drum would just mean better airflow, probably very similar energy consumption and a far quicker result.
Someone just needs to produce one and market it correctly and I suspect that’s likely to be LG or Samsung.
European manufacturers were FAR too mean with fridge sizes for decades and all of a sudden every second house seems to have an Korean built side by side US fridge freezer.
Bosch / BSH, Electrolux and others now are playing catch-up on that.
|Post# 966121 , Reply# 17   11/5/2017 at 05:36 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)  || |
Well, that Huebsch dryer came on the market without a matching washer. And it was gas, you would think it would catch on with our huge resources of natural gas. Not! The other dryers didn't sell either witout the matching washers. Appliance manufacturers have tried, but they weren't able to attract customers. I'm afraid we will not see another manufacturer try again soon.
|Post# 966125 , Reply# 18   11/5/2017 at 06:22 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
Not as easy as you'd think.
Heatpump dryers are verry delicatly balanced systems. The airflow has to be higher then on most other systems to keep the cold side of the heatpump always above at least 5°C to prevent any chance of freezing over.
Meanwhile, it can't be to high as the air has to spend a certain time in the drum and both heat exchangers for proper moisture and heat transfers.
Further, a to high airflow in the drum can cause issues with items sticking to the lint filter opening. Had that happen with socks on all 3 heatpump dryers I used but never with a normal dryer.
Now, keep in mind that a 27" dryer has 150-200% the drum volume. Further the air paths will be generally longer and bigger, so a doubeling in air volume can be assumed.
That additional air has to be moved the even longer distance which requires more motor power.
That air has to be heated and cooled requiring a more powerfull and generally bigger heatpump. That also requires moves in terms of waste heat mangement.
Now, all heat exchnage rates and air speeds have to be verry precisley matched.
So it's basicly about developing an entire new product category.
And that it would be more energy efficent can be easily disproofen.
Instead of thinking about makeing the drum twice the size, it is an equall move to just half the load size.
Lets take the newest heatpump dryer platform on the market: AEGs Series 8000, for comparison reasons, a 8kg model rated A+++. That dryer platform has a 118l drum which is in theory optimal for a 6kG load.
Luckily, the EU tests include both full an half loads.
A full 8kG test load takes 173 minutes and uses 1.47kWh.
According to the bigger dryer equals more efficency theorem the half load should be about equally efficent or even more efficent.
However, the 4kG load takes 103 minutes (about 60% the time of a full load) and uses 0.83kWh (about 57% the energy).
Some reasons for that:
- The scaling of laundering processes is pretty intersting. In general, one can assume that there is a base usage that is simmilar regrdless of load size (for example the energy needed to heat up the drum and so forth) and usage caused by load size scales pretty much linearly. So, if you subtract the base usage amount, a half load will actually use about half the energy. But as you can't eliminate the base usage amount, the more maxed out the capacity is, the more efficent.
- Actually, larger loads improof the efficency of moisture exchange. With smaller loads, lots of air flow past items, thus not interacting with the fibre and consequently leaveing the drum with barely any contribution towards the drying process. A full load forces air to pass through more laundry, thus extracting more moisture per pass.
And lastly, we just don't need bigger dryers.
Most everyday loads in pretty much any household are 5kg or less. That has been stasticly determined to be a fact.
And buying a bigger dryer because 1 in 20 loads would benefit from it and 1 in 100 loads are not doable is like buying a SUV with the main reasoning being that you live next to a forest.
|Post# 966132 , Reply# 19   11/5/2017 at 07:39 by iej (Ireland)  || |
The issue I am noticing a lot here is you'll have an 8 or 9kg dryer paired with an 11 or 12kg washing machine.
So the dryer is loaded, stuffed to the gills and started and then just run for much longer to complete the load.
Splitting it means 1 laundry cycle is taking a very long time 200+ minutes to dry what was originally one washing machine load.
Also not every climate it the same. Outdoor drying isn't feasible here most of the year as we get at least 1mm of rain up to 225 days a year in some parts of Ireland. So you basically have to dry indoors, ideally using a dryer.
New build homes here are near passive and you don't really want to be introducing moisture to homes with heat recovery ventilation systems and so on. So using a heat pump dryer is the ideal solution.
So there is definitely a demand for larger, energy efficient tumble dryers particularly as the washing machines are pushing theoaf capacities to way beyond 8kg.
I'm finding my own Miele T1 and W1 pair pretty effective, except when I've has house guests who've stuffed the dryer to beyond capacity and it's resulted in insufficient tumbling.
Tightly packed washing machines with good recirculation work very effectively. Drying is a difference f story though.
|Post# 966142 , Reply# 20   11/5/2017 at 08:33 by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)  || |
Either a large family, or in a multi rental situation. My guess is if it's a single family, maybe have a housekeeper.
Los Feliz may not be Beverly Hills, but many with new money live there. Younger directors, producers, and other creative types.
It's not too far from Hollywood, downtown, or the San Fernando valley.
We have a nephew who is a gaming technical designer/developer living just off Hollywood blvd. and Wilcox ave. So far he Loves it out there. His rent is very expensive, but his commute to Burbank isn't too long. About 20 minutes.
He wanted to live in the heart of it all. He said Burbank has too many older people, and the rents aren't much lower.
He lives in a studio apt., but it's upscale. Pool, bbq, gym. Our son has already visited. They went to the big gaming convention there in June. They like Venice beach.
The babies are all leaving the nest's.
|Post# 966230 , Reply# 21   11/5/2017 at 17:08 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
This is something I prefer, speaking of Spanish Provincial,
Getting back to those Miele sets; you can tell there is money because the stands are custom built. At first glance when spotted the listing thought units were stacked, but they aren't. Someone put a good amount of effort into that laundry area.
Sellers are offering units as set or individually. A bit shy of $800 for either washer or dryer might not be such a bad deal. If units have been well taken care of and not abused they should have decades of use remaining. Providing one is willing to deal with the aforementioned limitations or whatever those uber Miele washer or dryers might not be a bad way to go.
|Post# 966358 , Reply# 22   11/6/2017 at 08:20 by Vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)  || |
Typical California price.
A cousins 2200 sq. ft. Newport not on the beach colonial is 1.2 million.
My aunts modest 4 bed. 3 bath 1,880 sq. ft. rambler off of Whittier blvd. and Cole rd. below the LA average at about $635,000.
|Post# 966398 , Reply# 23   11/6/2017 at 12:12 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 967030 , Reply# 24   11/9/2017 at 13:42 by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)  || |
The OP's link is dead.
I'm not sure if the Octoplus range, as pictured here in PWT6089 stack form (700mm wide, 750mm deep, 1930mm high, the latter equating almost exactly to 6ft 4ins), is based on the US domestic models to any appreciable extent? I haven't seen one, but I'd be surprised if it uses a plastic outer tub. Why did Miele adopt one rather than sticking to stainless steel as usual?
Regarding the Little Giant series, they can be wired for a normal 240v 50Hz 13-amp connection, albeit you lose some heater wattage. There are also 240v 50Hz 25-amp and 400v 3-phase connections available - I believe it's the latter models that can be wired for a 13-amp connection. I'm sure the US market will cater to 220v 60Hz as well. Info on connections for the 8kg Octoplus range is limited, no mention of voltages on Miele UK's site, just amps and watts, but the 10kg PW5105 seems to be available with a 240v 50Hz 25-amp connection. The only thing is, I cannot find any information on 25-amp supplies in the UK...
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|Post# 967046 , Reply# 25   11/9/2017 at 15:39 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Cl does not keep ads up forever. Unless taken down before expiration the thing will fall off on its own accord.
A good thing because some sellers or whatever on CL have an annoying habit of *NOT* taking down adverts even after a thing is sold and or otherwise not available. That AEG washer one was going after is (or was) still listed this weeks supposedly after it was gone.
This or worse people revise their CL listing to say "Sold" or "Gone". What is the point of that? If you can revise why not just take the thing down and be done?