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Thread Number: 16973
New washing machines built to last??? |
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| Post# 279627 5/12/2008 at 14:41 (5,820 days old) by electron800 () | ||
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Just stumbled upon this website, what do you guys think? CLICK HERE TO GO TO electron800's LINK | ||
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Post# 279635 , Reply# 1 5/12/2008 at 15:17 (5,820 days old) by kenmoreguy64  (Charlotte, NC) |
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I thing it's great!
Our economy has become dependent on producing throw-away appliances at prices which reflect this, but I have long wondered when someone would realize the global impact this has had. I can clearly remember back in the 70s when my mom and her friends would mention that one of them was having to buy a new washer or fridge, etc. It was a big ticket item and a big deal, something that middle America just didn't take for granted or do every day without thought and planning. In 1974 our Kenmore 60 series washer cost Mom and Dad something like $289. I sold that machine to a friend in 1983 when we moved to NC and they bought another Kenmore, for $350 something. Today, you can get a Kenmore for that same price and it's reasonably similar in features, though it weighs about 100 pounds less. Taking inflation into account, the machines today don't represent anything close to the same financial investment (relative to a household budget) that they once did, therefore they've become expendable. My sister recently disposed of a 2000 model Kenmore and figured she'd received enough service from it. "It was old" she said. Her washer probably went on to some rebuilder's shop, but if it went to a dump, all the materials will get crushed into a recyclable "cube" which is composed of various types of plastic and steel. Then, another machine needs to be manufactured and shipped - at the cost of more plastic and steel, plus fuel. Personally, I would rather see appliances built with the standards of the 60s and 70s such that they last two or three of the current appliance lifetimes. Manufacturers will have to price things accordingly, but we will adjust I think. To me there is a certain pleasure from owning a product that is well engineered and of good quality. Today's appliances are so flimsy and cheap feeling they usually don't inspire confidence on my part at all. In the 1990s I rebuilt nearly 60 1970s and 80s Kenmores, and I always patted myself on the back when I put one back into service, as they were usually rescued from Sears' dump, and I felt that I'd made the materials they were made from more useful without investing much in the way of inputs other than a few parts and my time and gas. Time will tell if the idea meets with success in England or not, but I think its the right one! | ||
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Post# 279658 , Reply# 3 5/12/2008 at 17:36 (5,820 days old) by volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Hear Hear!!
Kenmoreguy64, I wholeheartedly agree with you! If you trace washing machine devolution since the 1950s, they have not only become less well made, they have often become less-featured and less effective too. Sure, BOL washers have always been around (Wash, Rinse, Spin, Done). But TOL and especially MOL washers just aren't what they once were. Gone are: effective lint filtration, water temperatures aside from cold, warm, and hot, lighted control panels, durable porcelain, tub lights, suds savers, etc. etc. etc. Long slow wash strokes have been replaced with short fast ones which do more to wear clothing than clean it. Unfortunately the average American consumer is fairly stupid (sorry). I don't know if this is a recent trend, or one that predates my birth in 1981. If you take a Lady Kenmore washing machine from the 1960s, how many people today would use all the features in comparison to 40 years ago? In terms of cleaning ability, a 1960s LK is a very competent machine, even today, poor extraction excluded. Most people I know today just pour in a big dose of Liquid Tide Free & Stinky, set the overloaded machine to cold wash / cold rinse and walk away. I am convinced you could sell a cardboard washer with 1 cycle (has to look like there's more though) at Sprawl-Mart that would destroy clothes rather than clean them, for under $100.00 and you would make a fortune. It seems that effectiveness and quality are irrelevant in most consumers' minds. I wonder how a new washer would fare in Consumer Reports tests against an old one in terms of cleaning ability and durability? I don't mean to be rude, but I have absolutely no faith in the average American Consumer. If you want a high-quality, effective washing machine, it will likely be expensive to produce and sell. People, like my father, will buy whatever is cheap and pretty, regardless of its effectiveness or quality. Such people will even buy another machine exactly like the one that failed prematurely. Even if there was one good machine left, (I know Miele is good, but will any of the present American market models be expected to last 20 years of service?) it would likely be so prohibitively expensive that it would be a dismal market flop. I have found that people expect poor performance, don't care, and/or can't tell the difference. Until consumers start to wake up and realize that the only thing on the market is crap, demand improvements, and be willing to pay for them, I think that performance and especially durability are dead. Whew, I feel exhausted, and like I just poked a hornets' nest, Dave | ||
| Post# 279665 , Reply# 4 5/12/2008 at 18:39 (5,820 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago) | ||
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Post# 279684 , Reply# 5 5/12/2008 at 19:07 (5,820 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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We keep going down this path, and the destination is always the same: Americans by and large are no longer willing to pay dear for what appliances built to yesterday's standards would cost. Take any TOL or even MOL Maytag, Norge, Frigidare, Kenmore, etc washing machine and adjust the price from even twenty or ten years ago for inflation. You'd have a washing machine that costs upwards of near one thousand or more dollars. There are still washing machines built like they "used to", but they are commercial units and cost several thousand dollars. Happily many commercial laundries and laundromats are retiring such units (front and top loading), because of water and energy use; so hunt own down and have at them. L. | ||
| Post# 279731 , Reply# 6 5/12/2008 at 20:48 (5,820 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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Post# 279753 , Reply# 8 5/12/2008 at 22:11 (5,820 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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You folks are all right....
This does delve into a greater subject, which is the American lifestyle in general (maybe even that of the western hemisphere overall) and how our values have evolved since the 60s and 70s. When I heard my mom and her friends all talking, they were part of Americana back then, but today they'd all be out either working, or driving kids to this and that before and after school, or involved in their own interests, and otherwise have less time for idle chit chat. Laundry has always been a necessary evil for many, but more-so now. I don't know who to blame for appliances becoming disposable....in the time that they have, cars have become better, almost like the industries traded places. Did consumers drive prices down on appliances, or did manufacturers keep prices low (and reduce quality accordingly as necessary) to make their machines less "big ticket" and therefore make consumers more willing to replace them sooner. It's all about volume for GE, WP, etc. of that much I'm sure. I too would like to know what my 1986 Kenmore belt drive would cost, as made, today. I agree with Laundress that it would exceed $1000. I paid $358 for it on sale, and I paid $9k for a nicely equipped V6 Mustang that year too. You can pay about the same for a decent Kenmore on sale today, but a V6 Mustang equipped like mine will cost 2.5 times the '86 price, at least. My solution is to keep my belt-drives going as long as I can, though I don't know that the machines on the market today are as totally bad as they are made out to be sometimes, including by me. A number of their usability issues are caused by the aforementioned stupid consumer. I think a Whirlpool DD is not so hard on clothes if it isn't overloaded, and if one uses the slower speed when possible. As much as I love an old belt-drive, the DDs handle off-balance loads better, and they sure are easier to service. If some of those innovations could be combined with 1970s build quality, there'd be one heck of a machine! One little issue to pick here Dave....the "poor extraction" I hear about all the time on Kenmore belt-drives is over-blown, at least in my opinion. I've used large capacity Kenmores since I was a kid, and even fully loaded, those loads take no more than 45-50 minutes to dry, including towels and jeans. At least in my two dryers. It would seem that stuff would come out dramatically more wrinkled if they were spun a great deal faster. Granted, I never use the Perm Press cycle which spins at the delicate speed (I'll probably hear about this later...) What I think will be most interesting to watch in the next few years is what happens as the current generation of front loaders starts to age. Consumers have paid elevated prices, back to where they would be if machines hadn't been cheapened for 25 years, but I bet there will be loud shouts heard when those $2,000 LGs don't make past their 8th birthdays, etc. Perhaps some of that is already happening? | ||
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Post# 279802 , Reply# 11 5/13/2008 at 08:38 (5,819 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia) |
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The ISE machines are just rebadges machines from other manufacturers. The ISE 10 is an Asko. What are the others? The ISE 5 looks like a European Whirlpool to my eyes, though I am no expert. And the ISE 2 looks like a Beko, I would never accuse them of being top quality machines. Chris. | ||
| Post# 279826 , Reply# 12 5/13/2008 at 12:25 (5,819 days old) by dascot (Scotland) | ||
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The dishwasher is a Beko, and the previous ISE5 was also a Beko, so the current 5 and 2 may be as well. They seem rather expensive for what they are, though I certainly appreciate the sentiment of repair rather than replace. | ||
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Post# 279838 , Reply# 13 5/13/2008 at 14:14 (5,819 days old) by volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Recycling.
I am generally in favor of recycling instead of dumping, however it is far from perfect or common. In order to properly recycle something, it must first be separated into its different components (you don't recycle plastic the same way you recycle steel). The problem is that in order to be truly effective, you have to disassemble the machine. While assembly lines are common and efficient, disassembly isn't the same way. Many manufacturers also use snap-together components that are easy and cheap to install, but nearly impossible to remove (also cause for early appliance death in lieu of repair). Paying someone to dismantle appliances (and supply them with the necessary tools) is expensive and the process can be time-consuming. Smashing the machines to bits and separating the parts is a great deal cheaper and faster, but is it accurate enough? Even recycling takes energy and resources. Considering the energy required to recycle an appliance, build a new one, and shipping (both old and new machines, door to door) what is the cost? As I have written several times: when considering the replacement of a functioning (or repairable) appliance simply for the sake of energy efficiency, how much energy would you have to save over how long a period of time to justify the cost of replacement? Comparing the new and the old, which appliance would last longer, a new one or a used high-quality older one? Points to ponder, Dave | ||
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Post# 279993 , Reply# 14 5/13/2008 at 22:38 (5,819 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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I couldn't agree more Dave
I have seen over and over again on Craigslist, people trying to sell their perfectly functioning top loader pairs because they bought front loaders. They're pawning the old machines on to someone else to use, so are they really saving any energy? I think the most efficient thing to do is use the old stuff until it's done. This won't use any energy or materials to build and distribute new machines we don't yet need. I have no problems with someone replacing a dead appliance with a more efficient one, however buying a new washer simply to save a few pennies monthly on energy seems moronic and I wonder how many of those buyers will wind up really happy with their purchases. My sister and brother in law replaced a 2000 Kenmore set with TOL LGs at Christmas 2007. I think they paid more than $2500. I recently asked how they liked them - they said "we don't - the washer shakes the whole house and drives us crazy." They have an upstairs laundry which doesn't help. I would not be surprised if that machine winds up displaced within the next two years for something less disturbing. They will probably ask me this time what they should buy, and I'm going to suggest they get another version of what they had before. | ||
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Post# 279996 , Reply# 15 5/13/2008 at 23:24 (5,819 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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One must also remember, if major appliances were just that, and built to standards of yesterday including easy repair it would seriously put a crimp in new sales. The main market for major appliances, including washing machines has always been new homes/construction, and of course post WWII those who went from wash tubs,laundry services, and laundromats to owing their own units. If washing machines didn't need replacement for 10, 20 or even 30 years, that would leave most manufacturers at the mercy of new home sales, and that cycle goes up and down. Right now most anything to do with new home sales, from Home Depot to Sears are posting losses due to the sub-prime housing mess. There is also something I learned from watching a great program on PBS, but always knew from my own family life: there is a a world of difference between those born and or who lived through the Great Depression, and yes, those of us who were born to parents who fit the above category. The older generation grew up with the idea credit or at least being in debt for the most part was bad. One lived within one's means or you lived without. Some old timers I know can make a nickel cry! Such persons always insisted on value for money, and made sure things gave service. Most of us have been there, crying and begging for new jeans, only to be told the hems would be let down from the ones we had and they would do, end of story. Boomers and the generations after them are purely I want it new and I want it now, never mind about cost, just charge it. It is no accident that Boomers have the lowest savings rate in United States history, and the highest level of debt. When our parents moved house, many took most every thing they could with them including appliances if possible, especially if they were new. Today people just leave them and buy every thing new. | ||
| Post# 280065 , Reply# 16 5/14/2008 at 12:50 (5,818 days old) by brant_ix (Westford, MA) | ||
Don't forget Salary based pay too
My partner and I just bought a house 6 months ago. We just furnished our Living Room and My Office with our Tax Returns and Economy Tax Refund. Considering our ages, mid 30's, we are doing alright, but also far behind. At our age, we should have more in our Savings and Retirement. With the housing crisis, we got a New Construction House for an INCREDIBLE deal, one too good to pass up! Problem was, we weren't ready to buy for another 6 months, so we had to use our Savings. We are using as much of our existing furnishings as possible, but it's a big house and we've only each had a small condo and an apt. Plus, He's never had any real furniture cause he was always moving. With the new house came new requirements - ex: Had to buy washer, dryer, lawn mower, snow blower, etc. That all requires debt and credit. There's no other way we would have been able to get these necessities. We put 10% down on the house and kept some money for some of these items, and then searched for some AMAZING Deals, like 75% off on the Lawn Mower cause it was end of season! Couch and Love Seat for 60% off cause it was floor model and discontinued! etc. All things considered, our debt is pretty minimal. Each have Car Payment and the Mortgage. The rest of our debt is probably around $3,000 total. Not bad, but our savings are probably less than half that. I'm an I.T. guy and he's a Prof for a College. We make "decent" salaries, but are both still underpaid in comparison to the job market and research data according to our experience and capabilities. Ok, this post had gone on longer than I had intended, so I'll get to the point... Salaries haven't kept-up with inflation, and most people are working more, and getting paid less, and are not able to afford to live in the house, let alone go see a movie. I was raised by my mother and grandmother ='s my parents. To that, we are utilizing and recycling as much as we can, and it's still a challenge to try and put something in that bank account for a rainy day! (So far we've only been able to put like a $100 a month away) The cost of living increases of 3% aren't cutting it, and as I am getting older, I have even less desire to continue to work 2 jobs like I did in my teens and twenties just to get by to pay the rent. The Rich get Richer, and the Poor Get Poorer... How is anyone ever supposed to achieve the so called "American Dream" when 2 people (such as ourselves) who are well educated, well experienced, and well versed/cultured are still just getting by on a week to week paycheck?? On a side note, If you ever want to read a good book regarding this topic, Read "Nickel and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich. Link to Wikipedia below: CLICK HERE TO GO TO brant_ix's LINK | ||
| Post# 280136 , Reply# 17 5/14/2008 at 20:02 (5,818 days old) by paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland) | ||
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Post# 280161 , Reply# 18 5/14/2008 at 22:19 (5,818 days old) by volvoguy87 (Cincinnati, OH) |
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Boomers.
Point #1: I find it both interesting and disturbing that the Depression generation has been so thrifty and that the Boomer generation has been largely the opposite. My Post-Boomer generation looks to be even worse. I spent a great deal of time with my grandparents and inherited many of their financial values. I save my money, I look for deals, and I try to buy the highest quality products available and use them as long as possible. I have even repaired things that weren't supposed to be able to be fixed simply because I did not want to be bothered to go buy a new one (and spend the money). Point #2: What will serve you longer, a 25 year old Maytag, or a brand new GE front loader? In many cases the quality of older appliances is so high that even with many years of use and wear, they will still outlast a brand new machine. As a professional historic preservationist, I see everyday the belief people have that "New is ALWAYS better simply because it's new." Nothing could be farther from the truth! I find that, in dealing with buildings and appliances, each item must be examined independently because some things just last a long LONG time and age is of minimal importance if the condition is good. My '87 Volvo is more reliable than my '02 Saab, Dave | ||
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Post# 280176 , Reply# 19 5/14/2008 at 23:55 (5,818 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Don't Think It Is Just The Depression Generation
That is tight with money and or careful with savings. Anyone who has grown up not having much and or doing without lives with that experience the rest of their lives. As adults many either follow two lines: either they spend every cent they get, cluttering up their homes with "stuff" to make up for all those years of not having; or, they are as tight fisted as their parents and always worried about and saving for "hard times". The latter are usually the sort of persons that leave estates with lots of money socked away, and or where you find money hidden away in socks, drawers, inside of walls (that one was on the news), etc. Brand new things put away wrapped up tight, never used, while even their everyday things are well taken care of. Closest thing many bommers have to remembering the Depression, was the inflation (stagflation) of the 1970's and early 1980's. It was the beginning of manufacturing closing US plants and moving overseas, Big Steel was being shoved aside by imports, and lastly imported cars started to kill Detroit. | ||
| Post# 280227 , Reply# 22 5/15/2008 at 10:01 (5,817 days old) by zodawash (Lincolnshire,United Kingdom) | ||
Beko
Yes Beko make some of ISE machines for them but they are not standard Beko machines they are specifically built to the ISE spec ie they have upgraded the suspension, bearings and removed common failures of machines by designing it to last and be easy to fix if it does break. From what i've heard from engineers they are not going wrong. The price is very good for peace of mind and a machine with local engineer back up. If only more would follow. Obviously the Asko machine is already an increadably well proven design so its natural ISE would choose this as the top of line machine. Steve | ||
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