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Thread Number: 16428
1967 WCIL Problem |
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| Post# 272849 , Reply# 2 3/29/2008 at 15:52 (5,865 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Where is the motor start capacitor found? | ||
| Post# 272883 , Reply# 3 3/29/2008 at 17:52 (5,865 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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| Post# 273158 , Reply# 5 3/31/2008 at 18:23 (5,863 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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Wish I could answer your questions, but I can't. It seems fairly difficult to get advice for Frigidaire washer repairs here sometimes. They're complicated animals though. I'm curious too if there is an alternative to the bellow pliers. I heard a hint of noise from the spin bearing(s) on the last load I washed in the 63, so I see a tear down in the near future. | ||
Post# 273172 , Reply# 6 3/31/2008 at 20:03 (5,863 days old) by unimatic1140  (Minneapolis) |
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I'm curious too if there is an alternative to the bellow pliers. Yes I used to use C-Clamps before I had the bellows pliers. Can't speak much to Rollermatics because I have never really worked on one, as I've never had one for very long in my collection. I can tell you that to remove any Frigidaire Mechanism, the agitator and tub do need to be removed. | ||
| Post# 273202 , Reply# 7 3/31/2008 at 21:47 (5,863 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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| Post# 273252 , Reply# 8 4/1/2008 at 07:12 (5,863 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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thanks Robert and Dan, Does the mechanism then lift out from the top of the machine or do i pull it out from the bottom? Dave | ||
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Post# 273258 , Reply# 9 4/1/2008 at 08:26 (5,863 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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Mechanism goes out the bottom
once the tub is out you can use a small screwdriver to lift the one folded tang which is lapped up against the large mechanism support nut located ontop and against the rubber support cone. Use a large pipe wrench to loosen and remove the mechanism support nut, then with all the wires and hoses and springs (mark their locations) disconnected and the cross brace removed the whole mechanism will drop out the bottom. Sounds to me like you have a leaking bellows and water in the shaft bearings or it could be the main bearings pressed into the mechanism. jet | ||
| Post# 273284 , Reply# 10 4/1/2008 at 11:00 (5,862 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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okay, so I got started however I'm having a hell of a time with the screws at the bottom of the inner tub. I actually broke two off. I tried heating it with a MAP torch with no luck. HELP!!!!!!! | ||
| Post# 273286 , Reply# 11 4/1/2008 at 11:07 (5,862 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Here's Where I'm At Notice the screws 
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Post# 273288 , Reply# 12 4/1/2008 at 11:41 (5,862 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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Those screws do not need to come out Davy. After you remove both bellows there is a 1.5" tub mounting nut around the spin shft, after that is removed, then the tub will pull out. Those screws at the bottom of the tub are mounting the tub to the tub hub, both tub and hub are pulled out together. There is very little reason to ever remove those big stainless steel screws at the bottom of the spin tub. | ||
| Post# 273297 , Reply# 14 4/1/2008 at 12:52 (5,862 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Easier Said than Done that nut is rusted fast. I've tried heating it and using a sledge hammer and pipe wrench. It won't budge. Is there a trick? I'm assuming lefty loosy, correct? | ||
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Post# 273351 , Reply# 17 4/1/2008 at 18:57 (5,862 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions) |
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Post# 273429 , Reply# 19 4/2/2008 at 01:08 (5,862 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Not necessarily the worst case
Davy, you may not be SOL on this. The reason the motor works fine once it is spinning is because it is really two motors in one - a motor to start things turning and one to keep them going once they start. The starting system on your motor has failed. It may be that a winding has failed and that means the motor will have to be "rewound" by a shop (shouldn't be a big problem). But there are a couple of things you can check before you assume the worst. First, the starting sequence involves several components, all subject to enormous stress and strain. Depending on the motor and where in the US it was meant to work you will have at least one capacitor. If it goes, or a wire breaks it could cause this problem - bad capacitors have been known to take other components with them, so you should really replace it/them after all these years in any case). Now before everybody jumps on the "two capacitor? not done" bandwagen, we had a few rollermatics which were set up with two in our dorms. Low voltage and lots of starting loads at once. So don't assume, check. Please remember, a capacitor still has enough charge to kill you or ruin components even after the plug is pulled. Discharge it before you handle it. Second possibility. The motor may have a centrifugal start switch that has failed. A loose connection or broken part or contacts not touching...many things can go wrong there and with a simple VOM, you can track them down. Third possibility. Over time, corrosion and wire breaks can leave one wire dead when the one just next to it is still resistance free and working perfectly. Check all the wires in the harness and the connector blocks. Did someone decide to splice something in at some point? Did a wire get pinched? The schematic diagram may have the details on the two systems in the motor, if it is a standard (and I do belive GM was using standard motors by that point) then there will be a catalog with the data or someone here will know) so you can find out if it is a shorted/dead start winding. By the way, the direction the motor runs is determined by the starting system, not the field windings. That is why you can spin it in either direction and once it starts, it stays on that way. | ||
| Post# 273470 , Reply# 20 4/2/2008 at 11:25 (5,861 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Panthera, yes it's the GM motor. I checked the connections on the motor and they are fine, no corrosion. No splices either. I won't be able to go any further unless I can get the tub out. I heated the nut, whacked at the wrench with a sledge hammer to no avail. Any other tricks of the trade you know of? | ||
| Post# 273473 , Reply# 21 4/2/2008 at 11:36 (5,861 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Here's My Nut.....(pun intended) See picture... The thing won't budge 
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Post# 273475 , Reply# 22 4/2/2008 at 12:07 (5,861 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Davy,
Oh my stars - that looks like real fun. Not. I think you'd better wait for Samantha or one of the specialists to chime in. Only two suggetions from me. One, stop whacking your nuts. You aren't gonna get them off, leastways not like that. Two, We all know how touchy those rollers are about lube. WD-40 or silicone gets on them, you are seriously screwed. So be extra special careful. Any shots of the motor, data sheet or schematic? Might jog a memory. | ||
| Post# 273477 , Reply# 23 4/2/2008 at 12:30 (5,861 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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yeah, I can take as many pics as you like. I'll do that this evening when I get home from work. I'll take one of the schematic (which is on the back of the machine) and of the motor. It looks like water got past the water bellows, doesn't it? Dave | ||
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Post# 273479 , Reply# 24 4/2/2008 at 12:59 (5,861 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Thanks for the pics, | ||
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Post# 273531 , Reply# 25 4/2/2008 at 20:49 (5,861 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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Well that nut is gonna have to come off somehow, I've never seen one so rusted before, but the Unimatics used a stainless one. There should be a lock washer and tab up against that nut, I assume you saw that and pushed the tab downward? You might have to cut that nut off, even if you did get all of the tub bolts out, you will still need to remove the hub in order to pull the mechanism out from below which means that nut has to come out.
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| Post# 273582 , Reply# 26 4/3/2008 at 09:19 (5,860 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Lock Washer and Tab?????????? I didn't see any lock washer or tab up against that nut. Is there supposed to be? It might have become as one with the rust that I overlooked it. The only tab I saw was the one above the pulsator diaphragm. If I cut that nut off, does someone have a replacement for me? Davy | ||
| Post# 273592 , Reply# 29 4/3/2008 at 12:41 (5,860 days old) by rickr (.) | ||
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| Post# 273601 , Reply# 30 4/3/2008 at 14:14 (5,860 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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does the one capacitor function for both spin and agitate? Remember, it goes into spin fine, agitate is the issue. | ||
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Post# 273608 , Reply# 31 4/3/2008 at 15:18 (5,860 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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Sorry davy I forgot that the tub nut also has a lock washer
"once the tub is out you can use a small screwdriver to lift the one folded tang which is lapped up against the large mechanism support nut located ontop and against the rubber support cone" and I forgot to mention the tub nut also has a copper lock washer with tang folded up agianst the nut. You get that tang back down and get a pipe wrench on the nut with a hammer and it will turn | ||
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Post# 273612 , Reply# 32 4/3/2008 at 15:47 (5,860 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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usually, yes
The cap. is usually just for starting, but there were variations depending on need. I don't know the configuration of this motor well enough to guess, but it sounds increasingly like a problem with the starting system - centrifugal starting switch being the most likely. Does anyone here have the GM service sheet on this motor? Would help Davy more than my general theory. | ||
| Post# 273653 , Reply# 33 4/3/2008 at 20:46 (5,860 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Here are shots of the motor picture #1 
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| Post# 273654 , Reply# 34 4/3/2008 at 20:47 (5,860 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Picture 2 Here is another angle... 
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| Post# 273656 , Reply# 35 4/3/2008 at 20:47 (5,860 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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Also... There is no locking tab on that nut. | ||
| Post# 273660 , Reply# 36 4/3/2008 at 21:08 (5,860 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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here's a video I just took of the mechanism running See how wonderfully smooth and quiet it runs? Once it gets going, it's great! CLICK HERE TO GO TO davy1063's LINK | ||
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Post# 273719 , Reply# 39 4/4/2008 at 08:27 (5,860 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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Wait a Minute!
You know I totally agree with Chris' post above. I just went back to your first post and reread it, it gives a very important clue which I didn't notice before: "It seems as if it's the motor (regretfully). It spins with no issues but it just seems to have an issue agitating. " ***bangs head on wall for skimming thread for pictures and not reading properly*** As Chris stated, if a motor operates in one direction it can operate in the other direction. If the mechanism in not binding or hard to turn then starting the motor in agitation is much easier than starting the motor in spin. I've seen capacitor issues where the motor had trouble starting in spin and agitation was fine, but not the reverse (unless there are two separate starting capacitors like in the Frigidiare Super-Duty coin-ops). I'm pretty sure the problem most likely is in the timer now. The timer needs to reverse the neutral and hot leads to the motor in order to revere the direction, if one of the contacts on the spin side is dirty or burned it could cause this problem. It might be time for a timer-ectamy? | ||
| Post# 273725 , Reply# 40 4/4/2008 at 08:42 (5,859 days old) by rickr (.) | ||
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Hi Robert, I know on my 66 Rapid Dry the capacitor is in one case, but is two capacitors in one. There are three wires to the cap. The plug in connectors are both "hot" and the other wire that is soldered on the cap is neutral. I had to replace mine with two caps, and wired the caps together, making the two outside connectors "hot" and the two inside connectors wired together as neutral. My 66 spins and agitates fine now. Do you think that one side of the cap may be defective on his machine? | ||
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Post# 273726 , Reply# 41 4/4/2008 at 09:13 (5,859 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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I know on my 66 Rapid Dry the capacitor is in one case, but is two capacitors in one. Yes if this machine does indeed have two capacitors (one for wash and one for spin) then the Agitate cap could be the issue as well. But I did just check the wiring diagram of the 1967 WCIL and I don't see any capacitors listed, unless they are not shown for what ever reason. | ||
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Post# 273743 , Reply# 43 4/4/2008 at 10:26 (5,859 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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So now you know what the problem is. | ||
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Post# 273785 , Reply# 45 4/4/2008 at 15:41 (5,859 days old) by unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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Capacitor(s) ?? | ||
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Post# 273786 , Reply# 46 4/4/2008 at 15:42 (5,859 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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yes...and no
If you disconnect the motor from the harness and test, then yes - you should be able to quickly find out one of three states. 1) Motor OK. Leaves wiring, cap(s), centrifugal starter,timer (contact? - Wasn't GM using that one plastic wheel as cam tracks for all the followers in 1967?) 2) Motor not ok, winding dead. You may still have another problem which killed it, but this would mean either a rebuild, or, as someone mentioned above - you get lucky and find where it vaporized. 3) Motor tests with one winding dead or shorted but the fault lies with the starting mechanism. Personally, I suspect the field windings are ok, problem lies in contacts - either starter or timer, Don't get too hyper about the resistance being a bit high or low for any one measurement. Be sure to also measure all to ground. Sound like a scratched CD here, but remember - the caps. are still carrying one hell of a load. | ||
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Post# 273788 , Reply# 47 4/4/2008 at 15:50 (5,859 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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of course
Being very cautious, you could also test the female connector. If the start wire for spin were dead, that would mean either the cap, wiring or (shudder) timer. Probably safest to discharge the caps, take them out of circuit, then (after jumpering their connections) test for continuity with the VOM and not 125VAC. Caps. filter DC, so you'd have to take them out of the circuit. | ||
| Post# 273794 , Reply# 48 4/4/2008 at 17:02 (5,859 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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there are no capacitors on the service panel. there is nothing that I can see on the motor. I looked at the schematic and the only thing it shows is the connector and the color codes. No other info. | ||
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Post# 273807 , Reply# 49 4/4/2008 at 18:45 (5,859 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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some do, some don't
Davy, Whether or not a machine has none, one or more caps. installed depends on various factors. Frigidaire offered a simple retro-fit cap. to dealers for customers in low-voltage areas for those washers sold without. So you may not have one. I had a '67 without; added one following the service bulletin when I moved up into the mountains and 125V was very "nominal". Was more like 105V, even the phase was seriously unstable.. My only concern was you don't hurt yourself or the thumper by overlooking one. So, no cap.....that means let's hope you have a broken wire in the harness. | ||
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Post# 274682 , Reply# 50 4/11/2008 at 11:06 (5,852 days old) by trainguy (Key West, FL) |
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Post# 274871 , Reply# 52 4/12/2008 at 19:46 (5,851 days old) by trainguy (Key West, FL) |
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Tub Nutz | ||
| Post# 274875 , Reply# 53 4/12/2008 at 20:09 (5,851 days old) by davy1063 (Pennsylvania) | ||
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the one on the bottom is the one! | ||
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