Thread Number: 12589
Can Boil Washes Be Harmful?
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Post# 220142   7/2/2007 at 21:29 (6,114 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
I have a friend who plays a lot of tennis and has a ton of white t-shirts (well, used to be white) that are covered in sweat stains. The stains drive him crazy and I wanna help, but I don't know if a boil wash can be harmful. They are regular cotton shirts that he has worn for years but they have prints on them. Some of these shirts are his absolute favorite and he'd be heart broken if the prints began to peel off. Would a boil wash be harmful to these prints? Also, is there anything special I should do to the stains if I do end up washing them besides a Tablespoon of Persil and half a tablespoon of STPP?
Thanks!
Jamie





Post# 220145 , Reply# 1   7/2/2007 at 21:53 (6,114 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
"Peel" off? Are they some sort of plastic? If so, then yes, one shouldn't launder that at very high temperatures.

OTHO if one is speaking of embroidery on white shirt that has been laundered already, it should be colourfast and can take hot or very hot water. I'd stick to 160F or 180F to be on the safe side. Better yet run a test wash with similar shirt your friend does not hold so dear, it really is the only way to know.

L.


Post# 220190 , Reply# 2   7/3/2007 at 01:53 (6,113 days old) by brettsomers ()        

if the shirts are silkscreened... dont boil.

by sweat stains do you mean antiperspirant stains perhaps?


Post# 220191 , Reply# 3   7/3/2007 at 01:59 (6,113 days old) by pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

pulsator's profile picture
No no, I mean nasty yellow sweat stains! YUCK! But, he does play tennis everyday and he runs for the cross country team and he's on the lacross team... He's very atheletic :P

Post# 220192 , Reply# 4   7/3/2007 at 02:10 (6,113 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        

Against sweat-stains usually an ammonia solution (one tablespoon full in a cup of cold water - and open the window!) should help when applied before the wash with a sponge onto the stains and/or some tablespoons full added to the wash-water, too!
Boil-wash is difficult with colourful embroideries!! They might bleed and or loose colour and brightness.
Usually boiling is good for plain white items made from cotton and/or linnen!

Ralf


Post# 220206 , Reply# 5   7/3/2007 at 06:13 (6,113 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I don't know if they are available in your area, but CARBONA, the company that used to market carbon tetrachloride for spot removal had a stain remover display in some stores near the detergents a while back. Now you might have to look for it online. They were these little plastic bottles with various potions for removing the type of stain listed on the label, such as fruit juice, clay, etc. There is probably something there for the stains you mention, but the thing that makes perspiration stains difficult to remove is that usually they also have antiperspirant mixed in that was washed into the shirt by the perspiration. Getting the detergent solution past the water repelling mineral salts is the reason why STPP is so good for this type of cleaning. You might try putting each shirt on a flat surface like a half size sheet cake pan so there are sides to hold some water, but do not use a good one for this. Raise the decorative portion on something like a couple of 2 liter soda bottles. Wet the stained area with water then sprinkle a generous amount of STPP and Persil on the stained areas. Use a dripping wet gentle brush to scrub the powders into the fabric. Wear gloves and keep the area being treated wet. Cover the area with plastic and let it sit and keep checking and scrubbing until you see improvement. If you have a rack that you can place over a sink, a dishwasher rack you can turn upside down in the tub or if you can place the item where water can drain through the fabric, you can pour boiling water through the stained area to rinse without harming the decoration. Treating each shirt by hand is going to be a lot more work than just throwing the shirts into a boil wash and you are going to use as much Persil and STPP for each shirt as you were planning to use for the whole load. Even if you could put them through a boil wash, you would need to use more STPP and detergent in the washer to attack the buildup in the shirts. Are they almost stiff in the stained areas? It seems like they could be. I'd check the collars, too. They probably have an oily buildup if these shirts have been so poorly cleaned over the years.

If this is successful, show the shirt to your friend. Ask if he would like to learn how to restore them and show him what is involved. He can decide if it is worth it to him to do it himself or pay you to spend a lot of time and energy doing it. Other than doing this for my own clothes, I would do maybe one for a family member or very good friend and let them take up the task, if they wished.


Post# 220223 , Reply# 6   7/3/2007 at 07:05 (6,113 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Jamie -

A temperature of around 60*C should get rid of any tough stains, though to be honest I still get good results at temperatures as low as 40*C even on really grubby whites. Boilwashing is only really useful for extra sanitising over the 60*C temperatures, performance wise there is little to no difference.

A 40-60*C wash combined with a good dose of your German Persil should give you fabulous results!

Hope this helps!

Jon


Post# 220231 , Reply# 7   7/3/2007 at 07:54 (6,113 days old) by mrx ()        

Those aren't 'sweat' they're caused by a reaction between certain antiperspirants and the optical brighteners used in laundry detergents. It turns the stain a rather ugly shade of yellow.

To remove them, soak the clothes in a warm solution of high quality enzyme based detergent e.g. Persil overnight.

Then run a long 40C wash and plenty of rinsing.

Should remove the stains very effectively.

A good biological detergent with oxygen based bleaching action would be the best:
Persil (German or UK) powder only.
Ariel (European) powder only.

I don't know which US powders have oxygen bleach, but if you can't source one Ecover's Biological detergent contains powerful enzymes, oxygen bleaching agents and actually produces excellent results.
It has hardly any smell / very light natural fragrance.

Very hot washes should *only* be used on dyed or undyed colourfast cottons i.e. bed linen, towels etc.

It's not advisable to boil-wash most clothes as they may contain synthetic components e.g. thread used in seams, collar stiffeners, linings etc that will shrink badly once heated above 60C.

In general, normal clothes should only be washed at 40C.

Anything with any printed on designs shouldn't be washed above 40C as the design will shrink and you'll end up with a total mess.

The rule is : if it can't withstand a very hot ironing, or a very hot tumble dry DO NOT boil wash.

Also it *must* be cotton or linen.

Pretty much anything else can be very effectively cleaned through the process mentioned above.

If you have a miele or similar:
Select cottons, 40C, and add : Soak and Prewash.
Add good biological universal detergent like Persil/Ariel to both [I] and [II] sections of the dispenser drawer and your favourite fabric conditioner.

Push start and forget about it. It will take hours, but the results are spectacular!


Post# 220526 , Reply# 8   7/4/2007 at 05:29 (6,112 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Have to add my voice to the above post in agreeing that "boil washing" really isn't required these days, other than for sanitising. Use a good TOL HE detergent such as Persil, with or add on its own percarbonate bleach and one has great results with temps as low as 40C to 60C.

Few if anything made today can withstand repeated 140F washing much less temps < 140F. Perborate bleaches were one of the main reasons behind high temps, as it takes very hot water to achive the same results one can get with percarbonate bleach in cooler water.

Used to launder all whites at 180F or at least 140F, but saw no difference when using 120F, so there we are. With power prices becoming so dear, anything to save electricity that does not compromise results, gets my vote.

L.


Post# 220589 , Reply# 9   7/4/2007 at 10:55 (6,112 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
And then there are old stick-in-the-mud types like me who still insist on dosing white loads with liquid chlorine bleach to sanitize. Hey, at least I won't have to worry about mold growing in my frontloader, LOL!

I'm line-drying this summer and my neighbor (a retired woman who is also, conveniently, my tax preparer) noted "You sure do have a lot of white stuff!" It hadn't occured to me before; all my bed linens, bath linens, kitchen items, and briefs/T-shirts/short socks are white.

I don't wear black (my predominant winter color) in the summer, so I generally only do one load of colors a week. The other five or six are all-white loads.

I must admit a clothesline full of gleaming whites looks pretty cool waving in the breeze...


Post# 220649 , Reply# 10   7/4/2007 at 14:07 (6,112 days old) by lavamat78800 ()        

Just test it, Jamie!

I also tested all with my Laundry, I teached washing myself.
I always put T-Shirts etc. with print in the boilwash, it doen´t mind and doesn´t do any damage at your Laundry.
But only boil theses T-shirts, which are made out of 100% cotton.
T-Shirts made out of Polyester wash at 60°C, warm.


Post# 220706 , Reply# 11   7/4/2007 at 18:07 (6,112 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
antipersperants, bleach, sttp

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I think it is kinda self-defeating to use an antiperspirant and then go out and play tennis. You need to sweat and lose that body heat in order to maintain effectiveness. You can and should take a shower afterwards.
The boil/non-boil question has pretty much been resolved for me by the low-temperature oxygen bleaches. One thing to be aware of in using German detergents; we frequently have a third enzyme which I have never seen in the US: a "cellulase". If you use a detergent with that and really hot water and scrub vigorously, you will not only get those salts out...but you will damage the fibers. Sttp and hot water together with a good oxygen bleach would be much safer.


Post# 220724 , Reply# 12   7/4/2007 at 20:03 (6,112 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Celluase is found in many Amercian laundry detergents. Proctor and Gamble uses it in much of their TOL and MOL detergents such as Tide. In fact Tide has several patents based upon various celluase formulas, IIRC.

Celluase is used to "eat" off the fuzz and pills from cotton textiles to keep them looking "like new". It also helps to brighten and keep cotton textiles bright.

L.


Post# 220771 , Reply# 13   7/5/2007 at 02:02 (6,111 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Laundress,

panthera's profile picture
You know everything about Laundry. Gosh!
I've never seen that enzyme in the US, but pretty much only buy hypo-allergenic, non-enyzme, non-effective detergents when there...
I avoid it over here whenever I can; I know the idea sounds good, but I've read too many horror stories from folks who say good clothes eaten up in a short time.


Post# 220776 , Reply# 14   7/5/2007 at 04:01 (6,111 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        

There's that kind of enzyme (cellulase) in every modern washing powder (ARIEL, PERSIL, etc.) here - especially in detergents for coloured items/black washing and liquid detergents. They do not eat up the textiles as the concentration is too low to attack sound fibres. Only those tiny little bits that stick up from the fibre surface and which appear as a roughen up due to normal wash, wear and especially tumbling dry.

Ralf


Post# 220785 , Reply# 15   7/5/2007 at 05:49 (6,111 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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It is hard to tell what is in Amercian cleaning products in general since unlike the EU, there are no mandatory ingredient disclosure laws. However since enzymes are considered a potentially dangerous and allergic chemical they must be disclosed on MSDS, which is always my first place to look.

L.



Post# 220799 , Reply# 16   7/5/2007 at 07:07 (6,111 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
clever

panthera's profile picture
Ah, so, yes, that is a good tip, thanks Laundress.
Ralf, I am sure you are right, but have a few friends who insist their cottons got eaten much faster with this enzyme.
I don't know; I use amalyse and protease separately when I need them.
Which, thank goodness, is not often.
Will change when I see my cat in a few days!


Post# 220807 , Reply# 17   7/5/2007 at 08:37 (6,111 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        

Well maybe that in American wash-powders there are higher concentrations of those enzymes...??

In Germany we have these in our detergents for about 10-15 years and I cannot find any difference in durability of textiles. For example: my mate uses to buy HOM and other high quality t-shirts, which are quite expensive, and the oldest of them are 14-15 years old now and have been washed hundred times since then and also with these enzymes for minimumly 10-12 years. Now some of them are going in pieces - but imagine!

Ralf


Post# 220814 , Reply# 18   7/5/2007 at 09:25 (6,111 days old) by mrx ()        
enzyme (cellulase)

It's certainly not in Unilever Persil Bio:

Protease
Amylase
Lipase

There's no lipase in the S&M liquid.

Ariel:
Glycosidase
Protease


That would indicate to me that Persil Bio is actually quite likely to be better at removing oils and fats.

There's no cellulase in any UK/Ireland detergent that I could find

Checked : Unilever's products, P&G


Post# 220816 , Reply# 19   7/5/2007 at 09:39 (6,111 days old) by mrx ()        
What they do:

A protease is any enzyme that conducts proteolysis, that is, begins protein catabolism by hydrolysis of the peptide bonds that link amino acids together in the polypeptide chain.

Amylase is the name given to glycoside hydrolase enzymes that break down starch into glucose molecules. (P&G are calling them Glycosidase - same thing really)

Glycoside hydrolases (also called glycosidases) catalyze the hydrolysis of the glycosidic linkage to generate two smaller sugars. They are extremely common enzymes with roles in nature including degradation of biomass such as cellulose and hemicellulose, in anti-bacterial defense strategies (eg lysozyme), in pathogenesis mechanisms (eg viral neuraminidases) and in normal cellular function (eg trimming mannosidases involved in N-linked glycoprotein biosynthesis). Together with glycosyltransferases, glycosidases form the major catalytic machinery for the synthesis and breakage of glycosidic bonds.

A lipase is a water-soluble enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis of ester bonds in water–insoluble, lipid substrates[1].
(Persil and Surf only)

Lint formation isn't a huge issue in a front loading washing machines. The detergents keep the lint suspended in the water using various ingredients.

Henkel Persil contains a LOT of enzymes in comparison!

Protease
Lipase
Amalyse
Cellulase
Mannanase


Post# 221007 , Reply# 20   7/6/2007 at 01:55 (6,110 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        

Yeah MRX - you named it!
Would have taken me ages to write that in English...poohh!!

Amylase comes from the word amylum which is Latin and means starch whereas Glycoidase comes from Greek and glycos means honey/sugar/sweet. -ase is the ending for the Greek word for destroying or breaking down/up. So both mean "carbon-hydrates up-breakers"...smile.

Didn't know that Persil contains mannanase, but I do not see the reason for it...

Ralf



Post# 221010 , Reply# 21   7/6/2007 at 02:56 (6,110 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Gums

panthera's profile picture
I had to look this up, but the mannan polysaccharide group, when it's at home, are simply gums.
Locust bean gum, guar gum...all those additives to just about every food.
Since the other enzymes can't break these down, stains like chocolate ice cream and such are awful hard to remove without higher temperatures and washing times.
This enzyme breaks the gums in them down and permits much faster stain removal at lower temperatures.
According to the literature I scanned (and it was mainly patents for this approach, so not necessairly 100% to be trusted) this particulary enzyme group is very cheap to produce, stable and doesn't interfer with the other enzymes.
And now I know the rest of the story.
For the Europeans: E-numbers E412 and E410 are the two gums mentioned.


Post# 221016 , Reply# 22   7/6/2007 at 03:39 (6,110 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        

Well done Keven!!
Thank-you, I've learnt again something!

Ralf


Post# 221024 , Reply# 23   7/6/2007 at 06:03 (6,110 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
P&G has a patent on mannanase as well, and IIRC it can be found in Tide.

As have stated often, modern TOL enzyme containing detergents are one of the reasons the average wash temperature on both sides of the pond is now around 100F. Enzymes work best at 100F to 140F, and activated oxygen bleach within the same range. Sodium percarbonate does not need an activator and works in the same lower range. All this adds up to the reason we see less and less boil washing. It also explains in a great part the increase of laundry detergent liquids, which use enzymes and surfactants to replace washing soda and other salts commonly used for laundry.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO launderess's LINK


Post# 221038 , Reply# 24   7/6/2007 at 07:27 (6,110 days old) by mrx ()        
The UK's a bit fixated on non-bio

I don't understand why the UK's so fixated on non-bio detergents. There are perfectly skin-safe bio detergents out there.

I actually find some of the non bio formulations pretty harsh. I'd far rather see Persil Sensitive with enzymes and with some genuine skin-friendly forumulation


Post# 221039 , Reply# 25   7/6/2007 at 07:42 (6,110 days old) by mrx ()        
P&G Ariel seems to use Mannaway (Novozyme)

Ariel seems to be using: This Novozyme (Denmark) ingredient.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK


Post# 221041 , Reply# 26   7/6/2007 at 07:50 (6,110 days old) by mrx ()        
Fabric smoothing

I think the UK detergents are predominantly using Dimethicone and other softeners to achieve smoothness rather than enzymes to eat up fluff.

Post# 221181 , Reply# 27   7/7/2007 at 07:19 (6,109 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        

It occured to me yesterday that the days of worrying about stains not coming out in the wash are long gone. I very carelessly opened a bottle of Ribena in the kitchen whilst squeezing the bottle too hard. The result was a spray of blackcurrant juice all over the ceiling and all down a white bathsheet. I thought about pretreating it there and then but couldn't put the machine on for one towel. I finally washed it yesterday with no Vanish spray, which it would normally get. Washed a full load at 30 degrees with Ariel and the blackcurrant has come right out. Detergents are so much better than they used to be.

Post# 221182 , Reply# 28   7/7/2007 at 07:22 (6,109 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        
forgot to say

the only harm boil washes cause are undue wear and tear on clothing and to your electricity/gas bill. When you actually pay the bills, you realise just how wasteful it is.

Post# 221187 , Reply# 29   7/7/2007 at 07:52 (6,109 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Yes, detergents have come along way, which as influenced washing machine designs.

Pre-washes that were almost always part of a "normal" cycle, are now an option, that is if it can be found at all.

Goes without saying that washing temperatures have come down, as well as the requirement for heavy beating about of laundry. It is entirely possible to soak laundry clean with a good TOL modern detergent with damn good results.

Only stains one pre-treats these days are blood, and certian others, to make sure they are removed in the wash. Otherwise don't bother as have found TOL detergents like Tide and Persil do the job quite well. When in doubt bung a tablespoon or so of oxygen bleach or Vanish.

L.


Post# 221213 , Reply# 30   7/7/2007 at 13:16 (6,109 days old) by mrx ()        
Blood comes right out with both Ariel and Persil

I've never found any need to pre-treat anything. Stuff comes out clean, that particular 'sweat stain' is rather tough though as it's been caused by a reaction between antiperspirant and optical brighteners. The only way to remove it is with very long soaks.

I would avoid using antiperspirants that create such stains. It's usually an indication that the formula of the spray/roll on is way too strong. There are plenty of good non-staining antiperspirants out there


I think the best way to think of a modern front loader washing machine is as a Biochemical Reactor.

Your clothes are basically gently saturated with a concentrated solution of water and highly complex cleaning agents. Actually calling it a detergent is not giving it it's correct definition, it's far from simply detergent.

30°C to 40°C is the ideal temperature to activate the enzymes and the best machines will be designed to do a profile heat warming the water up gently to maximise the cleaning agents' effectiveness.

Normally you shouldn't have any problem shifting stains, but if you do, just increase the soak and wash time. Longer cool/warm washes don't really use that much power as it's only the motor that's running and it's quite a small amount of water to keep warm. Doing a full boil wash is pretty wasteful of energy.

For normally dirty items, i.e. just sweat and minor staining, a very short wash with a TOL detergent + a good rinse cycle should be more than sufficient and much better for your clothes.

Also, using a good liquid fabric conditioner, like Comfort, keeps clothes in much better shape for longer by protecting the fibres. In much the same way as using a good conditioner on your hair will keep it in good shape.

Boil washing really should only be used for sanitisation of laundry such as bed linen and towels and only where absolutely necessary.

The only thing I would say is that if you're almost always washing at 30C, it's worth running a hot wash once in a while just to make sure the machine gets a chance to flush out any residues of detergent and conditioner and kills off any bacteria growth which can cause your machine to smell bad.

Although, that being said, I have never really noticed any issue with smells from our machine and we rarely if ever do very hot washes.


Post# 221543 , Reply# 31   7/9/2007 at 04:56 (6,107 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
Temperatures...

As I have already mentioned here a while ago, we do lots of coldwash as there's no hot water tap in the basement, for 2 years in our SpeedQueen TL with ARIEL Cold Active Powder meanwhile - and we do not have any problems!

Ralf


Post# 221787 , Reply# 32   7/10/2007 at 10:47 (6,106 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)        
Mystery mould......

It has always puzzled me that so many problems are experienced with slime etc in FL machines, or any machine come to that. For as long as I can remember, my Mum always left all the lids up on her twin tubs for at least overnight before packing it away again. When she got her Bendix FL in 1981, and from that day on, the only time the door is fully closed is when it is in operation. In 26 years, she has never had a problem with mould/slime/mildew. She has never done a maintainance wash. Once a month, she removes the dispenser drawer and cleans it and she will check the filter for obstructions.

I have a HATL and if I need to check the sump filter for coins etc, I have to remove the only baffle in the drum to access the filter in the outer drum. It gives you a good chance to look around the state of the inner drum and the seals etc and I have never had a problem with slime etc.

I would suggest that anyone who does needs to get into the routine of allowing the machine to 'air' between loads and do not close doors/lids between cycles. This, in my experience should eliminate such problems.


Post# 221826 , Reply# 33   7/10/2007 at 17:37 (6,106 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Paul,

I think part of mould/mildew problems is a combination of not using the recommended amount of detergent, and not leaving the door open. However I have to say that my nana, who uses two tablets of detergent as do I in similar water conditions - she only lives a 5 minute walk round the corner, rarely washes above 40*C and never closes her washer door, but is starting to get mould on the seal her almost 2 year old WF340 and it can smell musty inside. I suggested to her that she did a 95*C maintenance wash and voila her machine was right as rain again... so I think there is a link between lack of high temperature washes and build up of mould mildew. One of my friends has a new Miele, approximately the same age as mum's and they never wash above 40*C, and again even with leaving the door open their seal is beginning to cake with mould. I can add to this by saying that we regularly use 60*C or above at least 3 times a week for bedding and towels, and we've never had mould problems. To add more confusion though we always had mould issues with the Bosch, even with high temperature washers so it probably is machine-, habit-, water-, geography- and detergent-dependent as to whether mould problems occur or not.

Thus the easy way for people who would otherwise get these problems would be to run a maintenance wash every month if hot washes aren't used as regularly as they should be - even the manual for my washing machine states this so there must be some element of truth in maintenance washes.

I forecast this to be an increasing problem with us being urged to wash at even lower temperatures nowadays, and having seen such problems for myself and seen the amount of posts on the internet I think you're probably one of the lucky ones, along with myself, who've never experienced mould problems personally in the machine purely from following good habits.

Jon


Post# 222034 , Reply# 34   7/11/2007 at 19:11 (6,105 days old) by mrx ()        
to solve mould

Place 1 good quality dishwasher tablet/standard dose dishwasher powder into the drum.
Fill machine to a high level
Run at 95C

Problem mould will be no more!

Part of the problem is that as some machines never fill up deep enough to wash out the rubber seal with hot water, it's just gently steamed all the time.


Post# 222123 , Reply# 35   7/12/2007 at 05:43 (6,104 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Actually the amount of enzymes in laundry detergents/products is rather small. The little buggers reproduce in response to digesting (read eating) whatever substance they are supposed to be attacking, under the right conditions (moisture and right temperature). Protease simply keeps eating protien, and so forth.

In theory drying and or high temperatures should kill off enzymes, but that is not always the case as both man altered and natural enzymes can survive a wide range of temperatures. This is why some people can develop allergic reactions to enzyme residue on laundry. In the presence of moisture and heat, the enzymes simply "come alive" as it were and begin eating protien. Sadly human skin and other parts/substances are made of protien, so hence the nasty rash. It is usually in the groin, underarms, and other warm/moist places such things occur. It is this reaction that lead the housewives and mothers of the UK to literally almost threaten the makers of Persil with bodily harm if they followed though with their plans to withdrawn non-bio Persil from the market.



Post# 222152 , Reply# 36   7/12/2007 at 10:37 (6,104 days old) by mrx ()        
That's actually an urban legend of some sort

Laundress,

Sorry to disagree with you there, but that's actually not biologically possible. Enzymes are simply proteins that behave as catalysts i.e. they accelerate chemical reactions. In the case of laundry washing they simply make it possible for various substances that stain fabric to hydrolyse in water or aid reactions with other components in the detergent.

The enzymes are not living organisms and cannot reproduce. They are proteins though and do function much better at about 30-45C. When you heat the water to a very high temp. you will denature them and they will be relatively useless, which is why there's very little point in starting with hot water and why front loaders heat the water from cold through a profile of temps.

The enzymes are originally produced, in a big plant somewhere using live organisms. They may even be genetically engineered to produce certain enzymes. However, these are NOT present in your laundry or dishwashing detergent!

Your clothes are being cleaned with the help of enzymes, not bacteria or other micro organisms so there's nothing alive on your clothes at any stage during the wash or afterwards.

The problems with people reacting to enzymes not rinsed off are similar to a reaction to a chemical i.e. it may irritate your skin / cause a mild reaction on your skin.

To be honest, I think the skin allergy link to enzymes is vastly over played. There are other ingredients in detergents that are much more likely to produce a violent reaction e.g. the bleaching agents and the surfactants.

The key is good rinsing. The enzymes are only enzymes, they are not alive, can't multiply or do anything of the sort.




Post# 222279 , Reply# 37   7/13/2007 at 02:35 (6,103 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
MRX

Yes, MRX, you are right to say so! I fully agree with you concerning the enzymes! But I have also to disagree with you in the point concerning the tensides and the bleaching agents. If you go and ask dermatologists they tell you that they have the same problems with their patients if they use certain shampoos, deodorants and perfumes... It's most of the time the scents of the detergents and other stuff, the more as they are made to stay even after a thorough rinsing! These are made from chemicals that irritate the skin and some even worse! And as nothing is scent-free anymore today, actually, people's immune-system is overreacting against these chemicals more and more often!
This is to be seen when people who use natural bar-soap for showering and do not use any perfume and who wash with special detergents (i.e. PERSIL sensitive) and who leave the softener away as well, do not have these skin-problems but will have it immediately returned when switching back to scented soap or softener or shower-gel and shampoo as well as perfumes and other stuff!
My mate and I never had any problems with our skin until we brought a package TIDE with bleach from New York home and washed with it... Our skin became dry and itchy and we had to stop using it; now it's standing in the cellar...

Ralf


Post# 222286 , Reply# 38   7/13/2007 at 04:24 (6,103 days old) by mrx ()        

I would agree there the scents could potentially cause problems, also some of the optical brighteners ..

As for the scents, I know that some people who react to Bold but not Ariel even though the two have almost identical ingredients. Same with Persil and Surf


However, many people do have problems with particular surfactants and some rinse cycles can be pretty pathetic.

Ironically, it's often much worse in delicate cycles with many people use for delicate items which may be worn much closer to your skin e.g. underwear

The key to good rinsing seems to be the interim spin or, if that's not possible plenty of water.

As for allergies, I think it's really a case of finding the detergent that you don't react to and sticking with it. Bio/Non-Bio doesn't come into it.

E.g. I react very badly to Persil non bio! Yet don't react at all to the bio version!!!



Post# 222304 , Reply# 39   7/13/2007 at 07:42 (6,103 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
MRX

Hi, MRX, that is intersting and is defenitely a proof for the theory of the scents as the elicitor of the skin-reactions!

Yes, you are right in saying so about these modern "rinse cycles" that actually do not deserve the name rinse at all, do they?
Best is: a good amount of water in each rinse PLUS an intermediate spin - and this not only twice or thrice but four or five times!

Ralf



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