Thread Number: 10471
What led to the demise of combo washer/dryers? |
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Post# 191517 , Reply# 2   2/16/2007 at 10:50 (6,250 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)   |   | |
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Post# 191526 , Reply# 3   2/16/2007 at 11:16 (6,250 days old) by revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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I assume you mean the US BUILT washer/dryer combo? They are still alive and well in the European market. Last weekend I was touring some new lofts/condos and they had a new LG washer/dryer (non-vented) combo unit.
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Post# 191560 , Reply# 4   2/16/2007 at 13:33 (6,250 days old) by mustangman ()   |   | |
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I'm sure they are expensive. The LG web site does not list a price for the model with 7 washing settings. I did not check the other model. |
Post# 191585 , Reply# 6   2/16/2007 at 15:13 (6,250 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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There are lots of reasons why they failed to catch on in the 'States. First, as Kelly mentioned, the time problem. To dry clothes efficiently, you need a big drum. But if you make the drum big enough to dry the load you are washing in it, there are two serious problems. One, the person loading the drum is going to overload it unless you have some sort of weight limiting system. Very complex and hard to do - especially before binary logic went solid state. Second, the forces working upon the drum increase exponentially as the drum's circumference expands. This has as a consequence that a machine of normal size spinning at X rpm when expanded to tumble those clothes effectively, was now putting a load on the drum that was four or eight or more times greater to achieve the same extraction. No way to do that at reasonable cost. So the machines usually only dried half the load they washed, this meant not double the time to wash and dry two loads of clothes but four times... Finally, the forced air drying systems used in European combo's today are fairly new. Up until the early 1980's, infrared drying was used. The condensor systems were very primitive and extremely trouble prone. A good idea, just not practicable at reasonable expense. |
Post# 191589 , Reply# 7   2/16/2007 at 15:43 (6,250 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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One must remember historically housewives in the United States had access to space, relatively cheap electric or gas rates, which meant laundry could be either dried on lines or in a dryer. This was especially true after the war with the big push to the surburbs. Tying up one machine for hours only prolonged the huge task of all that laundry in an era when there was little "dry clean only" and man made fibers. For all the reasons mentioned above, combo units seem like a good idea in theory, but in reality washing and drying require different drum volumes to be effective. In the two or so hours it took to so a load in most combos then, a woman could have several loads washed and on the line, or dried and folded/put away; there simply is no contest. Mind you combo units probably had a place then as now as a niche market, but probably wouldn't sell no where near the units needed to keep a production line profitable. L. |
Post# 191620 , Reply# 9   2/16/2007 at 17:30 (6,250 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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The Bendix Duomatic, introduced in 1953 was far and away the best combination unit of it's day. It had a 27" drum that gave excellent washing results - clothes rode the drum to the top and dropped, smashing into the water over and over that did give good results rather quickly. For drying, they used one of the best condenser systems although it would be considered wildly wasteful today. The large drum allowed for plenty of tumbling room and the user was instructed on how to load the drum at the beginning of the wash-dry cycles which was simple and easy to understand. The machine spins at 505 RPM (remember the 27" drum) and gave pretty decent results, about average in most ratings for it's time. Bendix did have a lock on the patents for almost every piece of that machine, including the suspension system for the drum, condensing system, cycle sequences and most importantly, the idea of the "Combination Washer-Dryer" itself so that every other manufacturer had to pay royalties to Bendix to even make a combo. Most other brands paled in comparison - washing the clothes in a drum wasn't difficult but if you couldn't spin them properly, rinsing and the rest of the process suffered greatly. The Westinghouse combination spun at only 180 rpm, the clothes are so wet at the end of the cycle, you can wring water out of them with your hands! As L said, space and utilities were inexpensive and plentiful so the combo didn't become the runaway hit that appliance makers thought it would but there were a few still being made into the early 70's - Whirlpool(under the Kenmore name) and GE were the last holdouts but completely gone by 1975 or so. |
Post# 191651 , Reply# 11   2/16/2007 at 19:19 (6,250 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Yes Steve is correct - I for warn everyone Beware of LG service. Much will be said in my posting under LG Service Nightmare. It is to bad they do not make a combo in America any longer! OH Bendix where you? I would strongly recommend to anyone that makes a purchase, especially from a foreign company to check to make sure service is reliable or at least somewhat reliable first. Buying a LG is like playing Russian roulette. If it works it's great but if you need service your screwed! Peter |
Post# 191787 , Reply# 13   2/17/2007 at 00:12 (6,249 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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They work. Since space here is often at a premium, people will accept the 1/2 load drying capacity. But most folks only use it in emergencies. The much faster spin speeds, enormously higher build quality, and less wasteful condensation systems help, too. But they are still horribly time consuming. Bendix' patent lock down ultimately delayed the US FL market's acceptance for 40 years... I am still puzzled by the lack of seperate high speed spinners in the US. I can cut my drying time (and the detergent residue)very much by spinning at 2,800rpm for just five minutes. Seems like a clear cut winner, but the resistance to the idea is very high. "Wrinkling/Tearing" being two common mis-conceptions I hear from friends and relations in the 'States. |
Post# 191790 , Reply# 14   2/17/2007 at 00:14 (6,249 days old) by exploder3211 ()   |   | |
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Who's spin-x blew up on here??? |
Post# 191800 , Reply# 15   2/17/2007 at 00:34 (6,249 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)   |   | |
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I think that was Pulsator's Spin-X that bit the dust... Has anyone here ever seen one of the present-day Thor combos? They make one that has a condensor dryer. 120v, too. I've often wished that peteski50 had one of those instead of that *CENSORED* LG. I'm not talking about vintage Thors like the Automagic; the company is still around (or revived) and making machines today. |
Post# 191806 , Reply# 16   2/17/2007 at 00:59 (6,249 days old) by peteski50 (New York)   |   | |
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Hi Sandy, I hear their are problems with the Thor also. It's a matter of getting decent service also. Although when I had my Equator their was once a problem and I got the service ASAP. I am so sorry they I gave up that machine. Also Equator doesn't make those types anymore that were from Italy. Now they are making the Quietline machines from China. Even though I like the combo principal I won't get another. I like to hang a lot of my clothes I wear and I dry mostly my linens like sheets and towels. That is why a combo works well for me. If I have to replace the LG I will probably buy a Frigidaire front loader and live without a dryer. It's not worth the hassel. Like I said I wish they would make a combo in the USA. Peter |
Post# 191811 , Reply# 18   2/17/2007 at 01:45 (6,249 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E)   |   | |
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Peter: Well, I am sorry to hear that about Thor, because it looks like a great idea. It's too bad that companies can't seem to put a priority on service, because nothing will lose customers for a company faster than bad service (witness the demise of Maytag as an independent company). Conversely, nothing can put a company over like superior service. Think about it- Thor makes a 120v condensor combo that can be made portable with castors and a sink hook-up, and has no tell-tale steamy dryer exhaust to alert a landlord or super. What could be more perfect for New York City, with its millions of prospective customers? If superior service went along with such a product, Thor could almost own the NYC market. |
Post# 191816 , Reply# 19   2/17/2007 at 03:27 (6,249 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Should point out that "Thor" does not make anything. Rather the brand name was purchased and is slapped on a rebadged European or Asian made unit. Last time one checked, the company that was importing "Quietline" front loaders and combo units was bringing in the Thor units as well to the United States. IIRC, the units were made by one of the Merloni companies, not sure which though. L. |
Post# 192306 , Reply# 21   2/19/2007 at 17:43 (6,247 days old) by lonestar1947 (Dearborn,mi)   |   | |
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Electricity wasn't that cheap in the 50's, my father was an electrical engineer! My mother (who had a 1956 Bendix Duo) said the dryer used too much electricity, they bought a dryer and kept the Duo for washing only..., it lasted 30 years! |
Post# 192394 , Reply# 24   2/20/2007 at 08:59 (6,246 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)   |   | |
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LG makes two different models.One is a 24" wide unit that does a 14 pound dry load and the other is a 27" model that does a 22 pound load.both run on 110 volts and have the condenser dry feature the 24 ' model is listed at $1499/whiteor $1599/stainless.The 27" model is listed @ $1699 and comes only in white.The average cycle takes 135 minutes from start to finish.But remember this,not all of us are at the washer when it finishes in fact the average person doesn't take the wash out for 3 hours or more after the cycle is over to put the load in the dryer.By that time,the combos are completely done.------hello.
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Post# 192425 , Reply# 26   2/20/2007 at 12:32 (6,246 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)   |   | |
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Up until the early 80's most condensor dryers and combo's were water cooled. These days most are air cooled, and the remaining water cooled ones use about 8-10L for a dry cycle. |
Post# 192702 , Reply# 28   2/21/2007 at 16:40 (6,245 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)   |   | |
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All GE combos were ventless and used water condesing to dry the load. And yes they do take 2 hours, the Bendix is much faster at 45 miuntes as Tom quoted earlier. The GE's broil your clothes under a 2 element broiler whereas the Bendix used 180 degree hot circulated air. Much easier on your clothes, but the square window in the GE is too cool! |
Post# 197278 , Reply# 32   3/14/2007 at 01:09 (6,224 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Well, the slowest spinning combo was the Westinghouse, but the O'keefe & Merritt combo didn't spin at all! Just went from rinse, right into dry. A 120,000 BTU gas burner supplied the extra heat needed to overcome the excess moisture. Imagine the horror inside that machine. The Easy combo spun at 250 RPM and like many others, pre-heated the clothes and drum while spinning to get a jump on the drying time. Easy was also the only combo to have a tilted drum. Whirlpool was the only combo maker to completely re-design their combo from the ground up in the early 60's. They acheived a much better spin performance - about that of their toploading washers - and by all accounts were about the best performing of the later combos with a decent spin speed and good drying results. Philco scrapped the original Bendix 36" cabinet and 27" drum design for a smaller footprint (27") in 1959 but this made the drum quite small and the washing & drying performance wasn't as good as the earlier Bendix models. Consumer Reports tested the Bendix Duomatic in 1954-55 and called it "an impressive achievement" which, coming from CR, was particularly exciting. |
Post# 197320 , Reply# 33   3/14/2007 at 07:06 (6,224 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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~I can cut my drying time (and the detergent residue)very much by spinning at 2,800rpm for just five minutes. ~Who's spin-x blew up on here??? ME ME ME ME ME~ Let's not forget that the larger the tub's diameter, the less RPM are needed to achieve a targerted G-force. Therefore (just as an example) 2,800 rpm in a 12-inch wide tub(30cm) may be the same as 1,400 rpm in a 24 inch (60cm) wide tub. Would anyone know exaclty what the formula is for G-force determination? |
Post# 197324 , Reply# 34   3/14/2007 at 07:31 (6,224 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Didn't the Westinghouse also have a tilted drum? Has anyone ever seen one of the O'Keefe and Merritt models...I can't imagine how stiff those clothes might have been in a hard water area. So to recap, the originals were: Bendix first to market(2 versions--earlier wide, later narrow) Westinghouse (tilted tub) Easy narrow cabinet--apparently bankrupted Hupp) Maytag (short time on market, bought back from owners) GE (lasted until 1970 or so) Whirlpool/Kenmore (Kenmore lasted until 1970 or so) Norge??? (I think there was one mentioned in Consumer Reports) O'Keefe and Merritt am I missing any? |
Post# 197343 , Reply# 36   3/14/2007 at 08:29 (6,224 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 197364 , Reply# 38   3/14/2007 at 09:42 (6,224 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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I used an LG combo that was installed in a hotel suite in Vancouver and ( with small vacation-sized loads) it was amazing!!! Spun as fast as my LG washer at home and dried in a trice. If I lived in a small apartment, I would consider buying one. However, when you think about it, almost anyone not in a major urban center with the means to provide the utilities for a combo could muster up a little extra space for a dryer. Why go to the extra expense and uncertainty when that was possible? I don't think it's a mistake that the only combos made now are made in Asia: urban living spaces there are notoriously tiny. Let's see what the Chinese start producing for their booming metropoliiiii when they get going. |
Post# 197366 , Reply# 39   3/14/2007 at 09:49 (6,224 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)   |   | |
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One of the Hotpoint UK engineers I worked with would always carry with him 3 large Bath size towels and would do a maintenance clean on the Washer Dryers with them.......He reckoned that with a rinse and fast spin, the amount of water that was being spun at 800 / 1000 out of the towels proved enough force to spray wash the outer tub clear of any lint, they also advised customers to do the same periodically... A hoover guy used to select a last rinse, and when the tub was full of water, re-select a spin, ONLY for a few seconds, he reckoned it was enough force for all the water to do the same trick, throwing a tub full of water everywhere....(this was only to be done on the condensor machines) otherwise it would shoot out of the vent!!! Mike |
Post# 197374 , Reply# 40   3/14/2007 at 10:09 (6,224 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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Baja, the Chinese already make a combo. It is imported into this country and is pretty pathetic. The LG combo you used, was it the little one or the big one? What type of fabrics were you drying, synthetics that don't hold much moisture? Thanks, Tom |
Post# 197592 , Reply# 41   3/15/2007 at 07:28 (6,223 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 197600 , Reply# 42   3/15/2007 at 08:47 (6,223 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
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Post# 197604 , Reply# 43   3/15/2007 at 08:59 (6,223 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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What is it, a Haier? I was using the small one; it fit handily inside a closet next to the kitchenette in my wonderful little Hotel on Davies suite. I was washing cottons, not many either, but enough to recognize the same actions as my LG washer at home and realize with the same high speed spin drying wouldn't take long. If I owned one, I would do what I already do now which is to remove many articles that I line dry and leave a smaller load for the dryer. That's one of the things I've loved best about switching to the high spin FL, things are so dry by the end of the wash cycle that many things air dry quickly. I'll see if I have a snapshot of the unit from my vacation pics. |
Post# 198942 , Reply# 47   3/22/2007 at 05:23 (6,216 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)   |   | |
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LG makes two combos.One is 24"wide and does a 14 pound dry load(7pounds to take out before drying)of laundry.The other is a 27"wide model and does a 22 pound dry laod(10 pounds to take out before drying.)Both run on 120 volts and have ventless drying(condensor)They retail for $1499 and$1799.As long as you do smaller loads and don't cram them,they work great and take about 2.5 hours/cycle.The 24"model spins 1400 rpms.The 27"model spins 1200 rpms.
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