Thread Number: 76098  /  Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
Air Conditioners
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Post# 999395   7/5/2018 at 13:01 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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with the heat wave in full force....this would be a good time to ask about air conditioners, mainly window unit styles.....

always prefer a vintage unit....but it may come time to buy a new one....


opinions, thoughts, ideas.....good, bad, ugly.....what is available today?



I do know a high EER gives more energy savings, but for a colder output, select a lower EER value...


always a good idea to buy a BTU rating for your space with a little bit of overkill....





Post# 999401 , Reply# 1   7/5/2018 at 13:48 by eronie (Flushing Michigan)        

You are right on the money Yogi!
And dont even think about those hose window things...


Post# 999423 , Reply# 2   7/5/2018 at 17:19 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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We got a new Friedrich window unit (installed through-the-wall) recently at work.  It's clearly sourced from LG.  :-(   It went to throwing a CH34 fault code (compressor high pressure or overload, off 10 times in an hour) within a few weeks.  The dealer/service advised to run it in continuous-fan mode instead of MoneySaver® but that doesn't help.  No other service attempt has been made thus far but hopefully something will happen before the warranty expires.


Post# 999431 , Reply# 3   7/5/2018 at 18:16 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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I'm also interested in hearing what others know.  Although my house has central air, I always install a window unit in my bedroom so I can sleep at a nice cool 60 degrees without spending a fortune.

 

Right now I'm using a 5000 BTU Frigidaire unit going on its fifth summer.  (Link below.) It works well, but it's loud when the compressor turns on.  It wouldn't be great for light sleepers who couldn't get used to it.

 

I do wonder if there is any meaningful difference between brands these days.

 

It's amazing the ones I see on CL that have never been cleaned, inside or out!



CLICK HERE TO GO TO IowaBear's LINK

Post# 999432 , Reply# 4   7/5/2018 at 18:21 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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The portable units on wheels can be super loud.  I bought one off CL in advance of a record-breaking heat wave that hit over last Labor Day weekend.  I will say that it made sleeping easier, but that's about all.  It took three nights to get used to the racket.  The brand was "Royal Sovereign," which I've never heard of.

 

Then a few months later I saw one for free on CL.  That one was a GE and it was a lot quieter.  I was planning to use it this summer, but then we moved to a new house with central A/C.  I gave both portables away to a friend's sister who runs a bed & breakfast near Roseburg, OR where it can reach triple digits during the summer.   I haven't yet heard how they're working out.

 

We had a Sharp 12K BTU window unit in a small west-facing upstairs bedroom at our old place.  It did a good job and even got the room across the hall cooler with a strategically placed fan.

 

 


Post# 999440 , Reply# 5   7/5/2018 at 19:19 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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I have an 80's something woodgrain Frigidaire 8000 btu that weighs a ton to put in and out, but cools the bedroom fine and sleeping is perfect. Its already 15 degrees cooler there than any breeze coming off the lake thru the rest of the house and I only turned it on 2 hours ago. Maybe this heat wave has broke.

Post# 999443 , Reply# 6   7/5/2018 at 19:46 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I have several smaller spares, for emergencies...something you can quickly pop in a window....GE CarryCool were some unique ideas....

you will find a lot on CL for sale, where the owner either moved to, or had central air installed, thinking they no longer need a window unit......I snatch some of those up cheap, but here is the thing, if that central goes out, you lost the whole house, and now you may have to wait for days for a repair guy, especially in the middle of Summer, at least if you had a spare or two, it would get you through.....

5000btu units will function with most portable generators...

even with the house that has central, I have a unit in the bedroom like Jim, why pay to cool the whole house for only two people.....


another thought to consider, location of your dryer, many are in a first floor bathroom or similar....for the locations like this, I have been fortunate to have a window, and a door that closed that room off...a dryer can suck out a lot of 'conditioned' air

I do miss the Kenmore A/C's of the 70/80's with the woodgrain front, those were extremely quiet.....my preference is always a unit the 'Energy Saver' that turns the whole unit off...

and you are right when it comes to what you find on CL.....filthy and disgusting, yet they have a nerve to ask the price they want...



Post# 999444 , Reply# 7   7/5/2018 at 19:47 by abcomatic (Bradford, Illinois)        

We have central air, but it doesn't seem to work well upstairs. I have a unit in the tv room upstairs and it cools well. It is a Frigidaire and is 3 years old. i have it set at 71 and am very comfortable. It helps to cool the upstairs off here too.


Post# 999445 , Reply# 8   7/5/2018 at 19:48 by washman (Butler, PA)        
Back in the day

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in our mobile home in Indiana we had a 220v Amana up front and a 8500 BTU Fedders in parents room. I got by with a Lakewood box fan!

 

Both units ran admirably and both were bought new and neither needed repair in the years we had them.

 


Can't comment on window units today other than they are all China sourced and probably built to the lowest possible levels of quality.


Post# 999446 , Reply# 9   7/5/2018 at 19:51 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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a typical CL ad.....

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yogitunes's LINK on Southjersey Craigslist


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Post# 999467 , Reply# 10   7/5/2018 at 21:49 by superocd (PNW)        

I almost considered getting a window AC for the bedroom to avoid having to run our central AC overnight, but my wife wouldn't like the noise or aesthetics and the quality (or lack thereof) of window ACs available today is just sad. It would probably be more cost effective to just run the central AC if it is newer and efficient and installed in a modern home, because I don't think you'd be able to get more than three summers out of any window unit today. If you spend ~$200 every three years to replace the broken unit plus the cost to run it, I think the cost to run a decently efficient central AC for a modestly sized newer home would be about the same, so I opted just to go down this route.

I was just talking about Styrofoam evap chambers in another thread. The condenser fan blades all look like they were manufactured for $15 desk fans, the only difference is that there is a slinger ring plastiwelded on the outer edge. The squirrel cage evap fans are just as cheap. These components used to be made out of relatively heavy-gauge aluminum or steel. I remember because I took a few window units apart as a kid. None of the condensers are protected behind louvers like the older units so the fins bend easily. Sometimes the manufacturer will make a pathetic attempt at "protecting" the condenser with a wire grate.

I feel sorry for anyone still installing wall units, because in most cases, the sleeves are manufacturer specific and vary widely in dimension. If and when the unit dies, it may dictate having to reframe the cutout for the replacement unit. In any case, I think a good PTAC would be better option (Carrier, Friedrich, LG, Amana).


Post# 999472 , Reply# 11   7/6/2018 at 02:26 by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
As with everything else

If you can find one from the 50s or 60s , they are worlds better than the new stuff, MUCH colder, normally quieter and well built of METAL!

Post# 999482 , Reply# 12   7/6/2018 at 07:28 by Jmm63 (Denville, NJ)        

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I would love to have central a/c, its on "the list",and when I have an extra $10,000 i will do it, meanwhile i live with window units.

They aren't vintage,at least 10+ tears old, but happy with 3 of the 4 I have.

Sharp 8k is about 14 and one of the first energy star units. Not "library quiet ", but does a good job. Haeir 6k in bedroom is super quiet and I bought it used for $50 ten years ago. Hampton bay 6k unit in guest room is ok, I don't put that one in until the last minute because it's the front of the house and I don't like to see one hanging out the front. It's small enough though.

The Frigidaire 8k I can't stand. Bought it a couple years ago, it so loud, ridiculously loud. Dont put it on high unless you have earplugs. It's relegated to the front of the house where it doesn't cause problems. Hoping an electrical storm takes it out.

Have a GE CARRY COOL in the garage for emergencies, or a give away.




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Post# 999576 , Reply# 13   7/6/2018 at 22:31 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        
Styrofoam evaporator chambers

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These do make them appear ridiculously cheesy, especially when the light shines through them as in picture #4 above. My little Frigidaire 5K BTU has this as well and I cringe every time I see it.

 

However...I only paid $110 for it at a end of summer 2013 clearance sale.

 

I was looking through some ads from the late 1970s and I saw that similar units were going for $99 at that time.  So...35 years later and same price, kind of astonishing really. 

 

It had a one-year full warranty and 5-year "sealed system" warranty...and I don't expect it will last long beyond that.  But for what I paid...cannot complain. 


Post# 999590 , Reply# 14   7/7/2018 at 06:18 by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Central air

is nice, but our house has no zone controls. Once the sun heats up the attic and walls, I have to bump it up from 76 f. to at least 77 or 78 so it isn't running constantly until the sun sets. Thermostat is in the center of the house.
It's always worked this way, since the 90's when newer also.
No doubt, more shade on the west side would help. We had a huge silver maple in the back yard until 1997. It had to go. It ruined our patio, as the roots go horizontlally. These are prohibited trees now.
I know it's best to set it ten degrees cooler than the outside temp., but when it's 90 or higher, how many units can keep a home 76 degrees? It's a 2.5 ton Bryant. Square footage is 1,500.


Post# 999675 , Reply# 15   7/8/2018 at 02:31 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Darryl and I bought one yesterday.

It's funny how i HATED the Kenmore brand and now I love it. My Kenmore Elite stove is AWESOME and the dishwasher (a Kenmore portable) actually does an amazing work cleaning the dishes in just 1 hour.

That beast is REALLY powerful and I'm impressed with its energy efficiency. The blower is really strong and it's not noisy.

Yesterday I was kinda pissed off with the smart app that wouldn't connect. This morning I decided to restart everything from scratch, unplugged the A/C for 5 minutes, uninstalled the app and then started everything again. It worked perfectly right on the first try. No mess, no fuss, even a child can setup the Wi-Fi features.

Now I'm looking forward to get a second A/C unit so my apartment will look like it has central A/C, as 12k BTU isn't enough for everything, but at least it's more comfortable.


Post# 999693 , Reply# 16   7/8/2018 at 09:25 by estesguy (kansas)        
Central air requirements...

A very crude rule of thumb is 1 ton of AC for every 500 sf. Of course this can change based on construction of the home, but its still is a good place to start. So at 1500 sf, you definitely could have used a 3 ton. I had a new home built in 1983, 1600 sf and the builder put in 2.5, probably to save money. It ran all the time when temps were in the mid to upper 90's. When a hail storm damaged it, I replaced it with a 3 ton. No problems after that.

Post# 999696 , Reply# 17   7/8/2018 at 09:45 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Have the offer of refurb built in air con

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Can any of you guys with HVAC let me know how hard it is to instal ? I have my house all done and sorted but the heat has become too much to bare and air con here tends to be mobile units you hang a pipe like a dryer out the window so its apparent I cannot use these as have silly tilt or turn windows you have a gap at the top or open the whole thing like a door Anyhoo what I really need to know is how hard it is to put these ceiling things in not concerned about the outside bit just do all the ceilings have to be opened up or is it a case of cutting a hole and pop the thing in???

Thank you

Austin


Post# 999741 , Reply# 18   7/8/2018 at 19:59 by Xraytech (S.W. Pennsylvania, near Pittsb)        

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I have a 1,400 sq ft Cape Cod built in 1946
I have a 1995 Comfortmaker central a/c unit that takes care of the main floor(about 1,000 sq ft.) all the rooms stay cool, except the living room is warmer, most likely due to my sectional sofa blocks 2 of the 3 registers.

Sadly there is no a/c in the second story bedroom, it gets incredibly hot so I have to relocate to downstairs for the warm months.

I had tried a window a/c, but it was about useles, as the room is 10’ x 36’ with a window at each end. I won’t put a unit in the front window as it looks bad from the road, and the other window is at top of steps so all it does is cool the stairwell.

I decided to keep the 6,500 btu GE unit around as a backup due to the age of my central a/c.
Came in handy about 3-4 weeks ago when my unit was low on R-22 and froze up. That 6500 btu window unit kept the living room cool, and a properly positioned fan cooled the front bedroom and bathroom.


Post# 999767 , Reply# 19   7/9/2018 at 02:44 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

I'd trust split type.

In Brazil they're quite popular, because installation is much easier than "through the wall" air conditioners, they are much more efficient (I mean, really much more) and the noise is also nearly zero (you can hear the air, but not the motor).

Central A/C has the hassle and the space lost with ducts, blus the PITA of having to cool the whole house (it makes no sense at all).
Ok, some central A1Cs allow closing the registrers, but you nearly always have the full power being used for only one or two rooms and the air is almost always pushed to the room where the thermostat is in most installations. Not exactly efficient.

Also, you have the whole house depending on only one system. If it fails, the whole house will be hot. If you have to replace it, it's F-word expensive because it's ONE huge unit for the whole house.

With split type air conditioners, you have several smaller units, one for each room.

Installation is cheaper as you don't need to buy them all at once, you can plan ahead and even finace one unit at a time. The installation itself usually takes no longer than 1.5 hours.

If something goes wrong and one unit stops working, you still have the rest of the house. You can keep the doors open and use the other units to compensate the out of order unit, or simply ignore that room, close the door and you have other rooms comfortable.

Now the electricity savings is the most attractive feature. Why cool the whole house if you're alone sleeping in the bedroom? Just turn off the other units, close the bedroom door, show the middle finger to the rest of the house that will be freaking hot and keep only your bedroom comfortably cold.

If you want to cool the whole house, ok, no problem, just turn all the units on. Even doing that the energy consumption will be less than a single central unit because you're not pushing air through several feet of ducts.

Other factor is the air quality. How clean are the ducts in a central A/C? With ductless split type systems, each unit has it's own filter and the air stays in the same room.

No more A/C pushing the bacon grease from the kitchen to the master bedroom.

And as the systems are fully independent, there is also the comfort factor. No more fighting because of the thermostat. If one person wants to sleep at 32F and wake up like a popsicle and the other wants to sleep at 600F, and wake up "self cleaned" just like an oven, who cares? each room has it's own independent system.



Post# 999774 , Reply# 20   7/9/2018 at 07:26 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
"always a good idea to buy a BTU rating for your space with a little bit of overkill.... "

That is interesting since have always been told and or researched the opposite; that something slightly smaller is better than larger when it comes to air conditioning.

Rationale being that an oversized unit will cycle off sooner than it should thus not remove moisture from air to make things comfortable.

Not exactly same, but during past heat wave noticed that if set the WallMaster to 72F or 73F it cooled things nicely and didn't cycle on and off much. OTOH if thermostat was set to 75F the thing cycled constantly to point of being annoying.

Since everyone is going on about split AC:










CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 999775 , Reply# 21   7/9/2018 at 07:27 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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That's what I've always heard too Launderess.


Post# 999791 , Reply# 22   7/9/2018 at 10:00 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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I know of several people around here that have installed them and all have said how well they work and save energy dollars. One other nice thing is that in the winter they reverse and can draw heat out of the outside air up to -10 degrees before the electric resistance kicks on.

Post# 999795 , Reply# 23   7/9/2018 at 10:36 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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removal of moisture from the air is one thing, sucking the water out of the plants, aquarium, and causing dry skin is going a bit too far....

going a thousand or two larger for window units is not a bad idea, I can always dial down the thermostat versus a unit running constantly to keep up....

this is just my personal preference, you know me, size matters.....I used to run 4 units, kitchen and living room 2-10,000 and 2 bedrooms 2-5,000....and a 200.00+ electric bill to go with it....

I switched to one 30,000 unit in the dining room, which covers the whole area now, speed on Med, and temp set at 4......very comfortable, cycles on when needed, and a super low electric bill.....


this unit is climbing on 22 years old, I cringe at the day it gives up on me, as I wont find another one like it.....everyone who sees it wants one....I also guess what works with a unit of this size is an open floor plan.....you can appreciate its power with a house full of people, or when you fire up the stove, adjust the dial, and it will chill down quickly...


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Post# 999820 , Reply# 24   7/9/2018 at 13:17 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        
Yogitunes

Those Whirlpools are fantastic.

But the new Kenmore Elite smart A/C, miraculously, are even better.

I'm not 100% sure, but I strongly believe they're made by LG. The design is too "LGesque".

The fan is almost as powerful as one of those floor dryers.


Post# 999827 , Reply# 25   7/9/2018 at 14:42 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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The biggest Kenmore air conditioner is 12,000 as far as I can see on the Sears website. You surely don't want to compare that with that 30,000 BTU one Martin has?

Post# 999833 , Reply# 26   7/9/2018 at 16:20 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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that's the sad part there with Sears.....they slap their name on just about anything now....

back in the 80's when I got the Kenmore's, they were built by Whirlpool, but like all Kenmores, to Sears own specifications, somewhat a better look, seriously quieter fans, and extra features you wouldn't find on the Whirlpool counterpart...


just thinking of the plug I have to run this...250V-30amp...comparable to a dryers plug...


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Post# 999834 , Reply# 27   7/9/2018 at 16:21 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
That is just Kenmore

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Other brands offer room air conditioners (through wall or window) up to 30,000 btu of cooling power.

www.friedrich.com/product...

As mentioned previously, Friedrich offers a "unifit" model of through wall AC designed to work with any existing sleeve.

www.friedrich.com/product...

Found this interesting; Friedrich no longer has a WallMaster units at 10,000 btu on 115v. One can have 9800 btu or 1200 btu on that voltage, but the 10,000 to 9,900 unit now is 220v only.

www.friedrich.com/product...

@Louis:

Kenmore does seem to offer larger window AC in 25,000 and 18,000 btu; but those are 220v units. www.kenmore.com/products/...


Post# 999841 , Reply# 28   7/9/2018 at 16:52 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Yes, I have seen those, but Martin’s is a through the wall airconditioner so we have to take that into account, otherwise we are comparing apples and pears.

Post# 999844 , Reply# 29   7/9/2018 at 17:07 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
@Louis

launderess's profile picture
True, but since Kenmore is nothing more than a brand name Sears slaps on things made by others, a true "apples to apples" comparison would have to be made by looking at full product line of whoever produces these ACs.

It might very well be that company in question does offer through wall units with btu power greater than 12000, but Sears for reasons of their own doesn't bother.


Post# 999887 , Reply# 30   7/10/2018 at 03:54 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

Today I confirmed..

Kenmore A/Cs are made by LG.

They have up to 15.000 BTU 110V and up to 25.000 BTU 220V

All of them "window type"

Anyway, I'm not sure if I'd want one big unit. I'd prefer to split the capacity in two smaller units to add use flexibility and if one fails, at least I still have 50% of the cooling power.


Post# 999901 , Reply# 31   7/10/2018 at 08:05 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
mine is a window/wall unit.....I had to leave off the side curtains to fit the window opening....


the unit has two screws at the bottom that lock it in place, plus its screwed in from the sides to keep it secure in the window.....

there have been cases of gaining entrance into a home from thieves by sliding a screwdriver underneath, and pushing the unit into the home...


Post# 999966 , Reply# 32   7/10/2018 at 23:40 by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
I've had our current Mitubishi mini split since I think 2010 or was it 2011. .. anyways,, the filtering system on it is crap.. most of the air goes around and behind those flexible thin filter things and then sticks on the blades of the squirell cage fan, which in turn gets bogged down and has required disassembly every 2 years, at a cost. It's currently not working and the repairman is coming in the morning.. I won't be buying another Mitsubishi mini split again unless they redesign the whole filter system.


Post# 1000017 , Reply# 33   7/11/2018 at 14:02 by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Austin... what kind of central ac system is it you're talking about? Over here central air generally refers to a fan forced ducted furnace/air conditioner where the evaporator is in the furnace and the condenser unit sits outside. There are ductless mini split systems available with ceiling cassettes but they're much less common right now. More common is just the straight forward mini split unit set up on the wall high up,, perhaps two or 3 of those depending on the size of the house etc They all need to be wired and and the coolant tubes plumbed to the outside condenser as well as having a drain tube

Post# 1000018 , Reply# 34   7/11/2018 at 14:07 by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
AC guys showed up this a.m. and as suspected my Freon was low... so he's put in some dye and charged it up and we'll see what happens over the course of the next week or so,, if not sooner. Days I wished we just had a regular forced air furnace and air conditioner... this thing is hundreds of dollaring me to death every couple of years.. :(

Post# 1000036 , Reply# 35   7/11/2018 at 16:36 by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        

The church I belong to has 4 of the Mitsubishi mini-split units; they were installed 3 or 4 years ago, and they've had problems with a couple of them. I think they are all functional now.

Post# 1000041 , Reply# 36   7/11/2018 at 17:35 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@petek

ozzie908's profile picture
I believe its the split system with the fans in the ceiling I am just so looking forward to being cooler I cannot handle the slightest increase in temperature these days.

Austin


Post# 1000051 , Reply# 37   7/11/2018 at 19:52 by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

countryguy's profile picture
Pete,

I've had a Climataire split system in the bedroom for 10 years and touch wood....never had a problem with it. I do clean the filters every season and I did have the service guy out to check it over a couple of years ago. Last summer I had a Carriere split system installed in the living area. I've only used it a handful of times so not sure what its reliability is going to be. It did come with a 5 year warranty.

Gary


Post# 1000069 , Reply# 38   7/12/2018 at 00:19 by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
Some good friends of my Parents

Had a huge Coldspot window unit, 28000 btu, I never saw it turned over halfway on the thermostat and the fan was always on low and their house was always cold!it lasted almost 40 years and the compressor died, I think lightning got it.

Post# 1000074 , Reply# 39   7/12/2018 at 05:35 by retro-man (nashua,nh)        

I remember back in high school going to a friends house and her parents had a huge Sears window A/C. It had a separate dial for humidity setting along with the cooling dial. I believe it was a 220v. Had never seen this before or since. Anyone ever come across one of these?

Jon


Post# 1000095 , Reply# 40   7/12/2018 at 09:35 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Air conditioninig article from Washington Post

This makes it sound like there will be a resurgence in domestic AC manufacturing:

 

 

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Republicans can't agree on this climate deal brokered by Obama

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BY DINO GRANDONI

with Paulina Firozi

THE LIGHTBULB

(iStock)

(iStock)

Republicans are happy to see the Trump administration do away with most of the climate policies of the previous president — or at least try to. But conservative politicians and activists are deeply divided over whether to cement into law a hard-fought international agreement on a set of little-known greenhouse gases.

The tiff concerns a multilateral effort to phase out hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs. That class of organic compounds, which are used in but also leak from air conditioners, pose a duel threat to the planet: They erode Earth's protective ozone layer and amplify the greenhouse effect.

In President Barack Obama's final full year in office, his administration negotiated an amendment to the landmark Montreal Protocol attempting to curtail their use. But conservatives are divided about whether they should ratify the changes to the treaty now that they are in charge.

On the one side of the debate is much of the U.S. cooling industry, which supports what is called the Kigali Amendment, after the Rwandan city in which it was negotiated.

Domestic manufacturers want to make sure they are not shut out of the international market for the next generation of air conditioners as millions in sweltering nations in Asia, Africa and South America rise from poverty to buy cooling systems (all while temperatures climb, too).

Even the tea party-aligned group FreedomWorks touted the job-creating potential of the amendment in a letter last month. And for once, environmentalists and manufacturers are largely on the same page regarding a climate treaty.

“That’s not particularly common,” said Francis Dietz, spokesman for the Air-Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute (AHRI), an industry group.

On the other side are strident critics of climate-change science and mitigation efforts who do not want to see the ozone-layer treaty being used to fight climate change.

The latest firework occurred last week when the leaders of two dozen conservative groups wrote to President Trump pleading with him to reject the amendment.

“The Kigali Amendment would not advance the purpose of the Montreal Protocol,” said the letter, organized by the Competitive Enterprise Institute, “but would instead turn a treaty aimed at saving the ozone layer into a global-warming treaty.”

The amendment, like all treaties, must be submitted by the president to the Senate for approval. A two-thirds supermajority in the upper chamber must ratify it to become law.

But the HFC provision has a decent chance of meeting that high margin even in the GOP-controlled chamber. Already 13 Senate Republicans, ranging from moderates such as Susan Collins (Maine) to solid conservatives such as Tim Scott (S.C.), urged Trump in a letter to send them the treaty amendment.

In a sign of the political times, the senators' letter to Trump does not once mention the phrases “climate change” or “global warming.”

Instead, the senators focus on potential job losses to China should the United States fail to ratify. GOP Sen. John Kennedy, whose state of Louisiana is home to Honeywell and Mexichem Fluor factories involved in refrigerant manufacturing, led the petition to Trump.

“By sending this amendment to the Senate, you will help secure America’s place as the global leader in several manufacturing industries, and in turn give American workers an advantage against their competitors in the international marketplace,” the senators said.

But the Trump administration has for months delayed making a decision on whether to send the treaty to the Senate. In February, White House energy and climate adviser George David Banks said the Trump administration wanted “really good economic information” before coming to a decision on Kigali.

So AHRI hired consultants to interview companies and model the impact of the amendment. In a report published in April, the industry association projected ratifying Kigali would create an additional 33,000 jobs by 2027.

“The White House staff asked us to provide information on the jobs and trade benefits of Kigali ratification,” said Kevin Fay, head of the government affairs firm Alcalde & Fay. “We believe the strong economic analysis speaks for itself.”

But Trump still has yet to act.

Banks, who left the White House this year and says he supports ratifying Kigali “150 percent,” said there were still concerns among some members of the Trump administration over the cost to consumers of transitioning away from HFCs.

The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank that has proven to be influential in the Trump White House and that opposes expanding the scope of the Montreal Protocol to address climate change, issued its own counter-report arguing that phasing down HFCs would “impose substantial costs on American families” through higher air-conditioning and refrigerator prices.

“I would add that nothing is preventing businesses or families from switching,” said Nick Loris, a energy and environmental policy analyst at Heritage. “If they are cost-competitive, the market will make that transition.”

In response, the air-conditioning industry says cooling chemicals constitute a small fraction of the cost of new equipment and that, like with flat-screen televisions, that expense is falling over time.

Given the blue-collar factory jobs at stake, Banks says he is “bullish” on Trump supporting Kigali.

“The president is not going to trade away a portion of the U.S. manufacturing base just so consumers can save a little in the short term,” Banks said.

With the midterm elections approaching and a Supreme Court nomination on the docket, time is quickly evaporating for senators to approve the amendment this year if Trump sent it to them.

But refrigerant manufacturers say time is on their side. The United States could face trade restrictions beginning in the 2030s if the United States does not agree to the provision.

With or without U.S. backing, enough nations have signed the amendment for it to go into force next year.

 

 

 

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POWER PLAYS


Post# 1000100 , Reply# 41   7/12/2018 at 10:55 by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
We all know

how Don Wan(a) thinks about the Post also.

Post# 1000146 , Reply# 42   7/12/2018 at 23:07 by Dustin92 (Jackson, MI)        

We have a 1998 7800 btu Panasonic in the living room, and absolutely love it. Super quiet and ice cold. A 5100 Btu 1997 Hampton Bay (Fedders) in my room. Ice cold and typically very quiet, but the fan motor started squeaking tonight, will dig in tomorrow and see if it can be oiled, would hate to have to replace it! And, a 5100 Btu SoleusAir (new this summer) that is not as cold, and louder than the other two combined, and gives new meaning to the term "window shaker", no, wall/house shaker! Not at all happy with it! Hopefully mine can be fixed or I may end up with one of those!

Post# 1000152 , Reply# 43   7/13/2018 at 02:08 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

I don't want to hijack this thread, but i now have a question.

the 12k btu Kenmore elite window A/C i mentioned above is installed in the living room, but I'm seriously thinking about moving it to my bedroom.

However, the living room has security bars (apartment is on 2nd floor, but the window is right above the stairs) and my bedroom doesn't.

When I installed it, i didn't screw it on the window sash because i don't want to drill three tiny holes and then end up with a landlord making me pay to replace the window after I move out. (we never know, right?)

The A/C seems to be safe even without the screws and outside, less than 1/4 of na inch below it there are the security bars (a "box" as they were made thinking of leaving space for an A/C) so, if something goes wrong and the A/C falls outside, the super sturdy bar will hold it in place.

Now in my bedroom there are no bars.

Is there any way to make a safe installation WITHOUT drilling? If the A/C falls, it won't only destroy the A/C, but it will fall right on Darryl's car that is usually parked right under the window.

Other thing i noticed. The compressor is in a strange position, near the front of the unit. As a designer, I immediatelly guessed it is to make the front much heavier (most of the weight right on the sash) and there are also concrete counterweights on the front.

Other thing to consider. This is California, we have great wines, great weather but somethines things get a little, let's say, "agitated" here.


Post# 1000231 , Reply# 44   7/13/2018 at 20:24 by simpsomatic (Melb, Aust-now Palm Springs,US)        
Mr. Slim

For all of the hundreds and thousands of mini-split air conditioning units out there all over the world the operational pitfalls are not unique to any one brand. A company in Australia has developed an ingenious service system for these units that eradicates the micron dust particles that collect on the cooling coils, the gunk that sticks to the barrel fan and most importantly the mold and mildew that thrives in the inner sanctums of these units. Watch the video, you will be truly amazed.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO simpsomatic's LINK


Post# 1000278 , Reply# 45   7/14/2018 at 13:16 by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
Geeze I wish they had that service here. I'm going to forward it to the company I use..

Post# 1000712 , Reply# 46   7/18/2018 at 22:38 by Dustin92 (Jackson, MI)        

Well, sounds like my bedroom unit is on borrowed time.. Managed to get rid of the squeaking/squealing but now it rattles. Plus the coils are pretty corroded, likely from a mistake years ago when it had a bad case of black mildew... Soaked the whole thing down inside and out with straight clorox, then hosed it out. I didn't realize at the time that bleach is corrosive to aluminum... But it's still chugging along, even though it's a little worse for the wear. Will hate to see it go but will probably replace it next year.




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