Thread Number: 73942  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
New Miele W1/T1 coming soon for US market
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Post# 976867   1/4/2018 at 17:18 by mielerod69 (Australia)        

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Hi everyone,

finally the time has come for Miele to release the new W1/T1 washers and dryers for the US market.
The control panel seems to be unique for the US market. Also the dryers will be heat pump.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


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Post# 976869 , Reply# 1   1/4/2018 at 17:35 by marky_mark (Sitges, Barcelona)        

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The first thing I notice about that photo is that the opening of the doors on the both the washer and dryer is reversed.  With Miele, normally the washer sits to the right of the dryer.  In this photo, the dryer is on the right.


Post# 976871 , Reply# 2   1/4/2018 at 17:55 by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Instruction manuals available to download

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Excellent manuals with lots of detailed information and customisable programming.

Instruction manuals are available online.

Two washer models

WWH860 and WWF060

Two heat-pump dryers

TWI180WP and TWF160WP



Post# 976926 , Reply# 3   1/5/2018 at 00:03 by henene4 (Germany)        
You should love these

Really, they are awesome!

Post# 976936 , Reply# 4   1/5/2018 at 02:42 by mielerod69 (Australia)        
There are actually 3 washer models

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I forgot to add the WWH660. TwinDos no PowerWash system

Post# 976948 , Reply# 5   1/5/2018 at 07:33 by iej (Ireland)        

I have a pair of these machines and they really are outstandingly good.

They have swapped the doors around on the new range I think because it followed the logic that people move things left to right and start with the washer and move to the dryer.

I'm glad to see they've updated the Twin DOS button. I would assume that was because of feedback in Europe and I wouldn't be surprised if it changes here too. The original layout works but it's too easy to forget to put the system on. It has a single touch button that triggers a menu asking you about Whites/Coloured clothes and light (less detergent), normal or heavy (prewash-added) soil levels.

Being able to leave the automatic dosing on permanently would be very useful but for some reason the designers don't let you do that on the model I have anyway. You have to activate it each time. That works OK if you're careful but we've one member of the household who keeps accidentally running the machine without any detergent.

Other than that they're very very good machines from a technical point of view.

Also the dryer is just too notch. Yes it's not huge by US standards but it's a very practical system and it gets the job done very gently and with minimal energy. We run the dryer a lot and going from a vented Miele to that T1 machine has cut the power consumption by a huge amount and I would much rather not add unnecessary emissions to the environment by using a dryer that's basically heating the back yard.

The washer is extremely quiet and the dryer is about as quiet as a dryer can be without putting it into a sound proof box.

Also the amount of heat they throw out to the room is minimal. They're nothing like a traditional condenser. They do release a little bit of heat but it's probably less than you'd feel from an externally connected vented dryer.

Also the Miele system for keeping the condenser clean is simple - a very very good filter in the plinth and two stage filtration in the door. Bosch messes around a lot with self cleaning condensers they rely on flushing the condensate through the condenser. Miele is far more simple and practical.

Word of warning:

Never, ever, EVER EVER even think about using dryer sheets in a heat pump dryer! You will cost the condenser and reduce the life of the machine. Also they just don't work as you won't get the same temperature profile as a traditional dryer. If you want fragrance - add it as detergent or conditioner to wash or use the Miele fragrance flacons.

Also the Miele detergent system is good, if pricy. The main thing to remember is it doses very precisely and quite sparingly compared to what you might do yourself and as a result you'll get a lot of washes out of one of the packs. Even so, it's still a bit eye watering pricy.

It basically consists of a custom manufactured high end colour detergent in the blue pack and a peroxide bleach (with optical brighteners too) in the clear pack. The machine doses the enzyme rich colour detergent first, does the breaking down of gunk phase then a shot of bleach goes in later, giving you a bit of oxidation and brightening.

If you select colours, as far as I'm aware of doesn't dose anything from the bleach cartridge.

So basically you're getting something closer to a commercial machine using component detergents.

The machines don't dispense fabric softener automatically, unless you opt to use the refillable tanks and just use a normal liquid detergent in tank 1 and fabric softener in tank 2.

Also I think the pod dosing is a complete gimmick! It's also an incredible waste of plastic and I'm really a bit surprised Miele even launched such a thing!

Their wool / silks detergent is excellent but just get the big container full of it. There's absolutely no advantage whatsoever to the pods. It's like Nespresso for washing machines! Only less useful.


Post# 976968 , Reply# 6   1/5/2018 at 11:07 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I thought about posting this on monday when I found out about it, but I figured no one wanted to hear my fanboy freakout about it :P

Anyways, here is a bit more info.

They are planning on an April '18 launch.

Guess who has a set pre-ordered? ;-)


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Post# 976995 , Reply# 7   1/5/2018 at 15:42 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        
Been looking through the manuals

At least we now have manuals with actual temperatures and spin speeds, and it looks like there are a lot of options available for each cycle - even if you want to wash baby clothes.

The normal cycle references the DOE regulations so perhaps the other cycles are not as strict as the normal cycle. We probably get no options on that cycle.

The soil level setting also controls the level of the rinse water, so I guess if you have a heavy soil load you are going to get more water in the rinses.

Selecting heavy soil automatically adds a prewash

One model provides power wash similar to LG which continuously sprays clothes

I like that the manual describes the soil levels; for example normal soil is defined as clothes with no visible soil, or those with a few soil marks.


Separate rinse and spin cycle

About 20 different cycles for different types of clothes

120V machines with heaters

Temp's are defined as:

warm 85F

warm+ 105

Hot 120F

Hot+ 140F

Sanitize 170F

You can use a pin code to prevent the washer from being started by children

You can increase the 25 minute prewash up to 37 minutes
You can increase the water level in the rinse in the settings - good for those with allergies

It gives load values in pounds like we use in North America, Max load is 17.6 pounds if that means anything.

It has a phone app for Android and Iphones.

So things look better than before - at least from the manual.

The heat pump dryers are interesting and If I used electricity to dry my clothes I might consider them.

The machines are stackable, but I guess.. don't be too short lol.

You can buy a stand to raise the washer so that's good too.


Post# 977018 , Reply# 8   1/5/2018 at 18:18 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Why is Miele always mucking with things...

I am concerned about the 120v dryer.. How's that going to work?


Post# 977022 , Reply# 9   1/5/2018 at 18:33 by logixx (Germany)        

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It's a heat pump dryer. The European Miele ones only draw 1,100 watts, Bosch models 1,000 watts, Whirlpool ones 950 watts and Electrolux only 700 watts.

Post# 977023 , Reply# 10   1/5/2018 at 18:35 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Given my horrible experience with that LG 27" combo unit... Eh.. lol. I dunno, I guess I'll find out when mine get here.

Post# 977026 , Reply# 11   1/5/2018 at 19:02 by appnut (TX)        
Manuals

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I cannot find them :-(

 


Post# 977037 , Reply# 12   1/5/2018 at 20:25 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
You'll have to make do for now

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Post# 977039 , Reply# 13   1/5/2018 at 20:26 by appnut (TX)        

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Thank you.


Post# 977041 , Reply# 14   1/5/2018 at 20:34 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
You want to look for

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Miele washer models

WKG 120 & WKG 130 for a start. Those are the "W1" models IIRC being currently sold in Europe and elsewhere.





In English:






Post# 977043 , Reply# 15   1/5/2018 at 20:37 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

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You're welcome!

Post# 977044 , Reply# 16   1/5/2018 at 20:48 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
One's initial impressions

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Both the W1 washer and T1 dryer seem interesting if not impressive. Especially when compared to what is currently on offer for USA laundry appliance market.

If am being honest am not totally won over by heat pump dryers, but will wait to see what reviews come out after Americans get their mitts on the thing and issue reports. Mayhaps ditch both the Whirlpool portable and AEG Lavatherm? Likely not, but then again one never knows, do one?


As for the TwinDos system, unless things have changed they aren't anything special detergent/laundry bleach wise. Taking away convenience and whatever neither actual product rated any higher than say a good TOL detergent like Persil.

www.test.de/Waschmaschine...


Post# 977051 , Reply# 17   1/5/2018 at 21:33 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        
W1

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Bob,
Heres a link to the WWH860 washer. These are impressive machines. I like that you change temp and spin speed settings to the actual temp and rpm and, of course the QuickIntenseWash cycles. Though, admittedly, Im glad I didnt wait to buy a new machine and went ahead with the Little Giants.
Manuals are on the US Miele site. Go to Customer Service, then my manuals and type in the models number. HTH


CLICK HERE TO GO TO aamassther's LINK


Post# 977052 , Reply# 18   1/5/2018 at 21:44 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Stand corrected

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Very well done, didn't think to search the MieleUSA site via model number. Only looked at what was listed.

Post# 977053 , Reply# 19   1/5/2018 at 21:54 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Off top of one's head

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Just glancing through the US version of manual a few things caught one's eye.

Frist is the use of chlorine bleach. This may not be new, but my Big Bertha makes no such mention nor provision.

Two, you cannot use powdered detergent for the pre-wash, only liquid. If you want to use the pre-wash manual suggest using the TwinDos system.

"Tip: Reinsert the insert into the
detergent dispenser drawer before next
using liquid detergent."

"Tip: Use TwinDos dispensing if you
want to run a program with pre-wash."

Indeed it does seem the washer is set up either via dispenser or Twindos for default to be liquid detergents.


Post# 977054 , Reply# 20   1/5/2018 at 22:01 by appnut (TX)        

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thank you all very much for all the help.  I'd love to be able to select wash temperature by actual water temperature--same with spin speed.  but the average U.s. consumer is probably too dumb or just programmed for all cold water washing. 


Post# 977061 , Reply# 21   1/5/2018 at 22:43 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        

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@Launderess, happy to pass on info learned from THS! As mentioned up thread, thought it was interesting Miele actually tailored this series to the American consumer, some.
@appnut, agreed, its nice to be able to select the exact temp instead of relying on what the manufacturer decides is said temp and keeping the actual figures a secret.
but the average U.s. consumer is probably too dumb or just programmed for all cold water washing.
Thats usually been my assumption as to the reason companies like Miele dont offer all of the features they do in other parts of the world. Even my Little Giants dont offer all of the options that are available in European models. Though I think the US obsession with litigation plays a part too.


Post# 977088 , Reply# 22   1/6/2018 at 02:04 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
It isn't all rainbows and unicorns with regard to cycles

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You have heavy, normal and light soiling level options.

Heavy adds a pre-wash, but then you must use a liquid detergent, twindos or those caps.

If using pre-wash then one cannot use chlorine bleach.





This post was last edited 01/06/2018 at 06:36
Post# 977103 , Reply# 23   1/6/2018 at 06:52 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Now the dryers may be a game changer

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For many that until now have relied upon Whirlpool/Kenmore or other "compact" vented dryers. Here you'll have something in these heat pump dryers that takes a full wash load (8kgs/17.6lbs from matching washer) and will dry using a standard 120v/15amp circuit.

Have been through manuals for both dryers listed above and neither gives any sort of range of drying times. There is the standard advice for all condenser dryers about spinning wash at highest final rpms possible to remove much water as possible. Miele states that spinning at 1600rpms will save have an energy savings of 20% moisture versus 1000rpms.


Amps x volts gives us total watts. That means in theory max draw for these dryers is 1800 watts. But don't think they'll pull anywhere near. So in end will have a condenser type dryer that pulls nearly what my vintage Whirlpool with a 1400 watt heater does.




Post# 977111 , Reply# 24   1/6/2018 at 07:47 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        

The restrictions regarding the prewash and chlorine bleach are the same as those on the 30XX machines which allow chlorine bleach, probably because they are using the same dispenser compartment for both.

If I was doing a prewash I would just dump the amount of whatever I want into the drum before starting the cycle( which is what I do now) and not bother with the prewash dispenser cup.

So far I am pleased with this offering and if I didn't have natural gas for drying I would consider the dryer.

If anyone is getting one of these please share your experience with us.





Post# 977120 , Reply# 25   1/6/2018 at 09:10 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Reply #16

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I found it interesting that www.test.de... lists the "Maximum liquor temperature in the 60C label programme". (Near the bottom of the test tables; scroll down. Some machines don't have this, I assume they were tested before this parameter was introduced).

And boy, are there some revelations!

The Candy Grand-O achieves 51C. (Hoover/Candy was previously slated by UK Which? for washing at 43C temperatures).

The Panasonic NA-148XRW gets to 38C. (A footnote says no longer available).

And the AEG L8FE74485 has a maximum temperature of... (fanfare)... 26C!
Ye Gods!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK


Post# 977146 , Reply# 26   1/6/2018 at 13:36 by henene4 (Germany)        
Laundress

Drying times are about an hour give or take for a 4kg/8lbs load, more towards longer though. A full load should take about 130min, or about 2h give or take, given that the load comes from a matching washer.
That however is for the Cotton cycle. Some cycles can take far longer in relation to load size. The denims cycle is excellent (our old Miele dried all jeans extremly carefully, but even mangaed to get the thickest seams completly dry), but takes about 2h for a half load.
But then again, even the fullest loads use less the 2kWh and dry incredibly gently.


Given that for a full 8kg load, you really would be stuffing the drum of both washer and dryer, half load scenarios are more likely to be common.
The QuickIntense wash should blow most peoples socks away. If they didn't tinker much with that cycle, it should give A-class wash results to EU standards with loads up to about 10 pounds.
10 pounds would be equal to a loosely filled drum. The drum volume should be in the corner of 2.2-2.4cuft on the washer.



The prewash compartment has a permanently installed syphon for use with bleach.
Given that the bleaching option is supposed to add 10min of wash time, I am wondering if the normal Cotton cycles even have been altered much or if they still are the 2h monsters we over here have.

The Eco cycles of Mieles over here do limit their heating. PowerWash 2.0 however does somewhat offset the need for reduced heating temperatures across the board. But that technology does appear to not be implemented on the US versions.


Post# 977322 , Reply# 27   1/7/2018 at 13:55 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

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Post# 977334 , Reply# 28   1/7/2018 at 15:20 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
The European Miele ones only draw 1,100 watts

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Don't see how that would work in USA.

From THS gleaned the washer's heating power is 1050 watts. You can only pull 1800 from a 120v/60amp circuit and that is total which would leave about 750w for dryer.

This matters since Miele as usual markets the W&D as set meaning both in theory could be in operation at same time and circuit. Something therefore must give power wise and cannot see drawing full power (1800w) for the three or whatever hours it takes to complete cycles.

Of course once the washer heats water and thermostat is satisfied that should be it far as that power draw is concerned.


Post# 977336 , Reply# 29   1/7/2018 at 15:27 by henene4 (Germany)        
Heatpump usage

The power draw by the dryer should be activley regulated, with 1000W being worst case. Normal running power should be lower then that.

Post# 977345 , Reply# 30   1/7/2018 at 17:46 by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA)        

A glance at the installation instructions in the dryer manual shows that Miele will sell a connection adapter. It will convert a 4-prong dryer outlet into two regular 15 amp outlets.


Post# 977366 , Reply# 31   1/7/2018 at 19:53 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Which is what one meant

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Cannot see how two appliances pulling nearly 1000 watts each can go on same circuit to run at once. Something has to give some where.

Post# 977389 , Reply# 32   1/7/2018 at 21:15 by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

You need to remember that whilst an individual appliance is limited to roughly 1800 watts the circuit isnt necessarily the same. In AU we plug a 2400 watt washer and 2400 watt dryer into a circuit shared with the kitchen, dishwasher at 2300 watts that is 240v 20amps for a total of 4800 watts capacity. For years I ran a 1970s 3200watt Miele and 1990s 2400watt Miele and and 2000 watt iron and 2000 watt dryer on a 15amp 240v circuit at Michaels mums. As long as the elements were all cycling on and off at different times and intervals, it was never a problem.

A 120v 20amp circuit should be capable of supporting 2400watts over the entire circuit, that is less than both machines theoretically pull. Arent modern houses by code in the US required to have a dedicated 20amp circuit for the laundry? I realize the 80% loading rule, but none of these appliances continuously pull maximum wattage.

We regularly can pull over 6.5kw over a circuit rated for 4800watts. A breaker doesnt trip the second it hits the maximum capacity there is usually a delay that varies based on how big the overload is. With resistive heating The load will always cycle, so the washer wont pull maximum wattage for 30 minutes if its hot and cold fill.


Post# 977395 , Reply# 33   1/7/2018 at 21:42 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Yes love,

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But the Miele plugs for USA are 120v/15amp, which means much less power.

15 amp at 120v gives total of 1800 watts. While the same amps at 20 goes up to 2400 watts.

At least here you can plug a 15amp 120v plug into a 20amp socket, but not vice versa. If Miele is specifying a 15 amp power supply one assumes that is what people are going to move with.

Twenty amp circuits on 120v are normally used for air conditioners and refrigerators, in fact IIRC code may specify such. Think it is due to the amount of power such things draw and or at start-up. Such "dedicated" circuits however usually aren't supposed to have anything else going at same time.

One assumes all this palaver comes from Miele now being totally gun shy about deviating from the standard American 120v power supply found in a majority of American homes. Having tried for years to get Americans to come around to 120v/220v "dryer" plugs and seeing their sales not move much (for washing machines), they've given up that track mostly except for the professional/commercial lines.


Post# 977398 , Reply# 34   1/7/2018 at 21:53 by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Modern US circuits might have 15 amp plugs, but that doesnt mean the breaker is 15 amps. The modern US standard is 12 guage 20 amp, 120v. The laundry area should have at least one of these dedicated.

Our circuits are 20 amps but the outlets and plugs are each only 10.

Its the wire gauge that sets the circuit breaker size, not necessarily the outlet on the wall

If all circuits were only 15 amp then youd be pressed to plug two appliances in over 4 or 5 duplex outlets.

You should be able to plug the 15 amp washer and 15 amp dryer into a duplex outlet with 15 amp sockets that is wired on a 20amp circuit and have no issue at all. I grant you that both on a duplex outlet wired with 14guage and a 15 amp breaker you may be in trouble.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Brisnat81's LINK


Post# 977409 , Reply# 35   1/7/2018 at 23:16 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Yes, but that's assuming machines will go into

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a dedicated "laundry area". Ours has no such thing nor do many older or even relatively modern NYC apartments.

Yes, it is the fuse/circuit breaker that will determine total amps that can be drawn. Equally yes, it is possible a wall socket is wired to a 20 amp circuit even though it has a 15amp plug.


Post# 977414 , Reply# 36   1/7/2018 at 23:50 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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My laundry area has a dedicated 20 amp 120v outlet and a dedicated 30 amp 240 dryer circuit. If the converter is used, wouldn't that technically be two 30 amp 120v circuits that are limited by the built in fuses (15amp iirc) ?

Post# 977418 , Reply# 37   1/8/2018 at 00:05 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
From manual

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The dryer is equipped with a power
cord 6' 7" (2 m) with plug. The dryer is
connected to a NEMA 5-15 socket with
an electrical connection of 120 V,
60 Hz, 15 A.


If a NEMA 14-30 socket is
provided on-site for the dryer, the
Miele connection adapter* can be
used."

Observe the following description to
avoid damage to the dryer.


Tip: You can order the connection
adapter directly from Miele (USA or CDN).

The connection adapter has a NEMA
14-30 plug and two NEMA 5-15
socket-side connectors. The dryer
and washing machine can therefore
be connected to the 120 V / 60 Hz
electricity supply.


The connection adapter is equipped
with two 15 A fuses which protect
both the connected appliances and
the connection adapter.

Washer:

ELECTRICAL INSTRUCTIONS
This installation should be performed by
an experienced and qualified
technician, in accordance with local
codes and regulations.
The washing machine is supplied with a
5 3" (1.6 m) long, 3 wire cord, ending in
a NEMA 5-15P plug, ready for
connection to a 120 V, 15 A, 60 Hz, AC
power supply.
The proper outlet can be purchased
from an electrical supply dealer


Post# 977444 , Reply# 38   1/8/2018 at 08:40 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
With all that adapter carry on...

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Thank Heaven for our 240v, 13a ring main system. Less hassle all round.

Post# 977571 , Reply# 39   1/9/2018 at 03:56 by iej (Ireland)        

My laundry is just 20A 230V radial on a dedicated RCBO (combined breaker and GFCI) as per the current regs here.

The T1 draws typically about 700W in use although it's rated maximum 1.1kW

The W1 in the version here can draw up to 2.4kW during heating, so I assume the US version will just have a smaller and thus slower heater.

With any appliances rated for use with a 15 amp plug and socket there's an assumption that the socket can provide the rated power. If it can't, you really need to rewire.

If the two machines cab plug into a single dryer outlet using an adaptor they would make sense but, if you've only 15 amps possible on a single outlet there's no way you can run a washer and a dryer off it!

Also hot fill won't really help that much unless the tank is located right next to the washer as it will fill before it's drawn any hot water. That's been the main reason lower water consumption washers in Europe don't bother with hot fill anymore. All older machines here hooked to hot and cold.


Post# 977574 , Reply# 40   1/9/2018 at 04:14 by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi James,

The two TOL models here have always been hot and cold fill, and since the 3xxx series its easy to enable/ disable hot fill.

We have solar hot water so we have hot fill enabled, using the Mieles onboard diagnostics, starting with a water temp of 50c, it shows 38 after a fill to low wash level with nothing in the drum. If you have a full load of towels it will get up to about 45, by the time the load is saturated. Thats starting with a room temperature of 20c. This is allowing for the standing water in 10m of piping to flush.

That will make a difference to the heating time, you start talking about a temperature rise of 20-30c rather than 40-60.

Cheers

Nathan


Post# 977576 , Reply# 41   1/9/2018 at 04:26 by iej (Ireland)        

You can order Miele machines with hot and cold fill but oddly enough the entire range or machines at TOL and BOL.dropped hot fill in the 1990s and 2000s. Almost without exception washers older than that had hot and cold valves.

There's never been any issue with access to an abundant on demand supply of hot water water. Usually you've a hot tank indirectly heated by the central heating system and solar is actually obligatory in new build. So typically there's always 250 to 300L of hot water sitting there in modern homes.

The manufacturers seemed to take the idea that the pipe lag was rendering hot fill pointless with very low water usage machines and also that hot fill was difficult to mix down to correct temp as sometimes you could get full 60C+ hot water flowing in and typically they don't have sensors on the supply. To do it right you need a thermostatic mixer valve that would limit flow to what we the machine preset is. otherwise, you have to be very conservative about not dumping in a lot of tap hot water that could be more than the wash preset temp.

I think it was also likely an element of lowest common denominator standardisation of designs for many of the manufacturers (although at Miele prices it makes no sense). They just avoided an extra valve, plumbing and so on.

I know Miele dishwashers here can be connected to hot water only, which reduces energy use by about 50% (but you do need to factor in your hot water costs if it's not totally solar based,)

I would he surprised if Miele's US design makes much use of hot water hook up. It's largely been the German manufacturers who drove away from hot fill in Europe. The old British and Italian ones always used it in the past.

The big issue with solar heating here in Ireland is that it's only abundant for half the year. Because of the latitude and cloud cover it's only really effective in summer months. In winter, even with very large collectors adapted for low light, I can't get the tank beyond 30C with solar and often it doesn't really heat at all. In summer on a bright day you could nearly boil the tank if it wasn't related properly.

Out winter sunshine (direct sunshine) averages as little as 1 to 2 hr per day in winter and 50% of the year there's complete cloud cover. Its a very different climate to Australia or to most of the US. Lots of fluffy white cloud and lots of highly changeable sunlight levels. Also in winter due to the latitude (further north then Edmonton in Canada) the days are short. Sunset is at about 4:20pm and sunrise isnt until 8:30am in mid winter. Vs 4:50am and after 10pm in mid summer.

So typically, solar only here isn't viable at all. Theyre always combined with a hearing source like natural gas, lpg, oil, wood pellet or increasingly (little by little) heat pumps.





This post was last edited 01/09/2018 at 04:44
Post# 977577 , Reply# 42   1/9/2018 at 04:31 by henene4 (Germany)        
Just checked again

So, let's go through this step by step.

With a split 240V connection, there is no question the machines would be fine.

On 120V, you either have a 15A or a 20A breaker.
A 15A circut can support easily 1800W, a 20A circut 2400W.

We have to go from the same route that these would run on an independent circut that they have to their own or only share with minor other loads (light bulb or so).
That would only make sense as even American laundry appliances should load out a circut pretty significantly on their own.


Now, if we assume the dryer uses an A++ heatpump design copied from the EU, cycle times are far over 2h for a full load with less then 2kWh used, so the total continous load should be less the 1kW.

This means that with a 20A breaker you will be most definetly fine.

On a 15A circut, it might get tight.
If the dryer pulls 700W as normal running current, and the washer keeps itself to 1100W (which it should be abled to at 900-1000W heating power), we are ever so slightly clear, and as the washer should never heat for more then an hour, the 20% rule does not apply.


Further, I suppose that Miele could use some technologys to reduce peak current when for example the heatpump is starting up.
Electrolux (under the AEG brand) manages to sell dryers at peak usage of 700W here, mainly because they heavily rely to inverter technology to my knowledge. Starting a heatpump that is not controlled can spike the current a lot, same with a motor.
Inverters can start at low voltage/low amperage and slowly ramp up both to prevent that spikeing.

So I think it should be doable as long as they are alone on a circut. As soon as they share their circut (kitchen for example) there is basicly no chance of that.


Post# 977580 , Reply# 43   1/9/2018 at 04:51 by iej (Ireland)        

The one thing I think you can be sure of though is theyve designed these machines to work work a 15amp socket outlet. So unless youre using some very odd, very old, wiring it should be fine.

Also with most US houses its not all that difficult to pull new circuits through. Youve rarely got solid internal walls and youve often got laundries in basements with easy access to wiring. However, I suspect these machines will find themselves in a lot of high end apartments and smaller urban homes more than youre average machine does.

Theyre actually ideally suited to being used in places you cant easily connect a traditional US laundry setup and can definitely work in a laundry closet type setup (with some degree of ventilation as the dryer does need a source of room temperature air, even if its not producing very noticible amounts of heat, its still advisable not to keep it in any kind of airtight closet as youll reduce the efficiency to the heat pump)

Also bear in mind the dryer is an inductive load and the washer is primarily a resistive load. So youre really looking at the peak wattage on the dryer being an inrush to the heat pump motor, not a sustained heating load. The washers main load would be the heating element,

From what Ive seen of my T1 dryer it doesnt come anywhere near the max rated load other than for a few brief moments when the heat pump starts. If theyve smoothed that out to cope with the lower voltages in the US, then it will be very gentle on the breakers.

Also bear in mind the profile of breakers typically allows for a brief inrush.


Post# 977589 , Reply# 44   1/9/2018 at 06:55 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Which? To The Rescue

launderess's profile picture
Various cycles and options explained in plain English:
www.which.co.uk/reviews/w...


Post# 977612 , Reply# 45   1/9/2018 at 10:11 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
"Proofing"

rolls_rapide's profile picture
@Reply #44 (Launderess's Which? link):

"The proofing agent can be used on all sorts of items. Miele claims it works especially well on tablecloths so that if your guest spills their wine, it will simply bead and roll off the material."

No doubt you'll get some who'll try to proof their underwear.


Post# 977651 , Reply# 46   1/9/2018 at 14:56 by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)        

I just wish Miele had kept their classic styling. The W3922/W3923 especially just looked 'right'. These new machines look like they could be BSH or AEG-Electrolux...

Post# 977664 , Reply# 47   1/9/2018 at 16:20 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        

Most USA appliances are expecting you to provide them hot water. Dishwashers expect 120F water, and some washer manufacturers suggest that too. Giving appliances cold water is an exception because the heaters are not powerful enough to get cold water of say 38-40F up to temperature adequately without causing excessively long cycles and more energy used in the appliance than is allowed.

Miele is about the only appliance I know that will allow a cold fill in a dishwasher or washer.



Post# 977671 , Reply# 48   1/9/2018 at 16:42 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Whirlpool's new compacts only have a connection for cold water. Here's one of them:

www.whirlpool.com/laundry...


Post# 977694 , Reply# 49   1/9/2018 at 22:15 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
VERY NICE!

If only I had the money...

Post# 977704 , Reply# 50   1/10/2018 at 00:49 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Cold Fill Dishwasher

launderess's profile picture
Have always wondered how that works. I mean if dishes are hot from first wash, then hitting them with cold water (until it reached desired heated temperature) is a sure way to cause damage.

Cold fill washing machines:

My AEG OKO-Lavamat is cold fill and if am being honest not totally a fan.

I mean if one has plenty of hot water (which I do), can save some time and bother by either pre-soaking or doing a quick pre-wash in cold, then filling with hot and let the machine "boost" temp up to 140F to 200F.


Post# 977711 , Reply# 51   1/10/2018 at 02:16 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Cold fill dishwashers are the norm here in Europe. I never had problems with damage what so ever. The machine is hot after the wash, when the cold water enters it will at least get luke warm before the dishwasher starts spraying.

Post# 977713 , Reply# 52   1/10/2018 at 03:21 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Vintage European DWs that used larger water volumes usually had a cool down at the end of the main wash to prevent thermal shock.
Modern water stingy machines seem to work very well the way Louis describes.
The BSH group might be an exception favouring heat exchangers, zeolit thechnology and who knows what else.




This post was last edited 01/10/2018 at 03:56
Post# 977749 , Reply# 53   1/10/2018 at 10:00 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Cold fill dishwashers

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Bosch use the heat exchanger system. The downside is that should you move house, you have to 'empty' the extra tank, else the water spills out when you tilt the machine to carry it. The instructions for doing so still leaves a substantial amount in the system. Not entirely satisfactory.

When Which? tested dishwashers back in the Sixties, they discovered that cold fill worked a bit better than hot fill. The idea being that cold water assisted in removing the soil from the dishes, whereas hot water helped to bake it on.

These days it's probably a moot point, what with the efficient enzymes in modern detergents, and the time it takes to get hot water from a combi-boiler feed - the 'hot' water will likely still be cool entering the machine. It is in my case - I have the Bosch dishwasher linked to the spare (unused) washing machine hot tap, under the sink. The Panasonic washing machine is cold fill only, so only has one fill hose.


Post# 977776 , Reply# 54   1/10/2018 at 16:43 by jerrod6 (United States of America)        

The top line of Miele's new DW here in the USA use a cold fill with a heat exchanger. If I am not mistaken it uses less electric than using a hot fill if you are using electric to heat your water. Of course the times are longer, about 30 minutes. Miele tested using an incoming water temp of 50F.

Post# 977798 , Reply# 55   1/10/2018 at 19:09 by iej (Ireland)        

You can connect Miele dishwashers to cold or hot fill. It's just a matter of changing a menu option on ours.

I know someone who had an old Bosch dishwasher on hot fill (probably at >60C) for about 20 years. She replaced it was a pretty bargain-basement Bosch machine very much lower quality than the one it replaced and the hot fill was connected in error and caused damage to the machine.




Post# 977821 , Reply# 56   1/10/2018 at 21:35 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
No empty refilable TwinDos Containers

launderess's profile picture
It seems for the USA versions of W1 washing machines. So other than using Miele's offerings that seems to be that apparently. Thus also no swapping the second container from that bleach to say fabric softener or any other additive.

If this is true and there truly aren't any other options using that Miele TwinDos system is likely going to become very dear. Those containers aren't exactly cheap and certainly will be less so after MieleUSA adds on the various costs incurred from important to these shores.

Wonder if the option is still buried in the programming and thus one could simply have the empty container kits sent from Europe.


Post# 977829 , Reply# 57   1/10/2018 at 23:19 by henene4 (Germany)        
No empty cartridges?

Where did you get that info from?

Over here I think you get a coupon with the machine and have to order them from Miele.


Post# 977831 , Reply# 58   1/10/2018 at 23:33 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
From Ths

launderess's profile picture
Post# 977832 , Reply# 59   1/10/2018 at 23:38 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Also from the owner's manual

launderess's profile picture
It does not seem possible to change the detergent "options" for the TwinDos settings. One can increase or decrease amounts dispensed. Select whether one is washing whites or colours, but that is far as things seem to go.

Furthermore while previous WI models sold in Asia and Europe give options for dispensing fabric softener or starch "automatically" via the TwinDos system, no such directions are found for American version. Such products can only be dispensed via the fabric softener compartment in detergent drawer.

From manual:

Settings
86
Language @
The display can be set to appear in
one of several different languages.
The flag @ after the word Language acts
as a guide in case a language which is
not understood is set.
The language selected is saved to
memory.
TwinDos
You can set the dispensing quantities
and check the level of the detergent
cartridges from UltraPhase 1 and
UltraPhase 2.
Change dosage
The set values for dispensing
UltraPhase 1 and UltraPhase 2
detergent can be checked and
corrected.
Check level
The level is displayed with a bar chart.
The display only works correctly when
the following conditions are met:
1. New (full) cartridges are used.
2. The cartridges must not be removed
from the washing machine in the
interim period.
Tip: The level can be corrected via the
Miele@mobile app.
Select detergent
The detergent selected cannot be
changed.
Degree of soiling
Allows selection of default setting for
level of soiling.
The levels of soiling are light, normal,
and heavy.
The default setting is normal.
Buzzer volume
The buzzer sounds to let you know the
program has finished. The buzzer can
be set to be louder or quieter.
Options
V Off
V r r r r r r (quiet)
V (loud) (default setting)
Keypad tone
Each touch of a sensor button is
confirmed with an audible tone.
Options
V Off
V r r r r r r (quiet)
V r r r (default setting)
V (loud)

One wonders if the USA washers will come pre loaded with Miele UltraPhase products and that coupon good for a generous resupply. Otherwise cannot see many bothering even after their initial "free" (if offered) supply runs out.




This post was last edited 01/10/2018 at 23:54
Post# 977833 , Reply# 60   1/10/2018 at 23:41 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Finally

launderess's profile picture
No where in the manual does it mention using empty/refillable containers with the TwinDos system.

One either uses Miele TwinDos detergents as dispensed, the caps or go with one's own choice of whatever. The last are simply placed into the detergent drawer dispenser as common practice.

This is what one is on about: www.miele.co.uk/domestic/...

www.gumtree.com/p/washing-machin...


To be fair it does seem many had issues using those refillable canisters, so maybe they aren't long for the world in Europe either.



Post# 977883 , Reply# 61   1/11/2018 at 10:34 by iej (Ireland)        
@henene4

Mine came with a year's supply of Ultra Phase 1 and 2 and also two refillable cartridges.

I've yet to try it with my own detergent combinations as I find the Ultra Phase detergents pretty good and I don't really want to try something gloopy in the dosing pump.

Ultra Phase liquid in the cartridges is about as thick as a runny fabric softener, whereas most of the liquids on sale here are a lot less free-running.

Has anyone had experience of using it with 3rd party detergent ?

In some ways, it would make more sense for me to have the machine dispensing detergent and softener and just add a scoop of wash boosting peroxide based bleach for whites.


Post# 977888 , Reply# 62   1/11/2018 at 11:04 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Maybe Miele should investigate a 3-cartridge system? One with Ultraphase 1 + 2 + Fabric Conditioner?

Post# 977936 , Reply# 63   1/11/2018 at 22:42 by mielerod69 (Australia)        
refillable containers

mielerod69's profile picture
I have used Ariel colour liquid detergent as well as Persil color in the refillable containers. Both detergents worked fine. The Persil color is runnier than Ariel. The second cartridge I have used different types of fabric softener and they have all work ed.

BTW, Miele Germany have released a model similar to the ones that are going to be released in the US. The control panel is similar.


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Post# 977985 , Reply# 64   1/12/2018 at 09:55 by marky_mark (Sitges, Barcelona)        
Electrical Connection

marky_mark's profile picture

Regarding the electrical hookup, I would agree with jkbff's post (reply 36).  As the Miele adapter has two fuses, I would assume it would split the two legs of the 240-V 30-Amp multiwire branch circuit into two separate 120 Volt 15 Amp circuits each on opposing phases typically having two breakers with a common trip tie so that if one trips, they both trip.  This way, both the washer and the dryer can be run simultaneously with no problems as they would effectively both be on separate circuits but with a shared neutral.  If only one of the adapter's outlets is being used, the current will run via the neutral and one of the live wires (or grounded and ungrounded conductors, as the NEC likes to refer to them as).  If they are both in use, then the current will run between the two live legs up to the point at which the two loads balance, with the remainder flowing via the neutral.  That would be my guess regarding the adapter. 


Post# 978026 , Reply# 65   1/12/2018 at 18:34 by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        
Pictures

launderess's profile picture
Someone over on THS (see link above) took pictures of the new Miele washers and dryers from KBS 2018 show. Overall units appear to be rather nice.

Another poster to same thread confrimed Miele won't be selling the "empty" refillable canisters, and work arounds aren't possible because of programming.

With TwinDos even when "colors" is selected a small amount of the oxygen bleach is dispensed. So if that canister has something else in it; that is what one will get in the wash.

Thus far it seems as if Miele has removed such programming from units to be sold in North America. However once units arrive am sure sooner or later an owner is going to post about attempts to *hack* or otherwise play with programming. Then we shall see shan't we?


Post# 978034 , Reply# 66   1/12/2018 at 19:12 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        
Mostly H2O2

aamassther's profile picture

Here's a link to the Phase 2 ingredients list from the UK site. It's mostly H2O2 with some OBA's and surfactants thrown in.

www.miele.co.uk/pmedia/ZG...

 

Here are the Phase 1 ingredients:

 

www.miele.co.uk/pmedia/ZG...

 

It's certainly an enzyme heavy mix!

 


Post# 978084 , Reply# 67   1/13/2018 at 08:04 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
In Germany there are plenty of dirt cheap alternatives to UltraPhase 1.

Obviously made by Dalli Werke, 6 Enzymes, very high surfactants content but still low in viscosity (free running)





CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK


Post# 978085 , Reply# 68   1/13/2018 at 08:05 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Post# 978087 , Reply# 69   1/13/2018 at 08:14 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Reply #66

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I know that other folk have mentioned that test labs reported that powders cleaned better in the Miele, than Miele's own Twindos Ultraphase detergents. Perhaps that is because of a few possible reasons:

a) the powder is more abrasive;
b) the powder contains a bleach activator, TAED;
c) the powder has a better range of builders and chelating agents;
d) powders are, by their nature, dried concentrates.

Liquids on the other hand contain water - possibly a greater ratio of water in the Miele concoctions, as others have reported that the Miele formulations seem quite fluid in comparison to the likes of P&G's and Unilever's viscous liquids. Or maybe Miele purposely left out a thickener.


Post# 978259 , Reply# 70   1/14/2018 at 08:26 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Miele`s UltraPhase 1 seems to be even a little more concentrated than Miele`s "standard" UltraColor liquid or Dalli`s DM discounter detergent both of them list 15-30% anionic and 5-15% nonionic surfactants which is a decent amount when dosed at 66 ml (Miele) or 75 ml (DM) for a standart load.
UltraPhase 1 gets you 37 loads at 1,5 l, so it`s only 41 ml per load. Unfortunately can not find anything about surfactants percentage in this one.

At risk of repeating myself, viscosity has nothing to do with a detergent`s concentration. Anything concerning viscosity can be modified like adding thickeners to make consumers believe to get more for their money or like adding more solvents to avoid gelling e.g. if you wanted a product to be easily flushed in over the detergent drawer or by a pump.

It`s not surprising that a good powder can outperform (cleaningwise) the UltraPhase system.
Enzyme containing liquids are pH wise generally way less caustic than most powders and a mild liquid H2O2 solution can not compare to a powerful NOBS or TAED activated dry bleaching system.
We simply cannot have both at once, the gentleness of liquids and the power of powders. Besides powders wouldn`t do so well in an automatic dosing system.






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