Thread Number: 1041
HELP-KENMORE EXPERTS-Free at last, but-------- 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 54119   1/21/2005 at 11:08 (7,033 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

I have gotten the inner basket out of my 1959 Kenmore. I ended up taking a welders torch to the flare of the spin column, while alternating a spray of WD-40, and then quickly jumping up and down INSIDE the tub! Hey, whatever it takes. Anyway, I was shocked upon removal of the spin basket to find the center post of the outer tub flaked with BIG chunks of rust. I got busy with a wire brush and cleared the area of most of it and vacuumed it away for a better look. I am not seeing any pin holes in the center post, however where the center post meets the center post gasket at the bottom the rust continues out of sight underneath the gasket. ALSO, of the four bolts holding the outer tub onto the platform, two of them showed rust. The one at the 9:30 O'clock position was the worst the next worst was at the 12:30 O'clock. In both of these cases the little rubber washers underneath the bolts are showing rot. The area around the suds-return drain (on the side wall of the tub) looks alright. The area around the tube for the water level sensing looks alright. The area around the sump opening at the bottom of the tub LOOKS alright, however there is a plastic "wing" on it (water deflector?) that might obscure a problem unless removed. and it is not lost on me that the tub to pump hose COULD have a leak in it (however, when I recently changed to pump out for a new one I inspected those hoses and they seem fine), BUT the leak I am chasing is dripping water on the platform on or about the 7 o'clock position.(Or it could be like a leaky roof and is comming from the centerpost gasket and is running down to the 7 O'clock position before dripping off of the platform!) There is evidence of rust build up over time in this area. Now it does not escape me that both the drain for the suds-saver, AND the sump to the pump are both in this area. So here are my questions regarding the problem of the leak. 1. Should the outer tub be scrapped altogether? If not, Should I attempt to remove the outer tub to replace the old washers around the four attachment bolts, AND/ OR the center post gasket? Or can I simply coat these areas with a heavy layer of Hi-Temp (Automotive) Silicone Liquid Gasket to seal them? How do I put a stop to what seems to me as a potentially catastrophic rusting of the outer tub center post? Is there some kind of rust-o-leum product I can paint it with? I will go into a holding pattern for a while to give everyone kind enough to respond to accumulate a bank of information. AS ALWAYS I am most GRATEFUL for ALL of you and your kind advice!!! -Steve




Post# 54127 , Reply# 1   1/21/2005 at 15:49 (7,033 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

unimatic1140's profile picture
Should the outer tub be scrapped altogether? If not, Should I attempt to remove the outer tub to replace the old washers around the four attachment bolts, AND/ OR the center post gasket?

Hi Steve, congrats on getting over your biggest hurdle, removing that #@&^%! spin basket. That is a pain, to say the least, in vintage WP/Kenmore washers, some brands are easier than others and the Whirlpool design is one of the worst for having stuck baskets. The big difference between repairing and restoration is with a repair you are simply trying to make the machine work again with minimal effort. With a restoration you are taking the time to prevent future problems, such as a new leak under a different bolt or seal six months from now. This allows you to use the washer quite often without having to go back in (hopefully) and do more work. Anyway, here is what I would do…

No don’t scrap the outer tub. Do pull it and replace the rubber washers (available at a hardware store) under the bolts that hold the outer tub down to the baseplate.

Most likely the leak is coming from the center post seal which is relatively common. Since it’s a 1959 model it should have the later rubber molded seal. These are still available from Whirlpool so you should have no problem getting one. When you install the new seal be sure to liberally coat the inside (side that faces the centerpost) with silicone to help seal around the rusted centerpost.

As for the rusted centerpost itself, every one of these centerposts I have seen has been rusted. The bolt down Kenmore washer I had was so badly rusted that I scrapped the machine. The others I’ve always just left them alone, but I suppose you could sand it down and paint it with two part epoxy paint available at high end paint stores.

Post# 54128 , Reply# 2   1/21/2005 at 15:51 (7,033 days old) by SactoTeddyBear ()        
Re: Congrats on start of success towards Repairs:

 Hey! Steve, Congrats on getting the Basket out finally. Some of the other Guy's that have Re-Painted Tubs before would know about what special Paint that you could Re-Paint the Outer Tub with. It's going to take time, naturally to do all of this, but it will be well worth it, to get the Washer operating again. At least an attempt I feel should be done on the Tub, before scrapping it. Do you know of any places where you can buy another Tub, if necessary, that will be the right size? There is some Liquid Solder, or the Liquid Gasket that can be used on the areas to seal the areas from Leaking. I would suggest getting the Tub Gaskets for around the Tub Anchor Screws and to replace the Seals also at the Sump, Side-Check Valve and any other opening areas, just to make sure about proper Seals. It's better being "save, then sorry" also with replacing the Hoses, since they certainly can become Brittle in time, epecially when these Washer's sit Idle for long periods of time. After doing these Repairs/Replacements, check the Washer out, in hopes that everything is all right, then go from there, as far as possibly needing to replace any other Gaskets, in Valves or the Pump, unless you are able to locate new Gaskets ahead of time, to replace them ahead of time. "Good-Luck" with your project and continued success of saving another Vintage Kenmore Washer.

Peace and Happiness, Steve "SactoTeddyBear"

Post# 54130 , Reply# 3   1/21/2005 at 16:11 (7,033 days old) by Goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions)        

goatfarmer's profile picture
I think Unimatic's got it. An outer tub might be kinda hard to find,and it probably will be in similar shape.Change whatever gaskets and seals you can get to now.That way if the leak is still present,you'll know where NOT to look.

kennyGF

Post# 54131 , Reply# 4   1/21/2005 at 16:53 (7,033 days old) by fixerman ()        

In reference to the 4 tub bolts and washers, a kit is available for problems when the bolt holes in the tub corrode. It has the bolts amd extra large rubber washers. Whirlpool Part no 76673.

I agree with Robert about the rusty spin shaft. Every one I have seen was rusty to some degree but I have successfully replaced the center seal on most every one without doing anything with the rusty tube except cleaning it off with emery cloth and making sure it is clean. Use a solvent to clean this area.

Post# 54134 , Reply# 5   1/21/2005 at 18:11 (7,033 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
Sounds like there is a consensus about what to do about the tub... If you do want to touch up the rusty spots, try this product I have linked, I used it on the 59 Frigidaire tub and it's amazing stuff! water can never penetrate it and it will adhere to anything without sanding!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO gansky1's LINK
Post# 54141 , Reply# 6   1/21/2005 at 19:36 (7,033 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

Thank you all so much for the excellent information. Since this is the first time I have torn down a Whirly/Kenmore I have a few more questions. It makes perfect sense to replace as many things as possible while I am in there so I have a question about the tub to pump hose. I have a 1955 "Frog-Eye" that needs that part replaced, so I went to Sears and they had the part or a least what they claim to be the replacement. I was told on this site that I would need to take out the outer tub to properly install the new hose because of a "flange". My question is this: Is the "Flange" a seperate piece that I fit onto the new hose (because the replacement hose does NOT have a flange) or should the new hose have a flange? I thought I had better figure this out before trying to replace the one on this '59 Kenmore. If I do go to replace it do I just take a screw driver and dig the tub outlet baffle loose? Then use hi-temp silicone gasket when re-installing it? Now what about the side check valve? It looks good to me, no evidence of leakage. Is this hard to replace? I can see by the picture in the "repair-master" what to do about the fill control hose (which also seems fine). Then is there any special trick to installing a center post tub gasket? To me it looks like it should just pop right on there. Those of you who have the Whirlpool/Kenmore Repair-Master, please see pages 88-89. This deals with a reccomended Spin Tube Bearing and AgitatorShaft Bearing Kit. Should I do this at this time? Any idea if the Shaft Bearing Driver tool is still out there? Somehow as a novice, I feel better about trying this procedure than removing the whole underside of the machine and replacing this the old way! What do yo think? -Steve

Post# 54142 , Reply# 7   1/21/2005 at 19:39 (7,033 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

Greg, thanks for the information on the "POR-15". That sounds perfect for the job. I Just wanted something to keep this rust from getting any worse and this stuff sounds like just the ticket! -Steve

Post# 54163 , Reply# 8   1/21/2005 at 22:29 (7,033 days old) by fixerman ()        

What does the new hose look like compared to the old one? If the old one was there of course. The diagrams in an old parts book shows several different outlet to pump hoses. If your model has the standard style pump, the two port or four port similar to the one in the one linked here? If so the book shows a flanged hose that has about an 80 degree bend in it. It shows the winged deflector that holds the hose in place. I don't see how the hose could be attached without a flange. It seems to me the last one I replaced (possibly 30 years ago)the hose may have simply been installed with the tub in place and pushed through the opening and the winged grommet secured and sealed it.

Yes, the baffle is simply pried out with a screwdriver.

The side check valve should be relatively easy to replace but if it is made of pot metal instead of the newer plastic one, corrosion may make it somewhat difficult to remove. If it is the old pot metal kind, there is a rubber ball inside that seals in one water flow directon and opens in the other direction. You can try blowing into the opening to see if it still seals.

What I usually do when installing a center saal is to clean the surfaces with emery cloth and solvent. Install the seal on the tub using a sealer. Let it dry because when installing they tend to slip out of the tub. Then put RTV on the inner seal surface and I also put the sealer around the top of the tube to act as a lubricant when pushing it into place.

About the spin tube bearing. It depends on what the spin tube looks like, If it is still good (Not likely) the agitator shaft bearing can be replaced but you probably want to just replace the entire spin tube which comes with the bearing already installed. I have replaced that bearing but it required me making pulling an installing tools. I have never seen a readily available installing tool for this.

Post# 54165 , Reply# 9   1/21/2005 at 22:44 (7,033 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

unimatic1140's profile picture
Steve, can you take and post a picture of this so called replacement hose? The rubber flange should be molded directly into the top of the hose, lets make sure you have the right part first.

Post# 54193 , Reply# 10   1/22/2005 at 08:14 (7,033 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        
Reply to Unimatic1140

 Robert, unfortnatly I do not have the capability (yet) to post those pictures. Here is what happened. The '55 Frog-Eye is a Model#553561. When I was cleaning out the underside of the machine, the back of by hand bumped the tub to pump hose and it just fell off! It is a formed piece of hose with simple compression clamps on both ends, the FSP number on it is 62731. I went to Sears parts web site and entered that FSP number and got a listing for a new one but the part number had been replaced with FSP #285871. It is a piece of that new type corrugated hose with two formed areas on each end (but no flange) and two worm-gear clamps. It looks like a reasonable replacement. (But I do not have a list of original parts numbers). Whether or not the hose that broke off is the original hose is up to speculation. It does not look like it would be that old and other areas of the hose ARE NOT BRITTLE AND ROTTEN! It can esily be pinched and manipulated without damage, so go figure. I can't wait to hear from you what the CORRECT part number should be for this, AND if the correct part can be obtained! As always, many thanks for your help. -Steve

Post# 54195 , Reply# 11   1/22/2005 at 08:28 (7,033 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        
Reply to Fixerman

 Sorry, I am reading the posts from bottom to top! I have not been to look lately but I would think that machine (the '55 Frog-Eye) would just have a two port pump. It is a BOL with a straight-vane agitator. Now the '59 Kenmore just got a new four port pump as it is a sud-saver model. The side check valve is plastic. The machine did not make a noise when spinning that would lead me to believe there is a bearing problem. From what you are saying it sounds like I had better leave well enough alone! Thankyou for the information on replacing the center post gasket. I will do exactly what you say. As for that tub to pump hose, I am convinced I got the wrong thing for the '55 Kenmore because I A. relied on the FSP number stamped on the hose that fell off, and B. because I do not have an old parts list for this type machine. I will listen out for advice on this situation. Again, thanks for yor help. Well, I'm off to "Georgedon's", will check back this afternoon to get the latest advice! -Steve

Post# 54234 , Reply# 12   1/22/2005 at 14:46 (7,032 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis)        

unimatic1140's profile picture
I have to look and see if I have one of those parts Steve for the 1959 Kenmore. If you type the model # into the sears web site does it give you the hose part #?

If it appears to be nice and pliable, I'm sure its fine and I wouldn't bother replacing it yet. As for the bearing, just like Fixerman said its quite a job and you do need special tools. See my 1957 Lady Kenmore restoration photos for pictures of the bearing tools and how to change them.

Post# 54285 , Reply# 13   1/23/2005 at 02:00 (7,032 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
hoses

 Big difference between the hoses for a '55 and a '59 KM. The '55 had a pump that engaged the belt ONLY when draining (no filtering system)whereas the pump on a '59 is ALWAYS spinning whenever the machine is running. Since the pump on the '55 physically moved, the hose to it had be designed to be flexible.

Post# 54290 , Reply# 14   1/23/2005 at 03:08 (7,032 days old) by fixerman ()        
Big difference

 I believe you are correct Kenmore78. That is why I asked what the pump looked like. The 55 would have the pump that moves to engage the belt so the tub to pump hose would not be like the one for the solid mounted pump. According to the old parts book I have, It shows a pump with two different tub to pump configurations. One has a pin catcher similar to the later models but this one is probably pot metal and attaches with metal plates and seals with four bolts or screws to hold it on. The bottom unscrews presumably to remove the pins or whatever got cought in it. The hose to the pump would be as you describe the replacement one, a clamp on each end. The other configuaration it shows is a hose with a flange like we were describing before. Does your machine have this pin catcher on it? If so, you probably have the correct part.

Post# 54339 , Reply# 15   1/23/2005 at 13:03 (7,031 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        
Reply to Fixerman, and Robert---

 On close inspection of the '55 Kenmore Frog-Eye (I am assuming it is a '55 because of the Model#55 3561), it appears the pump has been replaced on this machine, BUT I see no evidence of this pump moving to engage. It is bolted into place and appears as a typical pump being driven by a small pulley at the top. The belt that runs to it is streched tight and also goes to a large pulley. I also see no type of sump or other device for catching objects. The pump has two ports. The hose from tub to pump being of larger diameter than the hose to the drain. Do you have the part numbers for both hoses? I not only see evidence of rubber rot on what remains of both hoses but evidence of leakage around the area where the tub to pump hose meets the tub. So I need both hoses and would like to start from scratch in trying to replace them. As for the '59 Kenmore, that tub to pump hose seems o.k. so I'm going to leave well enough alone at this time. (As for the model numbers for BOTH machines, Robert, when I type in the Model numbers they parts websites just say unavailable.) Would appreciate any help out there on obtaining those correct part numbers, as I may be able to find them that way. Thanks! -Steve

Post# 54343 , Reply# 16   1/23/2005 at 13:51 (7,031 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Hi Steve,

I typed in the model number for your '59 Kenmore on RepairClinic (with the 110 prefix of course), and I was able to get a list of parts, linked here. Are you sure the model number on the Frog-Eye is 553561? Usually it's 110.####### (7 digits).

Hope this helps.

--Austin

CLICK HERE TO GO TO westytoploader's LINK
Post# 54344 , Reply# 17   1/23/2005 at 13:53 (7,031 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Oops, link isn't working. On RepairClinic, in the "Find Parts" section, select "Kenmore," "Washing Machine", then type in 110.6015710 in the Model Number box. You should have a list of parts available for it.

Post# 54347 , Reply# 18   1/23/2005 at 14:11 (7,031 days old) by fixerman ()        

In the old parts book I have the Kenmore section unfortunately is incomplete. I wss looking at the Whirlpool section and assumed these were enough like the Kenmores to help figure out the parts issues.There is enough info to determine that the model no you have is a good model no. and is apparently a 1955. The book lists some parts for this model but not the what pump it takes. I think the 55 models didn't start with the typical 110 prefix as did the models from about 1958 on. A couple years ago I had an early frog eye and also could not find that model on Sears web site or any other one. I was surprised when the 57 or 58 model numbers came up on sears web site.

You might try calling the parts houses in your area. I know that C. E. Sundberg, my supplier, can look up parts on microfilm for old models that they don't list on their web site. Or if you care to make a long distance call to them their Chicago no is 773-723-2700.

If you have no luck with this I will give you the numbers I have but it would be better to know for sure what parts you need by looking them up.

Post# 54348 , Reply# 19   1/23/2005 at 15:45 (7,031 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        
Reply to Fixerman,and Westytoploader----

 Thanks, I will call Sundbergs tomorrow. Funny you should mention the 110 prefix. My '59 DOES NOT have that prefix on the badge. I learned to add it only after the good folks at my usual parts supplier told me about it! Thanks Austin, I will go visit the RepairClinic web site now. The '55 does not have the 110 prefix stamped on the badge either. Hope I will be able to find the parts as I am anxious to get the '55 "sea-worthy".--Steve

Post# 54426 , Reply# 20   1/24/2005 at 05:25 (7,031 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
outer tub removal

 Another small note, if you remove the outer tub from the baseplate, note that there are cork spacers between the tub and the baseplate where the bolts go through. Make sure you replace them when re-assembling.

Post# 54441 , Reply# 21   1/24/2005 at 08:07 (7,031 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        
Thank You!!!!

 A thank you note to everyone for sharing your wealth of imformation with me. I will start back to work on these machines today.----Steve


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