Thread Number: 73134
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Whirlpool Senseon (Calypso) Dryer - What cracked my drum and is it repairable?
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|Post# 966028   11/4/2017 at 19:06 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Two years ago 2015 I bought a Whirlpool W & D set. There wasn't a way to plug in the dryer, but I did check out the washer. I carefully brought it back to the apartment and it sat in the garage for about 10 months, til we moved to another apartment. A two man crew brought the set into the laundry room..and I was ready for its maiden wash. The washer has worked fine. Once outfitted with right three-prong plug, the dryer panel lit up and seemed to be ready for any choice. I chose a Normal setting and pressed start...and then a pretty obvious clunk click - something really bad. It didn't take long to notice why...see photos.
Knowing it would be less costly to replace it with another dryer, I got lucky to find another identical unit about an hour or so away, and I've been using it since. I realise that having a second machine for the control panel is always a plus...but recently, I looked at what it might cost to replace the drum(see $99 for a drum)just to have a backup. Often, yes, a CL find might turn up something as much or less than replacing a drum-possibly the least painful path, but these aren't always easy to find nearby at $100 or less.
Has anyone replaced a drum or disassembled one of these dryers to share, what is involved? Also, has anyone ever seen such a cracked drum before? Any ideas about how this could happen? I don't think the drum can be fixed, but maybe some of you experienced people have repaired a cracked drum - seems like a bad idea, though. Also, I have no idea what lies beneath, but the drum rotates on something that could also be demaged.
So, at this point, I haven't downloaded a service manual or studied what's involved, but I have been thinking of saving this dryer versus removing the board and letting the rest go. Maybe. :-)
Thanks for any ideas, shared experiences or opinions...
|Post# 966034 , Reply# 1   11/4/2017 at 19:32 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
As far as I would judge, that just seems like material fatigue.
The crack starts right at the begining of the weld and the area around welds on thin metal parts is always heavily altered by the rapid heating and cooling. The material partially hardens which makes it more brittle.
If it sat unused for so long in a position that might have put some slight strain on that specific spot and was transported that way, the material might have warped ever so slightly.
Then, when you started the cycle, that verry slight deformation put strain on the more brittle area, causing it to crack.
That's just a guess though.
On the topic of replace vs repair:
Given that dryers didn't change much in the past half century, I would have given the sugestion to evaluate if you were happy with that dryer.
But as you basicly never used it, you can't take that as a meter.
Maybe decide it based on how important a matching of washer and dryer is to you while considering that Calypso parts get more rare and expensive or even went NLA.
However, if you do repair it, I think it might be a smart move to renew the rollers and felt seals while you are in there. Check pully etc. and lubricate them as needed.
And give it a thourough vacuming as well.
After that procedure, these dryers should basicly run like day 1.
|Post# 966045 , Reply# 2   11/4/2017 at 20:27 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
that is an odd place for a crack to happen...all I could figure is some sort of defect from manufacturing....those drums are pretty durable...I don't know that the crack would pose much of an issue other than if there was a part of it that would snag clothing...
although unique to the Calypso namesake, these basically are a Whirlpool/Kenmore 27" dryer setup....
what I do like about this design, is there are rollers both front and back for the drum to ride on, versus the 29" which only has rollers at the back, and a glide on the front....
these are prone to build up lint in every nook and cranny versus their 29" counterpart...so it does not hurt even to open it up, at least once a year, to clean out the ductwork, especially where the lint filter area is....also, add a drop of oil to each roller, and the idler pulley....
this video will help guide you for the basics of opening one of these up....pretty simple actually...
most times vacuums and a brush will clean out the dryer.....I prefer compressed air
keep us posted....
|Post# 966057 , Reply# 3   11/4/2017 at 21:33 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Thank you Henrik. Along with Martin's idea, maybe it was simply a material fatique. I thought the same as you guys who have seen WAAAAY more than I have in washers and dryers....just seemed like a real odd place for the drum metal to fail. I was hoping there would be a liquid metal cure, but it's too big a crack to fix via a liquid metal repair. I have welded before, but it was decades ago. But I'm wondering if welding would fix it or...once that crack appeared, the drum is officially out of round and unuseful?
In any case, the video is very good, Martin. If this dryer is similar to the one(s) in the video, I will definitely get it apart, clean it by vacuuming and using canned air(I have no compressor tools). I will definitely want to inspect and lubricate. What I couldn't understand...when the drum rotates, it moves smoothly in the 360 degree arc, but something is catching the crack at ONE point only. Otherwise, it seems like it would work anyways, with that crack. Does that make any sense? Just guessing...it seems like a screw or something is in the track(?) of the drum and when it reaches that object, which I am guessing is something hard, it hangs up and either stops or makes a nice audible complaint!
Well, I'll have to get in there and report back...thanks so much for your ideas / feedback. I love the video - easy to understand.
|Post# 966088 , Reply# 4   11/4/2017 at 23:10 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
I woulnd't risk welding, could cause more harm by thermal expansion and contraction and consequent deformation or by setting the plastic paddles on fire.
Once the drum is out, try smoothing any sharp edges of that crack with a file and/or sandpaper to prevent damage to laundry or potentially the rollers or front panel. Make sure it really is smooth from every angle so that even if something gets sucked in there it wont get damaged.
I'll risk to suppose that the crack would have little to no effect on operation even though that is just a logical conclusion and not actual knowledge.
It will be a leak of a sort. You could end up with quicker lint buildup in the cabinet or even some minor condensation. But as the crack is small, I doubt these effects would even be noticeable.
If the crack goes across the surface the rollers make contact with or extends to verry edge of the front of drum and thus creates kind of an open slit, that could have more of an effect.
You might hear a slight noise every time the crack rolls over a roller. The front corners of that potential slit could cause punctual fricton on that front seal type thing and/or the front panel potentiall harming them.
If you smooth these out well enough you should eliminate any potential for short term damage.
Long term there could be some additional wear on the front rollers and front seals. The seals could be weakend by hot moist air an the 2 corners of the slit. That small indentation running over the rollers could wear them down quicker then usual.
Also to consider is the chance of the crack leaving a permanent mark in one of the rollers. Some dryers make that typical "knock-knock-----knock-knock" noise when you start them up from cold. That is due to temporary of permanent flat spots in the rollers. Temporary flat spots are caused by the hot drum resting on the rolers after a cycle has ended thus pressing a slight deformation into the roller surface. During the next cycle, these will smooth out again once the heat softens the rollers. If the crack happens to stop on one of the rollers by the end of the cycle it could leave its imprint on that roller and depending on the depth that might not smooth out again.
Permanent flatspots can happen if a dryer sits unused for a verry long time (several months or years). The drum pushes on the rolers and leaves flat spots like with temporary flat spots, but as that compression happens in a cold state over a long period, they often are not reversible. But as that takes literaly years to happen, that shouldn't concern you.
Another thing might be that small items like socks or the edges of towels or sheets might end up getting caught in the slit as there will be air flowing from the tub through the crack. Depending on the size of the crack (which is hard to tell from pictures) that could damage items or in verry extreme and verry unlucky circumstances pull items through the slit into the cabinet potentially igniting on a hot surface or getting cought in a moveing part. Verry unlikely for such a small crack though.
If you are thinking of filling that area in and it isn't to big of a crack you might want to consider a kind of 2 component filler putty.
I get that stuff at my local hardware store. Its 6 small seperately packed pieces each consisting of 2 different puttys. There are different ones avaible; if you find one that specifically states temperature resistences prefer that, but just normal once should do the trick as well.
Take one out, kneed it in your hand until evenly mixed, then use it just like normal putty to fill in the crack so that its completly covered and thick enough so that you can later sand it into shape. That stuff starts to set within a few minutes, so work quick. The surface dosen't have to be nice, its only about completely filling the crack both inside and out.
After 24h it is fully cured. It now behaves kind of like plaster and can be easily shaped with sandpaper. On the outside you want it to be as close to the curvature and profile of the rest of the drum as possible as any discrepancys can cause noise while running. On the inside you just need to smooth it out a bit to get a nice surface. Be carefull though not to take of to much material as it might not hold up to the forces during tumbling if its to thin.
Product I'm talking about is something s8mmila4 to this: www.homedepot.com/p/Locti...
|Post# 966093 , Reply# 5   11/4/2017 at 23:48 by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)  || |
I agree with reply #1-fatigue crack eminating from spotweld.Aligning and then brazing the crack would be a good,long term fix,but paint would be burnt around repair area.2-part epoxy as suggested above probably by far the most practical though.
|Post# 966187 , Reply# 6   11/5/2017 at 11:23 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Henrik! Thanks for all your detailed thoughts..and again, Martin I appreciate the video. Thanks Brendan. I'll need to practice opening the current Whirlpool dryer being used, as the broken drum unit is in the storage.
1) I agree - welding is not the solution. Your putty suggestion is closer to what I was imagining. That is, I was imagining a product(maybe derived from the space program? lol)that resists high heat, water, and maybe even bonds chemically with the surfaces and allows sanding. I'll do searching; chemically bonding surfaces would be nice, but I also thought of using a very, very fine mesh glued(using high tensile, high heat adhesive qualities to provide a surface for the putty. It might be too much to ask, but if it was very thin, not as thin as gold leaf, but thick enough not to be objectionable after sanding, this might be a better outcome(?).
2) Yes..that crack(about 2.54 cm or 1 inch extends to the drum edge. So, as I mentioned before... once per revolution, it makes a pretty strong CLUNK noise(hitting the front rollers?). It's not a more softer noise that you described from heat/cool dynamics with drum and gravity acting together. I can feather the edges, make sure they're rounded at the ends, and try running it with renewed rollers and felt seals. The crack has probably allowed lint to the interior chambers beyond the drum. Overall, using it without trying to repair the crack isn't my favorite idea...not that it wouldn't work. My thought is, but I'll need to try it...the drum might work fine until I load some wet clothes in it. Then with heat and the weight(I never ever overload a dryer!)...the drum might complain again, once per revolution. That's just something to try and see. Jeesh. This thing is in storage, I have no room to bring it to the apartment, so I'm going to just do the best I can.
Thanks so much for your ideas and suggestions which exceeded my expectations. I'll need to practice opening my current Whirlpool Senseon (Kenmore as Martin pointed out)and clean it, because I could only get to a limited amount of lint cleaning with a vacuum and tool. I can then better take apart and clean, restore and figure out what to do with the cracked drum. And if I can, I'll repair the drum and maybe find a washer. These are becoming harder to find on CL, too.
I'll be in touch, guys. You are the best.
This post was last edited 11/05/2017 at 11:45
|Post# 966192 , Reply# 7   11/5/2017 at 12:04 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Henrik, your suggestion just led me to discover this product with more than enough heat and bond strength, sandable, etc. \
It's called Quiksteel. I would be willing to at least carefully try this product...and it's rated to 500F. Anyone out there drying clothes in 400-500F dryer and applying over 700 lbs of weight? LOL!
Just to inform others, please check out the link. It might be a solution for your next project sometime?
CLICK HERE TO GO TO ovrphil's LINK
|Post# 966198 , Reply# 8   11/5/2017 at 12:24 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
|Post# 966203 , Reply# 9   11/5/2017 at 12:39 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
|Post# 966210 , Reply# 10   11/5/2017 at 13:54 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)  || |
|Post# 966227 , Reply# 11   11/5/2017 at 16:44 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
I know, Glenn! You probably saw this :
and they're out of stock at $257.43. So $92...I had considered it.
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|Post# 966588 , Reply# 12   11/7/2017 at 11:11 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
|Post# 966607 , Reply# 13   11/7/2017 at 13:36 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
|Post# 966661 , Reply# 14   11/7/2017 at 17:34 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
That was my first idea vs. buying another tub and I have been looking. Not knowing what will show up...I was looking for one with problem electronics. I did find one for $25...but too far from me.So..meanwhile, I'll attempt repair for my first stop. I wonder if the drum is WP Model specific? Cross-match possible? Thanks.
|Post# 966673 , Reply# 15   11/7/2017 at 18:42 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
Whirlpool/Kenmore 27" machines only came in one size that I know of....
they may label them differently, Super Capacity, Capacity Plus, King Size Capacity, etc....
just stick with that sort of body style, and drop down door opening, filter in front.....
even if you got a whole donor machine inexpensively....strip it for parts....motor, blower, sensors, belt, rollers, burner/heater, etc....and scrap the rest....
curious if anyone knows, can we switch out our dryer doors for a windowed one like this?...
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|Post# 966676 , Reply# 16   11/7/2017 at 18:57 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
|Post# 967190 , Reply# 17   11/10/2017 at 17:26 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
I disassembled the working WP dryer. The video, thank you Martin, was excellent and I documented everything. I'll post photos, but it's apart right now. The rollers have no lubrication at all - just round interior metal rolling on steel posts...should I add a very light layer of white lithium grease? I know, I should look all this up...but just seems common sense to use a light amount.
WHAT A CARLOAD of DUST(photos forthcoming). I don't think anyone serviced this thing since new. There was
7 dimes and 7 penneys in the bottom case. Where's the big bills? ;-)
|Post# 967200 , Reply# 18   11/10/2017 at 18:19 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
I have used white lithium grease, or even high temp red bearing grease on the rollers....
some mention just a drop of oil.....Zoom Spout or 3-n-1 to be exact
I think grease will last longer.....just clean them really good before adding new....
check the blower fins as well, if the previous owner used dryer sheets, lint will stick to everything.....check and clean the entire duct system....
we have got to get you one of those little pancake air compressors, it will come in handy more times than you can think...Harbor Tools, if one is close to you, usually have them on sale cheap....
|Post# 967242 , Reply# 19   11/10/2017 at 23:09 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Harbor Freight has helped me before. I'm looking at a Dewalt compressor, but I'll check out what Harbor Freight offers.
I've seen a 30 weight oil recommended, too. I'll use the lithium, what the hay?
I noticed a bad front panel seal(s)..need 2 (available at link). It's about $30 for the original part(s).
This is the original part and 2 are needed:
Whatever was used broke down to nearly nothing - so it must be just a foam seal, like weatherstripping? A better solution would be a heat, water resistant foam tape. Can I use something like this:
Photos forthcoming( I took plenty).
|Post# 967346 , Reply# 20   11/11/2017 at 14:50 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Somehow that subject is still uninteresting, but the task of cleaning this wasn't boring. I cut myself a few times, before I finally woke up to using gloves - the sight of blood kind of woke me up a few times. The DIY video was great and pretty much was exact to a "T".
Before talking about photos shown...question: Is it the front and rear door panel seasl that keeps the lint from exiting into the cavity? I'm wondering how so much lint/dust was inside this dryer? I'm seeing only those seals compromised and that's why it was full of lint, collar tabs, coins( $0.76 worth), and don't want to know what else!
I have a nearly NO room at all to move, so kneeling and laying flat on my stomach was common. Feeling my age today, guys! :-)
FIRST SEQUENCE: REMOVED TOP PANEL USING SCREW DRIVER ON EACH SIDE AND FLIP BACK.
Removed three connectors, used compressed air and cleaned with damp cloth.
|Post# 967349 , Reply# 21   11/11/2017 at 14:57 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Removed the lower panel, blower mower cover, and top panel (following video instructions), belt, and removed the drum (good looking felt seals!), but check out the abundance of dirt/lint and the $0.76(actually found another penny later)reward.
|Post# 967355 , Reply# 22   11/11/2017 at 15:29 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Who says repair work doesn't pay? $0.76 richer. (Gong)
I found a 6-page, in perfect condition Troubleshooting Guide tucked in the back of the control panel...scanned a page there.
When I remove sheet metal screws, I usually toss in a pile and use as needed. But as I worked this first tear-down, I made a sketch of the part and put the screws as they appear, instead, til I reassemble.
Blower wheel/fan was clean, but I don't know how to remove to clean it any further; seal looked looked. I know, I should replace it, right?
MOST IMPORTANT - The panel door Seal between the front bulkhead is kaPUTZ! It's $30 plus delivery from Searspartsdirect or Appliancepartspros, and I've asked if there's an alternative that's less costly. I know this is a special seal, fire resistant. So thanks if there's an alternative to paying that much for 48" (2 pieces) of foam seal tape.
I'm guessing that the front panel seal is why there is so much dust, lint, coins, collar tabs, etc. in the lower cavity areas?
Thanks for looking, commenting...and after getting this far, I hope it all works after I put it back together..lol!
|Post# 967357 , Reply# 23   11/11/2017 at 15:35 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
I'll be tackling the broken tub as soon as I get this cleaned up again. I know the focus was repairing the other identical WP dryer, but I thought this would be good to post anyways as the next comments will be....I either repaired the drum or I didn't...and either way, maybe the thread will help someone, sometime.
|Post# 967368 , Reply# 24   11/11/2017 at 16:37 by henene4 (Germany)  || |
Once again, I'd ask my local hardwear store. Something self sticking, heat (or preferably fire) resistant sealing.
Even if it's not 100% suitable thermanly whise, you still could use it. You tore the machine apart yourself, so if there would be a fire (which is unlikely as you are tacking verry good care of it, but still not impossible) you'd most likely wouldn't get any manufacturer backup anyways.
|Post# 967383 , Reply# 25   11/11/2017 at 17:56 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
simple window weather stripping works perfect as replacements....cost is around a few dollars at Lowes....they come in a variety of densities and widths....
some lint build up and coins can come from around the drum seals, this is normal on just about every dryer...
where the majority of it comes from the 'intake' air, usually what is found surrounding at floor level of the area the machine is located, people who have pets they don't clean up after, you will find loads of fur....
I had one unit from a hair salon....between the long hairs that were sucked in, and the hairsprays, it was like a plastic type web all inside....
when you put that bottom panel back in place, feel underneath, and you find the slot that allows the greatest amount of air into the dryer...
makes you think of the air quality going into the dryer, and across, if not stuck to, your clothing!!!
|Post# 967394 , Reply# 26   11/11/2017 at 18:26 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
Henrik - check. I'll try that and Martin's idea both. The stuff they used reminded me so much of...
Mercedes Benz who used a biodegradable wiring harness cover, of all things, on some of their 199-'s vehicles, my 1990 300E (154K)never needed it,but the foam tape on this dryer has dis-integrated.
This foam tape to seal between the front bulkhead and door looks ultra cheap.
At least it didn't come from a hair salon and spiders weren't crawling around. I can imagine a thread...no better not ...but it would be entertaining...."My New Used Dryer" and show the different ranges of clean, dirty, and omg.
Thanks for keeping up with the thread, Henrik and Martin.
|Post# 967478 , Reply# 27   11/12/2017 at 11:54 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
|Post# 967483 , Reply# 28   11/12/2017 at 12:46 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
yeah, grease isn't exactly going to allow the rollers to spin somewhat freely by your hand....but when applied pressure from the drum, they will turn with ease...
it will be super quiet, smooth, and wont wear out as fast as oil will....
but its a matter of choice, and what you feel works for you best....
just DON'T use WD-40!!!!
|Post# 967565 , Reply# 29   11/12/2017 at 18:44 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
I had that OUT of my mind right from the get-go. Maybe I can give the lithium a chance to dance by the light of the rolling drum.
I'll finish this one tomorrow...cleaned and ready for new foam tape seal.
It's nice if you keep at least one extra washer and dryer in the works, so when repairs are needed, washing isn't held up. You have a train of washers, as do many others around the aw.org world.
|Post# 968060 , Reply# 30   11/15/2017 at 08:28 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
The dryer is up and running again. Other than a door spring evading me for a day(fell on the floor, under the dryer), and some struggle with identifying which wire goes where for the moisture sensors, and a loose metal screw on the back that allowed a rattle (thought it was the rear bulkhead loosening up!)...it's quiet and smooth. This was a good learning experience and the online videos at applianceparts was so helpful. But back when I first bought this unit, I tried to disassemble it intuitively. Wrong idea. I released ONE screw in the back that holds one side of the rear bulkhead that holds the two rollers for the drum. It shifted the bulkhead down and I couldn't get the other screws to go back in, that I removed in some other places. I gave up and just used the dryer as is. Wrong again. It caused the drum to become off center, dropping down. Effectively, the front part of the drum was higher than the back. The moisture sensors never had the clothes hit their surfaces in many cases, and fortunately it didn't cause any damage, once I discovered what happened. So, cleaning it was doubly good.
Now I'll tackle the other unit's broken drum. Thanks again for your help.
|Post# 968066 , Reply# 31   11/15/2017 at 08:33 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)  || |
its all good....as you start to go through more, and take a few apart, you will grasp how some units are designed a bit different than others....but in general, the basic stuff is there....
there is a LOT more info today for tearing one down and repairs than what was available back when most of us were younger....heck the internet or youtube didn't exist....that really was trial and error.....
keep us posted on your progress....we too could learn something new along the way....
|Post# 968071 , Reply# 32   11/15/2017 at 08:42 by panthera (Rocky Mountains)  || |
Would fix it. Welding by a competent shop would, too - and, no, they wouldn't melt the fins or set up weird stress patterns. Goodness, welding has advanced a teeny, tiny bit since the 19th century.
However - this is just another example of what trash Whirlpool is building these days. Something like this should never have happened. Makes me wonder how poorly their washing machine baskets are put together.
|Post# 968093 , Reply# 33   11/15/2017 at 11:17 by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )  || |
That's for sure, Martin!
This WP GEW9868KQ0 must feel like a cheap tin can that a small animal could dent or chew up. Certainly. the panel is delicate that houses the lone board.( In fact, an object drooped from an upper shelf onto the panel and left a very small dent.
The web has become such a resource...younger users have no idea how slow and primitive (yet fun)the web used to be. In 1990, when I started using the WWW, I'm sure aw.org would be just a BBS. MODEMS ruled and the faster rated modems were like GODS along with as much RAM you could afford(4mb was all I could afford, but needed 8mb for my new DEC-Tandy, rebadged 25 mz.,clock-doubled(50mz)Windows3.11/OS2(partioned dual boot)pc "hot rod". 1 mil users were surfing the web back then and if not for BBS groups and tablature data bases, simple text...it was really primitive. So you early appliance hobbyists were roughing it, with no web or litle online resources. I feel lucky, minus all the web ads.
Just from online videos and Q and A's, I discovered moisture sensors and how dryer sheets can coat those sensors or a small load my never interract with those door- mounted sensors, which will not stop the dryer for desired dryness. So those got cleaned with alcohol. I haven't, but should, test those sensors using a fuller load, to enable the sensors to come into more direct contact with the clothes. Reportedly, that's how they optimally work. I hope I replaced the two moisture sensor wires correctly. It hasn't smoked yet! A how-to video instructed, black wire to top sensor and yellow to the bottm one, but thats on a duet...not my WP model. I can't always read a scematic, which was available in the troubleshoot guide(BONUS FIND IN PANEL ENCLOSURE😀) YES,I marked the tab, but cleaned it off by accident during cleaning. So, though many of you can tear down appliances with your eyes closed, for newbies like me here's an age old advice:take your time. Find online help, ask before you make a mistake, document your path into and out, and keep your tools and parts ororganized. Try to enjoy the process(refreshments!!) and take break if you get frustrated. Anyway..common sense stuff...
Panthera - Right, I see J.B. Weld and another product that looked as good if not better. Quality and durability were around another century,earlier. Considering this dryer is from 2001 and still rolling, I'm glad it doesn't need a drum repair and that it still works!
I'll be posting photos of the damaged dryer drum...and well see how repairing it works out.😏
This post was last edited 11/15/2017 at 12:17