Thread Number: 75842
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
2018 Maytag vs. SQ |
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Post# 996788   6/10/2018 at 20:05 (2,138 days old) by Supersurgilator (Indiana)   |   | |
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Look what finally came out! Thought u all would enjoy. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Supersurgilator's LINK |
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Post# 996793 , Reply# 1   6/10/2018 at 20:14 (2,138 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 996795 , Reply# 2   6/10/2018 at 20:23 (2,138 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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They started that. They deserve that. |
Post# 996798 , Reply# 3   6/10/2018 at 20:54 (2,138 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Post# 996799 , Reply# 4   6/10/2018 at 20:56 (2,138 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.)   |   | |
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What the hell is that SQ supposed to be doing? Can’t be washing. I love my Maytag Centennial. It is dependable, fairly quick, and does a great job both washing and rinsing. And that new Maytag Commercial machine looks like it means business. I would buy one if I neede to ever replace the current Maytag.
Eddie |
Post# 996800 , Reply# 5   6/10/2018 at 21:06 (2,138 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 996803 , Reply# 6   6/10/2018 at 21:11 (2,138 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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And I like the fact that they're both commercial grade. I give the SQ points for gentleness while maintaining powerful clean through forceful currents of water, not to mention the construction. At least SQ has Maytag to compete with. |
Post# 996805 , Reply# 7   6/10/2018 at 21:37 (2,138 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Aw shucks. Poor Speed Queen.
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Post# 996814 , Reply# 8   6/11/2018 at 00:07 (2,137 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
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If I have to buy a new washer-It would be the Maytag. |
Post# 996816 , Reply# 9   6/11/2018 at 01:48 (2,137 days old) by mayfan69 (Brisbane Queensland Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 996827 , Reply# 10   6/11/2018 at 09:56 (2,137 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)   |   | |
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Post# 996853 , Reply# 11   6/11/2018 at 14:36 (2,137 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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The most fascinating part of Speed Queen’s logic behind this machine is that whenever they show their own demonstrations of wash action, the tub is filled with what can’t be more than a half tub of dry clothes, yet a full tub of water. I’m sorry, but where is the improvement from the past design if in order to get good results, you have to load with less than half of what you could with the 2017- models? In theory that means this new 2018 design is MORE of a water and resource guzzler than its predecessors. And who are they kidding, I know of no typical American laundry user that is willing to wash less than a full, and frequently overloaded, tub of clothes, which this SQ design clearly can’t handle.
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Post# 996864 , Reply# 12   6/11/2018 at 17:54 (2,137 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA)   |   | |
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Where is LorainFurniture been? He's very quiet. Did SQ bump him off? |
Post# 996899 , Reply# 14   6/11/2018 at 20:26 (2,137 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )   |   | |
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I’m still alive |
Post# 996901 , Reply# 15   6/11/2018 at 20:30 (2,137 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
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Post# 996960 , Reply# 16   6/12/2018 at 12:35 (2,136 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA)   |   | |
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Interesting, the MT Commercial doesn't have a "clean cycle". |
Post# 996967 , Reply# 17   6/12/2018 at 14:30 (2,136 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Pretty much any dryer out there, new or vintage, is better than Speed Queens that dry everything until it's extra crispy.
I hate direct drive machines, even though they may deliver adequate results. But if Alliance hasn't fired their entire design team along with the execs that approved this epic fail, I don't know what they're waiting for. It would have been no contest between SQ's previous models with long stroke agitation. The DD Maytag would have been the loser in that one. |
Post# 996968 , Reply# 18   6/12/2018 at 15:03 (2,136 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 996973 , Reply# 19   6/12/2018 at 16:00 (2,136 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 996979 , Reply# 21   6/12/2018 at 16:48 (2,136 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 996987 , Reply# 22   6/12/2018 at 18:17 (2,136 days old) by john76 (USA)   |   | |
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And load rollover is what happens in a dual agitator washer. Not how most other washers operate. That dual agitator fails miserably in comparison if using the same criteria with a front load machine. |
Post# 996993 , Reply# 23   6/12/2018 at 18:38 (2,136 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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DD, VMW, whatever -- it's all the same to me. That rapid chick-chick short stroke action is annoying.
Whether you're inclined to defend the new SQ or mock it, the number of returned SQ machines due to cleaning failure is what will ultimately tell the tale.
And if anybody from Alliance has ever visited this site, they would have known better than to change their design so radically from one that had been celebrated by every sector of the general public, not just the washer enthusiasts here. |
Post# 997005 , Reply# 24   6/12/2018 at 19:47 (2,136 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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With all respect, there is a HUGE difference between a DirectDrive and the VMW belt drives. This Maytag Commercial model is the first to use the short quick strokes for long periods of time rather than switching to the longer wide strokes at the beginning of the wash portion. The shorter stroke agitation is still only *maybe* 90 oscillations per minute. The DirectDrives agitated at 180 opm on their regular/fast agitation speed, which gave them their loud knocky sound and their “Shredmore” nickname. I loved the WTW4800 VMW Whirlpool I had for a few years. The longer wider stroke agitation was gentle but could rollover large loads just fine.
The ONLY DirectDrive I would ever willingly have would be a true KitchenAid Superba 3-speed, with the slightly larger agitator fins but with the agitation speed maxed out at 120 opm. |
Post# 997006 , Reply# 25   6/12/2018 at 19:51 (2,136 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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I'd take the 2018 Speed Queen anyday because it cleans gentler and better due to the currents of water passing over and through the clothes, and the fact that it's built more solid compared to the Maytag. Just saying! |
Post# 997011 , Reply# 27   6/12/2018 at 20:04 (2,136 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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The 2018 SpeedQueen has been rated poorly by Consumer Reports.
Currents of water or no. It doesn't perform well in a plethora of tests. The only two places I've seen SQ's new design perform "well" is by claims from SQ themselves, but no evidence. And from Kirk Rivas' reviews where he puts wet muddy jeans in them. That's not dried on dirt, nor is it a real stain. It's just mud on jeans. Garden hoses could remove that. |
Post# 997029 , Reply# 28   6/13/2018 at 00:20 (2,135 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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Post# 997091 , Reply# 31   6/13/2018 at 22:07 (2,135 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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Post# 997092 , Reply# 32   6/13/2018 at 22:07 (2,135 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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Post# 997096 , Reply# 33   6/13/2018 at 23:28 (2,134 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)   |   | |
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Post# 997100 , Reply# 34   6/14/2018 at 00:34 (2,134 days old) by speedqueen (Metro-Detroit)   |   | |
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Aggressive rollover isn't the actual cleaning action, it is a side effect of very strong water currents at the bottom of the tub, a concept invented by Maytag with their "Gyrator" agitator versus the previous oscillating dolly types. Rollover is however needed to insure that all clothes get their turn at the strong water currents, henceforth the addition of a cork-screw does actually help cleaning action.
In clothe-less demonstrations of the new SQ, there are hardly any water currents to be seen, on the new Maytag, however I could actually see it forcing water currents through every fiber, the SQ, not even close...
To conclude, these are just marketing buzz words used to paper over the glaring flaws in the design. |
Post# 997129 , Reply# 36   6/14/2018 at 10:14 (2,134 days old) by Glhturbo2 (Reidsville, NC)   |   | |
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That Speed Queen made that. I will take the Maytag any day. I really would like to see my greasy work clothes in these. My Frigidaires handle the clothes wonderfully. -Tyler |
Post# 997237 , Reply# 37   6/15/2018 at 11:10 (2,133 days old) by GusHerb (Chicago/NWI)   |   | |
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I like how they made it look like it’s actually moving clothes in their latest video... |
Post# 997248 , Reply# 38   6/15/2018 at 14:06 (2,133 days old) by speedqueen (Metro-Detroit)   |   | |
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Looks like everything is getting tied to the agitator, just brilliant...
To the few lawn mower enthusiasts here, this is eerily similar to what Snapper did with their venerable rear engine riding mower in 2012, I wanted to like the new design but then heard all the bad reviews about chassis parts like the steering breaking, something virtually impossible with the older design. I used to consider Snapper the last good quality riding mower, after Briggs and Stratton bought them out, they are a far cry from "the company that said no to Walmart". CLICK HERE TO GO TO speedqueen's LINK
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Post# 997268 , Reply# 39   6/15/2018 at 18:52 (2,133 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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Oh nice.
They gave an official name to their steaming turd. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
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Post# 997342 , Reply# 42   6/16/2018 at 12:25 (2,132 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)   |   | |
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Game changing? I suppose so, when you consider Alliance has turned it into a no-contest situation. Sorry Speed Queen, you lose.
"Proven" to get clothes clean? By who, exactly, and how? I've seen videos from unbiased testers that indicate the exact opposite.
As we've witnessed over the past couple of years, the example these days is that when you're making false claims and are called out on them, you double down. This will lead to SQ losing the popular vote. |
Post# 997396 , Reply# 43   6/17/2018 at 04:49 (2,131 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Not to de-rail.... I've had my Snapper for about 17 years. Bought it new and still starts on the first pull of the cord (manual start). The new rear engine rider looks like an updated Murray....(B&S took Murray over since Murray was so in debt to them, then they closed the plant in Lawrenceburg, TN). Ironically, Murray fought for many years to keep other factories that paid more out of Lawrenceburg. People thought they just COULDN'T live without Murray. Well guess what? Lawrenceburg is still there and the people are still living while Murray is gone and that big old blue building has been empty for a long time. I hated that place when I worked there!
We now return to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.... |
Post# 997453 , Reply# 44   6/17/2018 at 15:10 (2,131 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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At least the 2018 sq is built tough. |
Post# 997456 , Reply# 45   6/17/2018 at 16:55 (2,131 days old) by Aquarius1984 (Planet earth)   |   | |
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Post# 997462 , Reply# 46   6/17/2018 at 17:47 (2,131 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )   |   | |
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Washboards last forever |
Post# 997464 , Reply# 47   6/17/2018 at 17:58 (2,131 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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The very nice owner of the store where I bought my 2017 Speed Queen (and yes it's still stored away in the garage) pointed to the "old" and new front-less SQ's on his sales floor and said "at least this new machine looks like it would be easy to service"...and why not, a motor, a little electric pump and a great big belt. |
Post# 997465 , Reply# 48   6/17/2018 at 18:00 (2,131 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.)   |   | |
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Post# 997506 , Reply# 49   6/17/2018 at 21:37 (2,131 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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Post# 997580 , Reply# 51   6/18/2018 at 09:40 (2,130 days old) by speedqueen (Metro-Detroit)   |   | |
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Post# 997596 , Reply# 52   6/18/2018 at 14:36 (2,130 days old) by washerdude (Canada )   |   | |
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Better yet, you don't even need a 2018 speed queen if you have a laundry tub. Simply fill it up with water, load clothes and detergent and push the clothes around weakly by hand. |
Post# 997609 , Reply# 53   6/18/2018 at 16:29 (2,130 days old) by Infusor (Usa)   |   | |
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Why are people on here so rude. |
Post# 997638 , Reply# 54   6/18/2018 at 23:52 (2,129 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
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There was a member on here that would put clothes and water in a tub-then use a Maytag agitator by hand.That would work better than the 2018 SQ.Just that YOU do the work rather than the washer. |
Post# 997691 , Reply# 55   6/19/2018 at 10:23 (2,129 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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Yeah, there's definitely been people who have let their passions fly on this open forum. Even on the border of being rude to eachother.
But I just have to laugh, hearing lessons on rudeness from you, Infusor. Post# 992678 , Reply# 55 4/30/2018 at 21:41 by Infusor (Usa) report offensive post to webmaster Checkrate/Like 1 The fisher & paykel agitator top load WA3927G1 had the same score in every category scored just "fair" for stains and has a 55 minute cycle, compared to speed queens heavy duty at 50 min, which ALSO scored "fair" yet i do not hear anybody bashing that machine. My how people can be so biased and ignorant. In fact lots of people on here have said "it's the only top loader worth buying now" SMH Post# 993875 , Reply# 20 5/11/2018 at 12:57 by Infusor (Usa) report offensive post to webmaster Checkrate/Like Yes it is apples to apples genius, both 50min cycles both warm water. Funny how you make excuses for the fisher and paykel but bash speed queen. "Oh well it would do better with a longer cycle" ya well the speed queens heavy duty is as long as fisher and paykels normal and they get same results go figure. " oh well the FP would do better on heavy duty" yeah FP heavy duty is well over an hour. Give speed queen over an hour and it would do great. You are clearly biased Post# 993883 , Reply# 22 5/11/2018 at 14:48 by Infusor (Usa) report offensive post to webmaster Checkrate/Like YES IT IS!!!!!! Cycle time temp everything is the same, do you not have common sense?? There is a cycle on the tr7 called max soil, it has an even longer wash time AND a soak period. You do not know what you are talking about. Post# 993885 , Reply# 24 5/11/2018 at 14:58 by Infusor (Usa) report offensive post to webmaster Checkrate/Like Im done trying to explain common sense to people too challenged to comprehend. WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF WASH TIME THEY PERFORM THE SAME!!!! Ughh. 50 min and 55 min pretty comparable to me. You are trying to compare a 28 min cycle to a 55 min cycle. Heavy duty is basically speed queens normal cycle. Even says in the owners manual normal eco is only for "lightly soiled items" Post# 993933 , Reply# 44 5/11/2018 at 23:49 by Infusor (Usa) report offensive post to webmaster Checkrate/Like Your point is ignore the facts about the 2017. Because you are biased thats why. Post# 993984 , Reply# 55 5/12/2018 at 12:56 by Infusor (Usa) report offensive post to webmaster Checkrate/Like So i give you proof of people i have talked to that said the machine did great and you dismiss it and say "its just a review" yet if its NEGATIVE you are all about reviews. Just proves all you ignorant and biased people on here are all about attacking me. And literally anything i say. And some peoples vandetta against speed queen. In the words of eugene "its going to be a bloid bath" if thats not vandetta i dont know what is. I guess it doesnt matter anyways, all you people on here do is complain how everything modern is basically junk anyways. |
Post# 997793 , Reply# 58   6/19/2018 at 21:55 (2,129 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)   |   | |
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I too thought what "Infusor" said was as Bianco del Rio would say..."Really, Queen?!" Talking about being rude...ummm that takes some balls to call people out on that fact since you were the one that didn't care for what people had to say here. I get it that you are a SQ dealer since you decided to post a memo that Alliance sent to your dealer on here. Then the pieces of the puzzle fit together and I thought now I get it. If we are saying that the new SQ machines for 2018 are not going to pass muster and CU says that as well other sites, there must be some truth to it...they can't all be wrong. This I know will hurt your bottom line, not to mention the suckers ...er I mean customers that think that the new and "improved" SQ washers will be better than the previous generation, they will get them installed in their home only to find out that the machine can't even do its task of getting clothes clean...I can tell you that alot of people will return said machine and if you refuse, count on a state's Consumer Protection Bureau to be up your ass and not in a good way.
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Post# 997794 , Reply# 59   6/19/2018 at 22:02 (2,129 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)   |   | |
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Post# 997933 , Reply# 61   6/21/2018 at 12:01 (2,127 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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Not only rude, but often filled with dirty low-life words and comments...a sure sign of a single-digit IQ. They don't belong here.
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Post# 997985 , Reply# 62   6/21/2018 at 22:41 (2,127 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)   |   | |
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The washer cleans exceptionally well. Time will tell on durability. The Maytags replaced a GE pair that's less than one year old. The GE washer has some major design flaws. I'm very happy with the Maytag pair so far!
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Post# 998002 , Reply# 63   6/22/2018 at 06:20 (2,126 days old) by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)   |   | |
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Joe (twintubdexter), you'd probably be horrified by my language in real life too... I just tend not to employ it here out of respect for our hosts and 99% of my fellow members! |
Post# 998058 , Reply# 64   6/22/2018 at 19:11 (2,126 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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Not really horrified at all. I have a friend who lives in Scotland who has very colorful language. Fortunately (for me) his Scottish Brogue is so heavy (and very cool) I can't understand most of what he says. My next-door neighbor, a graduate of Holy Cross College in Boston who hangs with very influential people, talks like a longshoreman. If I wanted to get horrified at something I'd complain that's it's currently 112 outside at 5:00 PM. Blah!
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Post# 998085 , Reply# 65   6/22/2018 at 22:37 (2,126 days old) by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)   |   | |
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Fair enough! 112f is 44c - who the heck thought it was a good idea to create human habitation somewhere that hot?! |
Post# 998215 , Reply# 67   6/24/2018 at 07:16 (2,124 days old) by john76 (USA)   |   | |
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Nice review, the SQ is on my list to replace my 15 year old Maytag. It fits into my required space and I like that you can control the water level. Should wash fine for my needs. |
Post# 998261 , Reply# 68   6/24/2018 at 15:31 (2,124 days old) by Infusor (Usa)   |   | |
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Thanks john, i will be doing more testing loads to see how it performs. |
Post# 998327 , Reply# 69   6/25/2018 at 04:09 (2,123 days old) by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)   |   | |
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John, what Maytag have you got? |
Post# 998339 , Reply# 70   6/25/2018 at 07:14 (2,123 days old) by john76 (USA)   |   | |
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Maytag LAT2200 |
Post# 998422 , Reply# 71   6/26/2018 at 10:39 (2,122 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)   |   | |
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Post# 998512 , Reply# 74   6/27/2018 at 05:28 (2,121 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 998556 , Reply# 75   6/27/2018 at 11:35 (2,121 days old) by Infusor (Usa)   |   | |
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☝️ that's exactly what i was thinking too. You would think they would want to make even more money by selling to residential customers too. Maybe they got maxed out on their production schedule and couldn't handle it. Seems weird to me. |
Post# 998917 , Reply# 76   6/30/2018 at 18:33 (2,118 days old) by historyman (Pittsburgh, PA/Aiken, SC)   |   | |
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Post# 999083 , Reply# 77   7/2/2018 at 15:56 (2,116 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)   |   | |
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Post# 999264 , Reply# 80   7/4/2018 at 07:00 (2,114 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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This is is why SQ is still making the machines with the transmission, the older machine does a very good job washing most clothing loads in around 35 minutes.
We have built and used over 1/2 BILLION top load washers in this country over the last 70+ years and while they have their faults no one has ever suggested Americans do not wear and have about the cleanest best smelling clothing that one will experience anywhere in the world.
John L. |
Post# 999270 , Reply# 81   7/4/2018 at 09:26 (2,114 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)   |   | |
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Clothes get clean by pushing water and detergent through the fabric. This is how all washing machines work, and also how a washboard works. Front loaders need more time because they have less action. |
Post# 999288 , Reply# 83   7/4/2018 at 15:14 (2,114 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)   |   | |
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Some people like dogs and dislike cats. Some people don't like front-load washers (especially those like me with painful backs) and prefer top-load machines. There's plenty of room for both of these models to exist happily in America's homes. There's no need to defend front-loaders as if the people that own top-load washers are stupid. Like stainless steel they're nothing new. And as for them being "the choice" in Europe, most washers (if you're fortunate enough to have one) are found installed next to the toilet or the kitchen sink. "Compact" is a polite way to characterize them, "puny" is more accurate.
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Post# 999512 , Reply# 88   7/6/2018 at 13:23 (2,112 days old) by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
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here what I have heard said by a service tech himself sometime its best to keep and have repaired the old set rather than buy a new set washers today are also like computers when they sense fill for the main wash they analyse in order to put the right amount of water compared to older machines that have a water level in term of top load from large to small washer model changes over the years and also before I forget if your in the market to buy a new washer you need to chose the one that fits your needs in term of cycle everyday use.
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Post# 999537 , Reply# 89   7/6/2018 at 15:18 (2,112 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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This is one reason why I really like my Kenmore He5t FL, it does full speed spins between the wash / rinses. Granted I don't wash super grungy items on a regular basis, but it cleans everything really well.
I have a MT Neptune 6500 and I need reconnect it and confirm, but I've got a strong hunch it doesn't spin (only drains) after the wash before filling for the first rinse. I do know it spins after each rinse however.
I used to have an older "GE" compact TL washer (built by Hitachi) with a spinning impeller at the bottom of the tub. While it's a neat older washer, it would only drain & refill after the wash and first 2 rinses, the only time it spins is after the 3rd rinse. I rarely used it because of this.
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Post# 1000080 , Reply# 90   7/12/2018 at 06:31 (2,106 days old) by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)   |   | |
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My 2005 Miele W2240 spins before and after all rinses. So did the old 410/412/416 and 420/421 Deluxe machines of the 60s and early 70s. Ditto the old AEG Lavamats. |
Post# 1000083 , Reply# 91   7/12/2018 at 07:30 (2,106 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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The 410 did not spin before each rinse: Neither did the 416: Neither the 420: Neither did the Lavamat 803: Neither did the De Luxe Electronic: |
Post# 1000110 , Reply# 92   7/12/2018 at 15:00 (2,106 days old) by speedqueen (Metro-Detroit)   |   | |
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Post# 1000262 , Reply# 93   7/14/2018 at 07:43 (2,104 days old) by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)   |   | |
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Henene4 - I shall have to look up some more videos, but I've definitely seen 420s and 421s that spun before every rinse, ditto the old AEG Lavamat Nova/Regina/Deluxe with the backlit controls... |
Post# 1000268 , Reply# 94   7/14/2018 at 09:47 (2,104 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1000270 , Reply# 95   7/14/2018 at 10:00 (2,104 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1000282 , Reply# 96   7/14/2018 at 13:52 (2,104 days old) by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)   |   | |
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Yeah, I used a small 's' to indicate plural, not a suffix - 420 was called "De Luxe" I believe? Then there was the 520 - was that just a rebadge? And the 421 seemed to go through a few changes, different doors for a start. |
Post# 1000302 , Reply# 98   7/14/2018 at 17:47 (2,104 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1000339 , Reply# 100   7/15/2018 at 05:30 (2,103 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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