Thread Number: 1076
agitation speed and rotation 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 54523   1/24/2005 at 20:09 (7,030 days old) by Cybrvanr ()        

I have noticed vastly different agitation speeds on different T.L. machines. The Maytag coin-op machines in my college apartment laundromat that they installed in the early 90's have a very short, fast strokes, which seem to be in the 100-120 S.P.M. range, but only rotates 90-120 degrees. My mother's G.E. washer that she purchased back in the mid 80's is much slower, about 40-60 SPM, but has much deeper roatation, almost 360 degrees. My T.L. compact whirlpool seems to be about the same speed and roatation as the GE too.

The interesting thing I noticed about the GE's agitator is that it has sort of a corkscrew design that seems to churn the water in an upwards direction when it's on a clockwise stroke, circulating the clothes from top to bottom. The Maytag and my Whirlpool both have straight vane agitators. The clothes seem to turn over in the Maytag, but in a much slower rate. My whirlpool though doesn't have any circulation from top to bottom hardly at all.

What's your opinion on the agaitation method. Short and quick, or deep and slow?




Post# 54527 , Reply# 1   1/24/2005 at 20:35 (7,030 days old) by laundramatt (Youngstown, Ohio)        

I am a traditionalist. I much prefer the deep and slow agitation method. The clothes don't need to circulate as much up and down if they are agitated more back and forth. I also feel that the slow agitation creates less wear on the clothes while still doing a great job of cleaning. Bring back the slow, deep agitation strokes! Are there any toploaders still being made with this style of agitation, or do I have to continue to look for classic washers? I know about F&P, and also have heard something about new Speed Queens. I'm about ready to go back to a wringer washer.

Post# 54530 , Reply# 2   1/24/2005 at 21:14 (7,030 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        
I second it:

 Yes: bring back the slower-longer agitate strokes-does work better.And if you have to use a DA agitator-the longer stoke makes the auger bladed top section rotate better.I still do like the traditional agitators better.I am even going to look for one of those WP "winged" surgilator agitaors to use in my BD KN machine to use as well as the DA one.I used to have a short"choppy" stroke washer(KN) didn't like it at all.traded it in on an older WP surgilator equipped 90 model.

Post# 54533 , Reply# 3   1/24/2005 at 21:33 (7,030 days old) by westytoploader ()        

I prefer a washer with a long agitation stroke as well. Whirlpool/Kenmore BD is the best. The Super Roto-Swirl in my '82 Kenmore moves the load counter-clockwise and slowly circulates it from top to bottom, and it is also very gentle. As you probably might have guessed, it is the best at cleaning. The wide Penta-Vane (pictured below) also circulates and cleans well, but only with small to medium-size loads (don't overload it). And yes Matt, the new Speed Queens have a slow agitation stroke; probably the only brand left with this besides (WCI/Electrolux) Frigidaire.

I do have a Power-Fin installed in my "orbital" Maytag. With the large base and short, fast stroke, it turns over extremely well, although I am a little worried about wear. In my DD Kenmore, I have a DD Surgilator. It rolls over smoothly and slowly (from my understanding, slow, constant turnover is the key to good cleaning) and since there is no stupid corkscrew to force them toward the rapidly oscillating base, it is gentler. I ABSOLUTELY HATE Dual-Action agitators; none of the washers I have now are currently using them. I pretty much quit the Dual-Action habit "cold turkey" in September. IMHO, forcing clothes turnover doesn't clean clothes one bit; it's better to load loosely. I can judge how much clothing I can put in the machine better using straight and ramp agitators, and there's less of a tendency to overload.

--Austin

Post# 54535 , Reply# 4   1/24/2005 at 22:04 (7,030 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        
Penta-Vane

 In looking at Austins picture-the Penta Vane isn't the same as a Penta-Swirl. My mothers washer has the Penta Swirl agitator.It's very gentle but firm.Has good circulation as well.Yes I too like the traditional type agitators becuase it is easier to see if they are overloaded-you just watch to see if things are turning over and circulating.With DA agitators its more difficult-and if you overload those-it will terar up your clothes.Acts as an auger shredder than an agitator.And if DA are "underloaded" not much turnover at all because the base vanes generate weak turnover currents.I just have one of the older DA agitator KN machines-just like the "sound" of its agitator-sounds like a ratchet wrench!

Post# 54566 , Reply# 5   1/25/2005 at 08:08 (7,030 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        
agitation

 laundromat's profile picture
I prefer the up and down, pulsating agitation.However, since nobody makes them anymore, I like the longer stroke,155 degree arc agitation like the Admiral/Maytag Performa,Speed Queen,Amana and Frigidaire.I am not really a top load washer person since around 1992 when I moved to Florida but I do like the old ones and their way of washing a whole lot more than the ones out today and the ones mentioned previously are the only current brands that come anywhere near their performance.I understand that the newer designs on most are a lot easyer to repair than before but front loading washers have pretty much stayed the same as far as design---just a lot larger in capacity and more electronics involved.As far as mechanics go,the works are a bit easyer (the FriGEMores have a single belt drive and a seperate motor for the pump instead of the multy three belt drive and solinoids.I will admit though it is a bitch to replace the tub berring seals on those bastards.Otherwise they do a great job and are fun to watch!

Post# 54573 , Reply# 6   1/25/2005 at 09:22 (7,030 days old) by veg-o-matic (Baltimore, Hon!)        

veg-o-matic's profile picture
Hmmm.

All this talk about long, slow strokes and up-and-down pulsating action.

We're still talking about washers, right? ;)

veg

Post# 54579 , Reply# 7   1/25/2005 at 13:39 (7,030 days old) by westytoploader ()        

"Hmmm. All this talk about long, slow strokes and up-and-down pulsating action. We're still talking about washers, right? ;)"

I'm pretty sure that's a yes...LOL! ;-)

Post# 54581 , Reply# 8   1/25/2005 at 13:58 (7,030 days old) by retromom ()        
Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

 Now boys; remember, Mom is watching :-0

Post# 54584 , Reply# 9   1/25/2005 at 14:08 (7,030 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
And she seems to be having a great deal of fun . . .



Post# 54658 , Reply# 10   1/25/2005 at 21:18 (7,029 days old) by Pineforestred ()        
the new ones!

 I NOW HAVE THE NEW KENMORE ELITE HE4T. LIKE IT OK, TAKES FOREVER TO SPIN, IT CANNOT DECIDE IF IT WILL BE IN BALANCE OR NOT. OH WELL I WAMTED IT. HAVE OLDER MAYTAGS TO ENTERTAIN ME!

Post# 54663 , Reply# 11   1/25/2005 at 21:29 (7,029 days old) by veg-o-matic (Baltimore, Hon!)        
Dang!

 veg-o-matic's profile picture
Forgot about Mom.

Man, I hate having to behave myself!

veg the menace

Post# 54718 , Reply# 12   1/26/2005 at 09:00 (7,029 days old) by designgeek ()        

Current-production Danby twin-tub has a somewhat unusual agitation:

Gentle cycle: 360-degree rotation (one full revolution) in one second, then a one second pause, then 360-degrees in the other direction in one second, then a one-second pause, repeat. This results in a kind of "punctuated rollover" that's interesting to watch. However I don't think it's "gentle" enough for really delicate garments e.g. cashmere sweaters.

Normal cycle: 540-degree rotation (1-1/2 full revolutions), one second pause, 360-degree rotation (1 full revolution) in the other direction, one second pause, repeat. Tends to create a vigorous interrupted-whirlpool action, and no tangling.

Both modes work quite well except they have a little trouble with blue jeans, which I think is because of the compact-sized washtub (that is, jeans need more room to move around in, so any compact washer would have a similar issue).

The sound of this working is a combination of the quiet background ticking of the mechanical timer, a "tick-tock!" every second or so when the timer trips the polarity-reversal switch that controls the motor (clockwise, stop, counterclockwise, stop, repeat), and an intermittent "whirrrr!" when the motor is running in either direction. Plus the expected sloshing-water sounds each time the flow changes direction. The spinner sound is hard to describe; basically a motor winding up from a stop, to full running speed, and then running nearly silently (with a little bit of hum and vibration) for however-long you set the timer for.

I just got one of these, IMHO it's way cool. Some folks here might immediately decide I'm crazy, because these machines are lightly built and use lots of plastics. However, all the twin-tubs are made in Asia nowadays, using plastic tub assemblies and frame components to hold costs down, and this is the only one I've found that has a conventional agitator instead of an impeller/pulsator. Also has a separate motor for each tub, and a third motor for the pump, which combination makes for a high degree of flexibility.

I'll have more to say about this machine when I post a report including pictures, when I have the free time to do so.

Post# 54735 , Reply# 13   1/26/2005 at 11:20 (7,029 days old) by retromom ()        
Danby twin tub

 Designgeek:

Why do they still make twin tubs? With all of the automation out there, I am surprised that there is still a market for them? Is it because they are water efficient, don't take up a lot of space, etc. Enlighten me, because I just don't know.

Thanks-
Venus

Post# 54781 , Reply# 14   1/26/2005 at 16:05 (7,028 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

peterh770's profile picture
Inexpensive to produce, simple mechanism for agitation and extraction, inexpensive for the consumer, small and portable for apartment dwellers. A niche market...

Post# 54904 , Reply# 15   1/27/2005 at 02:13 (7,028 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
And wonderful to play with!!!

Post# 54918 , Reply# 16   1/27/2005 at 07:30 (7,028 days old) by designgeek ()        

Correction: in the Normal cycle, it's 2 full revolutions in one direction, then a one-second pause, then 1-1/2 revolutions in the other direction. Sounds like there's a similarity with Cybrvanr's Whirlpool compact.

Retromom:

These things are apparently still made in huge numbers in Asia (see search instructions below) and are also popular in the dry regions of Australia.

They're made in various sizes from compact (5 lb.) to large (16 lb.), so size isn't the key point. Only two are currently imported into the US: Danby is rated max 10 lbs. (I would say 8 to be safe and so far I've run loads at about 6 lbs. to get a sense of how it performs), and a new Haier is rated at 16 (I would say 12 to be safe) (see, there's a pattern here: I tend to treat my tools carefully in general, washers included).

Electricity efficiency: Power consumption with all three motors running (washtub, spintub, pump), is 500 watts while doing 8 lbs. My TL Hotpoint on the other hand (Spiralator-equipped if I've got my terminology correct) uses 930 watts while doing 10 lbs. (Since hanging out around here I realized it's OK to have more than one!:-) Assuming equal cycle length, the Danby is using 62.5 watts per lb., and the Hotpoint is using 93 watts / lb. So the Danby is about 33% more efficient, though they are both useful to have.

I'm going to get more specific and empirical figures for actual kilowatt-hours per load as I run my experiments, and will post those when I have them.

Water efficiency: The "final rinse" water is basically clean water with a little bit of residual detergent, so it can be kept in the washtub for use as washwater for the following cycle. That's between a 30% and 50% efficiency gain, depending on how one handles the rinsing (which in turn depends on quantity of detergent in the wash cycle, thus more experiments to run).

And all this for $250 plus shipping, compared to minimum twice that for a decent (Danby, again!) front-loader. Which is the next major benefit: savings on first cost, and therefore more accessible to apartment-dwellers.

And as PeterH points out, simple mechanism, which translates to a theoretically lower potential for something to get out of order, and also less expensive repairs.

Niche market: Depends. Niche market in the USA presently. Major market in the UK in the 50s and 60s, and presently in Asia, Australia, and the Pacific Islands. I suspect market share in North America and elsewhere will grow as water & energy issues become more critical. People on a tighter budget will view these things as a way to gain efficiencies at lower cost. $250 for a twin tub, vs. minimum $500 for a front loader, will make a significant difference to many potential buyers.

Also potentially faster doing the laundry altogether. You have one load spinning while another is washing. Theoretically, running cycle times in parallel like that is twice as fast as any machine using comparable cycle times in series; though in a practical sense it's not quite, because you spend a minute or two transferring clothes during each cycle change. Also there's a learning curve, as with anything requiring manual input, it will take a while to get "good at it" to the point where I can do the whole routine using "muscle memory" without having to think much about it. At which point, doing the laundry becomes a good time to have a long phone conversation. Except it's kinda' fascinating to watch, so...:-).

And, as Foraloysius pointed out, fun to play with!:-). Seriously though, one of my main reasons for buying this unit is my R&D project on graywater recycling: I need a machine that's in current production and has manual controls, in order to have control over all of the variables: wash time, rinse time, spin time, water input / quantity / discharge, number of rinse cycles, etc.

I think the ideal machine for that purpose would be a twin tub with a horizontal drum, loaded through a hatch at the top (and with glass at the front of the drum that lined up with a round window on the cabinet, so you can see the water & clothing levels and watch the operation). And manual controls for speed of rotation and frequency of rotation-reversals. I don't know that anyone's done such a thing yet, so I guess that's my first contribution to the "invent a new washer" discussion (which I will be getting back to over the weekend, finally!).

Here's how to get a glimpse of how popular these things are in certain parts of the world:

Go to www.alltheweb.com..., click the search for Pictures, and put in the phrase "twin tub" as two words (with a space in the middle) and without the quote marks around it. Click the Search button and look at what comes up. All of those are made in Asia, mostly in China. To that add the other known manufacturers, some of which are big names: Panasonic, Toshiba, LG, Danby, Haier, and one or two more if I'm not mistaken. Whirlpool even makes one over there, but doesn't import it into the USA. Yet.

So you can see, this is a part of the industry that hasn't gotten a lot of attention in the USA yet, but it's by no means small. In the near future we might expect some higher-priced models with features such as stainless steel tubs and built-in water heaters, spin-rinse functions, and auto-soak functions such as Panasonic's Soakmatic feature.


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