Thread Number: 1606
Fisher and Paykel
[Down to Last]

automaticwasher.org's exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items --- [As an eBay Partner, eBay may compensate automaticwasher.org if you make a purchase using any link to eBay on this page]
Post# 60812   3/21/2005 at 17:02 (6,947 days old) by mulls ()        

Got my first look at this machine-our Lowes just started stocking them.Would someone with experience give me a rundown on them-they seem to use little water-I cant see how this would not cause wear on clothes-I looked at the operating instructions on their site and they seem to indicate really good rinsing requires selection of the deep rinse-so where is the savings?
Tom





Post# 60814 , Reply# 1   3/21/2005 at 17:47 (6,947 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
I had an older GWL08 from 1999 to 10/8/2004, when I got an IWL12, and the GWL08 and matching dryer went to my grandmother. It doesn't have the EcoActive action, and does a deep rinse by default. There is a water-saving 'shower rinse' option, which I tried a few times and it did quite well. I didn't use the option as a matter of normal course because I use liquid softener.

My IWL12 also does a deep rinse by default, has the various shower rinse options. Again, I use liquid softener, so the shower rinse doesn't fit my laundry style. The GWL11 is oriented toward water savings (thus the designation "EcoSmart") whereas the IWL12 is not, although it has all the options to do so.

Typical wash cycle is an initial fill with enough water to saturate the clothing, dissolve the detergent into solution, and provide for a recirculation shower. The recirculation spray runs for between 2 and 5 minutes depending on the soil level and selected cycle. This is akin to the Kenmore/Whirlpool Catalyst top-loader . . except F&P rotates the wash basket slowly while the pump runs a recirculating spray, not a higher speed like KM/WP to force the detergent solution through the fabric. F&P calls this EcoActive wash action. This initial fill is at the selected water temperature. The agitator does not oscillate during this phase, so there is no wear on the clothes from the minimal water fill.

The machine then fills with cold water to a normal water level for deep wash. The result is energy savings due to using hot water only for the EcoActive phase and cold water for the deep wash. There is no water savings resulting directly from this process . . other than perhaps if F&P uses a bit less water for a fill to the particular water level as compared to other top-loaders. The lowest level fills the tub only about 1/4 full, just to cover the lower agitator fins.

F&P also has an automatic water level feature that involves weighing the load, then checking the load resistance against the agitator during some test agitation strokes. For consumers prone to using too high of water level when selecting one manually, this can potentially result in some water savings.

Any water savings on the GWL11 comes primarily from the shower rinse. Rinsing is quite effective, and it probably uses more water than people expect. It's sufficient to flush detergent, but deep rinsing would be needed for loads with particulate soil such as garden dirt, sand, or sawdust. I can't say for sure about the GWL11 (or IWL12, as I haven't yet tried the shower rinse option) . . but as I recall from my GWL08 the shower rinse runs three alternating periods of showering and 700 RPM spin, then heads into the 1000 RPM final spin (or whatever is the selected speed). There are fine-tuning options to increase or decrease the amount of water used for the showering, depends on one's needs/concern over water conservation vs. rinsing performance.

If you search the Sandbox archive, there are several threads discussing the machines, including their top-loading dryer.

If you have any more specific questions, post them here and I'll answer if I'm able.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO DADoES's LINK


Post# 60817 , Reply# 2   3/21/2005 at 18:16 (6,947 days old) by mulls ()        
F&P

Now I have a better understanding.Is it possible to override the cold deep wash?Call me old fashioned,but I still like HOT for whites,dirty jeans,towels,etc.
Tom


Post# 60820 , Reply# 3   3/21/2005 at 19:09 (6,947 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
There are a couple ways to do that. The Perm Press cycle goes straight into a deep wash (doesn't do the EcoActive phase), but the maximum allowed temp is Warm (Cold, Warm/Cold, or Warm). However, on the GWL11, there's a 'hidden' machine-cleaning cycle that works off Perm Press that allows a full-fill HOT wash. This has to be set up in advance, but once the programming is done, the wash can be run at any time with press of three buttons (Power, Favorite, Start).

My IWL12 has a specific option for a "Traditional Wash" that can be selected as desired at any temperature (Cold, Cold+, Warm/Cold, Warm, Warm/Hot, or Hot). The IWL12 can do a number of tricks that the GWL11 can't. It has automatic fabric sensing - the machine determines the average fabric mix of the load and sets the agitation action accordingly, from at least 12 different patterns. It also has a menu of pre-programmed "LifeCycles" to deal with specific stains and washing situations, that provide a variety of EcoActive and deep wash temperature combination, soak phases and agitation actions, extra rinses, etc. The IWL12 also has a slate of customization options, one of which is the ability to adjust the water temperature targets by +/- 6°F in 2°F increments. For example, Warm/Cold can be 89°F, 91°F, 93°F, 95°F, 97°F, 99°F, or 101°F.

I have a 20 minute video clip of a cycle from the start through a good part of the deep wash, but it's 107 MB.


Post# 60824 , Reply# 4   3/21/2005 at 20:12 (6,947 days old) by mulls ()        
video

love to see that video!

Post# 60934 , Reply# 5   3/22/2005 at 15:32 (6,946 days old) by Curt ()        

I read that you mentioned about how to have a tub full of hot water, (by selecting Perm Press and holding the hot and cold water temp together). Customer care at Fisher & Paykel told me about that hidden control panel hint. Do you know of others? I have an Ecosmart Washer, model GWL 10US. Is it possible to manually adjust the amount of water that is preset with the water level selector? (I am not referring to the option adjustments possible when using the "Auto" water level.) It appears to me that the amount of water in the machine when the level is set at "High" is not quite enough for my use. Is it possible to modify the preset levels of the water level selector? Thanks. Great website.

Post# 60943 , Reply# 6   3/22/2005 at 16:17 (6,946 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        
Music, not water levels

dadoes's profile picture
I don't know of a way to modify the target points of the five water levels. I doubt that can be done.

But I believe your GWL10 can play music. Be sure you have access to the power cord before beginning! With the Power off, press and hold Advance, then press Power at the same time. Press Water Temp Up for two seconds. Press it again to play a different tune (there are two). Unplug the machine for about 10 seconds to reset the circuitry out of demo mode.


Post# 60953 , Reply# 7   3/22/2005 at 16:50 (6,946 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        
Video Clip

dadoes's profile picture
I'm only leaving it available until afternoon of Fri 3/26/2005 'cause it's so large, but here's the video clip if anybody on a broadband service wants to take a stab at it.

Fisher & Paykel IWL12 EcoActive wash, water level sensing, fabric sensing, deep wash. (20 mins 35 secs running time, 107 MB / 109,866 KB)


Post# 61003 , Reply# 8   3/22/2005 at 23:39 (6,945 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Interesting. 37 downloads of the video clip thus far, and nobody has any comments? Let's hear 'em, good or bad!

Post# 61016 , Reply# 9   3/23/2005 at 00:20 (6,945 days old) by lightedcontrols ()        
.....very interesting.......

Thanks for posting the video! I had never seen one of these machines go through it's wash portion of the cycle before. A friend of mine that sells them in Florida, had most of them returned. The customers just didn't like them. In observation, it seems the light blue garment didn't disappear completely until 18 minutes and 36 seconds into the wash cycle. I often wonder why they don't just us a regular 30 wash cycle like most of the top loaders of the day, with options selected by the user instead of the machine going through all of it's rigamarole trying to figure out how much water to use. Just wondering how long the regular cycle is since it "washed" for 20 minutes before it started the rinse portion of the cycle. I'm not sold on this one at all. Mark

Post# 61017 , Reply# 10   3/23/2005 at 00:22 (6,945 days old) by pdub (Portland, Oregon)        
OK, you asked!

pdub's profile picture
Maybe my memory has been altered by my current Frigidaire front loader but I thought that 12 minutes to fill seemed very long. I know this machine was doing some load sensing and / or stain treatment. I also thought the agitation was very UNIQUE ! I know a woman that has a set but I've never seen them in action. She said she bought them because she was told they were the quietest ones made. After she got them she felt she was lied to. From the sound of the video they sound about the same as a WCI Frigidaire top loader I once had. Good video though and thanks for sharing!

Post# 61028 , Reply# 11   3/23/2005 at 02:31 (6,945 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
That's not the entire deep wash shown in the video, my MemoryStick filled up. I don't recall exactly how long it ran. The IWL12 doesn't provide for specific wash time in minutes, but rather there is a selection of six "soil levels." The selection for the video was the 5th level. I've noticed that more intensive agitation actions can result in longer wash times for the same soil level -- a load of jeans on mid soil level that triggers a stronger agitation action will wash longer than a load of casuals at the same soil level.

The maximum level is called "Stained" and alternates several periods of agitation and soaking. Higher/lower soil levels give correspondingly longer/shorter EcoActive periods as well. There is also a separate "Soak" option that adds a 2 hour soak at the end of the deep wash phase, and can be added to any soil level.

I've not had any issues with cleaning performance, in either the five months thus far of using the IWL12 or five years of my previous GWL08. Rollover is a bit lethargic compared to some other machines, but note that even items at the top get sloshed around pretty well.

The video shows just one of a number of different agitation actions the IWL12 can do. I've noted about 12 different actions. They're reported on the display after fabric sensing settles. Easy Wash, Mild Wash, Medium Wash, Active Wash, Firm Wash, Strong Wash, and some variations in between. There's also specific selections for Woolens, Handwash which is VERY gentle, and Maximum Wash. The video may have been Active Wash, I don't recall and shots of the display didn't come through clearly. It's interesting that the fabric sensing stroke is a little different for heavy loads and lighter loads.

It doesn't always take three fill sequences to select a water level. Usually two, and occasionally one. A water level CAN be manually selected if desired (there are five levels). Manual selection eliminates the 'rigamarole' for that, but it will still *always* do fabric sensing . . . except for some of the "LifeCycles" that are hard-programmed with specific agitation actions. It doesn't do water level sensing for the deep rinse, but instead goes directly to the same level that was used for wash.

I have to admit it's a little noisy, but the sounds are exaggerated in the video since the camera was shoved right at the machine. The latest GWL11 and IWL12 use a "different method of motor control" (according to F&P) than older models (such as my GWL08) which gives better feedback sensing of the load. This also results in a different, more 'squeaky' operational sound. As with any machine, one gets accustomed to the sounds. I don't much notice that it's running any more, it's just normal background household noises.


Post# 61029 , Reply# 12   3/23/2005 at 04:21 (6,945 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
GWL08

So why was it replaced? Broke down? Just for the hell of it?

Post# 61053 , Reply# 13   3/23/2005 at 11:42 (6,945 days old) by Ironrite ()        

Thanks for the clip. I've been mulling over replacing my Frigidaire F/L set and I've been looking at these machines. My partner really hates loading the F/L, and likes those top loading dryers. What I'd need to do is take one of the large comforters to the dealer and see if it would fit in the machine.

Post# 61057 , Reply# 14   3/23/2005 at 12:51 (6,945 days old) by westie2 ()        
F & P in model homes here

My wife, daughters, and daughter-in-laws went model home looking this weekend hey saw several homes with the washer, topload dryer and the dish drawer dishwasher with sub-zero builtin fridges. Other model homes had all Kenmore upper end washers He4T's in colors and dryers. With the builtin look refrigeratos and the duel fuel ccommerical ranges. This was upscale subdivision others range from all Kenmore, all whirlpool, all Frigidaire, or all Maytag appliances. They hit nearly 15 developments around town gues was bettter than them spending money shopping. Did give them all the wants for new homes though.

Post# 61061 , Reply# 15   3/23/2005 at 13:36 (6,945 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
kenmore1978, the GWL08 and matching DE04 dryer were replaced simply because I wanted an IWL12 and the top-load DEGX1 dryer. I waited months for them to be available in this area, and did some minor hoop-jumping to get them.

I bought a KitchenAid 760-series pair a couple months before I moved into my (first) house in September 1991.

I got the GWL08 and DE04 in August 1999, the KAs went to my grandmother (replacing a Whirlpool Design2000 washer and 1972 Whirlpool dryer, both were still working and were sold).

I got the IWL12 and DEGX1 in October 2004, the GWL08 and DE04 went to my grandmother and the KAs are now in my garage (what goes around comes around), along with my 1997 KA refrigerator, 1992 Superba dishwasher, and the 1950 Frigidaire WO-65.

Neither the KAs nor the F&P's have needed any repairs, except I did replace the KA's drive coupler a couple years ago.

Ironrite, I've washed a heavy quilted queen-size bedspread in the IWL12, on the "Comforter" cycle plus 2 hr soak. It was a very tight fit, and there was virtually no rollover, but it did come out OK.


Post# 61065 , Reply# 16   3/23/2005 at 15:16 (6,945 days old) by mulls ()        
cycle

Thanks for sharing that video-this is the wildest thing I have seen!Certainly different to say the least.Seems like the long way around to get the desired result.Liked the wash action though-once it got going.Long strokes and those upper vanes really move the clothes.Doesnt matter if the movement is in the upper or lower part of the tub as long as things are moving all the time.Cant help but think that in that 21 minutes my Frigidaire front loader would have filled,washed and be well into the rinse sequence by now....
Tom


Post# 61150 , Reply# 17   3/24/2005 at 09:41 (6,944 days old) by Joe_In_Philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        
Just what I needed to see...

joe_in_philly's profile picture
DADoES,

Thank you for taking the time to film and share this video. I impressed with this washer and how "smart" it is about everything. I am also upset with you, because now I want one to play with after seeing your video, and I don't have any place to put it!

Joe


Post# 61165 , Reply# 18   3/24/2005 at 14:18 (6,944 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Oh, and pdub, total fill time in the clip is about 9 minutes to reach the highest water level, including the two water level test sequences at medium and medium/high. That wasn't actually 'stain treatment' per se. The EcoActive concentrated detergent spray phase is a standard part of the wash cycle. There are a few special cycle selections that skip it -- Handwash and Comforter, for example -- and go straight into a deep wash.

It may be difficult to see in the clip, but part of the load-size sensing process is the machine detecting at what point the wash basket floats to disengage from the drive coupler. During the main fill sequence, the basket rotation pulses several times for the SmartDrive motor to 'sense' the mass of the basket and also to give it a bit of a push to float/disengage. The pulses stop after it senses that floation has occurred, but rotation continues. At that point, motion is imparted strictly by the agitator (the basket free-spins on the drive shaft). Fill continues to the next water level point after floation, then the agitation sequences come into play to sense the load resistance on the agitator.

Toward the end of the (neutral) drain, the motor pulses clockwise and counterclockwise several times to help the basket settle back down on the drive coupler, and to confirm that it has done so by sensing the mass and inertia. Austin has seen it do this, he expressed surprise that it rotates in both directions. :-)

When I had my GWL08 disassembled for the infamous 'incident,' I tried running a spin with the basket removed. The motor just kept pulsing back and forth, confused that it didn't 'feel' the basket. I grabbed the shaft and gave it an extra shove as if the basket was there with some spin intertia, and it kicked off running.


Post# 61350 , Reply# 19   3/25/2005 at 23:42 (6,942 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Interesting detail noted tonight. I was running five pairs of jeans on medium water level (manually selected) and "normal" soil level. Fabric sensing came up with a pretty aggressive agitation, Active Wash. Well, the jeans aren't really that dirty, so I dropped the soil level back one notch. The agitation action realigned to a slightly less-aggressive Firm+ Wash. So I cranked the soil level through the five levels (not including the maximum Stained selection). Agitation switched between Maximum Wash, Active+ Wash, Active Wash, Firm+ Wash, and Firm Wash. It seems that for a given load condition, the selected soil level can have a bearing on what agitation action is used.

Post# 61351 , Reply# 20   3/25/2005 at 23:50 (6,942 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Interesting! Even Firm+ wash, with another load of jeans, seemed aggressive and splashy.

I'm assuming Maximum wash is the most aggressive? I wanna see THAT in action!!!!


Post# 61354 , Reply# 21   3/26/2005 at 00:11 (6,942 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
There's a LifeCycle selection for "Maximum Wash Profile," I guess intended for forcing it into that mode on a small load or whatever, when the machine wouldn't otherwise choose it. I had not seen it use that mode on a 'regular' load, but I'd never set jeans on the highest soil level.

Post# 61444 , Reply# 22   3/27/2005 at 20:46 (6,941 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Ran across another agitation profile when flipping through the soil levels on a load of casuals / Creasables. Caring Wash.

Soil Level 5 = Caring Wash
Soil Level 4 = Easy+ Wash
Soil Level 3 = Easy Eash
Soil Leve 2 = Soft+ Wash
Soil Level 1 = Soft Wash

Yes, the agitation did change on each one -- slightly faster/slower longer/shorter stroke.



Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      



Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.



                     


automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy