Thread Number: 10159
Would Top Loading Washers With Heaters Sell In The US
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Post# 187148   1/29/2007 at 18:26 (4,619 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Increasing government regulations are forcing top loading washers from the American market, however much of those regulations could be side stepped by using a washing machine with a built in heater as that would lessen the drain on hot water supplies. Does anyone think a 220v/60hz top loader would sell enough units to interest American appliance makers? The technology is readily available as such machines already exisist elsewhere in the world. The only problem is getting Amercians to "adapt" to using 220v power, as 110v/120v seems too puny a voltage to heat or even boost water temps in any reasonable amount of time.

L.


Post# 187149 , Reply# 1   1/29/2007 at 18:29 (4,619 days old) by lavamat_jon (-)        

I would imagine, though, that heating a full tub of water will use a lot more energy than it might already do to heat it outside the toploader. The small amount of water in a frontloader can be heated economically but in a toploader with the larger mass of water I would imagine the economy would just go straight out the window.

Sounds, and is, a great idea though. Hotpoint toploader machines here were proof that this technology works and is desirable.

Jon


Post# 187152 , Reply# 2   1/29/2007 at 18:48 (4,619 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        
Hey Laundress

and while we are at it lets put 4 sleeves/ for bolts in the slabs of the laundry rooms and bolt em down, and get rid of all that goofy stop and tumble distribution prior to spin. When my last T/L died i got another T/L. the posts about the extra time to distribute and balance made me leary of em. If we are going to go Pro Line with all this home equipment, Lets make is SO. Does not seem too much to ask in a new house, with the cost of a home nowdays.

Post# 187154 , Reply# 3   1/29/2007 at 18:55 (4,619 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        
oops Laundress

didnt mean to hijack your T/L post, I meant if some new thinking came along with home builders, it just might make many Really consider the F/L. I like your 220v idea alot.

Post# 187232 , Reply# 4   1/29/2007 at 21:35 (4,619 days old) by oxydolfan1 ()        

Yes.

I'd also love to see them used with TL dryers in bathrooms.

I've always wanted a bathroom with a Euro-style, H-axis washer next to a pair of French doors that opens out onto a balcony...


Post# 187248 , Reply# 5   1/29/2007 at 22:18 (4,619 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

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~110v/120v seems too puny a voltage to heat or even boost water temps in any reasonable amount of time.

Do you mean that the voltage does not appear to practically and easily suppport/allow the necessary (high) wattage? Any wattage needed can technically be run on any voltage. It's the practical matter of the wire gauge (thickness) needed at the specified [especially lower]voltage.


Post# 187269 , Reply# 6   1/29/2007 at 22:34 (4,619 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

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I am sure the die-hard T/L-er lovers will do anything to be able to get a supply of these.
Methinks there will be some demand, but not enough to get mannies hopeful.

So back to another age-old queston of mine that remains unanswered. Will top-loader STILL be avaialble in Canada and Mexico? Just becuase they one day won't be able to be SOLD here doen't mean you can't USE them here.

ANyway according to your post. Lady L., there may be a loop-hole in the law. Methinks mannies won't take a chance on T/L-ers when Uncle Sam can wipe then out with one stroke of the pen, upon re-write of law.

If the gov't looks at hot water draw (water heated outside the machine) and not electrical draw (used to make hot water in a machine) then they are hoplessly riduculous. They will figure it our one day. I am guessing they may not have considered this in that we rarely currently see domestically-made machines in the US that heat their own water.


Post# 187295 , Reply# 7   1/29/2007 at 23:12 (4,619 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
2400Watts

Takes about 60 minutes to heat 1 TL full of water to 60degC from 18degC

In Australia, thats easy, as a standard appliance is 240V 10AMP on a 20AMP circuit.

In the US that would require a dedicated 110V 20AMP circuit.

The efficiency advantage of the internal heating element in a TL, is if your day rate electricity is cheaper than the fuel used to heat your hotwater tank.

The main reason they were available in AU, was that most houses didnt have a supply of hotwater available in the laundry or wash house. There was cold water, and it had previously been heated in a copper. To save on Plumbing costs, or having to install a large storage tank, it was cheaper to build a heater into the washing machine.

An element in a HE toploader would allow the water temp to remain constant or be boosted as part of a soak cycle, however you'd still then start to have really long wash times.


Post# 187297 , Reply# 8   1/29/2007 at 23:17 (4,619 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

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~In the US that would require a dedicated 110V 20AMP circuit.

2400 watts / 120 volts = 20 amps. So it would require a LARGER amperage line in that we may only use 80% of the rated capactiy on a line.

20a @ 80% = 16a MAX appliance on a 20a line. :-)

The next size we typically see here is 30a.


Post# 187300 , Reply# 9   1/29/2007 at 23:24 (4,619 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

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~if your day rate electricity is cheaper than the fuel used to heat your hotwater.

1- I know of VERY few day (penalty) and night (gift) rate RESIDENTIAL customers here.

2- In my opinion most areas of this country have less expensive fossil fuel costs as compared to elecricity for heating. Hydro-electric areas (like Seatle, WA *waves* to Dan and Kelly) of course that is probably reversed.

3- In my city and the suburbs the LANDLORD pays for hot water.

The heater in the machine still sits funny with me. :-)



Post# 187310 , Reply# 10   1/29/2007 at 23:38 (4,619 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Our house has the following Circuits

3 x 20amp 240v for General use Circuits
1 x 20amp 240v for the Fridge
1 x 32amp 240v for the Cooktop and Wall oven
2 x 16amp 240v for lighting
1 x 20amp 240v for hotwater

Each floor in the house has a general use circuit, 1 of the lighting is for the top floor, and the other is for the garage and living area. All circuits except the cooktop and hotwater are ELCB. This is all provided through an 80amp service.

Its unheard of to have a tripped breaker due to load, it usually only occurs in a fault situation.

Our circuit breakers and wiring (Correct me if I'm wrong other Aussies) are designed to run at 100% of the rated circuit for 2 hours. I can run the following on my kitchen and living area circuit and have never had an issue:

2400w kettle, 1600w microwave, 2400w Miele Washer, Dishwasher, 2400w toaster, 2200w Iron, and 2000w Garbage disposal. The AC and TV are also on this circuit, the AC is rated at 8.6kw Output on 13amps input.

Now if all of these devices happened to start simultaneously and all hit maximum current draw at once, then were would be a problem. However in the 5 years I've lived there, its never been an issue.


Post# 187318 , Reply# 11   1/29/2007 at 23:54 (4,619 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

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Gosh, Launderess, every time I suggest that we need a 220 60 Hz volt big front load washer for the US market, you shoot the idea down. A 220 volt top loader, which would require heating at least twice as much water (and probably four times as much) would be even a less likely development, IMHO.

I have labored under the impression that Maytag, at one point, was going to market a high end version of their Neptune TL that had an internal heater and a touch screen ala the 7500. Perhaps I was dreaming that, but I seem to remember even seeing pics and a model number. But I've never seen an actual example and of course now the TL is discontinued altogether. And of course the heated TL would have been 110 volts, but since it was an HE model perhaps that was enough to boost and maintain water temps.

Personally, what with impending energy standards looming, I don't think a deep water top loader with an internal heater will be made in the USA. It might even be against the law. Perhaps there will be an HE TL, like the Harmony or Oasis, that will have an internal water heater. But I will submit to your prior wisdom on such matters, and predict that these would be 110 volt 15 amp only.



Post# 187330 , Reply# 12   1/30/2007 at 00:57 (4,618 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Sudsmaster, sorry if one gave the impression of "shooting down" 220v washers in your posts, never was my intention. Merely pointed out that Americans seemed as a group to have rejected Miele's approach which married a very expensive 220v washer that had rather a small capacity for what those in the states are used to.

The idea for my post came from seeing the Westinghouse top loader in Oz, posted my another member. As it seems the government regulations in the States are mainly concerned with the energy used to heat water, as well as total amout of water used, savings could be gained for top loaders if a way could found to make them heat/boost water on their own.

Extraordinary temps would not be required, IMHO since Americans mainly use LCB for whitening/santitising, but say a machine able to take warm water (100F) and boost to 120F or 140F.


Post# 187335 , Reply# 13   1/30/2007 at 01:57 (4,618 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

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Yes, Ls, but my whole point all along is that the jumbo size front loaders that Americans are so enamored of these days are crying out for 220 volt connections to enable them to actually heat water in a timely manner. The 1,000 watt heater in my Neptune manages to lift the temp about 1F/min. That would mean taking water from 100F to 130F would take 30 minutes - and that is the length of cycle that most Americans are used to experiencing for the entire washload from start to finish. A 220 connection would cut that heating time in half, to 15 minutes, and that probably would be something people could live with.

My solution for all this is to do a warm rinse/spin with STPP for very dirty or stained loads. That is actually tempered to about 80F. Then I follow that with a hot cycle - by that time the water line has been purged and the hot comes in pretty hot - just under 120 in the sump in the winter. Then the heater kicks in and does the rest.

As I recall, a traditional top loader uses anywhere from 15 to 25 gallons of water for just the wash water. That's three to five times more water to heat than even the relatively high water level Neptune. I can't see even a 220 volt internal heater doing that in anything approaching the 30 minute cycle time that Americans are used to.


Post# 187365 , Reply# 14   1/30/2007 at 08:17 (4,618 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Talking about wash times..

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I have a Bosch with the internal heater. I don't know nothing bout no watts or amps. But I do know it's plugged into a 220 line. It takes about 1 1/2 hours to do a load using my high temp option which heats the water to 161 degrees. I typically start with cold water and let it heat the water all the way.

It is so funny when my partner's sister comes to visit and brings laundry. All she does it bitch and whine about how long it takes to do a couple loads of clothes. I do a load a day or so, so I really don't notice it. She is used to saving it all and doing it all in one day and she's used to a wash time of about 30 minutes. I guess that's the difference between how we traditionally have done laundry compared to how people in other countris do it. We save it up to do it in one day and they typically do a load or so a day. At least that's what I'm told.


Post# 187374 , Reply# 15   1/30/2007 at 09:15 (4,618 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

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Whirlpool(also Kenmore)and GE all have heaters in their top loading washers.The GE Harmony has it as well as a see through window on the door.Whirlpool's new Cabrio and the Sears Kenmore Oasis also have built in heaters.The heaters are there to boost the hot water temperature up to about 170F degrees.

Post# 187376 , Reply# 16   1/30/2007 at 09:24 (4,618 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
sudsmaster

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Yes, the TOL Maytag Neptune TL did have an internal heater. There was an option called "Auto Temp".

Excerpt from the manual: "“Auto Temp” – Uses an internal heater to provide the best water temperature and wash results. The cycle time may be extended while the washer heats the water. While heating, the washer will not tumble."

This machine also had a touch screen.

Someone else posted a while ago about his GE Harmony with internal heater. IIRC the Super Wash cycle heats to 140°F and takes approx. 3 hours.

Alex





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