Thread Number: 15877
The era of traditional TL's(coming to and end?)
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Post# 265769   2/19/2008 at 22:46 (5,882 days old) by tuthill ()        

As FL's gain more and more market share in America (at least this seems to be the trend based on my observations) will TL's one day come to an end as we know them? Could they be done in by government mandates of water usage that simply could not be met by conventional top-loaders?




Post# 265777 , Reply# 1   2/19/2008 at 23:17 (5,882 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Top loading washing machines with central beaters (agitators), will indeed die a slow death if water and energy restrictions get anymore tighter in the United States. Top loaders need enough water to move through the laundry, too little and you are beating clothing against itself and the beater, which causes fabric damage, besides poor cleaning results. Of course the problem could be eliminated by using less than full wash loads, but setting the machine to it's highest water level, but that just prolongs wash day.

Problem right now is that washing machines like many other major appliances are more and more becoming "consumer" goods, rather than durable goods. It's rare to have a washing machine last five years, much less the ten or fifteen our grandmother's units had for a lifespan. With such short lifespans, consumers are not willing by and large, to pay huge sums of money for new washers, and that hurts R&D into keeping top loaders alive. No company is going to pour the resources into designing a top loader that can deal with energy regulations if they cannot forsee selling enough units in a period of time to recoup costs.


Post# 265781 , Reply# 2   2/20/2008 at 00:16 (5,882 days old) by tuthill ()        

Interesting point about the "consumer" goods. It seems to me with all the technology we have today that a manufacturer could make a decent front loading machine that would last "forever." like a center dial 'tag. Cars in the 70's were never known for reliability but today we have cars that can easily log 200,000+ miles

Post# 265788 , Reply# 3   2/20/2008 at 02:23 (5,882 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)        
cashbacks as well

twinniefan's profile picture
Tuthill and Laundress,
As well as mandated water usage and energy efficiency standards,the state governments of Queensland,New South Wales and now South Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating and I think the same for energy.
Now the only top loading machine available here which is eligible for this rebate the the Fisher And Paykel Aquasmart models,no other top loader meets these standards so if you would like this rebate you most likely will go for a front loader,although funnily enough there is also a national standard which requires a minimum level of proper rinsing which actually some front loaders fail to meet,so what do governments want I wonder?.
Do these type of inducements exist in the U.S.A.as well?
Cheers.
Steve.


Post# 265797 , Reply# 4   2/20/2008 at 04:04 (5,882 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Nope, aside from various rebates from appliance makers for products.

Post# 265813 , Reply# 5   2/20/2008 at 06:47 (5,882 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Where's my check?

toggleswitch's profile picture
~The state governments......Australia offer consumers between $150.00 and $200.00 cash back for purchasing washing machines which have a minimum 4 star water efficiency rating....

There were energy company rebates of $75 to $150 for front-loading washers not long ago when I bought mine.


Post# 265818 , Reply# 6   2/20/2008 at 07:16 (5,882 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

In Maryland, Energy Star rated appliances were and might still be exempt form sales tax.

As for machines lasting longer than 5 years, Mieles have an excellent record for longevity. Many others will last a long time with proper care and maintenance. If a washer has been cared for and looks almost brand new, the owner is more likely to figure it is part of maintenance to replace a tub bearing and center seal in a 10 to 15 year old Maytag to keep it functioning instead of getting rid of it and buying new. Of course, those who do get rid of such machines provide great machines for rebuilders who will give them a thorough going over, stick a couple of parts in them and let them wash for another 10 or more years.


Post# 265819 , Reply# 7   2/20/2008 at 07:28 (5,882 days old) by gadgetgary (Bristol,CT)        
Does anyone remember.....

gadgetgary's profile picture
The reserve program when the Maytag Neptunes were first introduced????

Post# 265821 , Reply# 8   2/20/2008 at 07:35 (5,882 days old) by gadgetgary (Bristol,CT)        
Another part

gadgetgary's profile picture
of the reservation program

Post# 265826 , Reply# 9   2/20/2008 at 07:51 (5,882 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
My local utility offers an Energy Star rebate program. I received individual rebates of $100-150 on two refrigerators, a dishwasher and my front-loading washer. Unfortunately, I've read in the local paper that this will be the final year such rebates are offered.

Post# 265831 , Reply# 10   2/20/2008 at 08:50 (5,881 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
TLHA?

I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...

The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?

France is the place where they're most common...

What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?



Post# 265832 , Reply# 11   2/20/2008 at 08:51 (5,881 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
TLHA?

I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem... It would be the maintaining of the TL confort together with the FL convenience...

The problem is the same... only Staber make'em overthere... none have thought to import such kind of machine from Europe?

France is the place where they're most common...

What about this patent we saw producted by the Equator in April 2006 with the name of Cobra-Hybrid being a waser-dryer combo?



Post# 265841 , Reply# 12   2/20/2008 at 10:04 (5,881 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
Locally, the power company and the water district offer rebates on certain FL washer models. Its a sliding scale based on how much water the machine uses.

Post# 265892 , Reply# 13   2/20/2008 at 15:38 (5,881 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
~I wonder why US market haven't considered yet the TLHA like a solution to this problem...

It is my understanding that the interpretation of the American consumer maket at the time front-loaders made their latest "grand en-masse debut" was that we would not (easily) tolerate:

1- Small porhole/openings.
2- Small cpacity machines.
3- Slow time-consuming machines ("Time is money")
4- Inconvenience of bending/awkward loading.
5- Poor performace, lack of bleach and excessive temperatures. (Cultural norms are hard to change!!!!)

So the classic and well-known front-loader was Americanized.
(Super-size it for only 99 cents!).

A- Bigger drum and door. Outer cabinets reconfigured to be approximatley 27" x 27" (the existing "standard"), some even deeper.

B- A quick cycle/programme time of 30+/- minutes.
C- Hot and cold fill.
D- On-board heater only on TOL models, not mandatory.
E- Wattage/amperage draw tempered to work on our 120v circuitry/system.

[NOTE: washer and GAS dryer were traditionally configured to work on ONE 20a 120v circuit (1,920 watts where 120v x 20a x 0.80%)

(1,920w = 16a total, with a 10a washer + 6a dryer.

Here is a news-flash. Compacts and portables have not yet been hit with mainstream and name-brand front-load washers. So where is everyone with 21" square (53cm2) front-loaders? In the past essentially only Whirlpool made compacts domestically and slapped everyone else's badge on them.

To get 21" machines we may HAVE TO begin seeing HAFL-ers.
and that is not a bad thing! And to get them at 18" wide (40cm) would be even more fabulous!


Post# 265900 , Reply# 14   2/20/2008 at 16:02 (5,881 days old) by retro-man (- boston,ma)        

That's the Neptune that I have since new but did not go on there reservation list. Just went into the local Maytag dealer not home depot, won't buy appliances from them, I like to deal with the local guy. What I was wondering was that when I purchased my Neptune, it came with a video tape of the machine and how to use it. Do the new machines come with a dvd on the proper usage of their new machine?
Jon


Post# 265901 , Reply# 15   2/20/2008 at 16:10 (5,881 days old) by laundramatt (Youngstown, Ohio)        

Not as long as I have breath in my lungs and enough money to buy toploaders!!!

Post# 265907 , Reply# 16   2/20/2008 at 16:33 (5,881 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

I am always interested to know where governments get the figures for their mandates from. Are they decided on best overall pactice and performance outcomes for consumers, or some kind of arbitrary consensus that only supports their agendas? Lets face it, it is clear that their priority isn't clean, well rinsed laundry nowadays, but to get people to save water and energy by hook or by crook and largely for their own political/selfish reasons.

Here in Australia, the rebate that is paid to consumers actually comes out of their own pockets anyway. Considering the relative high cost of TOL front loaders, it is a paltry sum. With the low-end front loaders it is a waste of money and as environmentally sensible as leaded petrol. So, here people are being hoodwinked into believing that they are getting a financial reward for being environmentally pro-active. What it really means is that they are motivated into buying products that may not even be what they want, that exact a much higher total cost to the environment than Australian made top loaders and it is pro-actively helping the decline of our domestic white goods industry. Last, but not least, here in Australia consumer tests now show that many front loaders, which are very highly rated for utility savings, actually underperform in overall terms.

I guess if governments mandate variety out of existence, people will become used to the existing standard of the day and not notice any resulting decline in performance.

Now, vivalavatrice asks why we don't just change to horizontal axis top loaders, where we should get the best of both worlds. If that were the case, why are manufacturers continuing to develop new vertical axis designs and technologies? Because the answer to your question, vivalavatrice, is no. A lot of the reasons for which people reject horizontal axis machines are still there. Over recent years there have been far more interesting design developments for vertical axis machines than front loaders. With top loaders, designers have been thinking a little more outside the square to achieve environmental standards it seems. Plus, they still offer consumers the choice between utility saving programs and standard operation. Anything that has been somewhat revolutionary in European washer design of late, seems to have fallen by the wayside. I also don't think that it is appropriate or good business practice to impose European washer design standards on the rest of the world.

Anyway, I don't think that the time has come to write off vertical axis washers just yet. It is clear that there are people who are convinced that they should be wiped off the face of this earth, but what do they know?


Post# 265924 , Reply# 17   2/20/2008 at 18:08 (5,881 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Problem with vertical axis top loaders grows as one tries to design uber sized units that hold what Americans consider "standard" capacity for a top loading washing machine, about 18lbs. Consumer Reports panned Staber's unit because of "capacity" issues.

There are great washing machines out there, both top loading and front loading that have more features than any of us could ever want, and are built for the duration; problem is they are mainly commercial units that would set one back several thousand, which is what a domestic washer would cost built to those specs. Sadly Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time getting their heads around washing machines that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.


Post# 265929 , Reply# 18   2/20/2008 at 18:33 (5,881 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
Amercian consumers, for the most part, have a hard time gett

...that cost upwards of one thousand dollars or more.

Why does that come as a suprise? For decades American consumers have come to expect quality products at very reasonable prices. Naturally, many older people, who still know about quality are lamenting the new direction of (non) durables.

This is what I find so very fascinating. People will squawk on about the environment, energy, carbons and utilities and all that jazz, but nobody says a word about the environmental cost of globalization and its cheap and nasty throwaway crap. Now when we pay top $$$s we don't even have any guarantees that we are getting top quality. My case in point is my four year old 63 inch Samsung rear projection tele. I paid $6000 for it and had nothing but trouble. They don't even make parts for it anymore. So, next time it goes bung that'll probably be the end of it, even though it is still under extended warranty.

At least I know that my Speed Queen washer is made in the good old US of A and built to last.


Post# 265948 , Reply# 19   2/20/2008 at 22:36 (5,881 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        
Cobra

laundromat's profile picture
The prototype has been shipped from our Houston office to our factory in China to be tested and modified.No word as of yet on the outcome.All I can and will say is get ready.This model has a 3.3 cu ft capacity.It will be a 220 volt vented model with a 1200 rpm spin.

Post# 265994 , Reply# 20   2/21/2008 at 09:05 (5,880 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Interesting topic!

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
I remember a time in the 70s, more than once actually, when I came home from being at a friends's house (I was about 10 maybe) and my mother and several of her friends/neighbors were on the back porch talking....I'd hear someone say "I just had to buy a new washing machine". It was a huge deal, the cost outlay, the difficult decision to get rid of the old one, the expectations of the new one, etc. To some it seemed like a stressful purchase. Yes, they sure were durable goods in those days.

If we look at prices of a Kenmore mid-line machine through the years, the prices have remained relatively fixed, even with inflation, so there's no alternative for the machines to have become cheaper and cheaper from a quality standpoint, and thus switch from durable goods to consumer goods.

In 1962 a Kenmore 60 or 70 was priced around $225 or so. My folks paid $269 for a 70 in 1974, and $330 for another 70 in 1983. I paid $359 for mine in late 1986. I also bought a new Mustang in 1986 for $9,000. In 2004 I bought another new Mustang - that one cost me $21,000 and I got nearly 25% off the sticker. I could have bought a Kenmore 70 though for $399 at about anytime in 2004.

The prices for washers and probably appliances in general have not kept up with inflation, which I'm not complaining about, but consumers have forced this to happen, but at the same time have allowed their expectations of machines to drop.

People ask me frequently what I would recommend in a new washer purchase. I usually suggest a Whirlpool made direct drive top loader. Years ago I felt they were junk, but now they look quite good comparatively speaking. I do not believe that a small family or single person would reap the energy saving benefits of an HE machine as compared to the price outlay vs. a well-proven design top loader. A big family or in areas where energy and/or water is expensive, yes. For the rest of us, not yet anyway.

Then again I still hear complaints about the Maytag Neptune's durability and stuff about the class-action lawsuits regarding the HE Whirlpool top loaders (can't remember their name at the moment).

For the moment, and until a front loader is durable enough that we can get $1000 worth of service from it, I'll stay with a top loader as long as they're still made, OR keep working on repairing old ones.


Post# 266887 , Reply# 21   2/27/2008 at 12:51 (5,874 days old) by conate ()        
Are Americans stupid? Or do we just play them on TV?

I have just found this forum.

And I have to ask myself, why are my fellow Americans idiots?

Forget about the FL/TL argument -- folks on both sides have their good and silly points to make. But why, why, why does every product have to be dumbed down for the USA?

My wife and I have had FLs for almost 14 years. The first one was awesome -- infinitely variable temperature controls from ambient cold to 95C, had a great selection of programs, etc.

An unfortunate accident caused us to have to replace it a few years ago. It was a piece of junk by comparison.

We've just bought a replacement Bosch FL. Another piece of junk, that Lowes is taking back. We'll be getting a Whirlpool Duet to replace it. But, give me a break; it has an internal heater, but only the stupid 'hot warm cold' settings. No particular settings for spin speed, etc.

I didn't think we were so stupid as a nation not to be able to operate appliances, but, maybe we are?

Unlike many of you , I DO believe that front loaders, if properly built, are better machines. But it is that caveat that is in question.

Nate


Post# 266899 , Reply# 22   2/27/2008 at 14:11 (5,874 days old) by brant_ix (Westford, MA)        
Hey Nate...

brant_ix's profile picture
You might want to look at the MayTag Epic 9700.
It gives you a lot more options, spin speed, Deep Soak, and Rinse and has better reliability over the Duets since they were the old KitchenAid Models retagged. Consumers and Consumer Reports give them 4.8 and 4.9 *'s out of five for satisfaction and options.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO brant_ix's LINK


Post# 267132 , Reply# 23   2/28/2008 at 21:04 (5,873 days old) by conate ()        
Thanks!

Thanks, I will!

Nate


Post# 267172 , Reply# 24   2/29/2008 at 02:27 (5,873 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        
cashbacks for front loaders (twinniefan)

Some parts of the USA do not have water shortages. In areas where water must be conserved, cashbacks are more common. I live in Southern California and received two cashbacks (we call them rebates) for my Frigidaire 2140 FL:

1. $100 from the government water agency
2. $35 from the natural gas utility, which is privately owned, though subject to government regulation

FLs use less water and thus less hot water, because American machines fill from both cold and hot water lines. There usually is no rebate from the electric utility, because these machines don't directly save on electricity, unless one has an electric water heater. Higher end models with onboard heaters probably use more electricity when a high temperature cycle is selected.

When I bought my Bosch dishwasher seven years ago, I received a $50 rebate from the gas utility (again, because of savings of hot water; our dishwashers fill from the hot water tap and the heater fires up only when the hot water line temperature is below the selected rinse temperature). There was no water agency rebate or electrical rebate.

I also own a two year old Frigidaire refrigerator and there was a $50 rebate from the electric utility because this model uses less electricity than previous models.


Post# 267229 , Reply# 25   2/29/2008 at 10:33 (5,872 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        
ps

For readers outside North America, typical hot water line temperature is 140F/68C. A basic FL model without an onboard heater therefore cannot run a wash hotter than the temperature of the hot water line that supplies the washer. My Frig 2140 has no heater and thus cannot wash at temperatures above what are in my hot water line. For most people, a 60-65 C wash is adequate.

If one is trying to sterilize towels or diapers, 70 or 80 C may be better. In North America, this is possible in more expensive models that include an onboard heater (as nearly all dishwashers have) to boost the water temp to 70 or 80 C. Because we use 120V current, the process takes a long time, and a cycle involving the onboard heater will likely take two hours or more....the same as a typical cycle in a European or international machine with cold water fill only (which at least can heat the water with 240V current). Although an onboard heater is considered standard in the rest of the world, in the USA it is an excuse to charge 200-300 dollars more for what is essentially the same washer with a heater, as if this is a "luxury" feature. They can get away with it because most people can wash adequately with no onboard heater using hot water line fill....and people did so for years with toploaders that lacked heaters.

The nice thing about hot water fill in a non-heater machine (or in a heater machine where you don't select the hot/sterilize cycle) is that the wash completes in often 60-75 minutes, often an hour faster than in the rest of the world when one selects say 60C wash temperature.

US machines rarely if ever have a degrees Celsius selector like the rest of the world. Just "cold", "warm", and "hot". To engage the heater, one generally selects the "Sanitize" cycle plus "hot" temp selection, and this combination engages the water heater to boost the temperature to about 80 C or 160F. Most Europeans would expect a washer to quickly heat water from 65 C water line temp to 80 C, since it doesn't have to heat from the cold water line, but because we have only 110V power, the process takes longer than it would in Europe.


Post# 267257 , Reply# 26   2/29/2008 at 14:17 (5,872 days old) by vivalalavatrice ()        
CLAP CLAP!

Neither I would have been good to say the same...
What else to say my dear PassatDoc?
CLAP CLAP!

Thanks for the precious informations, none knows this important things whether nobody of us dayly comparing the american and the european culture in uses adn habits go to say them!

GoodBye
Diomede


Post# 267335 , Reply# 27   2/29/2008 at 21:54 (5,872 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        

Prego, prego.



Post# 267369 , Reply# 28   3/1/2008 at 02:31 (5,872 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

sad fate for this TL-WD set!Those who are sensitive may not want to watch the link.Could this be the sad fate for possibly usuable TL washers out there?did the folks who put these out for the "Crusher"get a new FL set?At their prices--maybe home washers could be an endangered species.At BB the other day say a LG FL washer dryer set where they cost $2300 each! and the matching pedistals were $475Each!!You could buy a nice TL machine for just the price of one pedistal.At the price of that LG FL set at BB-I'll take my clothes to a laundramat or use a cleaners!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO tolivac's LINK


Post# 267398 , Reply# 29   3/1/2008 at 09:52 (5,871 days old) by oxydolfan1 ()        

Isn't that strange? I watched just to see how much metal a washer would crush down to. The dryer seemed far more willing to be consumed...

You know, the front-loaders are still prohibitively expensive in my neck of the woods....yet, there are pretty decent top loaders available at extremely reasonable prices.

A lot of cash-strapped families would be thrilled to buy a preowned TL set even more cheaply. Couldn't an appliance outlet recondition these lightly-used machines, sell them at a profit that would at least cost the user less than a new one, and make up the difference on volume?

Or do even the Kenmores and Whirlpools really least a year or so anyway?

I recently spoke to a big-box appliance salesman and he said the new front loaders are NOT moving.


Post# 267406 , Reply# 30   3/1/2008 at 10:53 (5,871 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Great qustion Oxydolfan

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
Actually, many many good disposed of machines, top load or otherwise, do go on to reconditioners and rebuilders.

Many a store and individual in Charlotte has made their livings doing this. I think with the more "disposability" of the newer machines and the cheaper (relatively speaking) prices of some top loaders, there may not be as much of a niche as there once was with used appliances, but MANY do go on to have second lives.

The situation varies in municipalities throughout the country, but here our disposed of machines that do go to the landfill/crusher are set-out for a while for others to scavenge parts from. In some cases I have heard where people have arranged "deals" with the site managers for whole machines.

When machines are hauled away by appliance stores such as BestBuy, HH Gregg, Sears, whatever...they usually have deals arranged with local people to pickup their stache each evening or specific days and the haulers can sell or dispose of the stuff at their leisure, almost always to guys like me who like to tinker and repair/restore.

I rebuilt more than 50 Kenmore and Whirlpool belt-drive washers in the 90s for fun. I arranged a deal with the Sears store manager in town at the store that was responsible for all the appliance distribution in Charlotte. When I found out they were putting ALL their haul-backs into a compactor like that in the video, I gasped and asked if I could have them instead.

I was shocked that nobody had asked this before, but the manager was thrilled to be able to decommission the compactor and lower his liability insurance. It was a small personal victory for me to see the compactor itself hauled away!

A friend of mine, who repaired and sold appliances for a living, lived nearby the Sears store. He went by there every weekday to get whatever Sears had accumulated. Sometimes he'd get me to help. I always wanted to keep EVERYTHING, but he'd occasionally force me to dump something in the crusher that probably did belong there. We did this for about 6 or 7 years until Sears changed their distribution method and farmed out the deliveries to an outside company as a cost savings. But, for the time we had the deal, we saved hundreds and hundreds of good washers, dryers, and refriges from going to waste. I went thru the 50, plus I have 30 more still to work on. That's 80 machines, and my friend I bet went thru a couple hundred a year, at least.

As a side bonus, at least as I see it, the parts divisions of Whirpool, GE, Maytag, etc. got a deal too because we had to purchase repair parts for those machines. I spent thousands on Whirlpool FSP parts that would have otherwise gone unsold, and I am pretty sure that those who got my washers would NOT have bought something new if they didn't get mine.

I know similar stuff like this happens all over. Yes, some good stuff does get dumped and wasted, but it isn't as bad as it might first appear, thankfully.


Post# 267414 , Reply# 31   3/1/2008 at 12:22 (5,871 days old) by bearpeter ()        
.... but that just prolongs wash day?

Good point but...
From a personal point of view, my wash day is just about every day.
AEG front loader... put a load in before going to work then when back from work, into dryer.
Simple as...
Does there have to be a "Wash day" nowadays?
Maybe FL's do work with todays lifestyles?
(Don't get me wrong, I would love a good old Hotpoint TL!!!)
Peter


Post# 267419 , Reply# 32   3/1/2008 at 12:46 (5,871 days old) by dubstar85 (Glasgow, Scotland)        

Peter, I don't think that was Laundress' point. I think she is only saying that if you always used half loads then doing the laundry will take twice as long! Apologies if i'm wrong!

I tend to do all the linens on one day since i do enjoy doing the washing and all! Clothes and such just get done when i get home. I'm a bit cagey about leaving the washing machine on when i'm out.

On a somewhat unrelated topic... I realise now that top loaders are not just things that beats clothes to death. I don't want one or anything because i like my FLers too much!

David


Post# 267503 , Reply# 33   3/1/2008 at 21:55 (5,871 days old) by bearpeter ()        
just my little input!

Hi David.. Another appliance lover on the west coast. That can't be bad!!

The post was just my view on washday.... I would love a day solely for indulging myself in my favourite pastime but work, relationships etc get in the way lol!!

Hope Sunday goes well !
Peter


Post# 267546 , Reply# 34   3/2/2008 at 02:04 (5,871 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

In my area FL machines aren't moving real fast either.Yet Best Buy has that super expensive Stainless Steel cased FL LG washer and matching dryer on display.Don't think ANYONE in Greenville is interested--hell the price of that WD set is more costly than most peoples wardrobes!and with some of the horror stories about LG-don't thnk I would want to spend over $6000 for a WD set from them.My thinking its best for the globe to keep all of those older machines going--rather than getting crunched or going to the dump.The WD set that got crunched in the link could have found another home-some folks would have been tickled pink to have them.
The krusher shown in my link is a McNelious manual side load trash truck.Its on a Peterbuilt chassis.The person that filmed the video operates the truck and compactor shown in the film clip.Its amazing what he kushes in his truck-you would want to drive his route before him and collect the goodies he krushes!At present I want to get a BD WP or KN washer but can't find anymore here-the swap shops don't run into them anymore-other folks here want them too!I am on a waiting list so as to speak.


Post# 267577 , Reply# 35   3/2/2008 at 10:08 (5,870 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California)        

Several people at appliance stores in the US have told me that front loaders now outsell top loaders in the US, by what margin I don't know. One of these sources is the owner of an appliance store whom I know socially, i.e. he was not trying to make a sale.

The recent Consumer Reports comparisons, which found most of the conventional toploaders unacceptable due to poor cleaning (they now use less water but have not really been re-engineered), may accelerate the trend, particularly if more "moderately priced" machines come to market, such as Frigidaires for $500-700 rather than $1000-plus

rebates on the order of $50-150 are often involved, the true cost of buying is lower than the actual price tag. Rebates are region-dependent. In areas where water is plentiful and energy is cheap, sometimes no rebates are offered. In California, one usually receives a $35-50 rebate from the gas company (washer uses less hot water) and often $100 from the municipal water district. The latter is a government agency and is not in collusion with the manufacturers.


Post# 267631 , Reply# 36   3/2/2008 at 17:31 (5,870 days old) by timonator ()        
Giimicks!!

Americans Love Change and If they BELIEVE something is new and different theyll whip out their credit cards and pay Two Grand for a Monstrosity of a washer and Dryer. The Front load verses Top Load debate will go on forever but I"ll tell ya one thing..Ive survived 46 years with a Top load washer ! So I'll keep my old fairly reliable Top loader and watch the world go by!

Post# 267634 , Reply# 37   3/2/2008 at 17:54 (5,870 days old) by tuthill ()        

The debate won't go on forever, I'd say in 10-15 years, top-loaders will no longer be made.

Post# 267764 , Reply# 38   3/3/2008 at 16:54 (5,869 days old) by conate ()        
you know...

I've had front loaders for 13 years, and as far as I am concerned, they win hands down.

I PREFER ones with onboard heaters. Then, it doesn't matter how far your machine is from your hot water heater. In my last house, my ASKO 6kg machine was on the second floor, a LONG way from the heater. DESPITE using electricity to heat the water, the 95C wash used less than (IIRC) 3kw of electricity in total.

A 60C wash used about half that.

The small amount of water that the front load used made it economical to heat the water with electricity.

I also saw the longer wash cycles as a bonus, because when the clothes came out, they were CLEAN. Plus, a 1600 RPM spin out meant they were also nearly dry.

Oh yeah: machine update: We ended up going with the front loading Duet. We looked at the above mentioned Maytag as well as the Duet, but the 9400 had more cycles that she wanted - and since she does that laundry that sealed it. These were to replace a Bosch front loader that Lowes took back; neither of us were happy with its performance at all.

Nate


Post# 268268 , Reply# 39   3/7/2008 at 11:25 (5,865 days old) by brant_ix (Westford, MA)        
Top Loaders will still be made...

brant_ix's profile picture
... they just won't be the Traditional Top Loader that we all know and love. F & P, Whirlpool, now even Hoover/Electrolux are all starting to make more efficient top loaders. My PERSONAL opinion, the next generation of washing machine will incorporate some sort of sonic wave vibration to get clothes clean. Kinda Like Star Trek and Sonic Showers. :)

~Brant


Post# 268296 , Reply# 40   3/7/2008 at 13:12 (5,865 days old) by ryanm (New York)        

Where I live here in NY, I know of 3 different appliance stores, one where I have a good friend working, who tell me top loaders still outsell front loader by a large margin. As long as there remains demand, the machines will not dissapear. Most people like choice and variety, and not all have the same likes and dislikes. There should be room for all types of washers, not just one type. Isn't the differences in all the machines what makes them so interesting to us? If they were all the same, it would be very boring. In my immediate family, only two have tried a front loader, , one returned it for a top loader after 3 months, the other still has theirs. All my friend have top loaders, and don't intend to change. It is all a matter of preference. Perhaps if the prices of the front loaders come down significantly, they would be more appealing, by I myself would never spend what they are asking, when I get just as good a result from my top loader at a fraction of the cost. I believe these companies are trying to push the front loader because they make so much more MONEY on them. The difference in machines does not warrant the difference in prices.

Post# 268303 , Reply# 41   3/7/2008 at 13:53 (5,865 days old) by laundryshark (Cedar Rapids, Iowa)        
Crusher Demo

Thanks very much for sharing that crusher demo. I'll use that Online.Movavi.com utility to convert it to a file on my system. *Only at last resort,* should inferior machines be sentenced to such a horrible death. As for well-built classic and new appliances? Save them!--Laundry Shark

Post# 268391 , Reply# 42   3/8/2008 at 00:27 (5,865 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Glad that the "Krusher" film clip was of interest to some-To see more---go to "Classic Refuse Trucks" website-then go to their "Videos" section-then there is LOTS of videos showing all types of trash truck compactor mechanisms at work-In the videos section-There is one by "Rapid Assistant"they show a FL washer being Krushed in a Dennis Phoenix Rear Load trash truck.Could that poor FL washer have found another home?They delighted in Krushing it SEVERAL times-grinding it to bits.I hate seeing that fate happen to ANY Appliance that could have a second life.At the same time Krusher mechanisms are kinda fascinating-like disposers.
I also want to see the price on FL machines come down-if they are truely interested in saving water and energy-that should be the case-remember the FL machines mechanisms are actually SIMPLER than TL mechanisms.Its now on FL machines the motor is connected DIRECTLY to the rotating drum-no transmission,belts or chains.Its to the point the circuits required to operate the motor can be less expensive than a mechanical tranmssion.I have room in my laundry area for both.


Post# 268417 , Reply# 43   3/8/2008 at 06:22 (5,865 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Front loading washing machines by nature of design cost more in terms of R&D because of water soundess and balance issues.

Top loading washing machines basically are tubs with drains and pumps. Water can also drain out quite easily by gravity as well. Front loading washing machines require complicated designs to keep water in the tub (door seals), balance and distribute loads properly, as well as support the weight of several pounds of wet laundry as well.

As for direct drive versus mechanical, considering how many Amercian front loading washing machines "die" because of circut or mother board problems, and are chucked or require expensive repairs, I'd take my chances on belt driven mechanical machines.

L.


Post# 268564 , Reply# 44   3/9/2008 at 01:36 (5,864 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

I am with Launderess on the MECHANICAL drives instead of electronic ones.In some of the equipment I work on here-there are mechanical drives that are over 60yrs old and working fine-bet the electronic ones won't last that long-As it is-the boards die that drive that motor-the machine is declared non-repairable-and---Krushed!The mechanical ones can be more easily repaired.I don't like to see washers resemble jukeboxes instead of washers.And the simple mechanical timers are better than the electronic ones-esp in the thunderstorm ridden area where I live-my KA dishwasher with electronic timers has gone thru two of them so far-it sits in the corner-instead use a KA18 machine that is more "stormproof"Don't have to rush to unplug it when storms come up.Its those ones that come and get'em when you are not home!

Post# 269541 , Reply# 45   3/14/2008 at 03:51 (5,859 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The waiting paid off-got my "New" old WP Dual action style BD machine just yesterday-anxious to try it when I get home from work-will try its "maiden" load!The cabinet is sort of a Biege-eggshell color-not white.and not "harvest gold"either.The swap shop had another one-that WP machine had the electronic timer console and the large Surgilator agitator.Mr Dixen-the swap shop owner--took away the failed KN machine(leaked,wouldn't spin)and took it away-he was going to salvage the motor,transmission,timer console-then the rest goes to the krusher.He was saying at the salvage yard where he takes his "dead" machines they lift them right off his truck with a crane that has a clamshell bucket-the machines get "Krushed" as they are picked up and dumpted on a huge pile.MR Dixens swap shop has a couple of FL Maytag machines-he HATES them-and yes has sent some to that krusher.His shop is in Ayden-just South of here-love to look around there-you never know what you'll find-he may not know whats in the dark corners.Couldn't find anything of interest this time-thats how I found an electrolux LX vacuum.

Post# 271215 , Reply# 46   3/21/2008 at 13:16 (5,851 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture
I must chime in on this thread. I think the change over to FL machines in the US will be slower than many expect, because TL machines are what we are most familiar with. As long as a good Top loader is available for a nominal cost people are going to overlook water usage for checkbook conservation. The price difference between the two types will have to be much closer before people will flock to the front of the machine.

If the time comes when they outlaw the TL machines, I will say only this. . .They will get my TL Dependable Care/Plus Maytag after they pry my cold dead fingers off the mechanical timer.



Post# 272174 , Reply# 47   3/26/2008 at 05:52 (5,847 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Tryout of my "new" WP machine is successful.so far have tried several loads in it and is A-OK.We see how long it lasts.Sounds pretty solid while it runs.I think Mr.Dixen made this one from parts of others-A KN bottom half-cabinet,tank.and upper has A WP control bridge.A machine more for users than collectors.Like it just the same.

Post# 272178 , Reply# 48   3/26/2008 at 06:24 (5,847 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Leviton Brand- Transient Voltage Surge Supressor

toggleswitch's profile picture
~And the simple mechanical timers are better than the electronic ones-esp in the thunderstorm ridden area where I live-my KA dishwasher with electronic timers has gone thru two of them so far-

My 6-week old new lower-MOL GE came with a defective eletronic timer RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. The second timer was installed under warranty (also Chinese-made)does the same thing. I ahd a hissy-fit. Service will call me today. FEH!

This device may help avoid damage. It is a DIY project if you work with electricity. Add two circuit breakers (one per pole or hot-leg for American 220v) and install in your main circuit-breaker panel (UK=> consumer unit).





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