Thread Number: 74901
/ Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
Saturn LW300 woes.. |
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Post# 987131   3/18/2018 at 13:21 (2,228 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Man, been trying to track down a hard starting issue and I am simply flabbergasted at how many component(s) could be the cause. Here is a list...oh scratch fuel filter, replaced and still hard to start. Currently I have ordered a new crankshaft position sensor, and since added "Evap purge solenoid" to this list. The spark plugs were an epic ordeal to replace for the first time in this cars life (16 years 58k miles), and a first for me working on the motor in this car. If one is charged $200+ labor for the job the mechanic earned every penny imo. Imagine that, 6 silly spark plugs? Special inverted torx sockets a must btw. Bloody knuckles should also be expected.
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This post was last edited 03/18/2018 at 16:35 |
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Post# 987153 , Reply# 1   3/18/2018 at 15:58 (2,228 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 987166 , Reply# 2   3/18/2018 at 17:50 (2,227 days old) by speedqueen (Metro-Detroit)   |   | |
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Post# 987168 , Reply# 3   3/18/2018 at 17:52 (2,227 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Post# 987170 , Reply# 4   3/18/2018 at 18:53 (2,227 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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I remember having a starting problem in one car (among too many other problems, which ultimately doomed the car). I did some online research, and found that one common cause was a sensor. I think crank position, but that doesn't matter. What got me was that there were people saying that the sensor in this particular car could act up, and the only way to rule it out for 100% certain was to replace it. I don't know if they were right, but I assume they know more than me (which isn't hard to do). I recall shuddering at the idea--the sensor was something like a 2 or 3 hour job. I multiplied that by the going labor rate (I don't feel I have the ability and I certainly don't have the tools to do it myself). $300 or whatever...which might not fix the problem...
Of course, a mechanic could start by ruling out things that are easier/faster to check.
One other "joy" on this car was another starting problem that it always had during the time I owned it. If the car sat for more than a couple of days, it would be hard to start, and ran poorly. Once warmed up, it would be back to normal. A cold start the next day would be just fine. This car had belonged to the wife of a mechanic, and he said it was hugely frustrating for him. His wife had the same problem I did, and she'd come to him to complain. But, by that point, she'd driven it enough that the gremlins had gone away. He'd get in, and the car would behave. (One suspects that he could probably have banished the problem if he got really aggressive. But it probably didn't feel worth it, given that the car ran just fine when driven regularly.) |
Post# 987221 , Reply# 5   3/19/2018 at 06:59 (2,227 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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The injectors themselves? Fuel pressure regulator? My GMC Jimmy was having a problem dying...I had to drive it with two feet to keep it running, no big deal since my VW is a stick anyway so easy to drive with two feet. But anyway, it was the idle air control valve. I changed that and it's been fine ever since. I used to change spark plugs in our previous Devilles with the 4.9L V8 by lying on my back under the car and reaching up to the back of the engine.... |
Post# 987437 , Reply# 7   3/20/2018 at 17:51 (2,225 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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This car doesn’t stall. It does start better if you tun the key on position before cranking and wait for about 10 seconds. The car also lacks pep...is slow off the line. The ful pump was replaced rcently as the original one was leaking. I am begining to think the replacement pump is not up to snuff. The pump is in tank and costs about $200 to r & r. |
Post# 987439 , Reply# 8   3/20/2018 at 18:08 (2,225 days old) by ken (NYS)   |   | |
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Turning the key to the run position to cycle the fuel pump to build fuel pressure is a classic symptom of a failing/weak fuel pump. I had it a few years back on my 97 Chevy Blazer. Id cycle the key two or three times and it would start normally. If I tried to start it w/o cycling it would crank but not start. Usually after getting it started first time in the morning it would be okay until it sat for many hours. Then it would bother again. I installed a new pump and no more problem. If your Saturn uses whats commonly called a spider in the intake for fuel delivery it could also be that it's leaking, causing it to lose pressure, which will cause the same symptom.
BTW...Wonderful modern stuff to work on. Years ago the fuel pump was bolted to the side of the engine. Easy to get to and replace when needed. Having the pump in the tank makes it a joy to replace. I didn't go the PITA route of dropping the tank like recommended. I removed the back seat and cut a hole in the floor to gain access to the pump. Sorry, had to rant a little. |
Post# 987511 , Reply# 9   3/21/2018 at 06:53 (2,225 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Hey Ken, I had the same thing go wrong with my 2001 GMC Jimmy but I had zero symptoms. We went to the lake one night, launched the boat and floated all night, pulled the boat out of the water next morning and drove home. Parked the Jimmy and went to bed. Got up and went out to start...no start. Checked fuel pressure with gauge and it was way too low. Priced pumps and labor...ordered new Delphi pump on Amazon for $150 and spent a day dropping tank and replacing. Wasn't too hard just tedious and had to solder new updated connector on. But fired right up! I read online from forums to avoid Autozone and Advance Auto parts fuel pumps because they are crap so went with Delphi who makes the Delco one for GM. |
Post# 987515 , Reply# 10   3/21/2018 at 08:14 (2,225 days old) by ken (NYS)   |   | |
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Post# 992112 , Reply# 11   4/25/2018 at 16:53 (2,189 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Still working on sorting out this Saturn. Today went down to my mechanic and he installed the new crank position sensor which I had hoped would solve my problem...it didn't. That's the third time the fix that worked for other people describing similar problems with this same model car, didn't work for me. EGR valve was first, engine temp sensor next, now the crank position sensor. He cleaned the MAF sensor, the intake, checked the fuel pressure, and fiddled around with various other things. Finally after he noticed it usually started much better on the second try he decided it was probably the fuel pressure regulator. When he pointed it out to me it's location on the motor I also noticed a cracked vent hose, so that too may improve things. If he is right (have to order part) then I wasted about $200 in parts and labor costs, and hours of my own labor trying to sort this thing out replacing some parts needlessly. No doubt one of the most annoying car problems i can remember dealing with. This post was last edited 04/25/2018 at 22:11 |
Post# 992173 , Reply# 12   4/26/2018 at 07:28 (2,189 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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it will be a good car for a college student, etc. Ever heard of "One owner car guy"? He is in San Diego, and Montana. He has lots of youtube video's under "cereal marshmallows". Buyer beware, always! |
Post# 992178 , Reply# 13   4/26/2018 at 08:33 (2,189 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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And you have my deepest sympathies. When I was having problems with my '98 Buick 3.1, I got the same list of do this, do that, do the other thing. I've got the tools and ape-long arms, so was able to work through them. The crank position sensor replacement helped - those things are apparently a weak point of GM's Excellence in Engineering (cough, cough), but what finally did it was something totally different. You'll get it. There are pressure tests, by the way, before one spends the money. Not even difficult or expensive - they should start there.
Oh, and here's something which might be causing this and you might not have checked it - the anti-theft systems GM used throughout the '90s up to 2005/6 sometimes would not trigger a security display but still not activate the fuel pump every time. That could be part of it. |
Post# 992188 , Reply# 14   4/26/2018 at 09:43 (2,189 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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Robert, I hope this new fuel pressure regulator solves your problem!
Question, is it hard starting all the time, hot or cold? Or only after it sits a few hours? (edit: I missed that you noted it's sluggish off the line. Does power improve as RPM's build?)
My best friend has an early-mid 2000's Chevy truck which had an issue like this. If it sat more than 10-15 minutes after driving, he'd have to crank & crank (15-20 seconds) before it would start. After replacing the fuel pump (non-OEM), he would like you, have to turn the key on about 10 seconds before cranking and it would then start.
Bottom line in his case, it was a check valve in the fuel pump, allowing the fuel pressure to bleed off after sitting 10-15 mins. The replacement aftermarket pump check valve worked better, but not perfect. So after living with it for 9-10 months, he sprang for an OEM pump and it now starts as it's supposed to every time.
Kevin |
Post# 992210 , Reply# 15   4/26/2018 at 13:32 (2,189 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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engineers. They weren't the problem. Bean counters were. heard of magnaquench? GM engineers invented it. Shrank magnets in motors by 2/3 the size. |
Post# 994807 , Reply# 16   5/21/2018 at 10:08 (2,164 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Wow, new fuel pressure regulator AND a new MAF sensor, and it's still not working right. Now I am down to fuel pump check valve, vacuum leak, or something else. The idle is completely stable so I doubt vacuum leak, so next up, in goes a $10 inline fuel check valve.
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Post# 994832 , Reply# 18   5/21/2018 at 15:05 (2,164 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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What you are referring to as "air mass flow" I am calling MAF...so it's been taken care of. The throttle body/plate has been cleaned, and the idle is not high, except after cold start for a moment as is normal. When the mechanic put the new fuel pump in the tank he may have disturbed sediment which in turn is now interfering with the fuel pump check valve operation. My hope is by simply adding a post tank check valve I will save the cost of dropping the tank again. |
Post# 994883 , Reply# 19   5/22/2018 at 04:50 (2,163 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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how about the BMP sensor? Fuel filter should collect sediment, unless it's clogged. Get what you can for the car if you are selling it. Not worth all that much. Our kids had an L 200, and the exhaust smell was aweful. They didn't want the baby riding in it, so they donated it. |
Post# 994962 , Reply# 20   5/22/2018 at 19:30 (2,162 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Post# 995003 , Reply# 22   5/23/2018 at 10:27 (2,162 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Post# 995014 , Reply# 23   5/23/2018 at 13:39 (2,162 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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changes in idle speed? Surging? I dunno, you may have to live with that. |
Post# 995015 , Reply# 24   5/23/2018 at 13:45 (2,162 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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The idle is fine, I have no problems whatsoever with idle...let's just stop any and all thoughts about idle. This was never about idle. It will on occasion start and stumble at an extremely low idle, and input from the gas pedal will stall it. Restart and all is fine, or you can wait it out and it will recover on it's own without needing restart. |
Post# 995589 , Reply# 27   5/29/2018 at 21:07 (2,155 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)   |   | |
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The Chevy 350 small block that is going in my 1986 Chevy Camaro is carbureted, and I really won't have to deal with any computer no sense or trouble codes. I might have the Chevy 350 small block that is going in my '86 Camaro might stall a couple of times, but it's easy to fix a carburated vehicle that stalls compared to a newer vehicle that has issues stalling for no reason at all.
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Post# 1004824 , Reply# 29   8/25/2018 at 15:55 (2,068 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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It is scary how difficult so many things on this car are. So, STILL trying to fix the same problem, but FINALLY the car is getting worse...meaning maybe I can finally diagnose this bitch. The idle speed now bounces, or surges and the engine will die at low speed. YES, what I so vehemently denied being a problem earlier the car is very much doing now. Thank god I thought, that seems rather specific...ran to the internet, EUREKA, IDLE AIR CONTROL VALVE. Well, not so fast. I order the part, specifically for my model, motor and year, it arrives...but dang if I can find where it is located on the motor. Not only that, but nowhere can I find a diagram on the internet. And even worse, i then read in a Saturn chat room: “the L300 HAS NO IAC VALVE..wtf? So either that guy in the chat room is wrong, or the parts stores listing the part “for my vehicle” are wrong. Anybody got a clue? Know a guy who might have a clue? Ready to roll it off a cliff at this point.
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This post was last edited 08/25/2018 at 17:09 |
Post# 1004931 , Reply# 32   8/26/2018 at 10:19 (2,067 days old) by D-jones (Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh Area))   |   | |
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Quite a few years ago I had a Plymouth Duster with a 318 v8. I loved that car, but it began to have trouble starting and was making me crazy. It had fuel, it had air, and it had a good hot spark. So not being a properly trained mechanic yet I was really puzzled. But the thing I found really odd was that I would turn the key into the start position and the car would crank and crank and crank without ever starting. But as soon as I gave up the effort and backed the key off to the run position it would start, almost as if the car was mocking me. This didn’t happen every time, but frequently. Then my dad used a timing light to see where it was firing. I don’t recall how many degrees before top dead center the number one cylinder was supposed to fire, but it was all over the place; sometimes well before the timing mark and sometimes well after. My dad was puzzled and said he’d think it over a bit and see what he could come up with to explain what we were seeing. I drove the car to school the next day and on the way home I pushed in the clutch and the engine stalled. This time I couldn’t get it restarted so it was towed home. Finally tearing into the engine revealed the problem. The timing chain had either stretched or the nylon gear affixed to the cam shaft had word down. Whichever it was the result was the same. Too much slack had caused Crank and cam to be randomly out of sink by a small amount which caused the hard starting. On the way home from school that day they became way out of sink, the pistons came up and smacked all the valves and bent all the pushrods and the engine was done. So with that in mind, have you checked the timing?
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Post# 1004938 , Reply# 34   8/26/2018 at 11:04 (2,067 days old) by D-jones (Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh Area))   |   | |
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Mine was a 75 and had electronic ignition. Don’t see how you arrive at a flywheel problem since the car had no problem cranking, but just to be clear the Dusters problem was definitely to much slack in the timing chain which ultimately jumped a few teeth on the camshaft drive gear with catastrophic consequences. As Roberts car is getting worse I think if timing hasn’t been looked at yet it should be, if for no other reason than to rule it out.
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Post# 1004945 , Reply# 35   8/26/2018 at 12:26 (2,067 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA)   |   | |
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Robert, perhaps you should be looking at the Mirage not me! |
Post# 1005231 , Reply# 36   8/28/2018 at 15:26 (2,065 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Well FINALLY this story comes to an end... do LW300’s even have IAC’s, was it by cliff or crusher? So many questions. Here is what happened. A friend I worked at a gas station with one summer—35 YEARS AGO—mentioned to me the mechanic, Bentley, was still there working as he ever was...”Bentley always knew his stuff”, I thought, and more importantly, I trusted him. So after three and one half decades I rolled into the nearby Shell station and told the whole sorted tale...he sorta remembered me, and said “I’ll check it out”. Two hours later I had THE answer I have been waiting months for...three letters...any guesses?
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Post# 1005234 , Reply# 37   8/28/2018 at 15:37 (2,065 days old) by ken (NYS)   |   | |
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Post# 1005284 , Reply# 38   8/28/2018 at 20:00 (2,064 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Ah no... Try M-A-P... a small sensor that sits on the throttle body which I just recently noticed and started to think about before I threw in the towel and took it to a pro.
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Post# 1005287 , Reply# 39   8/28/2018 at 20:30 (2,064 days old) by D-jones (Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh Area))   |   | |
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Post# 1005294 , Reply# 40   8/28/2018 at 21:37 (2,064 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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I replaced the MAF sensor so whenever I saw “MAP sensor” mentioned I thought it was a different name for the same thing (MAF) oops...like body control module BCM vs engine control module ECM, seems it varies depending on manufacturer. Nope, MAP is it’s own animal, my bad. This post was last edited 08/29/2018 at 00:07 |
Post# 1005335 , Reply# 41   8/29/2018 at 08:08 (2,064 days old) by ken (NYS)   |   | |
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Post# 1006529 , Reply# 42   9/8/2018 at 19:25 (2,053 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Decided to change (not flush) the trans fluid. On this car that means dropping the pan as there is no drain plug, or even a dipstick...other than the guy driving! The car only has 60k miles, but those are mostly stop and go. The manual says change at 100k for normal 50k for tough conditions...trailers, etc. so I figured it was time. Got bids from $130-$280. Ended up going with the low bidder, but had them use a premium pan gasket rather than the minimum they usually use, that added $8. It uses metal grommets around the bolt holes, and has a centering pin, rather than not. My research said never flush auto transmissions (bad for seals), and be wary of even changing fluid in a high mileage unit. Sometimes high mileage transmissions need the grit and varnish to keep from slipping. To fill, you shift through the gears and remove a particular bolt which will then start to leak fluid once the trans has been filled to where it should be. It took 8 quarts of new fluid, and man does she shift and drive smooth now. The trans capacity is higher but a significant amount of fluid stays in the torque converter and other nooks and crannies. Thankfully the service manager snapped a couple of pics to show me the job was actually done, and what the old fluid looked like...toasty but not too burnt. I would swear it’s quieter too, I wonder if she was a couple of q’s low. I doubt it leaked any, but was it full when it left the factory? This post was last edited 09/08/2018 at 20:55 |
Post# 1006531 , Reply# 43   9/8/2018 at 20:01 (2,053 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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Post# 1006533 , Reply# 44   9/8/2018 at 20:03 (2,053 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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be wary of even changing fluid in a high mileage unit. Sometimes high mileage transmissions need the grit and varnish to keep from slipping.
From what I've heard, it sounds like it isn't high mileage that's a problem. It's when it's high mileage with fluid that hasn't been properly maintained (e.g., a transmission with high miles that still has its original fluid). |
Post# 1006536 , Reply# 45   9/8/2018 at 20:54 (2,053 days old) by ken (NYS)   |   | |
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Post# 1006537 , Reply# 46   9/8/2018 at 20:59 (2,053 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Post# 1006539 , Reply# 47   9/8/2018 at 21:07 (2,053 days old) by Stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
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Which reminds me of a question i’ve long pondered: what is the shelf life of ATF? 10 years, 20, 50? This post was last edited 09/08/2018 at 21:52 |
Post# 1006750 , Reply# 48   9/11/2018 at 05:33 (2,051 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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