Thread Number: 73632
/ Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
2003 cadillac northstar,120,000 mi =iffy buy? |
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Post# 972385 , Reply# 1   12/8/2017 at 14:04 (2,301 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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Oh no, here comes all the bad press concerning the Northstar V8. My little 1998 Eldorado, although having very few miles, is the most trouble-free engine I have ever owned in over 50 years of driving V8 cars. The one piece of garbage I had was a Japanese Mitsubishi engine in a Chrysler K car. The Northstar engine was probably one of the most technologically complex electronic V8's produced and GM made tens of thousands of them if not more. They continue to be not the car you take to Gomer at the fillin station to work on. As with buying any previously owned car (aka used) mileage and how the vehicle was cared for are important.
20 years later, purrs like a kitten, leaks nothing, as powerful as day one
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This post was last edited 12/08/2017 at 16:34 |
Post# 972407 , Reply# 3   12/8/2017 at 16:57 (2,301 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)   |   | |
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Post# 972418 , Reply# 4   12/8/2017 at 18:11 (2,301 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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I have a 98 Seville SLS. It has the 4.6l NorthStar.
IF the car has had all of the fluid changes done in a timely matter and the motor mounts are sound, I probably wouldn't have any issues buying another one. That being said if it hasn't been taken care of, don't even bother with it. Those engines are meant to be ran hard, they are a great performer. They need their coolant changed quite frequently or the head gasket issues happen. When the head gasket issue happens, you may as well have the thing time-serted because thats really the only way to put it all back together. Most mechanics won't touch a northstar because they are.. a pita. It is normal for a northstar to use about a quart or two of oil in between oil changes. More than that, something is off. But I love my seville. Here before long I'll probably find a good used DTS with the performance package. Here's a bit of production data: 2010 was the last year of engine production at the Livonia, Michigan engine plant, but enough were produced to use in some 2011 model Cadillacs. We have totalled Northstar Engine production from 1993 Onward. Obviously crate engines, Shelby 4.0's, warranty replacement engines are not counted in these totals. Cadillac SLS: 1994 - 24,308 1995 - 21,186 1996 - 20,465 1997 - 22,657 1998 - 13,221 1999 - 15,371 2000 - 16,951 2001 - 14,595 2002 - 15,137 2003 - 12,061 2004 - 6,240 -------------------- Total: 182,192 Cadillac STS (Seville) 1993 - 20,560 1994 - 22,406 1995 - 17,745 1996 - 17,677 1997 - 22,100 1998 - 21,300 1999 - 27,081 2000 - 17,533 2001 - 13,461 2002 - 11,440 2003 - 7,775 2004 - 274 Cadillac STS (Sigma body) 2005 - 18,087 2006 - 8,348 2007 - 4,094 2008 - 216 2009 - 1,737 2010 - N/A -------------------- Total: 231,834 Cadillac STS-V 2006 - 1,306 2007 - 642 2008 - 396 2009 - 96 -------------------- Total: 2,440 Cadillac Deville (Base) 1996 - 100,250 1997 - 92,059 1998 - 101,834 1999 - 102,501 2000 - 68,052 2001 - 65,260 02 - 68,268 03 - 61,452 04 - 59,254 05 - 50,240 -------------------- Total: 769,170 Cadillac Concours (Deville) 94 - 32,490 95 - 17,655 96 - 11,022 97 - 9,873 98 - 9,330 99 - 9,752 -------------------- Total: 90,122 Cadillac DHS (Deville) 00 - 12,864 01 -13,657 02 - 12,041 03 - 8,470 04 - 7,453 05 - 3,954 -------------------- Total: 58,439 Cadillac DTS (Deville) 2000 - 17,012 01 - 14,615 02 - 14,376 03 - 10,381 04 -8,717 05 -4,183 Cadillac DTS 06 - 59,937 07 - 44,714 08 - 38,201 09 - 17,123 10 - N/A 11 - N/A -------------------- Total: 229,259 Cadillac DTS Performance 2006 - 7,798 2007 - 3,810 2008 - 3,240 2009 - 1,163 2010 - N/A 2011 - N/A -------------------- Total: 16,011 Eldorado (Base/ESC) 1994 - 15,199 1995 - 15,559 1996 - 12,197 1997 - 11,368 1998 - 11,664 1999 - 9,321 2000 - 8,308 2001 - 5,744 2002 - 3,127 -------------------- Total: 92,487 Cadillac Eldorado Touring Coupe (ETC) 1993 - 9,336 1994 - 9,748 1995 - 9,671 1996 - 8,573 1997 - 8,648 1998 - 6,751 1999 - 6,851 2000 - 5,634 2001 - 4,343 2002 - 2,205 Total: 71,758 Cadillac XLR 2004 - 4,387 2005 - 4,190 2006 - 2,989 2007 - 1,095 2008 - 1,150 2009 - 653 2010 - N/A 2011 - N/A Total: 14,464 Cadillac XLR-V 2006 - 1,147 2007 - 410 2008 - 392 2009 - 239 2010 - N/A Total: 2,188 Cadillac Allante 1993 - 4,670 Buick Lucerne CXS (VIN Y Northstar) 2006 - 7,312 2007 - 3,884 2008 - 4,207 -------------------- Total: 15,403 Buick Lucerne Super (VIN 9 Northstar) 2008 - 680 2009 - 712 2010 - N/A 2011 - N/A -------------------- Total: 1,392 Pontiac Bonneville GXP 2004 - 2,420 2005 - 4,193 -------------------- Total: 6,613 Cadillac SRX 04 - N/A 05 - 7,857 06 - 4,792 07 - 2,912 08 - 2,321 09 - 637 -------------------- Total: 18,519 Complete Total Northstars (4.6 only) 1993-2009: 1,806,961 (2010/11 years not accounted for) Oldsmobile Aurora: 1995 - 47,823 1996 - 24,133 1997 - 27,927 1998 - 25,721 1999 - 19,635 2000 - Not produced that year 2001 - 14,575 2002 - 1,672 2003 - N/A -------------------- Total (4.0L): 161,486 Total Northstar Engine figures: 4.0 & 4.6 : 1,968,447. Some years are not accounted for in this total. Mods please make this a sticky if you deem it worthy. If anyone else can complete the missing years please do so; but also please respect this information as property of www.cadillacforums.com... (www.cadillacforums.com...) and www.northstarperformance.com... (www.northstarperformance.com...). Credits to Evrett as well as Submariner409 for suggesting the use of Comp9 to compile this info |
Post# 972447 , Reply# 7   12/8/2017 at 23:17 (2,301 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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Post# 972538 , Reply# 9   12/9/2017 at 09:25 (2,301 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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1) The Northstar family was the most advanced engine of it's era (yes, pedantic ones, but I'm talking about commercially available cars). It was to replace the 1950's GM engines (not that there's a thing wrong with them, heck they replaced the Northstar family after the problems became too great). 2) When it's working, it's a great engine. 3) Sadly, and not at all unlike other GM engines of that era, gasket failure can be a problem - the head gasket problems aren't made up but they also aren't exclusive to that particular engine. Look up the 3.1/3.8 engine and you'll know why $35,000 Buick Century cars in otherwise mint condition are going for <$1000 all over the place. 4) Unlike the 3.1/3.8, however, the Northstar was never designed for major repair work. It was a throw-away engine. That's the real source of the problem. (Before the fanboyz attack me, do show the the GM rebuild number for any Northstar family member, do, puh-lease? Polestar doesn't count, dahlinks. Oh, right, you can't because, GM didn't offer them.....)
So, here's the deal: If the gasket problem was fixed and the engine otherwise well maintained, then, yes, you can pick up some really beautiful Caddies at excellent prices with one and you'll be happy. But, if the head gasket wasn't fixed in it then, yes, sooner or later it will cause problems which are enormously expensive and time consuming to fix.
There's tons of good articles out there, written by people who love Cadillac and who (understandably) feel this engine family was brilliant. Their performance and reliability were otherwise great. Again, though - Cadillac went back to a 1950s engine because the damage to their reputation was just too great. Yes, pedantic ones, it's been updated a wee bit.
Personally, I'd go for it if everything else is OK and the money is there to deal with the 'when' not 'if'. But, then, excepting our 1989 Fleetwood Brougham d' Disaster, I've never met a Cadillac I didn't like.
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Post# 972645 , Reply# 10   12/9/2017 at 17:44 (2,300 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)   |   | |
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and we knew a guy with 200k on his notorious PRV V-6 too, but with a used car it's hard to know. The point is why bother when there are other better, more bulletproof engines out there? Ward's annual "10 Best Engines" is always an informative read and imo CUs reliability charts are quite accurate, at least over my 50 years of watching them.
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Post# 972688 , Reply# 13   12/9/2017 at 22:14 (2,300 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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GM's quality hit a low point in the last '80s. Our Fleetwood Brougham d'Disaster (the top of the line Cadillac) was the worst car I have ever owned or driven, and that includes YUGOs. Seriously. But our 1974 Sedan deVille is really well built, my Chevy Malibu (98) was excellent, our '98 Buick Century (now that the head gasket problem *cough*, *cough* has been fixed) is safe and really well made). Our S10? OK, yikes, yeah. I won't compare any of them to the Subaru or the Chrysler mini-van in terms of build quality - but there is a clear improvement that set in in 1997 and continues to this day. Heck, Buick is frequently the best built American car in tests. So, yeah - it's a mixed bag. I feel about Ford the same way I feel about Whirlpool, and the fact that Chrysler's quality has improved so much under FIAT speaks volumes, not just for those of us from Europe. Roger Smith's damage wasn't done overnight, it's not fair to judge GM of today by the horrors he inflicted upon them back then. Still, though, you're right - when you buy a Cadillac, you are looking at the same level of unreliability as a when you buy a UK made car. Given the record of GMC and Buick and Chevy, that's pretty sad. |
Post# 972691 , Reply# 14   12/9/2017 at 22:26 (2,300 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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Interestingly, I saw a YouTube video today that mentioned NorthStar...and not favorably. Indeed, it came in at #1 on a 10 worst list.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO LordKenmore's LINK |
Post# 972695 , Reply# 15   12/9/2017 at 22:36 (2,300 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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'98 Buick Century (now that the head gasket problem *cough*, *cough* has been fixed) is safe and really well made). Our S10? OK, yikes, yeah.
I knew someone who had a Buick in the 90s. I was a person who was (then) a believer that US cars were total junk that fell totally apart at 100K miles, and I was absolutely amazed by that car. The last time I saw it, it had well over 100K miles, and it still looked and rode well.
One of the bus drivers I ride with today buys only American. She apparently got 200K miles out of a Chevrolet truck...which then was moved onto someone else in her family, who put many more miles on it. |
Post# 972697 , Reply# 16   12/9/2017 at 22:38 (2,300 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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Post# 972730 , Reply# 17   12/10/2017 at 02:10 (2,300 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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I remember at one point the cadillac dealer here had pallets and pallets of warranty-replaced northstar engines waiting to go back to where ever they were going.
I can only imagine how many northstars were replaced under warranty, or how many were fully rebuilt. That being said, it is still an awesome engine for the power. I am very attached to my seville. I have always wanted the next gen seville, in all wheel drive with the 6 speed transmission and northstar engine, but I just never could bring my self to buy one when I've had the opportunities. Now, if I could find a 92 brougham d'elegance with the 5.7, I'd buy that in a heart beat if it was in good condition. "Mary, Alice, Louise...this isn't a car - it's a land yacht!" |
Post# 972789 , Reply# 19   12/10/2017 at 11:30 (2,300 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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...I see thread growing and growing like "old car vs new car" one. I think a good question to ask is "how much am I going to be driving this used car I'm contemplating buying?" I tend to look at things through my old-man eyeballs. I don't drive a lot. My 1998 Cadillac Eldorado has 24,000 miles on it. Being a realist, I know I will be dead before it ever sees 34,000. My daily driver, a 2001 F150 has 64,000. The Buick comes out into the sunlight about 6 times a year to a local show or a spin around the block. I forget that young people (anyone younger than me) often drive a lot and enjoy it. They also depend on their cars for work, errands and other important stuff.
I'm sure that guy in the Youtube video is knowledgeable. There's another good video (that I won't waste my time posting) that shows a guy comparing engines long with a Cadillac Northstar. The car, the engine and the guy in the video all look like they were ready for the scrap heap long ago. He places the camera under the car to show "oil" pouring out as the engine tries it's best to run. It's actually green antifreeze.
You never know with any car what may happen. My next-door neighbor recently bought a TOL 2015 Lexus sedan with less than 10,000 mles...lots of room especially in the back seat and automatic everything. The car caught on fire in his driveway and stunk to high-heaven. The HOA thoughtfully made him tow it away.
I'm not sure why I'm adding this since it has nothing to do with the thread. My 2 lady friends who live a few houses away showed me their very pricey new Tesla 4 weeks ago. I was impressed that the car could open the garage door, back itself out into the drive way, close the door and then wait for the "driver" (who needs that?) They wanted to take me out on I-10 (where 80 is the average speed in the slow lane) and demonstrate how the car passes vehicles automatically at the touch of a button. Being a nervous old guy I respectfully declined. Somehow older ladies driving a car that has a dashboard consisting mainly of a very large screen and little else doesn't seem kosher. I didn't see anything that even looked like PRNDL.
My 2 lady friends were moved from the Eisenhower Medical Trauma Center on Friday for an indefinite stay at a recovery facility. Apparently the accident on a local street near me was very bad. The Tesla was hit by 2 other vehicles traveling pretty fast and is now a total loss. They are still trying to determine who is at fault but it doesn't look good for my friends, 2 retired Canadian Air Force nurses. They insist the car was performing some self-maneuvering. Who knows?
I have a feeling that if pressed to tell the truth, Madame Zolta would say "save money, take bus".
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Post# 972794 , Reply# 20   12/10/2017 at 11:47 (2,300 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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I hope your friends recover soon! It's awfully hard to separate fact from fiction when it comes to cars. Example: I recently picked up a '98 Buick Century for $750. The pleasant young man selling it flat out said: Antifreeze disappears in it! No Mayo inside the oil filler cap, no computer diagnostics indicating a bad head gasket or anything else, just disappears! He was genuinely baffled. Buick dealers here had told him it would cost nearly $2K to fix.
So, yeah, I buy him (and, boy is this car a 'him', call him Jamie), run down to the local Walmart (GM actually caries the same product, but good luck getting a dealer to admit to it), put two cans in and et voilá, the magic disappearing act is gone for good (yes, pedantic ones, for good. Lots of documented cases of it being gone and staying gone for over 50K miles).
Unfortunately, though - the gasket problem GM had with the Northstars is a real thing. It was compounded by the headbolt problem (gosh, now, why does that ring a bell...Oldsmobile Diesel prestressed anyone?) and the intentional throw-away design of the engine (still waiting for that rebuild kit number, dahlinks....).
So, yeah - if you find a Cadillac with a Northstar you like and you either don't mind blowing $5K on it at some point or trashing it or the owner has proof they had it fixed...go for it!
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