Thread Number: 13779
Bad News About High Efficiency Washers 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 237128   9/18/2007 at 11:22 (6,058 days old) by technigeek ()        

When I was a teenager in the 1960’s, I worked as a maintenance man in an apartment building and I’ve always been interested in fixing appliances and how they work. Since then, I‘ve acquired a lot of knowledge on the subject of mechanical engineering, and I was contacted to be an expert witness in a class action lawsuit against the makers of the new “High Efficiency” (HE) washers. These class actions provided part of the information in the following article in Consumer Reports:

www.consumerreports.org/cro/appli...

The main complaint about these HE washers is that they don’t use enough water to get the clothes clean after going through the cycle once. In many cases, the clothes have to be run through twice and sometimes the rinse cycle has to be repeated. It’s the same problem as experienced with the low flow toilets – they don’t use enough water to get the job done the first time. The laundry just gets rolled up like a cinnamon roll then the drum reverses and rolls it up in the opposite direction.

In addition, the lack of enough water and the “damp washing” technique causes excessive abrasion between the clothes which generates a huge amount of lint which forms a sludge that is not completely flushed out of the machine during the spin-drain cycle. This sludge gradually builds up between the drum and the outer tub and it forms mold and mildew.

Among other models, we tested the Whirlpool Calypso HE washer (now discontinued) for an equivalent of one year of use and it eventually quit working altogether to due to the pump becoming clogged up. We disassembled the machine and when we pulled out the basket (the drum which holds the clothes) we found about 7 pounds of caked sludge had accumulated in the bottom. The problem with sludge build up is common to both the front and top loading HE washers regardless of the manufacturer and it is directly attributed to the lack of filling with an adequate amount of water.

In addition to the sludge problem, most of the front loaders have problems with the front bearings (around the door) which causes the drum to break loose during the spin cycle – which is usually 1000 RPM or faster. If the front bearing goes out when the drum is spinning at 1000 RPM, the whole machine is smashed beyond repair. In fact, on another project I was working on, I took a trip to a large scrap metal yard and I noticed that there were two of the new front loading washers in the pile waiting to go through the steel shredder and magnetic separating process. The cabinet was not significantly damaged by being dumped off the recycling truck. However I was able to open the door and found the drum was completely seized up and distorted by what appeared to be a catastrophic bearing failure.

In the class action against Whirlpool and their Calypso machine, we got a $5 Million judgment and a $ 1-1/2 Million against Maytag because of the poor washing ability, build up of sludge and mold inside the machine, and catastrophic mechanical failures. The only thing that’s impressive about the HE washers is their fancy appearance over the old fashioned “box with a lid of the top”. Beyond their techy appearance, they are not worth paying over $400 for. Accordingly, given the high cost and poor reliability of these HE washers, consumers are very hesitant to buy them.

However, the appliance industry has organized a lobby which has given tons of “campaign contributions” to federal and state lawmakers in return for legislation which mandates that only HE washers can be sold. The rational being sold to the public is that the new washers are for water and energy conservation, they are supposedly “environmentally friendly”, and reduce greenhouse gases.

However, based on the experience California has gained with the low flow toilets, consumers are going to be forced to deal with these not-so-great washers for many years to come.


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Post# 237131 , Reply# 1   9/18/2007 at 11:39 (6,058 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

What is that s***t???
I can't believe that, maybe HE made in USA (all European washers are HE) aren't good at all!
As for front loaders (the only ones that I care...) I had a bearing failure only once in 22 years that I'm on this planet and that was an old machine in a rented flat.
Here I have a Philco machine that is 12 years old and still goes strong.
... I'd better stop otherwise somebody will ban me if i get really angry, there's no limit to how much somebody can be ignorant!!!

Post# 237137 , Reply# 2   9/18/2007 at 12:34 (6,058 days old) by seamusuk (Dover Kent UK)        
Some people...

 seamusuk's profile picture
Really need to get their facts right......

Front load machines have been pretty much standard in the UK/Europe for over 30 years. The bearings are at the BACK of the drum/tub- there are none round the door!.

The sludge is detergent residue caused by a combination of low temperature washes and use of liquid detergent- a service wash of a full measure of powder detergent and the hottest wash possible once a month should prevent this.

Having said that I must confess im not totally convinced by the videos ive seen of HE top loaders...

Seamus

Post# 237140 , Reply# 3   9/18/2007 at 12:51 (6,058 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
Isn't the "clean washer" setting designed to remove any accumulation of sludge etc? My Duet has this option. It uses quite a bit of water and really thrashes it around.

I do notice that the mesh screen "socks" that I use on the end of the drain hose do fill up with lint much faster than they ever did with my old TL machine and I'm replacing them more often, but if this is due to rough treatment of the clothing, that goes contrary to everything I've ever heard about how FL machines are better on clothes.

Post# 237165 , Reply# 4   9/18/2007 at 15:19 (6,057 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Absolute Crap

 Hi Technigeek,

Interesting that you join as a member, and then within 24 hours compose a ridiculous post like this.

Most good quality FL HE machines work fine with 15L or so per fill, I agree that TL HE machines will always have more issues, but to claim that all FL machines dont work and fail prematurely is going beyond ignorant.

Secondly, low flow toilets can and do work. The Standard in AU has been a 6L full flush and a 3L half flush for the last 20 years. The new generation, of which I have 3, is now 4.5L for a full flush and 3L for the half. I've never had any issues with particulate matter not being removed the first time. Perhaps if the US switched to a flush down model, rather than stupid vaccum based designs, the problem would go away.

Please go back to wherever you came from, and think before you go spouting foundationless generalisations in future.

Regards

Nathan

Post# 237171 , Reply# 5   9/18/2007 at 16:01 (6,057 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        
I subscribe to Consumer Reports and read the washer reports

 I believe that CR said that they could no longer recommend any TOP LOADING machines due to poor washing ability and/or exhorbitant price (because of new energy and water rules). This was the first time in decades that they could not give a "recommended" rating to any TOPLOADER.

That said, they did give "recommended" ratings to several FRONT LOADERS, and quite a few were given good to excellent ratings on cleaning ability.

Here is the text from CR itself:

"Lower prices have helped traditional top-loaders outsell better-performing front-loaders. But the differences in washing ability have become more dramatic this year because of stricter energy standards. Indeed, for the first time in years, we can't call any washer a Best Buy because models that did a very good job getting laundry clean cost $1,000 or more. If your budget is limited, consider waiting for prices to come down. But if you need a washer now and can live with mediocre washing results, consider the top-loading Whirlpool WTW5540S[W], $400, or the front-loading Frigidaire Gallery LTF2940E[S] (Lowe's) or GLTF2940E[ ], each $750, or LG WM1814C[W], $800. "

They gave "recommended" status (marked with an asterisk) to the Duet 9400, Bosch 500, and LG WM0642H. In addition, they gave qualified recommendations to three lower priced machines as detailed in the paragraph above. In their tests, all machines with good to excellent cleaning ability cost $1000 and up, which is why no washer was labelled a "Best Buy".

Read the CR text CAREFULLY. It implies that differences in cleaning ability (between top and front loaders) have widened (in favor of front loaders), and that no top loader does a good job cleaning anymore. However, the article does NOT state that no top loaders clean well. It does state that no machines under one thousand dollars cleaned at the good to excellent level, with the possible exception of the Frigidaire 2940 or LG 1814. And no machine was called "best buy" because they base that award on a combination of quality and price.

Post# 237173 , Reply# 6   9/18/2007 at 16:04 (6,057 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        
ps to brisnat81

 I wish Australia would switch to vacuum toilet models....everywhere I go in Australia, I fill the sinks and watch them drain to observe the Corilus effect as the water swirls clockwise. I did the same at Kingsford Smith right after landing on my first trip down under, and was crushed to learn they had flush down toilets that don't allow the water to funnel and swirl.

;)

Post# 237175 , Reply# 7   9/18/2007 at 16:16 (6,057 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
What CR did say was that most front loaders sold today are not as gentle with washing as in the past, which is a natural occurance of using less water. However one wonders how CR loaded it's front loaders, that is were they mixing towels with shirts, and so forth.

Top loading washing machines were handicaped in that most simply cannot wash as before due to water restrictions. You cannot do laundry in any sort of "immersion" technique if one does not have adequate water for immersion to take place.

Have seen photos of muck and such stuck onto washing machine outer drums, but much of that was caused by factors ranging from soap/detergent use to water quality; and of course failing to use hot water often enough to disslove all the muck and soap in the first place.

L.

Post# 237186 , Reply# 8   9/18/2007 at 17:06 (6,057 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I believe CR's report of less-than-gentle fabric handling on a couple of front-loaders was due to their extra-long wash cycles. My Frigidaire FLer's longest cycle is 55 minutes, only 18 of which are for the wash portion.

Post# 237191 , Reply# 9   9/18/2007 at 17:49 (6,057 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Its a different experience

 Hi Passat,

It was an interesting experience, experiencing a vaccum toilet for the first time. I'm sorry ours dont swirl properly :)

The hotel we stayed at in SF had new low flush toilets. It got to the point that we would stand there and beg for the flush to be successfull, and usually by the 2nd or 3rd flush it would've worked. Its quite odd to need to spend so much time, watching particulate matter swirling around in a vortex :)

The hotel we stayed at in NY had old style toilets, and it was a single flush each time. :)

Choice has just released its annual reliability reports. It rates Miele and Bosch as the most reliable machines, but interestingly also finds that there is no appreciable difference between TL and FL machines in regards to reliability. In 2004, only 32% of Australians owned a FL, in 2007 this has increased to 42%

Miele Bosch and F&P would be bought again by owners, however significantly fewer people would purchase a WHIRLPOOL, LG, MAYTAG or ARISTON again. The most common comment in regards to Ariston, is that it breaks down too often.

The TL best buys were all F&P's, the FL Best Buys were 1 Miele, 2 Bosch, a Blanco, Electrolux and an LG. They bag Samsungs nantechnology, and also raise concerns about its safety, due to a lack of testing.

I'm taking my mother shopping tomorrow night, to get a new baby Miele. I converted her to FL washing 6 months ago, and the old Bosch that I had aquired for her, has finally died. In Brisbane we are being asked to keep our water consumption down at 140L per person per day, I cant see how anyone could manage that with a top loader.

Post# 237195 , Reply# 10   9/18/2007 at 18:20 (6,057 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
But there is a lawsuit

 There is a lawsuit that has been settled. Against Whirlpool/Kenmore Calypso Machines.

The european machines probably have less problems because they are smaller in capacity and use proportionally more water per volume of clothing.

Martin

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 48bencix's LINK
Post# 237198 , Reply# 11   9/18/2007 at 18:35 (6,057 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        
brisnat81

 Bonza on ya, mate. So you're a banana bender, eh? (I speak pretty good Strine for a Seppo....). Here in California we are encouraged to conserve water. We have no worries at home with our 6 liter (1.5 gallon) toilets....the trick is to hold down the lever until the entire tank has emptied. If you release the lever too soon, you get only a partial flush. I wouldn't come the raw prawn with ya, mate, it's all in how you use the lever.

En route to Sydney the first time, I kept checking the Coriolus effect in the bathroom sink. When the funnel began to swirl clockwise, I called my travelling companions so they too could witness the miracle. A few moments later, the caption chimed in on the PA system to inform us that we were now south of the Equator. So you can imagine my deep disappointment in the toilets at Kingsford-Smith Airport. ;)

Post# 237200 , Reply# 12   9/18/2007 at 19:10 (6,057 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        
In defense of OP

 Keep in mind that AU and UK washers are low-water use--but they use enough. Here in the US, the front loaders barely get the clothes wet.

Post# 237205 , Reply# 13   9/18/2007 at 19:44 (6,057 days old) by irishwashguy (Salem,Oregon.............A Capital City)        
My suggestion would be to buy a good frontloader

 irishwashguy's profile picture
That is about all I could say. With the implemation of an internal water heater, it does help to break down dirt, and do away with detergent build up. I love my washer, they were spendy, you, in the long run get what you pay for, remember , they did have frond loaders back in the day, and there are lots of laundries in the states that only have front loaders, many are here in the NW, and Portland, where water cost a premeium, it makes sence that we would want to use less water, and my washer does two to three rinses, on top of the interm spins which also remove soap and water.It is also built like a tank.


Post# 237209 , Reply# 14   9/18/2007 at 20:24 (6,057 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
It's the water temperature

 The reason the recent toploaders did so miserably is that when set on hot, the water is warm and when set on warm, it's barely above cold. This helps on the energy label, because it is mostly the heating of the water that drives the energy use up.

So with lower temperatures, the clothes don't get as clean. You could buy the toploader and either use a hose to fill it with hotter water or rewire it to fill with hotter water. It is not the washing action that is making the machine clean poorly. Purchasing a $300 to $400 washer over a $1000 washer can buy a lot of hot water. Of course as energy costs rise further, the savings of a more expensive machine will be greater.

At some point there is a minimum of water to do the job, you can't go lower. As mentioned, the usual front loader cycle uses at least 2 rinses, vs. 1 for the typical toploader. And somehow the lint needs to be dealt with. Any type of agitation will break down the fibers, and that is what most lint is. At least some older machine designers realized that and had systems like GE filter-flo and Whirlpool self-cleaning built-in filters. The old Bendix front loaders had a removeable trap which trapped an amazing amount of lint and incidently coins and such that were left in the clothing.

Martin

Post# 237215 , Reply# 15   9/18/2007 at 21:27 (6,057 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
All things in moderation.

toggleswitch's profile picture
~Here in the US, the front loaders barely get the clothes wet.

I find it bizarre that we have gone from one extreme to the other.



Post# 237221 , Reply# 16   9/18/2007 at 21:49 (6,057 days old) by ~sudsshane ()        
Lg Tromm Front load machines.

 My LG front load machine is just wonderful. I have had it nearly a year and have had no problems whatsoever. It does an awesome job and my clothes have never been cleaner. so, opinions are like as*h*les, everyone has one.

Post# 237223 , Reply# 17   9/18/2007 at 22:15 (6,057 days old) by zipdang (Portland, OR)        

zipdang's profile picture
I think it's interesting when front-load HE machines are trashed for their low water usage. I own such a machine, and it doesn't "wet wipe" or "damp wash" at all. There really is water in there! Those tilted tubs are deceiving; they may look waterless at the front of the tub near the window, but at the rear of the tub there are several inches of water. I used to have a White-Westinghouse front loader from the pre-HE era; it even had a water level control dial. It used more water than today's HE front-loaders, but quite honestly it didn't get clothes any cleaner. In fact, it washed no better than a top loader and was a horribly slow spinner, which meant clothes took longer to dry.

It takes some adjustment going from a traditional top-loader to a high-efficiency front-loader, and my guess is that most people who make the change don't do all of their research to properly adjust their washing habits. Too much detergent and improper sorting, both of which can lead to excessive linting, are likely to blame. We're an informed group here, but that doesn't mean everyone else is.

Post# 237229 , Reply# 18   9/18/2007 at 22:55 (6,057 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Generalities

 johnb300m's profile picture
I'm chalking that whole rant up to generalities.
It is not fair the lump all HE front loaders into your accusation.
Now all I can comment on is my own experience. And it contradicts what you have written here Mr.TechniGeek.
I am an Industrial Engineer, so I too am no slouch with the mechanicals. Below are my findings and ratings (subjective of course to personal observation).

I've grown up with a Maytag LA511. It uses ALOT of water on XL load and washes "quite well." It has an "in agitator" lint filter which catches alot of debris, but not much lint. No it's not faulty, because the Maytag Neptune dryer it's mated to only has half a screen-full of lint. So the wear in the LA511 is "acceptable" and not excessive...based on my observation.
LA511: washes "quite well" (8/10)

Upon entering college, I was thrust into a new realm of laundry; the college laundry room, equipped with SpeedQueen front loaders. They would have 2 post rinses and when observing washers that were broken with standing water, looked like they used a fair amount of water. I washed my clothes in these machines for 2 years. And found them "acceptable" washers. They got the clothes clean, but I think had too short of wash periods to get tough stains out. One caveat, they were ALWAYS broken. Mainly to rear bearing failure due to students dumping full capfulls of standard detergent.
SpeedQueen FL: washes "acceptable" (6/10)

Moving out of the dorms and to an apartment, I've now experienced Maytag Neptune FLs at the local laundromat. This, is my favorite washer. The Neptunes wash quite well and are good at getting alot of (not all) tough stains out. The Neptunes I think are some of the most thirsty FLs out there too, so that means they rinse quite well with 3 post rinses usually. My aunts have a first gen. Neptune pair and they did have to have the pully, wax motor and bearing repaired mostly under warranty. And since then it's been perfect according to them. I'd go out on a limb and call the Neptune the "more reliable" FL out there.
Maytag Neptune FL: washes very good. (9/10)

On both front loaders I've used, I've never noticed any adverse signs of clothing wear. Understanding how a FL works, it makes very little sense to me that a properly operating FL would wear clothes more than a thrashing TL...even the slow helical drive machines beat the crap out of the clothes more than a FL would.

I will believe a lawsuit of sorts against Whirlpool on the Calypso machines. I've never really heard good things about them. I hear alot of them break before 3 years. That in itself deserves a lawsuit, especially for how expensive of a machine they were.

Don't generalize.
All you know is what you know. It's impossible to know everything. Knowledge is a limit as it approaches zero. You're always heading there, but you'll never get there.

Post# 237245 , Reply# 19   9/19/2007 at 01:05 (6,057 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
Would it be this the solution!?

 The level of water during the rinse cycles rises upper than the bearing, it would be half-window of the lid in FL.

Alwasy said! You save TL confort and get the FL efficiency with a machine like that...unfortunately they're not been produced any long...this was the first in the 50 and lasted in production until the 90...then no more!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO vivalalavatrice's LINK
Post# 237251 , Reply# 20   9/19/2007 at 03:09 (6,057 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Oh well, Diomede, one can always get a standard top-loader horizontal axis machine and put it long side against the wall and mimic yours ;)

I'm still too mad at TechniGeek to say anything even remotely different from an insult so I'd better stay silent!

I even wash cachemire swaters in my front loader! And stuff comes out clean and soft!

Post# 237253 , Reply# 21   9/19/2007 at 04:04 (6,057 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
my comment...

 Hi to all of you!
Here in Germany so called FLs (actually it's better to talk about tumbler-washers or h-axis washers than of FLs as there are many TLs that have the horizontal drum tumble action as well - see message from "vivalalavatrice" above) are the most popular and the only available machine-type here for over 30 years.
There are some left-overs (tub-washers) from the former German Democratic Republic as well as from the time of the 1950s-1960s available at Ebay's, but that is collectors stuff or they are made of full plastic and only constructed for the use on camping sites or in week-end domiciles.
It's right to say so that former h-axis models here in Germany from the time before 1980 used between 150-160 liters of water per load of 4-4.5kg dry weight of laundry or even more, too, but that was stopped by strict regulations of the law and nowadays we have come up to the point that the usage of wash-water is so restricted that in some models left-overs of detergent and/or fluff and sand are to be found after a wash on the garments. A progression that I cannot call for good! Some models meanwhile have the opportunity to rise the water-level for personal liking, though.
But never I've heard of residues in h-axis washing-machines under normal usage conditions throughout my life (45 years now) here. Only thing is, in some areas where water is extremely hard and people are not using enough powder that a furring-up condition on the heater-element may occur after some years that can shorten the life of it.

Concerning the toilets:
I've never seen toilets with worse flushing-effects than in the States! These vaccuum bowls need a tremendous amount of water but often after the flush still some paper is floating on top of the water surface...
Best to me are the in Germany called flat-flushing toilets where no formula is droping with a splash into the water underneath your ass, spilling water or water-urine mixture against your bottom...yakk!!
Flat-flushers use only 4-6 liters and were once the most popular and only known toilet bowls here in Germany. Deep-flushers came into fashion during the 1970-1980 in Germany and are nowadays the most installed toilets here but use twice as much water or need double flushing to get everything away. Although I have to admit that constructors have developed also bowls with much less water consumption today.
But I would not like to have these bowls in my house for medical reasons!
What about the yearly control for occult blood in the faeces? Does somebody here love to sit over a page of paper on the floor to get some faeces dry for that medical control? And what about the parental controlling of children's faeces for worms? This is not possible in deep-flushing bowls!

Ralf

Post# 237273 , Reply# 22   9/19/2007 at 08:19 (6,057 days old) by easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)        
Don't understand the problem

 All I know is I had a Whirlpool Duet set for over 5 years. The washer cleaned beautifully, ran quietly, and spun the clothes nearly dry. I had NO problems with either the washer or dryer. Sold them 2 years ago and they are still in use with no problems.

Seems to me the problem with sludge would be caused from too much detergent. I've used Sears powder for over 30 years and never had a problem. There are no suds, but you can tell the soap is working by the feel of the water.

AND the front load Duet washer is German made.

Jerry Gay

Post# 237281 , Reply# 23   9/19/2007 at 09:02 (6,057 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I do believe that with front loaders some allowances for frictional wear on fabrics must be considered. This knowledge came to me after my mother washed a synthetic pullover sweater of mine with a bath towel because they were both gold in color. The sweater suffered severe pilling. This was in a 1970s Westinghouse front loader. Even with the higher water levels used in those machines and even though those were the only two items in the machine, there was rubbing If she had turned the sweater inside out, the piling would not have happened. I never noticed it on loads of similar weight and texture fabrics. Clothing damage in newer large tumbler washers might come from the user trying to cram everything in one super load and washing heavier fabrics with less sturdy fabrics and not closing zippers, etc. before washing. Sufficient detergent makes the water and clothing slippery so there is less friction and sufficient detergent not only helps hold dirt in suspension, but also helps separate lint and hair from the fabrics making it easier to flush both types of soil out of the laundry. I believe that if you practice some common sense when using any washing machine, you will not see too much damage to the items being washed. If you use the correct detergent properly and do not try to wash everything in stone cold water, you should not see deposits of gunk and sludge in the machine.

Old appliance dealers (who sold other brands) used to swear that Frigidaire washers tore the arms off shirts. I have never seen that, but like other legends, there might have been an instance involving an old shirt with the under arm area weakened by years of attack from sweat and body oils. Maybe it was not washed frequently in a wringer washer since laundry was a bigger production with those machines than with an automatic. Then the early 1950s brought a Frigidaire washer to the home and sure enough, when untangling some twisted tangled shirt sleeves, the fabric under the arms of the shirt gave way, but healthy fabric with good stitching was not torm apart by Frigidaire washers.

I also admit that I have not seen a domestic front load tumble action washer with front bearings. I have seen lots of clothes dryers with front bearings or slides, but the rear bearing on clothes dryers is nowhere near as large and heavy duty as in a tumbler washer, nor in the dryers do you usually see spiders running from the bearing to the vanes of the tubs with rods extending from the spider at the back of the tub to the tub frame at the front.

Post# 237289 , Reply# 24   9/19/2007 at 09:55 (6,057 days old) by andrewinorlando ()        

Have a Kenmore Calypso, going on 7 years old now...it works beautifully, washes clothes cleaner than my old Frigidaire Gallery FL machine, and have had absolutely zero sludge problems with it. What else can you ask for?

Post# 237291 , Reply# 25   9/19/2007 at 10:14 (6,057 days old) by johnny (Jacksonville, FL)        

I cant believe that front loaders have these problems.
I am using an Electrolux 8Kg (I dont remember the model) and a 30years old IZOLA washer. No bearing problems. My Izola is running the last 30 years without any problem. I have changed only the pump.

about the "lint" from the soap if you read the manual from a front loader you will read this at FAQ section:

Q: The drum smells and the door seal gasket has lint of soap.

A: Set the washer to Cottons 95c and run a full wash cycle
without clothes

John B

Post# 237305 , Reply# 26   9/19/2007 at 11:14 (6,057 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi)        

Why did CU bash today's top-loaders and praise the front loaders for washing ability then say the opposite in the "sludge article"?

Post# 237307 , Reply# 27   9/19/2007 at 11:29 (6,057 days old) by revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)        
Comment for Lederstiefel1

 revvinkevin's profile picture
Here in the U.S. we do not have any top-loading H-axis/tumble washers available (that I know of), all are front loading. While we do have top loading "high efficiency" washers, they all have a vertical drum.

This is why we refer to the top load and front load machines they way we do.

Side note: Fisher & Paycal does now have a TOP-loading H-axis DRYER that is rather neat, though I have heard nothing about it's performance.

Post# 237310 , Reply# 28   9/19/2007 at 12:12 (6,057 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
~Here in the U.S. we do not have any top-loading H-axis/tumble washers available.



Not well-known, but available!

:-)

CLICK HERE TO GO TO toggleswitch's LINK
Post# 237314 , Reply# 29   9/19/2007 at 12:37 (6,057 days old) by 2drumsallergy ()        
An Engineers View

 Hi Folks,
I don't know what's going on across the pond as we really don't have these problems in the UK and we have been using front loaders for more than 40 years.

As an Engineer I have never witnessed a build-up of lint in a front loader however I have seen a greasy film on machines where the owner uses too little detergent and/or too much softener, this is exacerbated by low temperature washes and the use of liquid detergents. I find that machines used mostly with powder detergent are usually perfectly clean inside. Hard water no doubt causes problems in some areas, as I live and work in a soft water area I have not seen any issues relating to water deposits.
After the wash leave the machines door open, wipe out the door seal (Tub shell gasket to give it its full name), always use enough detergent to keep the soils suspended and don't over dose the softener and finally once a month run the hottest longest cycle (Or a maintenance cycle if your machine has one) with POWDER detergent and no laundry, this will remove any deposits that may be accumulating.

As for gentleness when loaded correctly and the appropriate cycle for the fabric is used front loaders are very gentle on laundry, however like any product improper use will will cause problems. I own a Whirlpool 3LSC8255EQ1 DD Top Loader and likewise when loaded and operated correctly it is also very gentle, however an overloaded Top Loader will result in excessive lint and damaged laundry. Vertical agitation relies on suspension and free circulation of the laundry in the washing solution, when a Top Load washer is overloaded the laundry cannot move freely through the agitator vanes and therefore can be damaged.

David

Post# 237329 , Reply# 30   9/19/2007 at 14:25 (6,056 days old) by dixieland (Memphis)        

Ok - so the U.S. Detergent Market is going liquid (which is considered "bad" for a FL Machine) while our Washer Market is unapologetically going FL.... just laughable.

Post# 237338 , Reply# 31   9/19/2007 at 15:16 (6,056 days old) by liberator1509 (Ireland)        
Beware the marketing spin

 I find it very interesting that so much is made of front loaders being gentler than top loaders - I'd love to see some scientific evidence of this as I'm convinced that this is more marketing spin than anything else. Damning the agitator as 'rough on laundry' is very convenient if you're trying to sell an alternative system.

If you study the action of a tumbling washer, it is apparent that the action is actually mechanically rough. As the laundry is lifted and dropped in the drum, it is subject to quite strong mechanical forces - particularly torsion and friction. In effect, this type of action relies on extreme flexing the fibres of the cloth - rather akin to hand-washing down by the river - a modern-day equivalent of wringing the fabric and beating it against a rock. By comparison, in a conventional top loader (correcttly loaded as David says in his message), the agitator is primarily designed to create water currents to drive through the laundry, though of course the agitator fins will also exert some stress on the fabric, especially if over-loaded. The point is that BOTH systems exert considerable mechanical stress on fabrics - and the longer cycles in a front loader (about 20 mins of action as opposed to about 6 in a top loader) increase wear. For my money, clothes (cotton shirts in particular) come out completley entangled and very creased from our Bosch front loader - far more so than from the defunct Hotpoint top loader. This is without going into the effect of very high spin speeds on fabrics - suffice to say that for the same cotton shirts, reducing the spin to 600 rpm might mean more time on the line or in the dryer, but saves hours of ironing...ditto for cotton bed sheets.

I'm sure that the Fisher and Paykel/Whirlpool Cabrio system is on the right track - the idea of pre-treating in a high concentration hot solution before adding cold water to agitate should work very well. If this system used an internal water to control the pre-treating part of the programme, I'm sure the results would be superb. I hope the designers develop it further, and bring it to Europe too!

Post# 237448 , Reply# 32   9/20/2007 at 04:06 (6,056 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

In reading all of these entries on damage to clothes from washers--isn't most of the "wear" on clothes due to actually WEARING them and not the action of your washer-FL or TL?I have had to replace a regular potty with a low-flow one-in a townhome I use to live in.The low flow one was a Kohler that cost $250.It did work rather well-but not as well as the 6 gal water hogs I have in the house I am in now.These will flush logs down!Plan to keep em!I am in favor of SCRAPPING the water and energy saving measures in washers-let the marketplace and consumers decide.At how expensive some "designer" FL machines are-would be cheaper for me to send my clothes to the neighborhood cleaners!Its like the idea of expensive lawn tractors-instead of buying one-may be cheaper to pay a lawn service to do the lawn!

Post# 237451 , Reply# 33   9/20/2007 at 05:54 (6,056 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
my comment...

 Hi all of you!
Just a short comment by myself!

Liberator1509 and 2DrumsAllergy/David you are soooo right to say so! I totally agree with you!
My mate has still his FL (h-axis-washer) and I have meanwhile collected six other machines which are ALL tub-washers (TwinTubs, SingleTub and V-Axis-Washers) and we both LIKE them because they are sooo gentle (if not overloaded, which will end up in the absolute opposite!!)
Tumblers are very vigorous and have the highest wash-performance of washer at all - but to me the strongest wear on the fabrics as well - especially with the new machines with extremely long wash-cycles with very small amouts of wash-water and huge drums (10kg)!

Ralf

Post# 237457 , Reply# 34   9/20/2007 at 07:02 (6,056 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Wear On Textiles

 launderess's profile picture
Is caused mainly by abrasion/friction. Thus a pair of jeans worn for rough work versus another only for "dress" will probably wear faster.

Bed linen is a good example of wear and usage. In general, unless one is doing some very unusual things in bed, linen should wear for quite along time, especially if it is made from pure line. However if those same bed lines are treated harshly during the laundering process, they will wear, and in some cases wear quite quickly. Back when laundry meant beating textiles with sticks, against rocks, with paddles etc, linen would often be in shreds within a year from such rough treatment. It certianly would have been darned and patched to death to cover up the damage.

This is why overloading any washing machine, repeatedly will cause wear and damage to textiles, especially if a top loading washer is used. Items simply are thrashed against the beater instead of water being moved through them/moved through water.

H-Axis washers use a version of "beating laundry against a rock", and can indeed under certian circumstances cause wear and damage to textiles. This one reason why certain cycles such as "Delicates" and "Permanent Press" advise to load the machine one half/less than full, and or use large amounts of water in relation to the load. The excess water, often combined with gentle drum movements cushions textiles to prevent wear. It is also why detergents for wools and delicates for use in H-Axis machines tend to create more froth than normal "HE" detergents. The froth cushions the wash action thus giving gentle cleaning.

Post# 237480 , Reply# 35   9/20/2007 at 10:08 (6,056 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
my comment...

 Partly right, Launderess!
If you overload a drum-washer (FL) the wash-action will be hampered but textiles will have the gentlest washing available - laudry will only tunr round without any falling - and stay unwashed - whereas the washing action in an overloaded agitato-washer will ruin the clothes by thrashing them an shredding them!
The reason for half loads in FL in gentle programmes is that they should swim a bit more but you cannot fill the machine more than to half of the drum otherwise the wash-action will stop (try it by filling it with a hose by hand!) so to imitate tub washing action they fill to hte half and only put half or even a fourth of the full load into the drum and you have the same effect as in a TL...swim-wash-action!
The fact with the foam-cushion is correct - example: Perwoll for woollens and silks!
Ralf

Post# 237499 , Reply# 36   9/20/2007 at 12:34 (6,056 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

Hi Brisnat,

I am always a little suspicious of CR evaluations. I have a very strong feeling that much of what they publish is quite subjective in nature. How does what they do reflect my laundry practices and needs? I am also a little curious to know how 42% of Australian households suddenly come to have front loading washing machines, when only last year 80% still owned top loaders. Sales stats still indicate higher sales ratios for top loaders over front loaders, unless, of course, CR meant that sales of front loaders have increased by 42% in 2007.

These days dollar value seems to have little bearing on quality/durability, nor the level of after-sales support. If we want to be environmentally savvy we need to nip the current throw-away mentality in the butt. It is pretty useless to worry about energy efficiency/environmental impacts, when on average we now have to replace new appliances in less than a decade. It isn't enough to be bedazzled by the good-news stuff on the sales specs. Consumers need to understand the entire life cycle and real environmental/financial costs of the new products they consume. Curiously, on our 'not good enough' website the few washing machine related complaints are usually about front loaders (namely LG and Whirlpool).

In reality here in Australia we've managed to keep ourselves clean and tidy using top loaders all these years. I don't understand why some people have to turn this issue into some kind of superiority trip, as if they know something that nobody else has been able to figure out yet. There will always be people who'll get optimal results from their appliances and those who won't. The superiority of one type of machine over the other is ultimately nothing more than a moot point. This issue is not really about laboratory experiments with performance outcomes measured on microscopic levels, but consumer expectations and satisfaction. In reality there are no accurate, consistent and reliable statistics regarding environmental and cost factors between both types of wahing machines. Every website that deals with this issue mainly publishes the interpretations and opinions of their authors.

Cheers

Rapunzel

Post# 237549 , Reply# 37   9/20/2007 at 18:33 (6,055 days old) by andrewinorlando ()        

Rapunzel -

Very well said.

Post# 237554 , Reply# 38   9/20/2007 at 19:12 (6,055 days old) by vintagesearch ()        

no offense to the frontload fans but i would much rather stick to my regular old 2000ish kenmore 80 series belive me i put sometimes filthy socks in and they come out clean i ONE wash! the only frontloaders i like are laundromat ones like the maytags or wascomats they actually use water and you can use regular detergent and NEVER go off balance! maybe manufacturers should copy the idea from commercial laundry manufacture companies!

Post# 237571 , Reply# 39   9/20/2007 at 21:34 (6,055 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        
Why shouldn't consumers demand any less than commercial

If those Wascomats, Speed Queens, etc. were 120v I would have gladly paid thousands to have one in my home.

Why are FLs so dumbed down for home use? The ones at the laundromat have steel doors and hinges, no special soap requirements, cycles that people actually need, no nasty rubber boots, use adequate amounts of water and great results in only a 30 minute cycle.

...pausing to catch breath! :)

Post# 237597 , Reply# 40   9/20/2007 at 22:39 (6,055 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Commercial front loaders are built to a much different standard, and thus cost more than what the average American consumer would pay for a washing machine. If there wasn't a large market for high end Miele washing machines that ran into the mid-thousand range, they certianly wont' pony up for a sturdy built, but expensive front loader.

Commercial front loaders basically are built to last the duration(the way washing machines used to be built), and are easily servicable with off the shelf replacment parts.

Post# 237604 , Reply# 41   9/21/2007 at 00:20 (6,055 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        
Old news is bad news...

 sudsmaster's profile picture
This is OLD news; these machines were introduced in the late 90's and early 21st century. They have been surpassed by later HE washers, both top and front loading. It's a shame Technigeek didn't seem to know anything about later HE washers sold in the USA in the past five years, nor about the very reliable, efficient, and effective European front loaders which have been available here for a few decades.

Technigeek chose to mention two of the worst HE washer models made in the past 10 years or so. The Calypso was a notoriously unreliable machine. Bad basic design, it would seem. Pump problems, and then the "nutating" u-joint mechanism was inherently prone to failure, or so it would seem. It was a unique and short-lived design, and in no way representative of the HE washer phenomenon.

The first and second generation solid-door Maytag Neptunes had a number of engineering issues. The Neptune wasn't an inherently unreliable design, but the initial manufacturing/engineering decisions cheapened various components too much and the rest is history. By the third generation, however, the 5000B, 6500 and 7500, the machines were pretty well sorted out, but it was still a very good idea to get an extended warranty. By this time, wax motors were replaced with solenoids, a drain had been added to the door boot, an internal heater was available on the top model (highly recommended) to ensure 130F temps, a fast tumble-flush action was added to the last rinse to help purge the outer drum of lint/debris, the quirky and failure-prone motor assembly was replaced with a far more reliable design, the recirculating pump was omitted (eliminating a point of failure and it wasn't really needed), etc. I have a Neptune 7500 and have NEVER had a mold/odor problem in the drum/tub. Some mold appeared in the detergent dispenser after some six years of use, but it's easily wiped away. Hey, my shower gets more mold if it's not regularly cleaned. The thing washes very well, has plenty of water, doesn't rip up fabrics, and is easy on the eyes.

If you overload a front loader, then yeah, the load may ball up and refuse to unwind. So don't overload it next time. Guess what? A traditional top loader will reward overloading with lousy washing results as well, if not a much shortened machine life.

Avoid jumping on the bandwagon to be among the first to purchase a new "revolutionary" design: it's sure to have major teething problems. This seems to go for most techie products, from cars to computers.

Post# 237620 , Reply# 42   9/21/2007 at 02:14 (6,055 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
what we all forgot...

 There's one aspect we all forgot here, to me!
Why on earth, if trying to avoid unnecessary waste of energy to heat up the wash-water, don't we install as fast as possible solar panels on our roofs or facades of the houses we live in to get warm or even hot water WITHOUT using any man-made energy?? This is especially logical in countries like Australia, southern parts of the States and Europe, etc.!
Also the old technique of "suds-saver" for TLs would be so much helpful, wouldn't it? Noboby would have to throw out the TLs in such cases and replace them by FLs!

Ralf

Post# 237623 , Reply# 43   9/21/2007 at 04:12 (6,055 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

How'bout the revival of twin spinner tub washers such as the Easy?That could be an alternative to FL washers and safer than wringers.The Easy wash tub could do a few to several loads before it has to be drained and replaced.Yes-would like to see a return of suds savers for TL washer lovers.And of course examination of EXTERNAL use of water such as watering,washing cars and filling of swimming pools-this can use more water than Many-many TL or FL washer loads.Keep in mind even a small portable swimming-bathing pool can hold more water than several TL washer loads!

Post# 237624 , Reply# 44   9/21/2007 at 04:58 (6,055 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
Germany is calling again...lol

 Well, Rex Oliver, you are right, but have to add that washing a car in Germany isn't aloud anymore as long as you do not have a grease and oil catching gadget in your drain-system like petrol-stations have here.....!!

And.....I own and use THREE twin-tubs for my washing and always postulated that they are the best washers ever made in man's history!
None more versatile - none more economical - none faster and none more interesting!

Ralf

Post# 237625 , Reply# 45   9/21/2007 at 05:30 (6,055 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)        
Amen to that!!

 twinniefan's profile picture
Lederstiefel1,
I could not agree with you more about twin tubs,I would not swap mine for the world as you say they are economical, faster and heaps more fun to use.
I know that over 1 million Hoovermatics were sold here in Australia a long time ago,sadly they were discontinued in the mid 1980's I think.
The trouble today is most people are just lazy and just want to throw their laundry in (mostly in 1 large unsorted load),set the machine and go away and do something else.
I must say though I am actually very tempted to go and buy a large top loader because I am sick and bloody tired of my state government telling me what is best for me and basically what I should and should not own
Cheers.
Steve.

Post# 237639 , Reply# 46   9/21/2007 at 07:25 (6,055 days old) by mr_jms ()        

Sudsmaster: I have the second Maytag Neptune model, purchased in May 1999. I have never had any issues with it, no services calls, no mold. Works great.

Post# 237759 , Reply# 47   9/21/2007 at 19:49 (6,054 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
Who wouldnt want a Wascomat for the home?

 First and foremost, Have you seen the prices for the new KITCHENAID PROLINE WASHERS AND DRYERS? They sure seem to rival a Wascomat in price or maybe even exceed it since we all know how many people out there will pay for a KA machine of any type sometimes for the WOW factor.

I would put my money on the Wascomat as having been manufactured and "perfected" after so many years!

Decodriveboy... don't wish for a 120 volt model for the home.. just have your electrician wire you a 220 volt outlet for the machine and check with a plumber to see if your drains can handle the machine. It tends to have a very large drain line plumbed to it and may not be easily adaptable to your current home. If I were building a brand new home, I would surely consider having the laundry room set up to accomodate a commercial unit. Heck, you get a nice concrete pedestal for the Wascomat and it you can always just put the domestic front loader on it until you can afford the Wasco.

Don't forget, you will need the commercial dryer too because of the increased wash load size! Hmmm, 80,000 btu/hr gas and who knows how many watts for the electric version.. 6-8 inch exhaust duct.. adequate hot water heater capacity...this sure looks like it can really costly. But not totally impossible!

Post# 237760 , Reply# 48   9/21/2007 at 20:04 (6,054 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
How Clean do we want our clothes?..My little secret theory!

 Many good points mentioned in all the comments here so far and no matter how these washers twist and turn our clothes, we are often disappointed in one or more ways with their washing abilities.

My theory is this and I tell this to anyone who rants and raves about their washers..

Forget about pound capacity of the washer..you can only stuff so much into any machine TL or FL..

I say, fill the machine completely with water first and let it start agitiating. Start adding items to the tub and stop when you do not see them freely circulating thru the clear water. If you add more, the circulating action will start to end and you start rubbing the clothes against each other.. Wear and tear and dirty clothes result.

So stop before it is too late, reset the timer and add your detergent and see if that makes for cleaner clothes.

On the Fl machines, I say go no more than 1/2 to 3/4 full in the tub and see how it works. The clothes should be able to tumble or float as some people said and all of the clothes will get adequately wet and washed and rinsed. It is easy to do with the glass windows.

I have seen people totally pack it in on a Wascomat and you can actually see that there are clothes all bunched up in the middle of this slurry of clothes that never or hardly get wet and nothing tumbles or floats, it just revolves like one big piece of laundry!

As always, whether it is laundry or dishes, its the right combination of time, temperature and water quantity and of course, proper loading!

Hope this helps

Post# 237776 , Reply# 49   9/21/2007 at 22:54 (6,054 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Most all commercial/laundromat washing machines come in a "soft-mount" line. Thee units are designed for OPL and other applications where installing a "pit" and or bolting down is not an option. However adding a suspension and pump system, makes these washers slightly more expensive than the already expensive (by consumer standards)commercial washing machines.

If one is willing to travel, there are always all sort and manner of commercial units on eBay, many times MIB or uncrated. Problems one forsees would be wiring (most all commercial washing machines run on 220v/3ph power), but then again there may be some small units designed for OPL,beauty shops and the like that run on normal 120v power. Or, they can take a page from Miele and others and run the 120v power and use types of inverters (if that is the correct term), to convert the single phase to three phase internally.

Post# 237784 , Reply# 50   9/22/2007 at 00:35 (6,054 days old) by ultramatic52 (Mexico City)        
Samsung FL

 Hi everyone. I bought a Samsung HE FL with the silver nano technology about 2 years ago. At the begining it appear to me that I used a very little water so I opened it by the top and turn the water level half a turn to the left. This raised the water level to where the drum starts and this has improved the washing ability tons. On the other hand, it never washed bad and by the time I started to use this washer, my whites are cleaner and last longer. I also have a Whirlpool Gold Catalyst TL which has been the best TL I´ve ever had.

I really think that the person who wrote first at this thread has no idea how FL´s work, since the one I own is direct drive and has no bearings at all and spins at 1200 RPM.

My grandfather had a Mexican FL called Crolls (BTW discontinued about 20 years ago, when the TL market started to grow, and because of capacity and shorter washing times) which lasted 45 years without having any bearing troubles. It had its motor replaced once and that was all. HE decided to buy a new one, because one of my cousins boyfriend, who is from Germany and is really tall, before marrying her, lived in my granpa´s house and because he had really big clothes the little Crolls (4 kg or 8 lb)was full with 2 of his pants, so they decided to get a TL Whirlpool which has performed flawlessly since.



Post# 237794 , Reply# 51   9/22/2007 at 06:28 (6,054 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Are you sure you would want to go through the trouble of trying to use a commercial 3Ph washer instead of a residentual one?I don't have that much to wash-unless you want to make money to pay for the machine washing your neighbors clothes.If you insist on using a 3ph commerical unit-you will need to get a RotoVertor or similar unit to converet home type single phase 230V to 3ph 230V-you will need to have your home power feed evaluated-and figure the cost of the rotoverter-its wiring-breaker and fuse boxes-etc.An electrician will need to do the work and no doubt it will need to be inspected and approved-and expect questions about the washer from the inspector.For home power feeds the washer size would be limited to only 3ph motors of only2-3hp at best.

Post# 237795 , Reply# 52   9/22/2007 at 06:33 (6,054 days old) by funguy10 ()        

I'd like to know more about the Catalyst washer. Could you post pics, videos, etc?

Post# 237798 , Reply# 53   9/22/2007 at 07:07 (6,054 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
DecodriveBoy

Many would debate how great the average coin operated/laundromat washing machine gives results. Remember the SQ front loader is based upon their coin op washer, cycles and all and they are not highly rated.

Laundromat washing machines have usually one cycle. Does not matter if one chooses "Normal/Cottons", "PP" or "Delicates"; the fills, cycles, tumbling action is all the same. What changes is merely the water temperature for washing. Now some newer laundromat washing machines with computer/processor controls have a bit more flexibility, but they are very pricey.

By and large laundromat washing machines are well built, but sturdy machines, simply designed to do simple laundry day in and day out for years on end. Nothing fancy mind you, just "washing" clothes.

Now if you really want to get fancy, there are commercial front loaders that have computer controls which allow all sorts of user programming, right down to tumbling direction/duration; but those machines are VERY expensive.

Why Three Phase Power For Commercial Front Loaders?

IIRC the story is that three phase motors are much more robust than single phase. They are also better suited to heavy loads and less likely to stall. Just the thing for when a Wascomat 50/lb washing machines goes right into spinning with an over full load of wet laundry. If you notice most if not all laundromat washing machines don't pfaff around about spinning the way their domestic cousins do; they simply rev up and away they go. That takes some power!

Post# 237799 , Reply# 54   9/22/2007 at 07:30 (6,054 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

My father has a commercial laundry, he does dry-cleaning but in the past did wet-cleaning too, his machine was a Electrolux something, it was huge, the bolts were 40 centimetres long and it had 6, two on each front corner and one in the back corners. It was a 15 kg machine and was 1,3 metres high and large, the power consumption was huge, the inbuilt heater was 10Kw and the motor 2,5Kw, glad that he discontinued it because it was power gready and failure prone. It didn't survive more than 6 years.

Post# 237837 , Reply# 55   9/22/2007 at 11:27 (6,054 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        
Three phase motors

 sudsmaster's profile picture
You may have noticed that most single phase medium to large AC induction motors (such as on home shop drill presses and older washing machines) give out an audible click as they start up and then spin down. This is the sound of a centrifugal switch. When first started, a special starting circuit in tandem with a capacitor gets the motor running. After it reaches a certain RPM, the centirfugal force trips the internal switch and turns the starting circuit off. Then the regular 110 or 220 single phase circuit takes over and runs the motor for as long as you like. The starting circuit is needed because for this particular type of motor, single phase current alone cannot get the motor spinning. This type of motor is called a split-phase AC induction motor. Smaller appliances like fans and hand mixers may use other designs, such as shaded pole, or even use brushes and commutators as in the universal motor design.

A three phase motor (and some types of smaller single phase motors) don't have this starting problem. The three phases can provide balanced and smooth impulses that create a rotating magnetic field. The three phase motor is simpler and more compact than a single phase motor of equivalent power, and runs smoother with less vibration. It will also typically last longer than a single phase motor.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO sudsmaster's LINK
Post# 237945 , Reply# 56   9/23/2007 at 00:24 (6,053 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The biggest thing about 3Ph versus single phase motors is efficiency-the 3 ph ones are more efficient even in the same horsepower and speed.and of course the 3ph motor doesn't require the starting equipment the single pahse one does-start switch,start cap,and start winding.And you can stall the 3ph one more-put a heavier load on it before it completely stalls-on the single phase ones-if you stall it-you can burn up the start cap,start winding and the centrifical start switch.Have seen this in the power tool repairs I used to do.It was common in the large masonry saws that had single phase motors-had to replace start caps on them often.Same with some air compressors whose unloader valves weren't working.and the three phase motor doesn't require the starting equipment because the staggered phases produce the twisting magnetic feild required to get the motor going.In the single phase ones the twisting feild was created by the action of the start cap,start winding and start switch.Centrifical start switches are normally set to release the start winding when the motor approaches 75-80 percent of its rated speed.Fans and blowers usually use a permenant split phase design-the motor has no centrifical start switch.At best just a small cap connected between the windings.It is an AC capacitor since it is in the circuit all the time.Oil filled.Fan and blower motors have low start torque-so the other start equipment isn't required.Contrast to a compressor or a washer or something where the motor is heavily loaded at start.Than the higher start torque from the split cap motor is required to get the load moving.3ph motors inherently have a high start torque.Sometimes this is limited to prevent equipment damage or surges on the power line feeding the motor.

Post# 238004 , Reply# 57   9/23/2007 at 09:59 (6,053 days old) by washertalk ()        

It is good to hear all the input that sets the record straight on the original blanket claim that all HE products are bad.

Yes there has been some products that apparently didn't work as well as hoped, like the Calypso. But there are many more that are far superior to old technology. It is certainly a worthwhile effort to economize and make more efficient products.

I love my new Duet. It does an EXCELLENT job. no regrets. I can wash things in it that I wouldn't have tried to with my 2000 TLer. and so quiet, and uses so little water.

Now lets do that for our cars and be rid of Fossil fuels and noisey engines. Can we imagine the day when living next to or near a freeway would not be objectable.

Post# 238120 , Reply# 58   9/23/2007 at 20:30 (6,052 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        
Thoughts

 I don't think that anyone objects to saving energy and helping the environment, and if some people are pleased with their HE machines then so be it. Although at the present point, for all their technology are not built to last more than a few years, and where do they go afterwards? To the landfill. How is that helping the planet?

Another issue is the lack of choice with HE machines. One ought to have the option to override the eco programming to wash as they feel is necessary. While some of the LG's do offer options that help in overriding (Pre-Wash, Water Plus), those add more time to already overlong cycles which can take hours to complete. I don't see the efficiency or energy savings in that.

Sometimes--in my view--old-fashioned is best.

Post# 238123 , Reply# 59   9/23/2007 at 20:45 (6,052 days old) by westyslantfront ()        

I love my top loading Whirltag. It is a great washer for
$398.00 rather than spending $1,200.00 each on front loaders.

Ross

Post# 238124 , Reply# 60   9/23/2007 at 20:49 (6,052 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        
Saw the Whirltag today at Sears

 And I also think it is very nice.

Post# 238159 , Reply# 61   9/24/2007 at 01:25 (6,052 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
I don't quite see why the LG "Water Plus" option would add much, if any, time to the cycle. Also, few front loaders take "hours" to complete a cycle. Most are done within an hour, and most can do rapid washes of lightly soiled items in 30 minutes. For example, the Neptune - the longest cycle I can set is about 109 minutes - the shortest is about 30 minutes. I puposely select the longest cycle for Whites, most of the cycles I run are about 60 minutes. Most front loaders seem to have plenty of wash/temp/spin options, so I don't quite get the complaint of lack of flexibility. The one thing most of them don't offer is overflow rinses - for good reason!!!

Post# 238213 , Reply# 62   9/24/2007 at 11:34 (6,052 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
Compare that

 Compare that with the 18 minute cycle that Frigidaire had for its commercial line. My Maytag AMP can go that low too if I wash for about 3 minutes.

But to face reality, I probably will get a front loader, such as Whirlpool Ht. That is when my Maytag Dependable care finally bites the dust. Given 14 loads a week, if I save 15 gallons a load, I will save about $120 per year, enough to pay for the Ht in about 10 years. (I am calculating the heating cost at 1 cent per gallon, the water cost is about 10 cents for about 100 gallons.)

Martin

Post# 238272 , Reply# 63   9/24/2007 at 18:46 (6,051 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
One has to wonder what were the specifics of the test that ended with seven pounds of sludge in a Calypso.

The final rinse water level is higher than the preceding wash/rinse phases.



For folks not familiar with Calypso's water use and action, notice in these video clips that water showers down the sides of the tub numerous times during the cycle. 60 RPM spin while wash and rinse water showers over the clothes should keep the tub flushed during normal use.

Each clip is about 5 MB, but only 15 seconds.

Running with no clothes:
Normal sump level during nutation
Nutation on heavy duty cycle
Water level in tub during nutation
60 RPM final rinse shower

Washing a load:
60 RPM wash water spray
Nutation
Spray rinse during final spin

Post# 238280 , Reply# 64   9/24/2007 at 19:40 (6,051 days old) by funguy10 ()        

That is footage of you second Calypso right? Could you show some vids inside the tub where all the action is?

Post# 238313 , Reply# 65   9/24/2007 at 22:40 (6,051 days old) by ultramatic52 (Mexico City)        
Hi funguy10

 Here are the URLs to the videos I posted in youtube of the Catalyst washer.



















Please let me know if you have troubles watching the videos.
If you have any questions don´t hesitate to ask.

Post# 238315 , Reply# 66   9/24/2007 at 23:18 (6,051 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Great vids, Glenn! An interesting and generally unseen perspective.

Post# 238335 , Reply# 67   9/25/2007 at 02:54 (6,051 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        
sorry had no time to be here again before...

 Sorry, had no time to be here for three days!

To you TWINNIEFAN/Steve.
I totally agree with you and want to say thanks for typing your opinion here, too!
I have three twinnies and I really LOVE to use them!

To you STEVET:
You are 100% right in saying so! Our landlady worked for a big international textile company (ENKA) in the laboratories where they tested fibres, garments and also washing methods as well as detergents. And she always told my mother: Less is more in your machine!! Too few articles in a FL will get bad results as well as an overloaded drum! And when it comes to tub-washers (which were actually already dying out in Germany at that time - the mid sixties) the washing MUST float freely in the wash-water or the machine will ruin the garment!

Ralf

Post# 238434 , Reply# 68   9/25/2007 at 15:37 (6,050 days old) by whirlpolf ()        
3-phase motors @sudsmaster

 efficiency, a good point! I remember that my parents got their first AEG Lavamat frontloader with a 3 phase option (5 prongs on the plug, 3 phases, neutral and ground) to run on 380V. It had no capacitor for the motor and even the heater was on 3 phases (no neutral).

Although using a horrendous 150 liters in total for a regular cotton cycle, it went through heating up to 95°C (almost boiling) in about 20 min.

For the motor: When starting the spin cycle, it would slam the whole wet load from zero to 700 rpm in 3 seconds, while the pump was still draining the water.
Ending the spin, the motor was somehow shorted and hence acted as a magnetic brake for the drum (stopped in an instant, NICE screeching sound!)

It was not even TOL at that time, but my dad is using it up to today, the machine runs for 38 years now. Apart from some new suspension springs and a new drain bellow we never had a problem.

Post# 238441 , Reply# 69   9/25/2007 at 16:13 (6,050 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Hey DADoeS, did your first Calypso which is currently in the hands of bpetersxx have those sludge problems?

Post# 238456 , Reply# 70   9/25/2007 at 17:14 (6,050 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
bpetersxxx does not have my first Calypso. The one he has was procured locally in his area by hisownself. Both of mine, the platinum machine purchased on 10/14/2006, and the white bought on 8/2/2007, are in my possession. I have not disassembled the platinum for a look at the tub, but having observed it from outside with the panels removed, there appears to be no sludge. The white also did NOT have a build-up of sludge per se. The residue in the tub was light and flaky. The layer on outside of the basket was of a more heavy, sticky variety (probably softener-related), but washed off easily with water and a nylon scrub brush.

I am running a Whitest Whites load in the white machine at this moment. Hot wash, cold rinse, heavy soil, soak option. Wisk HE liquid + oxy-booster powder. No LCB or softener.

Post# 238458 , Reply# 71   9/25/2007 at 17:27 (6,050 days old) by spaniel50 ()        
bad news about high efficency washers

 I can only comment on my Neptunes. I love mine. No more unbalanced loads,clothes come out almost dry and they seem to be much gentler on the clothes. I had been very happy with the old 806 maytags but I hated the new Whirlpool top loader washer and dryer I bought so I took the plung and got the Neptunes. Thanks to you guys for converting me to fl washer.
The Neptunes are sooooo quiet compared to the Whirlpools.

Post# 238465 , Reply# 72   9/25/2007 at 17:55 (6,050 days old) by funguy10 ()        

By the way, about that mold in front-loaders problem, Whirlpool has just come out with the new Duet Steam washer and dryer set and the Clean Washer cycle on the washer uses steam to sanitize the drum and remove/kill mold and mildew.

Post# 238468 , Reply# 73   9/25/2007 at 18:07 (6,050 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
kenmore he5t

 pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello

i think the sears kenmore he5t as the same option

just see the link

CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK
Post# 238473 , Reply# 74   9/25/2007 at 18:17 (6,050 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Nope, I don't think it has one. You are probably thinking of the similarly styled LG TROMM SteamWasher.

Post# 238478 , Reply# 75   9/25/2007 at 18:51 (6,050 days old) by andrewinorlando ()        

Like Glen, I've never had any kind of sludge buildup in the Calypso in over 6 years of heavy use. And I don't use HE detergent in it either. Only thing I've had is some light calcium scale, which was easily removed with CLR. When I removed the wash plate to repair it a few months ago, it was as clean as a whistle under there....not a mark on it...bright and shiny stainless. And it only uses about 3 - 5 gallons of water in a typical fill.

Post# 238534 , Reply# 76   9/26/2007 at 02:18 (6,050 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

I never heard of mold/sludge growing in a front loader... I always used such machines and none, repeat, none of them ever suffered mold/sludge problems! Also nobody in Italy is aware of this, must say, supposed problem. The only precaution one should have is to keep the loading window slighty open to avoid smells if the machine isn't used for a long time (and by smell I say old detergent and rubber seal smell, not mold) so I really can't understand the self cleaning cycles on USA machines! I even re-read the instructions for my washing machine and it not even mentions the thing!

Post# 238605 , Reply# 77   9/26/2007 at 14:37 (6,049 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
picture of kenmore het5 washer

 pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello here is a picture of the kenmore het5 washer

tank you

Post# 238606 , Reply# 78   9/26/2007 at 14:42 (6,049 days old) by funguy10 ()        

So you've never heard of mold and sludge growing in a Front-Loader but Fisher & Paykel HAS heard of mold and sludge growing in a TOP-LOADER! They, however see that the stuff comes from Fabric Softener-NOT SOAP! They say the stuff is called "scrud" and they are so concerned about it that they do not want consumers to use fabric softener! On the section in the instruction manuals for all 3 models of their washers(EcoSmart, Intuitive Eco, AquaSmart) That talks about softener use the first tip is "Use it sparingly!" DADoeS, you own an IWL12. Do you have sludge problems with it? Did you have sludge problems with the GWL08? Does your grandma who is the current owner of the GWL08 have sludge problems with it?

Post# 238745 , Reply# 79   9/27/2007 at 02:29 (6,049 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
IWL12 and GWL08 are not HE machines, although IWL12 could be considered pseudo-HE. I don't think it can accurately be said that F&P "[does] not want" consumers to use fabric softener, being that all their machines have a softener dispenser of some ilk. Use in moderation, definitely. I have had some softener build-up on both machines in the base of the agitator and on the basket hub (direct line-of-fire where it dribbles when dispensing). I wouldn't call that a system-wide case of scrud or sludge as there were no significant deposits elsewhere. A "machine clean" hot soak cleared it some but not as well as I wanted, so I pulled the agitator and finished the job with a brush. When I use softener with the lint filter (which goes down into the agitator), there is noticeable softener residue (feels slippery/greasy) on the filter if I pull and clean it immediately after a load. I've never paid attention to how much of it would wash off during the next load if softener wasn't used.

The typical consumer may believe that softener falls into the "more is better" category, which it surely does not. Softener is typically dosed according to the load size ... as in physical mass of clothing. Frontloaders and HE toploaders deal with a higher concentration of softener by volume of water than do standard toploaders, so it seems reasonable that softener build-up may be more likely to occur. However, I'd expect more residue to occur in the dispenser tray and injection path to the tub than on the basket and tub themselves.

Post# 238751 , Reply# 80   9/27/2007 at 03:09 (6,049 days old) by lederstiefel1 ()        

I never have that problem as we do not use softener anymore!
In TLs and Twinnies there's no need for it - the washing is much smoother and softer than when washed in a drum - less rubbing!

Ralf

Post# 238833 , Reply# 81   9/27/2007 at 15:21 (6,048 days old) by funguy10 ()        

What about the Fisher & Paykel AquaSmart WL26CW1? It is an HE machine because it does not have an agitator. It does have a fabric softener dispenser.

Post# 239637 , Reply# 82   9/30/2007 at 16:52 (6,045 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        
Interesting link.

 Quoting the OP:

"In addition, the lack of enough water and the “damp washing” technique causes excessive abrasion between the clothes which generates a huge amount of lint which forms a sludge that is not completely flushed out of the machine during the spin-drain cycle. This sludge gradually builds up between the drum and the outer tub and it forms mold and mildew."


A lot of complaints here:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO decodriveboy's LINK
Post# 239762 , Reply# 83   10/1/2007 at 10:06 (6,045 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

Another interesting link.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO coldspot66's LINK
Post# 239795 , Reply# 84   10/1/2007 at 15:15 (6,044 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Oh yeah, I read the manual for the Duet Steam washer online and the part of the manual that talks about cleaning the inside of the machine mentions to put in 2 Afresh tablets and then run the "Clean Washer" cycle.

Post# 239829 , Reply# 85   10/1/2007 at 18:32 (6,044 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I have to take issue with Deco's comment that HE washers are only designed to last a few years. Even looking at machines owned by various members in other countries and their families, we see machines that have lasted a generation or more. Frugal people would not shell out the money for Miele washers if they did not expect 30 years of service which is average for these, I have read. Maybe you are thinking of the bearing failures with the small Electrolux machines, but please do not transfer that data to all of the HE machines or to the fine machines from Northern Europe which have set the standards for performance and durability for decades.

Post# 239852 , Reply# 86   10/1/2007 at 19:28 (6,044 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        

Let me clear that up Tom....I wasn't referring to high-quality brands like Miele, but towards American-manufactured machines. It would be wonderful if we had washers like the ones in Europe. Sorry for the confusion if anyone took it wrong.

Post# 239886 , Reply# 87   10/1/2007 at 21:45 (6,044 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        
Recent American Top-Loader have been more disappointing

 sudsmaster's profile picture
Poor engineering and build quality is not the exclusive domain of American front loaders. Numerous traditional top loader designs of the past decade or so, from established "quality" names like Maytag and GE, often have been found quite lacking when it comes to reliability and washing results. Witness the self-destructing GE plastic transmission, the dumbing down of hot water settings to 90F, and the general cheapening of construction of a design that should require little to no R&D expense. Such washers have more or less become a commodity, not an investment. They don't have planned obsolescence, like over-ripe fruit, they have genetically limited lifespans.

While the Neptune has had more than its share of issues, there are many satisfied owners (myself included). Other reliable American design and mfg designs include the Speed Queen and the Staber. Most of the rest of the front load offerings from American brands are designed and/or manufactured overseas.


Post# 240011 , Reply# 88   10/2/2007 at 14:54 (6,043 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Fisher & Paykel is another dependable brand but is not made in the USA.

Post# 240019 , Reply# 89   10/2/2007 at 15:42 (6,043 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
FunGuy, you aren't researching your facts very well. F&P has a factory in Clyde, Ohio for washers & SmartLoad dryers, and probably the SmartDrive motors used in Oasis & Cabrio & Bravos. Someone on another message board posted in October 2006 that his new IWL16 is labeled made in the USA, although his DEIX2 at that time still said New Zealand. They may also have a facility in California, obtained during the purchase of DCS.

Post# 240022 , Reply# 90   10/2/2007 at 15:55 (6,043 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Sorry, my bad. Also, I think the entire Oasis, Cabrio, Bravos machines and also the dryers are made in the USA as well. Also, Staber washers and dryers are made in Groveport, another city in Ohio.

Post# 240199 , Reply# 91   10/3/2007 at 17:39 (6,042 days old) by funguy10 ()        

I just saw that Samsung has come out with the new AirWash washer/dryer combo. It has SiverCare just like its predessor the SilverCare washer. Not only does the SilverCare option sanitize your laundry, but it is also used in the "Tub Clean" cycle to kill mold and mildew and it also sanitizes the drum. The SilverCare option is so strong it leaves your laundry sanitized for a month after you use the SilverCare. This is also true for the drum so it keeps mold and mildew from forming on it for a month. If you look on the pictures of the machine, SilverCare is labeled "Ag+".(Ag is the 2-letter symbol for silver on the periodic table of elements.)

Post# 240260 , Reply# 92   10/4/2007 at 02:28 (6,042 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

SilverCare: it's proven that silver ions are effectively useless at everything, it's just market move. Btw... I wouldn't ever air-clean (hahaha) my clothes at home... only water and soap really clean (if you exclude proper dry-cleaning that I use a lot!)

Post# 240633 , Reply# 93   10/6/2007 at 07:37 (6,040 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Well still, we can see what companies are doing to nullify the mold problem in Front-Loaders. Whirlpool has the Duet Steam washer which uses steam in the Clean Washer cycle. Samsung has just come out with the AirWash washer/dryer combo which uses AG+ (Positively charged Silver ions) in the Self-Clean cycle to sanitize the drum. Also, about TechniGeek's Calypso thing, there are thousands of happy Whirlpool Calypso/Kenmore Calypso owners in the country. I can name 3 right off the bat: bpetersxx, DADoeS, and jaxsunst.(If he can ever get his fixed.)

Post# 240642 , Reply# 94   10/6/2007 at 08:40 (6,040 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Have owned front loaders for more years that one cares to remember and have not once been bothered by mould. Well the vintage Miele came with a bad problem in that regard, soon saw to setting that right.

If one uses proper detergents and keeps the door of a front loader open between uses, mould is so much less of a problem to almost rank nil. Many Americans insist on shutting up their front loaders after wash day, and leave the machine sitting for days at at time that way. Well mould needs warmth, food and moisture to grow, all of which happens in a front loader when it is shut up. There is also Americans insist on very large machines so they can do laundry once a week or fortnight. Again leaving a the machine shut up for that long unused is bound to cause problems. If one passes any laundromat that has front loaders, more often than not you will see all the doors to the machines left open after closing. Heck, shut up your dishwasher for several weeks and leave it unused and it will develop a whiff about it as well.


Don't bother with "cleansing" cycles either, but then again do tend to launder at least one load at temps >180F every few weeks, so that is that. Maybe once every six months or so will run a descaling wash with the Miele powder, but between using STPP in most wash loads, and Persil which contains a built-in limescale preventer, things are pretty good in that department.

Post# 240657 , Reply# 95   10/6/2007 at 09:55 (6,040 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Although Euro mannies will balk, a little chlorine bleach has been known to kill a germ or other single-celled beastie as well.

Post# 240668 , Reply# 96   10/6/2007 at 10:57 (6,040 days old) by funguy10 ()        

How can you possibly use a self-clean cycle to do laudry without hacking/modifying the washer's programing? And of course the cleansing cycles work. DADoeS, mentioned in an earlier post in this thread about how his IWL12 has gunk on the agitator base and basket hub. He runs the Tub Clean cycle followed by pulling out the agitator and finishing the job with a scrub brush. He says this always seems to work.

Post# 240673 , Reply# 97   10/6/2007 at 11:41 (6,040 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
FunGuy, I've run the cleaning cycle on my IWL12 only ONE TIME. You make it sound as if I do that often, which I do not.

As I understand it, the cleaning cycle on Whirlpool-family front loaders sense via rotational feedback whether there are clothes in the drum and won't run with a load. I can't say about the Cabrio/Oasis/Bravos/AquaSmart, but F&P agitator top loaders will wash clothes on the cleaning cycle. In fact, using the cleaning cycle is the only way to get a full-fill hot wash on the GWL11/15.

Post# 240675 , Reply# 98   10/6/2007 at 11:58 (6,040 days old) by funguy10 ()        

Too bad most people dont know that.

Post# 240856 , Reply# 99   10/7/2007 at 10:05 (6,039 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I agree with Launderess, problems with mould in frontloaders is mostly caused by people not leaving the door ajar. Keeping the door closed is asking for mould problems.

But this is not a frontloader problem only, some toploaders have these problems too, especially when they have a sealed lid. The Maytag Atlantis was notorious for this according to many complaints on the internet. Older toploaders don't have a seal on the lid, but the Atlantis does. When the lid is not left open after use there is a big risk of getting mould, especially under the top.

Post# 240868 , Reply# 100   10/7/2007 at 11:36 (6,039 days old) by funguy10 ()        

That's among the list of problems with the Maytag Atlantis.
(Yay! It's the 100th post!)

Post# 241546 , Reply# 101   10/10/2007 at 13:17 (6,036 days old) by miele4848 ()        
How to use a modern washer!

 I believe it will take a few years for the american to accustom to the new HE washers. I can understand people who try to use standard detergent and this way couse grime in the tub and bad wash- performance. HE Detergent still is extremly expensive if you coose one with a good cleaning performance, like Persil! But this was the same in the early fities in Europe.

I hope that the frontloaded washer has it's great breakthrough soon, I couldnt imagine to use a different kind. I own a fifteen year old Miele with an outstanding wash and rinse performance! Up to five deeprinses are selectable, I love it!

Post# 241575 , Reply# 102   10/10/2007 at 15:34 (6,035 days old) by funguy10 ()        

They have estimated that Front-Loaders will never out-popularize Top-Loaders. It is however the beggining of the end for Non-HE Top-Loaders. Soon our only options will be Front-Load or HE Top-Load. Here are several Top-Loading HE washing machines I can think of:

Kenmore Elite Oasis
Whirlpool Cabrio
Maytag Bravos
GE Harmony
Haier Genesis
Kenmore Elite Calypso (currently not in production.)
Whirlpool Calypso (currently not in production)
Maytag Neptune TL (no longer in production.)

Did I miss any?

Post# 242583 , Reply# 103   10/15/2007 at 21:16 (6,030 days old) by miele4848 ()        
HE Toploaders

 Funguy, Do you realy believe that poor HE Toploaders will last long? The convienience of toploaders is questionable at all when you use a dryer aside! I've seen a few top load energy star washers, doesen't seem to perform well.

The new HE Toploaders, as I could read here several times, seem to be very delicately. To advance durability Its a good Idea to get rid of gearboxes, they cause a lot of trouble if not well made. I believe the only reason why don't like them is because they are from europe! Give Us a chance to enter the market, you would be surprised how good a Miele or Bosch performs...I own a nice old Miele(because of the better rinse performance)And it works so well!

Post# 242773 , Reply# 104   10/16/2007 at 15:27 (6,029 days old) by funguy10 ()        

I've seen a Bosch Nexxt 700 series washer at Lowe's. I've never seen a Miele machine in person though because they are not sold in the USA. Also, they will probably NEVER outsell Top-Loaders, Conventional Top-Loaders will soon be obsolete and only HE Top-Loaders and Front-Loaders will be on the market. Even though Bosch has just been introduced to the USA it could probably never sell as well as the 6 major US brands (Kenmore, Whirlpool, Maytag, GE, Amana, and Frgidgidaire.) Also the USA's most popular Front-Loader is the Whirlpool Duet HT.

Post# 242792 , Reply# 105   10/16/2007 at 16:25 (6,029 days old) by 2drumsallergy ()        
Miele in the United States

 Hello Funguy10,
Miele appliances most certainly are sold in the USA.

David

Post# 242793 , Reply# 106   10/16/2007 at 16:30 (6,029 days old) by 2drumsallergy ()        
Dwindeling Energy Reserves

 I don't want to burst anyone's bubble but the World is rapidly running out of fossil fuels, that fact means the days of cheap energy are gone. Conventional (Water Hog) Top Loaders are highly inefficient in their use of energy and water which has ultimately sealed their fate.

As much as love Top Loaders, I don't understand why our US cousins have a problem with bending down to load and unload a Front Load washer, I mean almost everyone bends over to fasten their shoes. I mean no disrespect to anyone but I have noticed many comments regarding bending to load Front Loaders, and excluding a physical disability I don't understand why its such an issue.

I think Front Loaders will eventually become the norm in the USA but it will take time as a nations washing habits won't change overnight.

David

Post# 242837 , Reply# 107   10/16/2007 at 19:38 (6,029 days old) by decodriveboy (FL, US)        

I think the resistance to front loaders in the U.S. is for several reasons.

Top loaders were marketed many years ago as being more advanced technologically speaking, and more effective cleaners by use of the agitator. They mostly replaced the first automatic washing machines here, which were front loading.

Also, they typically offered a larger basket, faster spin speeds and the convenience of not having to bend over (lol) so you get the idea.


TTL's have for the most part not suffered the criticism of newer washing machine designs, who bear most of the blame for quickly frying motherboards, early bearing failure, mold(!), and my personal peeve--the insufficient use of water.

As a side note, the front loaders in Europe appear to me far superior than the ones offered in the US, and definitely worth having.

Although TTL's may be so-called water hogs, they are basic, mostly reliable and have proven their worth over the years. I'd rather have more than enough water than be forced to settle for not enough (and have to wash and rewash my clothes--some energy savings, huh?), user-friendly and useful features, and cycle times that won't take my entire afternoon.

I do lament the attempt to get rid of traditional top loaders (TTL's) because the move really has much less to do with helping the environment than corporate greed to push "new" much more expensive products with questionable quality to quickly rake in cash from the trusting public.




Post# 242844 , Reply# 108   10/16/2007 at 20:07 (6,029 days old) by pumper (SE Wisconsin)        
why our US cousins ....have a problem with bending down to l

 pumper's profile picture
...because so many CAN'T bend down.

Post# 242849 , Reply# 109   10/16/2007 at 20:31 (6,029 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
back problemes

 pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello

just one words some might have back problemes or other that prvent them to bend down or can t sit down because of a back pain or knee pain or other problemes.

tank you

Post# 242962 , Reply# 110   10/17/2007 at 12:24 (6,029 days old) by 2drumsallergy ()        
Physical Disability

Hi Folks,
Yes I did mention physical disability in my previous post. I did not mean to cause offence to anyone.
If I have offended anyone please accept my sincere apologies.

David

Post# 242973 , Reply# 111   10/17/2007 at 13:28 (6,029 days old) by miele4848 ()        
Poblems to bend down

 It doesnt make me wonder that some american people have a problem to bend! they also have a proplem to walk or using public transport.
The advances of modern living forced the people to become comfortable. Or what do to think why users wan't to prevent bending down to load and unload a washer? Advance means desease of civilization! We in the western world have to rearange our way of living, especially the US!

Energy Saving

a few weeks ago I saw a dokumentery on TV. Different topics from countries all over the world. "The Cloth Line war" was the U.S. topic. People who activeley wanted to save the enviroment by dring their cloth outside, got denounced by their own neighbors!
Their arguments were absolutely silly and prude! They said that they don't want to see their neighbors underwear hanging outside! The management of these "pleasant" housing estate send out a lady to prevent cloth drying! She told the reporter, that the managenent wants to avoid a bad reputation of the housing estate. Cloth lines could be interpreted as a sign of poverty!

My neighbor isn't poor at all, she even has a Tumbler too, but she only uses it if it is absolutely needed. If not she hangs her loundry into the loundry room or her garden!

What I wan't to say is, it is not a sign of poverty but a question of what you are disposed to do to save energy!


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