Thread Number: 74397  /  Tag: Modern Dryers
Drying times? washer-dryer combo
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Post# 981981   2/9/2018 at 00:57 (190 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Guys a question for you, related to other model.

Washer-dryer combo.
9kg capacity wash
4kg capacity dry

Concept: Washer dryer combo made thinking about people that live in apartments that have no vent and no dryer hookups. It runs on whatever ordinary 110V power outlet without overloading circuits.

Max power: 1450W drying
Bell and Whistle: Removable drum that can be used as a dirty laundry basket, almost like the british Titan.
Electronic controls but analogic interface (dials only)
Slant front

Cons (and the question)

1.5 to 2 hours to dry a load. (dry condenser with a 10% vent)

10% of the air is vented but there is no venting ducts. It's a minimal and unnoticeable moisture coming through a gap on the door to the room where the dryer is.

It's not enough to heat up a small room in the summer and even in a confined space during the winter, it's impossible to see condensation on the walls.

Linting: Some lint is expelled during the drying cycle. It is unnoticed in a couple of cycles. But if you run several cycles without cleaning the room, then you can see some dust landing on furniture in the room.

Would that be a problem here in the US?
1) drying time?
2) moisture?
3) dust?


Notes to remember. It's a low end model, made to be affordable and cheap, an alternative for people that simply can't afford a washer and a dryer or simply don't have space or hookups for a full size pair and also can't afford a high end super capacity LG washer dryer and at the same time wants something better than the chinese ones (Magic chef, for example)

Average retail price between $500 and $600

is it worth to continue with the idea?





Post# 981989 , Reply# 1   2/9/2018 at 05:20 (190 days old) by retro-man (nashua,nh)        

Drying time and a small amount of moisture would not be an issue, but the dust lint problem would make me avoid said purchase. I do not want to have to clean up after a washer and dryer.

Jon


Post# 982103 , Reply# 2   2/9/2018 at 23:42 (189 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

I'm very allergic to dryer lint as in it makes my throat close and nonstop coughing and hacking...pass.


Post# 982114 , Reply# 3   2/10/2018 at 01:38 (189 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Retro-man and askolover

Even being minimal amounts?

I mean, it's not "one load will fill the room with lint everywhere" or "all the lint generated will be expelled in the room"

It would need something like 20 or 30 loads (towels) to start to notice the first dust (almost nothing) and something near 80 loads to say "well, it's time to clean the furniture."

and 80 loads... well, even without a dryer at all, the time a normal household would run 80 loads is time enough to collect normal household dust everywhere.

Does this make any sense or i smoked that stinky green thing that is now legal in California?


Post# 982123 , Reply# 4   2/10/2018 at 04:10 (189 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

I see what you're saying Thomas, but for me, the last thing I would want is something else to add MORE dust.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a market for that type of dryer.  It sounds neat on paper.


Post# 982126 , Reply# 5   2/10/2018 at 05:42 (189 days old) by retro-man (nashua,nh)        

Well if the amount is like you said then that would not be that bad. Would take it under consideration if this was the case. Would be interesting to see the unit.

Jon


Post# 982301 , Reply# 6   2/11/2018 at 11:26 (188 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

When the Whirlpool 24" dryer is such a well-designed efficient and well built machine that can be placed anywhere, even out on a balcony, can operate on 120 or 240 or gas, a washer only is a better choice. Another thing with the compact combos is that because of poor design, water does not flush the blower during each fill like the first Duomatic did and many following brands' combos did, so the fins of the fan clog with lint, ruining performance. Water extraction is compromised by the need to have the load release from the drum when drying starts or, alternately, do like some combos tested by Which in the 70s where the machines did not advance automatically from the wash to the dry by means of having to set a separate timer to start the dry cycle AFTER pulling the load from the sides of the drum. Dreams are wonderful for inspiration but they cannot overcome the principles of physics; that requires engineering and dreams are not engineering and until there are engineering breakthroughs combos, even the most expensive ones build today are poor substitutes for separate machines.

Post# 982392 , Reply# 7   2/11/2018 at 20:40 (187 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

Random thoughts not in order of importance:

1) Machine should have the ability to dry the full 9kg if the user doesn't care about wrinkles or drying time. I'm thinking of a person fills the machine to wash and has full intention of taking out half for drying cycle but is interrupted and can't get back to washer until hours later.

2) Safety features allow machine to be left unattended for duration of cycle.

3) Easy-to-clean filter on the 10% exhaust vent. Person doesn't need to deal with dust if willing to be extra diligent about filter cleaning.

4) Adjustable discharge flow rate for buildings that "can't handle" a washer. E.g. can be set to less than a shower or a sink full of water draining.

5) Adjustable limit for how much water is in machine at any one time Eg. less than average dishwasher. Why so building managers and co-op boards don;t freak about potential flooding. Obviously, a lower water limit means more water changes.

6) An internal flood pan.

Point: A lot of people would be happy to accept very long wash/dry times in exchange for having a 'set it and forget it' washer/dryer that would let them avoid leaving their apartment to do laundry.
-------------

Another idea: A self-contained 110v condenser dryer that didn't require hook-ups. Maybe a reservoir filled with ice water for each use and an internal drainage/condensate tank, both filled/emptied manually.

I'm sure I've failed to explain adequately. Ask away.

Jim


Post# 982428 , Reply# 8   2/12/2018 at 02:00 (187 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        

If I can add something why not try using a heatpump condensor so that the condensor can be cooled by the waste product in the cycle of the heatpump thereby reducing the amount of water that is used to cool the condensor.

Or would it be cost prohibtive?

Regards


Post# 982434 , Reply# 9   2/12/2018 at 02:49 (187 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
10% vent does not only mean some dust blown into the living space, but also humidity. That is ok in a dry climate, but in a humid climate that would be a big no. Overhere condenser dryers are tested on how well sealed they are, a 10% vent would score absolutely bad on that aspect. Place such a machine in a small bathroom and your mirrors will fog up.

Also humidity and lint blown into the living space is a reason not to buy such a machine for people with asthma or other breathing problems.


Post# 982560 , Reply# 10   2/13/2018 at 00:06 (186 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        
Warmsecondrinse

1) Machine should have the ability to dry the full 9kg if the user doesn't care about wrinkles or drying time. I'm thinking of a person fills the machine to wash and has full intention of taking out half for drying cycle but is interrupted and can't get back to washer until hours later.

Re: It can! It will take forever to dry but it will dry. and the clothes will be super wrinkled.

2) Safety features allow machine to be left unattended for duration of cycle.

Re: Of course it can be left unattended, although not recomended, otherwise we wouldn't even get the UL certification.

3) Easy-to-clean filter on the 10% exhaust vent. Person doesn't need to deal with dust if willing to be extra diligent about filter cleaning.
RE: Impossible.

4) Adjustable discharge flow rate for buildings that "can't handle" a washer. E.g. can be set to less than a shower or a sink full of water draining.

RE: It's not adjustable, but it has a slow pump and the pauses. (I already used a similar concept on SCAW2GEN.

5) Adjustable limit for how much water is in machine at any one time Eg. less than average dishwasher. Why so building managers and co-op boards don;t freak about potential flooding. Obviously, a lower water limit means more water changes.
RE: Impossible. The washer is probably the only front load in the world that has 3 water levels and I'm working hard to make all The Laundry Alternative washers "water hogs" according to the Eco Nazi standards. At maximum level you can see the water sloshing against the door almost like a vintage Westinghouse.

6) An internal flood pan.

Impossible, It would add cost to the product and we want to keep it as affordable as possible. This is not a high end model.


Post# 982561 , Reply# 11   2/13/2018 at 00:07 (186 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        
Foraloysius

I tested it in the climate chamber. The humidity expelled to the ambient is minimal and unnoticed. If you place it in a closed bathroom it is not enough to fog the mirrors.

Post# 982562 , Reply# 12   2/13/2018 at 00:11 (186 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        
Mieleforever

The drying system doesn't use a total condenser (it has a dry condenser that doesn't use water to cool down)
Using aheat pump technology is unthinkable for this model because of cost. We want it to be affordable (low end) to compete with chinese models.

We're fighting hard and burning neurones to keep the price low and at the same time add much more features, larger capacity and better performance than, for example, Magic Chef and Equator.


Post# 982563 , Reply# 13   2/13/2018 at 00:14 (186 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        
Foraloysius

Moisture doesn't blow that much (as well as lint) because of the condensing system.

And the lint is washed away on the next wash cycle.

The blower is also washed every time the washer fills and it spins dry on the first seconds of the drying.


Post# 982565 , Reply# 14   2/13/2018 at 00:29 (186 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        
Tomturbomatic

The load releases completely from the drum in aprox. 30 seconds after the spin (fluff) and before the drying cycle begins.

The fluff cycle (1 minute) agitates and brakes, reversing very fast with random amplitudes. It's virtually impossible for something to get stuck in the drum. an even if it gets stuck, it will fall and fluff in no more than 1 minute after the drying begins.
Our other "secret" with this model is a strong airflow.

Other feature I forgot to mention:

The rinses are REALLY DEEP. Three rinses (option to 4 on all cycles if allergic rinse is selected) and the first and second rinses the water reaches almost 50% of the door.

The door has a quick access hatch, so one can add a garment after the cycle starts, without draining the washer. When you open the hatch it pauses automatically.

As the drum is removable, the user can easily wipe the tub. It's impossible to have mold issues, even if you keep the door completelly shut.

Among the "liability safety" features, the door latch requires to be activated to close the door. You can't simply push the door to close it. Thsi prevents children from entering the washer and closing it from inside.

The door is removable and dishwasher safe, Kinda silly but it's a feature just in case the user wants to be lazy when it's time to clean the washer body.

It CAN wash king size duvets. Drying will take forever (average 3 or 4 hours), but it works.


Post# 982566 , Reply# 15   2/13/2018 at 00:30 (186 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Oh, and it has a spray rinse.

Post# 982697 , Reply# 16   2/13/2018 at 19:44 (185 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
1/2 Door...

speedqueen's profile picture
Could the machine also wash at near 1/2 the door if, say, the user selects an option to do so (or an easy adjustment/modification for AWers)?

Post# 982721 , Reply# 17   2/14/2018 at 00:14 (185 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

"The drying system doesn't use a total condenser (it has a dry condenser that doesn't use water to cool down)"

I'd think this'd be a major selling point: You could use the dryer anywhere there's an outlet.

My comments about flood pans, discharge rates, etc. were for would-be buyers whose landlords or co-op boards are hysterical about the building being "not able to handle" washers. It would probably be a selling point if the washer could use "dishwasher connections" The point is not the actual physics of the situation. The point is for buyers to have some sort of evidence to prove that if the building can handle a dishwasher, it can handle your washer.

Is there a possibility of a water heater and of warm rinses? It'd be another selling point if the owner would still be able to laundry even if the hot water were out (remember, many customers would live in old apartment buildings). I'd suspect most buyers would be happy to accept the longer wash times that would result. The prime concern would be for their schedule not to be disrupted.


Post# 982735 , Reply# 18   2/14/2018 at 02:53 (185 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

"Could the machine also wash at near 1/2 the door if, say, the user selects an option to do so (or an easy adjustment/modification for AWers)?"

It does.

Actually the user can select 3 water levels: "Eco-nazi", "Common-sens"e and "I want to use all the water in the world and make the clothes look like esther williams during the wash or the rinse"


Post# 982737 , Reply# 19   2/14/2018 at 02:57 (185 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

""The drying system doesn't use a total condenser (it has a dry condenser that doesn't use water to cool down)"

I'd think this'd be a major selling point: You could use the dryer anywhere there's an outlet.

My comments about flood pans, discharge rates, etc. were for would-be buyers whose landlords or co-op boards are hysterical about the building being "not able to handle" washers. It would probably be a selling point if the washer could use "dishwasher connections" The point is not the actual physics of the situation. The point is for buyers to have some sort of evidence to prove that if the building can handle a dishwasher, it can handle your washer.

Is there a possibility of a water heater and of warm rinses? It'd be another selling point if the owner would still be able to laundry even if the hot water were out (remember, many customers would live in old apartment buildings). I'd suspect most buyers would be happy to accept the longer wash times that would result. The prime concern would be for their schedule not to be disrupted. "


Pans: impossible

Draining: It drains slower than a dishwasher. It's almost like a dishwasher draininb with pauses.


It has a built in water heater and it is cold fill only.
Warm rinses, unfortunately no.

It also has delay start and user friendly (user selects the time to end the cycle and the washer calculates the delay based on the lenght of the cycle)


Post# 982738 , Reply# 20   2/14/2018 at 03:13 (185 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Modern European machines have built in flood pans, the bottom of the machine has that function, so it's doable. It's part of a water safety system, including a cut off of the water supply when the bottom of the machine gets flooded.

Post# 982739 , Reply# 21   2/14/2018 at 03:28 (185 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

The molds already exist, it's impossible to make new molds because the cost is absurd.

Post# 982934 , Reply# 22   2/15/2018 at 15:01 (184 days old) by superocd (PNW)        

I've always thought about incorporating a conventional dryer system into a front load washer platform. That is, having a submersible heating element around the back of the outer drum, in a similar manner of how GE and Frigidaire constructs their dryers (albeit, the elements are exposed nichrome and would NOT be a good mix around water!). This element could also heat water during the wash cycle. As for venting, a duct at the top of the outer drum connects to a small centrifugal blower, separated by a lint screen which is pulled up at the top.

As for the vanes in the drum, they would need to be deeper than what is typical in domestic FLs so that the laundry tumbles well as it should in a conventional dryer. I would imagine that deeper vanes would enhance wash performance as well.

I don't know how a gas-powered dry system would be incorporated into a FL, though. It would have to be heat exchanger tubes surrounding the outer drum.


Post# 982950 , Reply# 23   2/15/2018 at 17:30 (183 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

The issue with the dryer element being placed in the tub is the radiant heat. Radiant heat of a sufficently powerfull element will mean the SS drum heats up like a skillet and scorches clothing.
See the drying temperatures of the GE units.

Dryers with exposed wire elements never have the elements in direct line of sight to the laundry, and in general, no current system I know of has. Thus, no radiant heat is implied to the laundry.



A gas combo would just as any gas dryer have a burner assembly seperate from the wash tub with some kind of splash guard and air path to the tub.
The is a video of a gas combo on YouTube that explains that pretty well.





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