Thread Number: 76001  /  Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
The saga of the stand pipe....
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Post# 998500   6/27/2018 at 01:24 by robbinsandmyers (Hamden CT)        

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This saga of suds lock on my A407 may finally be coming to a head. I measured the top of the stand pipe and its 5' off the basement floor. My A407 is sitting on the floor. Should I build a platform to put it on and if so how high? Im so sick of having to run downstairs and turn the water off before the first spin cycle because the machine suds locks and I have to let it bog down with rinse water that wont drain then quickly shut it off during spin and re-start it so it pumps the rinse water out. Many thanks in advance.




Post# 998502 , Reply# 1   6/27/2018 at 03:48 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

That is really strange.

Of course there are limits, but just a few centimeters above the rated limit shouldn't cause any extreme harm because of the "error margin".

Before something so dramatic, I'd first check the pump and drain hose. they can be clogged with lint or mineral deposits.

Other thing I'd try before having to take the washer apart is fill it on low, dissolve some citric acid (agitate a few minutes) then drain for 10 seconds to fill the drain hose with the solution and stop the washer, let it sit overnight.

It may help dissolving mineral deposits, if that is the problem.

Other product that may help is CLR. Same thing, low water level, a whole bottle, soak overnight

Don't let it run the whole cycle with CLR because CLR is extremely sudsy and will cause a suds lock.

The third alternative is Affresh... Ignore the directions, toss 3 or 4 tablets at once.

If possible, drain in a bucket, so you can see if something comes out.


A few days ago I ran a cycle with Affresh in a "Samtag" Neptune. I thought the washer was super clean.... When it drained it it spit a huge ball of long human hair + black pet hair + lint + mineral "crystals". It almost clogged my laundry sink drain. It was gross! And I used only ONE tablet... I can imagine what else was left behind.


Post# 998538 , Reply# 2   6/27/2018 at 09:03 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I only encountered this type of situation a few times....

the only time a high pump out is a concern is if you start to go over that 6 foot height....then a platform would be needed....

one thing I never liked about long drain hoses, especially if a backflow valve was not installed, all that wash water left in the hose will be sucked back into the machine during rinse....

the one thing that I never thought of was the pump, which seemed to look and work fine, but would get an air-lock, you had to stop the machine and restart to get the last of the water pumped out.....a new pump fixed the issue, but I can't explain why....

the second issue was too much detergent, you had a fine line of watching how dirty the clothes were and match the dosage exactly to prevent the suds lock...

there have been incidences of the drain hose having too much play in it, found it best to keep the run as direct and straight to the tub/pipe...

I would be curious to see a few load run using Rosalie's detergent.....that not only is a suds free detergent, but will knock down any suds found in the machine...

would also be curious to how the machine would react by draining it into a large trash can set on the floor next to the machine...if this works, may be consider a laundry tub that pumps up installed for your situation...






Post# 998543 , Reply# 3   6/27/2018 at 10:33 by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Neat drain pump.

Mine has a sink, which empties into the clean out on the basement floor. There is a second clean out cap next to it. The upstairs kitchen sink drain also terminates there. The original to the house kitchen drain and main stack also, and goes up to the roof. There is a second stack vent to the roof, at the other end of the house for the main, and basement bath.
It has always drained well, but lately I hear water emptying down the stack vent pipe when the washer drains. No water backs up into the laundry, nor kitchen sink.
The laundry sink does fill with a bit more water than it used to from the washer draining. I always use lint screens. Maybe there is a slight clog at the junction near the floor. I've plunged it out, with no change. Maybe needs snaking, or could the roof vent be a bit blocked with leaves, or debris? The floor drain in front of the washer never fills to the top.
So the pipe routing is one horizontal pvc drain from the laundry tub trap, about 2.5 feet to the drain junction from the 2 inch diameter pvc kitchen drain. The original galvanized steel 21/2 inch kitchen drain and stack vent terminate next to them on the floor. They are separate to the floor.
Maybe this is a normal flow for this type of set up? Maybe I never noticed the stack filling with water before?


Post# 998557 , Reply# 4   6/27/2018 at 11:36 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        
Likely a suds issue, not a waste line issue

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My A712 did the same thing once in a while when I had it on my back patio.  The top of the drain pipe was at most 4' off the ground.  This was absolutely related to the amount and type of detergent.  There was no problem with the waste piping, as it was all brand new or nearly so, and properly vented.  I don't think the machine would have behaved any differently if it had been draining into a utility sink.

 

That having been said, I've yet to hook the machine up in the basement at our new house.  I had the laundry relocated from off the kitchen to down in the basement, with new water supply lines and a pump installed.  The FL Neptune washer drains into the adjacent new utility sink.  The 712 will drain into the same sink as Martin has suggested.  We'll see how it does. 

 

I've learned the key lesson, though.  No more Mexican powder.  That stuff generates way too much suds.  Since I buy "he" detergent for the FL machine, that's what I'll use in the 712 too.  Now that I have a Neptune, it might be able to handle P&G's "for both" powdered "he" formula.  My Affinity hated it, but the Neptune supposedly has the capability of coping with non-"he" detergent, which is what the "for both" formula is, IMO.


Post# 998563 , Reply# 5   6/27/2018 at 13:55 by good-shepherd (New Jersey)        
Should I build a platform

No need to build a platform.

Pick up four 4" x 16" solid concrete blocks at Home Depot or Lowes etc. Put two in front, ends butted together (parallel to the front panel) same in the back.

Easy way to get them in place is tilt the washer forward and have helper slide them into place, (I don't have a helper so I use my foot). Repeat for the rear blocks or vice versa if that works better.

Keep a close watch on the machine at first to make sure its balanced okay, especially on spin. You may have to adjust the blocks depending on the floor.


Post# 998565 , Reply# 6   6/27/2018 at 14:02 by robbinsandmyers (Hamden CT)        

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Thanks for the input guys. I have thought it may be a pump issue but it drains that tub full of water out pretty quickly. If I use the extra large setting then it will take almost till the rinse cycle to come up to speed once it finally drains. I guess the pump has a hard time pumping rinse water out due to gravity. The water left in the drain hose and pump weighs more than the rinse spray so it gets locked. If I let the rinse water accumulate in the tub so the spin basket gets bogged and slows down it will immediatly pump it out if I quickly push the timer knob in and pull it back out a few seconds later. I thought maximum stand pipe height was 4.5'? My drain hose has an extension on it also. I'll try and take a video later of the set up. Thanks.

Post# 998577 , Reply# 7   6/27/2018 at 14:56 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        
"Extra Large" Water Level Setting

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From my own experience and shared ones from others, it's typical for the spray rinse to begin just slightly before the machine hits top spin speed if you have it set for maximum fill.  My guess is that this is due to the larger tub machines using the same timer as smaller tub models.

 

I suppose Maytag didn't want to go to the expense of extending the timer increment and assigning a new part number that was exclusive to the extra large capacity models, or making such a slightly altered timer standard on all models.  It would have been a better situation if after draining completely, the standard tub models spun a little longer before the spray rinse began rather than the larger tub models not quite reaching full speed before the spray sequence.


Post# 998580 , Reply# 8   6/27/2018 at 15:15 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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if you can find one.....there was a motor pulley designed for high pump out locations....it forced the pump to spin faster....

much like the 50hz setup.....


Post# 998583 , Reply# 9   6/27/2018 at 15:26 by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Thank's Ralph!

I forgot to mention the gurgling I also now hear from the kitchen drain as the washer drains. Still suds?
I have began using liquid Tide in the last couple months, and a bit more of it.
I think it's still a low sudsing, but there is some. I also now use Lysol liquid laundry sanitizer.


Post# 998591 , Reply# 10   6/27/2018 at 16:18 by jeb (Mansfield Ohiio)        
Maytag spin drain

I had one that would not drain all the water in the spin before the rinse but only sometimes. I found a large grommet(like on a tarp) in the outer tub. It would spin round with the water most of the time but every now and then get stuck in the water outlet, restricting the water flow but not stopping it completely. On the longer final spin it was able to remove all the water. Once I removed the grommet every load worked fine. The washer was given to me working this way and I always wondered what they washed that would have a large grommet like that.

Post# 998599 , Reply# 11   6/27/2018 at 17:13 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

BE VERY CAREFUL OF ANY ACID IN A PORCELAIN TUB WASHER. I don't care what kind of acid it is, the porcelain tubs are not made to withstand acid. The coating is thinnest on the edges of the drain holes. If you leave whites in the washer after using acid in the tub, you will start getting little orange spots and circles on them when the rest of the tub looks fine.

Post# 998641 , Reply# 12   6/28/2018 at 01:26 by robbinsandmyers (Hamden CT)        
Yogitunes

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Do you mean the #202507 pulley or is that the 50 Hz pulley? Do I have to change belts also?

Post# 998647 , Reply# 13   6/28/2018 at 04:12 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I agree with Yogi, sounds to me like the pump is losing prime.  It drains, then gets some air in behind some of the water beyond the pump in the drain hose, then as the tub comes up to speed there's a smaller amount of water being spun out of the clothes and begins to accumulate but it's not enough to push out the air in the pump that's trapped by the water in the hose beyond, then the spray rinse kicks in and you have a lot more water coming in behind the air.  Stopping and quickly restarting allows it to back flow enough to push that air backwards  and regain prime.  My Asko would do this occasionally too, but only when the concertina hose had ballooned out and needed to be replaced due to degradation from age and high temps.  It would drain fine in between the burst spins, but on final rinse and drain it would lose pump prime.  It would spin but there would still be water sloshing around in the drum because some air would get trapped in the bulging area.  I could stop the machine and immediately restart it and it would finish draining out perfectly.  For me, replacing my concertina hose fixed it.  Of course I know your washer doesn't have one.  Same thing happens when we clean our garden pond...when it gets low enough to suck up even a small bit of air it will just sit there and spin, even if there is still water in the bottom.  I can unplug it for a second and plug back in and it will start pumping out again.  I may be way off base but that's what I'm imagining in my little brain to be happening. 

 

Ralph, which Mexican powder?  I've been using Mexican Ariel from walmart in my FL and even with a water softener it does just fine as far as suds go.


Post# 998698 , Reply# 14   6/28/2018 at 12:36 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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Greg, I was using both FOCA and ROMA, which seem to be the same product with different labels.   I'll give Ariel a shot once I have the 712 connected again.  I saw one of the perks of getting that machine being the ability to use Mexican powder, so if Ariel works, I'll stick with that.


Post# 998845 , Reply# 15   6/29/2018 at 22:34 by super32 (Blackstone Massachusetts)        

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I had this problem when i got my A613 about 4ish years ago. The short answer was a set of belts and adjusted the pump. While it seemed that the pump was powering the water out, it was not doing it as fast as it should. A Maytag should be able to take a full tub of water (extra large) and go from a stand stil to full speed in 90 seconds. As i seem to remember there is a slight delay in the timer until the pressure switch opens up then the timer starts advancing. But If it cant power the water out quick enough and accelerate then you have issues of drag, slowing down during the spray rinse, suds lock, or in extream cases customes will complain the clothes feel wet at the end of the cycle because it never really spins fast enough long enough in the final spin. Beware, on the flip side if the pump belt is too tight it will power the water out just fine but it will rob the main drive belt by not allowing the motor to “slide” back and accelerate the tub, thus causing basically the same type of problem. It was never a problem on smaller loads, only larger and heavy loads ie; towels.

All of this is said assuming your pump and the rest of your machine is working properly.


Post# 998848 , Reply# 16   6/29/2018 at 22:56 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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My 511 was doing the same slow drain after 30 years and new belts and pump realignment and ex. large load drains fine in the same 90 seconds 5 years later.

Post# 998934 , Reply# 17   6/30/2018 at 22:35 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Ralph,

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The magic number for my Miele is 2/3 cup of Ariel. Perfect every time. YMMV




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