Thread Number: 74170
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
New Tariffs On Washing Machines |
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Post# 979514 , Reply# 1   1/22/2018 at 21:54 (2,279 days old) by speedqueen (Metro-Detroit)   |   | |
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Post# 979529 , Reply# 3   1/23/2018 at 01:30 (2,279 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)   |   | |
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I feel the opposite, at this point I will not buy another WP product. They have skated for years, no innovations, just the same old same old. They don't want to compete just block the competition. I see that as pretty un-American. |
Post# 979537 , Reply# 4   1/23/2018 at 04:03 (2,279 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 979553 , Reply# 6   1/23/2018 at 09:01 (2,278 days old) by verizonbear (Glen Burnie )   |   | |
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Here's what I am thinking
1. Prices will go up do to lack of competition (maybe ) 2. LG and Samsung will build factories in the US to circumvent the tariff 3. R&D research will stall in the US ( without competition no reason to differentiate your product. 4. Frigidaire /Electrolux, Haier/GE and Bosch will profit from this because they have factories in the US already. |
Post# 979567 , Reply# 8   1/23/2018 at 10:59 (2,278 days old) by Dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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Washing machine and solar tariffs are another plan that wasn't well thought out and will have unintended consequences. Creating a trade war isn't productive and other countries may add tariffs on U.S. goods.
R&D will stall without competition as stated above and if solar is more expensive fewer people will install it. There's a lot of labor in solar installation so less work for Americans. A thorough evaluation of department of energy standards allowing washing machines and dishwashers to work better could be more productive. Or focusing on the rollout of solar farms which can be more efficient than rooftop solar and would create vs eliminated jobs. This post was last edited 01/23/2018 at 12:27 |
Post# 979599 , Reply# 11   1/23/2018 at 16:59 (2,278 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 979600 , Reply# 12   1/23/2018 at 17:25 (2,278 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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I'm mixed on this whole thing.
WP certainly is fighting headwinds from overseas machine dumping, and rising material costs. Labor costs are really not a huge factor, no matter how much companies want to cry about it; it's their favorite scapegoat. Employee insurance is the bigger albatross....alas that's for another discussion. I think this tariff will help in the short run. Appliances are historically cheap as hell. If we equated their prices to 1970s or 80s value, they'd be double price. They were a major investment back in the day. Not much longer. (Arguably their quality matches this) In the long run however, SS and LG will be back with vengeance with domestic production. Likely with dirt cheap Southern labor too. As well as heavy subsidies from their home country, so they'll just be "dumping" machines again domestically, skirting the tariffs. I agree there's a bit of a risk that it will lift the pressures to compete on WP, but that's really no guarantee. And to say they've not innovated in decades is a pretty short-sighted comment. In fact, if this community were to rabidly support anything, it would be AGAINST innovation. Innovation is what led WP from abandoning the belt drive and direct drive platforms. Innovation led to the VMW platform, regardless of how much people here hate it. It was engineering and development through and through. For a company like WP to invent the VMW platform, there was a need for teams of dozens of people in engineering, marketing, manufacturing, sourcing etc. It's not child's play to design a machine that lives in peoples' homes, spinning wet, heavy clothing at hundreds or thousands of rpms, year in and out. Doing it safely. In addition to that! It was also market forces and self inflicted financial forces (everything is short term stock gain now) that also drive many of these changes. Those cast metal transmissions, and stamped frames, and thick steel drums are very expensive with the rise of material costs. It's labor intensive and environmentally taxing to enamel coat all those drums. The investors are constantly pressuring companies to cut costs, while still maintaining performance. It's a challenging balancing act. It was WP innovation that further re-popularized front loaders in the USA after the Neptune rise and fall, with the Duet series. Everyone else followed the Duet. Again, whether you love it or hate it, the Duet is a remarkable, reliable platform for a front load machine at it's price point. First made in Germany and Mexico, and now in Ohio for several years. That also takes remarkable engineering for years of dependable service. From bearings, belts, baskets, motors....and what many people forget, the follies of shipping these things across nations and oceans. Those trips are insanely tough on products. The hell our smoke alarms have to be tested through, just so they survive shipping, are responsible for adding weeks to our development timeline. I can't imagine what it adds to a washing machine or dryer. In fact, there was an article I read years ago (wish I could find it) that described the engineering feats and failures and later successes, of bolstering the integrity of the pulley flywheel on the Neptunes, because they were prone to warping in extremely hot shipping conditions with the belt tension. Months of design and materials experimentation went into the final product. JUST so the pulley survives a semi-truck in an Arizona summer drive. Then there's the issue of harmonics. Spinning and vibrating at those speeds; something must be done to cancel out or ramp quickly past the harmonic resonant frequencies of the appliance, in order to shake itself to pieces. As well as not send all that vibration into your house, at risk of ruining floors, or WORSE, finding the resonant frequency of your laundry room! And every platform is different. So every new design they come out with, all that work needs to be RE-done. Against droning on, is WP perfect? No way. There are legit complaints about some of the products over the years. But they have gotten vastly better. Much to the scorn of my fine cohorts at AW, there are hundreds of thousands of users out there very happy with their wash plate Bravos' and Cabrios. Granted some have premature issues, and some people hate them. But the design mostly works as intended. I have nagging spin issues on my Maytag Maxima. Something is a little off, but I'm also on a 2nd floor of questionable construction. If you're going to be Nationalistic about American design and manufacturing, like I used to be. Then you're almost obligated to support WP. And to a lesser extent, GE/Haier KY or Electrolux US. And maybe down the road, LG or Samsung when they open their US plants. But if lowest price and most features regardless of source is your preference? Then this tariff is a raw deal. |
Post# 979601 , Reply# 13   1/23/2018 at 17:27 (2,278 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 979606 , Reply# 15   1/23/2018 at 17:58 (2,278 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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How much y'all wanna bet not one new 'muriKKKan job comes of this? Prices rise but no new jobs. Why, yes, those were my self-same objections to those around here screaming that Maytag must not be bought by the Chinese (who promised to keep the factory in place and the employees there, working) but must go to Whirlpool. Which did exactly what to the workers? Oh, right, they closed their factory and fired them.
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Post# 979609 , Reply# 16   1/23/2018 at 18:09 (2,278 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Post# 979625 , Reply# 17   1/23/2018 at 20:31 (2,278 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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If you mean machines that last less then there predecessors and have a shorter warranty, then I can understand why people would be rabidly resistant to innovation.
Yes I do agree with you that designing anything requires teams of people and lots of time to test and re-test, but the VMW is not anything new. Its design was already in existence 30 years before Whirlpool adopted it their World Washers. The duets are heavily based on European design not their own, and the DW that Whirlpool is building now are again based on European technology decades earlier. Do they add their own twist? Sure and of course. But I hate to say it, Whirlpool hasn't innovated as much as you would like us to believe especially after their DDs. What was original however was the wig-wag design, as well as most other toploaders like GE, Frigidaire, and Maytag up to the DD design which is like no other anywhere on earth. As was the powerclean module, GE 1200, Whirlpool top filter dryer- all original and unique designs that outperform foreign products in many, many ways. Sadly the last 25 years has not been R&D or bettering the industry. Its been cheapening once great products to the point of short lived disasters while making cheesy euro clones that would be A LOT better if they were literally the real thing, ie just ship over the same carbon copy used in mainland Europe. Heck we have 20PSIG water, drain lines and 240 volts in our panels- I can improvise. What Whirlpool needs is an original thought and an original idea. Only then can we outdo the world. |
Post# 979631 , Reply# 18   1/23/2018 at 20:58 (2,278 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Estimates of job losses in the solar installation trade. Maybe they can line up for 200 jobs at Whirlpool? (they'll be fighting for a place in that line with those recently laid off at Carrier)
However, solar installers and manufacturers of other equipment used to run solar-power systems opposed tariffs, which they said will raise their prices and hurt demand for the renewable energy. The Solar Energy Industries Association, which represents installation companies, said billions of dollars of solar investment will be delayed or canceled, leading to the loss of 23,000 jobs this year. Mark Bortman, founder of Exact Solar in Philadelphia, said the prospect of tariffs, since the trade commission recommended them in October, had already caused him to delay hiring and expansion plans. “Solar is really just starting to take off because it is truly a win-win-win situation” for consumers, workers and the environment, he said. “Tariffs would really be shooting ourselves in the foot.” CLICK HERE TO GO TO gansky1's LINK |
Post# 979641 , Reply# 19   1/23/2018 at 21:59 (2,278 days old) by Dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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The first big discussion for 2018 was the department of energy standard effect on Speed Queen with new top loaders that may or may not clean clothes and delayed roll out of consumer front loaders that may or may not exist for 2018. Whirlpool, Maytag and Whirpools various other sub brands dominate the market but tbis this would be an ideal time for Speed Queen consumer units to gain market share. Except that energy standards forced their redesign. You could argue that the 2017 era Speed Queen models were great machines with a premium price that terrifs would have made more competitive. And I've heard there may be some Factory space available in Newton Iowa if they need it...
I still think the tariffs are misguided and will cost jobs in solar and trade disputes we don't need. You can still get one of these for a while LFN50RSP115TW01 www.pwslaundrywest.com/i-... Or www.dexter.com/vended-laundry/ven... |
Post# 979655 , Reply# 20   1/24/2018 at 03:59 (2,278 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 979702 , Reply# 21   1/24/2018 at 11:01 (2,277 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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"If you mean machines that last less then there predecessors and have a shorter warranty, then I can understand why people would be rabidly resistant to innovation."
I was not addressing those issues in detail Chet. Those could be summarized by my comments saying that WP still has issues in other areas. And so does the industry as a whole. Not too long ago, appliances had tiered warranties where racks and PCBs and drive components would be covered with addition 3-5yr warranties. But now, except for MT's skimpy 10yr warranties on silly parts that never break, and except for SQ's longer warranties, the WHOLE industry only now offers paltry 1yr warranties on everything. I'm not holding my breath, but I wonder if this extra domestic breathing room from the tariffs will inspire the companies to put some quality and warranties back in? Oh, and just because a concept existed 30 years prior, doesn't mean it cannot be innovated upon. The cell phone existed before the iphone. But Apple truly made the Smart Phone market that everyone eventually got into. And yes, I'm ignoring Blackberry, because if they were so great, they would've dominated first. And they didn't. Just because the VMW idea was already around, doesn't mean it wasn't further innovated upon and then successfully commercialized by WP. |
Post# 979727 , Reply# 22   1/24/2018 at 14:29 (2,277 days old) by Dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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Automobile production while different from appliance production has some parallels. Honda, Toyota, BMW and others opened non-union US based factories for a variety of reasons. Not sure about Whirlpool but I think Speed Queen has union jobs. And you can bet that LG and Samsung won't be opening union factories.
The Auto industry does have some key differences like the Legacy cost of healthcare and a lot of other things I'm not getting into here. |
Post# 979740 , Reply# 23   1/24/2018 at 16:19 (2,277 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Does the new SQ top-loader really use substantially less energy than the 2017 line? It certainly doesn't seem to use less water. Did extracting all those internal organs make a big difference in the amount of electricity it uses? Would be interesting to test both models in a real-world situation to find out the difference.
Got a kick out of the PWS Laundry ad in Reply #19. Check out the shipping information. |
Post# 979766 , Reply# 24   1/24/2018 at 17:58 (2,277 days old) by Dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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Some PWS products only ship to California likely a result of Alliance assigning certain dealers certain territories. As a California it is very odd to see something restricted to sales here versus banned here. There's a long list of pesticides and chemicals and other things we can't get in California but this has more to with dealer regions.
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Post# 979787 , Reply# 25   1/24/2018 at 20:02 (2,277 days old) by Blackstone (Springfield, Massachusetts)   |   | |
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Excerpt:
The tariffs were imposed not because of unfair trade practices by other countries, which is normally the case, but because U.S. manufacturers said they were being hurt by foreign competition. “This is an unusual trade law, rarely used,” says George Slover, senior policy counsel at Consumers Union, the policy and mobilization division of Consumer Reports. "It allows a challenge to imports based solely on the imported product making it too hard on the U.S. manufacturer. No unfair trade practice or other wrongful conduct needs to be alleged or shown." Read the entire article: CLICK HERE TO GO TO Blackstone's LINK |
Post# 979850 , Reply# 27   1/25/2018 at 06:55 (2,277 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 979858 , Reply# 29   1/25/2018 at 08:15 (2,276 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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Post# 979932 , Reply# 30   1/25/2018 at 19:36 (2,276 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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What has this come to? The only difference between the Whirlpool and Maytag washer is the nameplate! |
Post# 979933 , Reply# 31   1/25/2018 at 19:38 (2,276 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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What has this come to? The only difference between the Whirlpool and Maytag washer is the nameplate!What has this come to? The only difference between Whirlpool and Maytag is the name! That's it! |
Post# 979941 , Reply# 33   1/25/2018 at 20:44 (2,276 days old) by enduring (Iowa)   |   | |
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How did I get this post on this thread!? I had intended to start my own thread. Sorry. |
Post# 980016 , Reply# 36   1/26/2018 at 14:28 (2,275 days old) by Kindalazy (toronto)   |   | |
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I’m SO glad I live in Canada, and not just because of this tariff... |
Post# 980184 , Reply# 40   1/28/2018 at 02:26 (2,274 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 980239 , Reply# 42   1/28/2018 at 11:45 (2,273 days old) by washman (o)   |   | |
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According to Rush Limberger and Faux News, unions are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. |
Post# 980250 , Reply# 43   1/28/2018 at 12:50 (2,273 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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that's not supposed to be the fake news channel, is it? |
Post# 980259 , Reply# 44   1/28/2018 at 14:27 (2,273 days old) by washman (o)   |   | |
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all the news today seems to be fake in some form or fashion. |
Post# 980615 , Reply# 47   1/30/2018 at 16:07 (2,271 days old) by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)   |   | |
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I wonder if President Trump is going to say anything about the new tariffs in his speech State of the Union address. Anyone planning on watching it? |
Post# 980626 , Reply# 48   1/30/2018 at 18:20 (2,271 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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too conceited. Stormy Daniels is going to be on Jimmy Kimmel tonight. |
Post# 980956 , Reply# 52   2/2/2018 at 09:14 (2,268 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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announced their new Clarksville Tn. plant before this tariff was announced. |