Thread Number: 1795
American vs. European Washers and Dryers
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Post# 63020   4/12/2005 at 19:14 (6,924 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Hi all. I'm new to the site, after finally "coming out" with my attraction to this amazing site and its wonderful guys and ladies.

So here's me splling my guts. (Please take it all as "IMHO")

Subject: Regarding heaters in new (to the American market) F/L washers. (sorry.... can't find the original thread.)

The appliances we see overall are generally engineered to fit our electrical systems. Here is what I mean.

Keep in mind.... AMPS X VOLTS = WATTS

In the US.... we generally have at least a 20 amp appliance circuit for the laundry room where:

20 amps @ 115 volts = 2,300 watts.
Code says we can plan/allow a load of 80% max per circuit.
(80% of 20 amps = 16 amps)

Therefore a washer and a GAS dryer = 10 + 6 amps respectively or 16 amps total, and can be safley/legally put on one 20 amp line. This is the maximum electical load. (So the added load of a water-heating element doesn't work in this scenario.)

Even if we were to run a washer alone on a separate line there would still be a very limited number of amps available on a 15 or 20 amp US circuit (esp, considering many US washers are rated at/ use 9 or 10 amps.) to run a water-heating element.

This would also necessitate running a gas dryer on another electrical line. (An electric dryer would already be on a separate heavy-duty 30 amp line.)

Now:

In Europe they seem to use two 13 amp circuits (general-duty for their metric wire-gauges; our equivalent general-duty lines are rated 15 amps) in the laundry room. The washer on one line, and an electric dryer on the other. (Which means they can plug a full-size/speed dryer into any outlet in their homes... as long as it's not the same line as the washer.)

13 amps @ 230 volts = 2,990 watts.

Assuming that they too can only go to 80% max. of 13 amps = 10.4 amps.... (so let's say 10.5 rounded)

Their electric dryers are SLOWER because the wattage of their full-size machines is necessarily lower,(less than 3,000 watts I believe) to use the available 13 amp 220 volt sockets.

Now: More importantly than 220V countries having about 700 watts more to start with, (and then not having to share the socket with a dryer) is that

WATTS / VOLTS = AMPS

2,000 watts / 230 V = 8.69 amps

2,000 watts / 115 V = 17.39 amps

(where 2,000 is a randomly chosen wattage of say.. the water-heating element)

...so Europe and other 220 V countries can pack a much larger number of watts on a line and still keep the amps low due to their higher voltage.

In summation they CAN add a water heating element because of their electrical voltage and they way their use of power in the laundry room has evolved. For us it is much more difficult unless more electrical capacity is brought to the laundry room.

Thanks for listening and please be gentle when commenting.

Thanks and great to be aboard...





Post# 63042 , Reply# 1   4/13/2005 at 02:16 (6,924 days old) by SactoTeddyBear ()        
Re: Reading, understanding and help needed:

I've checked all of this info out and since I'm not real educated about the terms, I would like to add with asking some info for some additional help for myself on this topic. I'm looking into operating probably a Top-Load Washer and a Front-Load Washer, with a Stacked Gas Dryer on top of it. If I were to plug all of these into the same Circuit Plug area and possibly even look into also operating my {110-Volt} LG Compact Combo Unit at one time or another all at once, is this going to Overload the Circuit, even given that the 1-Dryer's Heat Source is Gas. I know that when the Combo Unit is Drying, that it will be no doubt drawing quite a lot of Electricity, but will all of them still run, or will the Circuit be too Overloaded?

I'm also going to look into operating my Lady-K Combo at some time, but it is Electric and will be on the 220-Volt Circuit.

I would really appreciate any and all {easy terms} help with my inquiry. I might at some time also have 2-Full-Size Front-Load Washer's, instead of 1-Top-Load and 1-Front-Load and a Gas Dryer, besides either the Lady-K Combo or the LG Compact Combo, but most of the time will be similar groups of the first mentioned of Washer's and Dryer's.

Peace and Happy Laundry, Steve
SactoTeddyBear...


Post# 63045 , Reply# 2   4/13/2005 at 02:35 (6,924 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
3 appliances, one circuit

very easy to calculate. Add up the totoal amp draw of all three appliances. If it goes over 20, won't work. Now, I'm assuming this is a new enough home to have 12 gauge wiring and a 20 amp breaker on that circuit, and there's nothing else on the circuit besides those machines.

Post# 63046 , Reply# 3   4/13/2005 at 02:39 (6,924 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
Maximum load

"Therefore a washer and a GAS dryer = 10 + 6 amps respectively or 16 amps total, and can be safley/legally put on one 20 amp line. This is the maximum electical load. (So the added load of a water-heating element doesn't work in this scenario.)"

To add to this, most appliances are still designed to draw less than 15 amps at 115 volts, since there are still MANY older homes with 15 amp maximum circuits. So manufactureres have to design energy draw for the "worst case scenario" to ensure that things will work in any home, old or new.


Post# 63047 , Reply# 4   4/13/2005 at 02:45 (6,924 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
permittable overloading

My '78 LK washer draws 9 amps and the dryer draws 6 amps. In an older home, this theoretically would cause an overload, but in practice, they could run together since time delay fuses and circuit breakers allow for temporary overloads. In the case of the washer, the fill periods allow for no load conditions. In the case of the GAS dryer, it only actually draws its full 6 amps when lighting the burner, and that only occurs for about 15 seconds every so often. Otherwise, it only pulls about 3 amps. This allows them to to run on a 15 amp circuit (though my circuit is actually a modern 20 amp circuit)

Post# 63052 , Reply# 5   4/13/2005 at 03:33 (6,924 days old) by SactoTeddyBear ()        
Re: Extra Info:

Hey! kenmore1978, thank you for the info, as with reminding me of some other info to include. The house was built in 1954, with a Fuse-Box "BUT" the Fuse-Box was replaced in the late 1970s or early 1980s with a 200-Amp Circuit Breaker Box. It only has around 1/2 of the Breaker Plates being used for the house and garage area. The house was originally with having the kitchen {south wall} Recepticle where the Refrigerator sits, being on the common wall to the Laundry in the garage Recepticle and I'm not sure if they were separated. There were also another Recepicle in the Kitchen for Small Appliances, that since has been separated, actually again a few years ago, because I've got 2-Microwave Ovens, with one being Maytag "Over-the-Range" Micro/Hood Model and I couldn't run both at once, so I had an Electrician separate their Circuits. At this time, I've got another Refrigerator Plugged into the Receptical in the garage at the Laundry and it hasn't blown the Circuit yet...The Refrigerator will eventually be replacing the one in the Kitchen, because it is a {24cu-ft} Side-By-Side and the one in the Kitchen is a {21cu-ft} Top-Freezer {both newer mid 1990s Maytag's} that I'm probably going to sell. I'm not sure, but I assume that the "LG" Combo Unit would as with American-Made Washer's have the Electrical Info on the Model Number Plate? "BTW" the Water Heater for the house is Gas, although the "LG" Combo does have a built-in Heater, but while I'm using it as a Portable in my Kitchen at this time, I've never used the Sani-Heating Cycle yet, nor do I actually ever expect to use it at all, except for possibly just to check out the difference in Laundrying performance.

Peace and Happy Laundry Days, Steve
SactoTeddyBear...


Post# 63055 , Reply# 6   4/13/2005 at 06:10 (6,924 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
power issues

toggleswitch's profile picture
Thanks all. Very cool. Learning a lot every time I log-on.

-esp gas dryer power draw with ignitor off, (Tks Kenmore1978)

One-piece stackables (washer & gas dryer) (110 v) have a plug made for a 20 amp outlet [One prong is horizontal] to prevent insertion onto a 15 amp outlet (BTW 12 amp is the max @ 80%)

Most compact electric dryers draw something like 12 to 14/15 amps, and will frequently partially melt an oultet or at least brown and enlarge the openings, (especially if many loads are done in succession) when used on a 15a line.

Code allows the use of a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit -- in residences only-- not commerical use. So it is frequently seen... at least in my area in/around NYC.

TIP: use 20 amp receptacles on 20 amp lines. Industrial grade-- even better.

Those of use who like to play with plug-in major appliances...resulting in maxing out circuits... I'd personally replace 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones just to avoid such melt-downs.

I'd also use electrical tape around outlets and switches to cover the screw terminals and prevent shorting against metal splice/oultet boxes should the outlet/switch come loose and "shift"

I'd also like to say (since EVERYONE is entitled to my opinion.. LOL)

I think F/L -ers spin faster since in their lands (where they are the rule, not the exceptions and 220 volts is regular voltage) the dryers are so slow. and "powerless"

PS I chose "Toggleswitch" because all of you just turn me on with all this type of talk...

-Toggleswitch





Post# 63058 , Reply# 7   4/13/2005 at 06:47 (6,924 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
20 amp outlets

"Those of use who like to play with plug-in major appliances...resulting in maxing out circuits... I'd personally replace 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones just to avoid such melt-downs."

Just to clarify, you want to get the 20 amp rated outlet with the "T" shaped slot, not just the horizontal slot, so it can accomadate 15 and 20 amp plugs


Post# 63084 , Reply# 8   4/13/2005 at 11:45 (6,923 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Just some additional information about Europe, or better about the Netherlands because there is a difference with the UK I think. Overhere the circuits are 16 amps and as far as I know we don't use the 80% max. norm. That means 16 x 230 = 3680 Watts. My Miele frontloader (an older model with a bigger heating element than the modern ones) draws max. 3480 Watts.

BTW, sometimes for American appliances HP is used. Isn't 1 HP about 750 Watts?


Post# 63098 , Reply# 9   4/13/2005 at 16:19 (6,923 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Plugs/ Outlets /Power / HP/ UK Ring Circuits

toggleswitch's profile picture
Kenmore 1978-

Agreed.. "T" slot on 20a 110v outlet is best to be able to use both 15a and 20a plugs.


Foraloysius-

Thanks.... good to know. 3,480 watts @ 115 volts is over 30amps!!! Even our heavy-duty dryer outlets would choke!

I'm inclined to say you are correct about HP. Don't really know what a HP is worth in Watts. I'd say here we use HP to compare the size of electric and gasoline motors. Can anyone help me with this one?

And speaking of power in the UK.. if anyone wants to hear me ramble on about RING Circuits and why UK Plugs are fused...feel free to ask!

I fear i'm getting too technical for a newbie!





Post# 63104 , Reply# 10   4/13/2005 at 17:47 (6,923 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

My washer and dryer are plugged into standard UK plug sockets in my bedroom, it's great how appliances here are almost plug and play! But yes - my dryer socket is not only used for supplying electricity to the dryer; but it's also where I plug in my phone charger, and the socket that I use for vacuuming my room.

BTW; my AEG OKO_LAVAMAT washer draws 2300W with the 13A 230V circuit, and my AEG LAVATHERM dryer draws 2750W on a 13A 230V circuit. I think the dryer possible has a higher fuse than the washer, as the flex is quite a bit thicker than the one on my washer.

Apparently our 3-pin switched plugs in the UK are the safest in Europe, and probably the most flexible too. I've been to France and Germany several times before and the sockets didn't even have switches on them, and some didn't even have an earth! Is this the same in the US?

Jon


Post# 63122 , Reply# 11   4/13/2005 at 20:35 (6,923 days old) by westytoploader ()        

The 120V sockets don't have switches on them here, but does not make them any more or less dangerous than others.

Post# 63123 , Reply# 12   4/13/2005 at 20:37 (6,923 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Also, all of the sockets now are 3-prong grounded. 2-prong sockets existed back in the 60's but are no longer made, probably due to the fact that they are a major shock hazard! The last time I saw a 2-prong outlet was in a house across town, built in the 1940's.

Post# 63131 , Reply# 13   4/13/2005 at 22:27 (6,923 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Plugs/ Outlets /Power /

toggleswitch's profile picture
In the US a std outlet ("power point" => UK) has a ground ("earth" => UK) older ones do not.

Plugs and outlets are also polarized (with one prong wider than the other so that un-grounded plugs fit into the wall outlet only one way. (Hot stays hot... neutral stays neutral on those things that are connected to power via a cord and plug)

In New York City the Electric Code is much stricter than (and augments/supplements) the "NEC" National Electric Code. Wires by law are metal-sheathed (as opposed to plastic sheathing with a bare copper ground conductor.) which is used as a system ground. METAL boxes are required to house switches, outlets and splices. Switches and outlets are therefore automatically grounded when they are mounted via screws into such a metal box in NYC, no separate action needed.

Metal sheathed wires are required to prevent fires caused by beasties (polite way of saying rodents) biting into wires.
A side benefit is that induced Electro-magnetic fields are (grounded away!!! There is controvesy that these are a health risk.

By the way we MAY NOT ground to gas EVER!!! I thought I read that the UK can/should.

I think UK outlets have switches for safety as was mentioned earlier...lessens chance of touching live prongs/pins on plugs. I believe the outlets in other 220V territories are recessed so that it's nearly impossible to touch a live pin when in the action of plugging or unplugging something in. For US residents think of a "clock outlet." These were normally found in the soffit above kitchen cabinets (I pray this is not a local thing and was common throughout the US.)

Now how many younger people even know that wall clocks were at one time electric and corded and not battery operated?



Post# 63136 , Reply# 14   4/13/2005 at 22:43 (6,923 days old) by westytoploader ()        

My high school is "1970-vintage" (all original; while it has since been repainted, a few of the classrooms still have avocado green walls), and there are still many 1970's Sunbeam corded wall clocks in use there as well as the original Standard clock system in the hallways and cafeteria. An interesting note is that up until 2 years ago (before 9th grade), a few of the Standard clocks did not work. I guess the maintenence finally got their act together and fixed 'em!

Battery wall clocks can be troublesome because after a while, the mechanism wants to "stick" regardless of how many times you change the battery--a real pain. Corded is much more reliable and accurate, IMHO, and I always liked the way the second hand constantly turned...

--Austin


Post# 63150 , Reply# 15   4/14/2005 at 03:20 (6,923 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
NEC standards

In the US a std outlet ("power point" => UK) has a ground ("earth" => UK) older ones do not.

two prong outlets are still available for use in older homes that still have ungrounded systems

Plugs and outlets are also polarized (with one prong wider than the other so that un-grounded plugs fit into the wall outlet only one way. (Hot stays hot... neutral stays neutral on those things that are connected to power via a cord and plug)

Outlets were actually polarized WAY before manufacturers started putting polarized plugs on ther products. I'm so particular that on things that don't have polarized plugs, I determine which wire is the Neutral wire and plug it in appropriatley.

In New York City the Electric Code is much stricter than (and augments/supplements) the "NEC" National Electric Code. Wires by law are metal-sheathed (as opposed to plastic sheathing with a bare copper ground conductor.) which is used as a system ground. METAL boxes are required to house switches, outlets and splices. Switches and outlets are therefore automatically grounded when they are mounted via screws into such a metal box in NYC, no separate action needed.

Local authorities are free to have stricter codes than the NEC specifies. Examples, often electric ranges and dryers were grounded through the neutral and had 3 prong plugs, but some local codes dictated that the ground and neutral be grounded separately, necessitating a 4 prong plug and outlet. The city of Los Angeles dictated early on (The Teens) that wiring had to be in RIGID conduit (and later, flexible metal conduit) or thinwall metal conduit (for outside underground wiring). Plastic sheathed wiring was only allowed in the last 20 years. What was nice about this arrangement was that simply replacing the old two prong outlets with 3 prong ones automatically gave you a safe grounded system, even in very old houses. L.A. also allows the Ground and Neutral to be tied together (some local codes require separate Ground and Neutral). It's then connected to either a grounding rod driven into the ground, or attached to the water plumbing AND it's also carried back to the utility pole.


Post# 63160 , Reply# 16   4/14/2005 at 06:38 (6,923 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
NYC & Long Island, NY Electrical Standards

toggleswitch's profile picture
"L.A. also allows the Ground and Neutral to be tied together (some local codes require separate Ground and Neutral). It's then connected to either a grounding rod driven into the ground, or attached to the water plumbing AND it's also carried back to the utility pole."

NYC=> Neutral is grounded at the circuit breaker panel (called consumer unit=> UK) No grounding rods AT ALL. All sevices are grounded to incoming water pipes. (And now water meters which are relatively new to NYC have a jumper to ensure contiguous ground.) Service enters via METAL conduit. (never plastic conduit or plastic sheathed cable "Romex")

LONG ISLAND=> Varies from village to village, but in my neck of the woods when I upgraded my main service it was required to be grounded to a water pipe AND with a grounding rod in the earth.

At one time I had no W&D and was in the laundromat (IMAGINE?)The water main was being worked on and was "dug out." The workers removed the grounding clamp to the electical system. WOW!! All the flouresecent lights were strobing and shimmering. There was one dryer running. When I went to put my clothes in another one and tried to start it the whole place went dim and the other dryer slowed down to the point it nearly stopped. I had no idea at the time grounding is essential

I once peeked behind the back of a (tall) commerical dryer --to see how they work, of course-- [The kind with the burner on top and the filter in a compartment on the bottom] and it said "Approved for use in NYC by ....." and "Approved for use in LA by ......" so it looks like those two cities have perhaps the most stringent codes, electrical and otherwise.


Post# 63268 , Reply# 17   4/15/2005 at 02:52 (6,922 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Australian Spin

Australia is another country that doesnt have recessed recepticals. But all outlets are switched.

A standard Power circuit here is 240V 10Amps
In most places the FL washer and dryer share a double 10am outlet without any issues. 99% of FL washers in Australia have Heating built in. A lot of the current machines dont even have connection to Hot water.

Most dryers in AU are "compact" and rated to about 8-10amps, but the large capacity American Style dryers still need 240V 20Amps to run. The Large Capacity American style dryers are very rare in Australia. Most are "Compact" and rated to about 5kg

With 240v we never have an issue using extension leads either, we dont seem to get the same voltage loss that is experienced in the US, which from my understanding is simpley a function of using a higher voltage.


Post# 63269 , Reply# 18   4/15/2005 at 03:02 (6,922 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I guess rules overhere on the continent are a little less strict than in the UK. No switches on outlets and outlets in other rooms than kitchens, bathrooms and utility rooms aren't grounded. But every house overhere has a GFI.

Post# 63272 , Reply# 19   4/15/2005 at 03:44 (6,922 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
GFI's

are required on all NEW construction here for outlets in kitchens, bathrooms, and outdoors. Older homes can be retrofitted by either:

replacing circuit breaker with GFI style which then protects the entire circuit.

replacing single outlets in kitchens/baths/outdoors with GFI style.

Replacing first outlet in circuit with GFI, which can then be wired to protect all regualr outlets on teh circuit after it.

Additionally a lot of appliances like hair dryers, portable room heaters have GFI's built in as part of the plug assembly on the end of the cord.


Post# 63389 , Reply# 20   4/16/2005 at 21:45 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()        
European standards

Almost all European countries (except the UK and Ireland) use 16 amp 230V outlets. The circuits supplying these outlets are usually either 16 or 20A radials (star configuration) and are also protected by an RCD (GFCI)

(broadly similar to the way things are wired in the USA, just with 230V rather than 120)

The UK and Ireland adopted a rather odd and different approach:

Outlets (Sockets) are usually connected to a 32A "ring circuit" which operates a bit like a power bus serving a number of rooms. The circuit is connected to the breaker at both ends (i.e. it's fed with power from both ends). The outlets basically tap into this power bus.

Every plug in the UK and Ireland carries an individual fuse rated 1 to 13amps depending on the rating of the applience. This fuse protects the appliance and its cord from overcurrent faults.

Any applience that is "hardwired" must be connected via a "fused spur" which is basically a wall plate with the same fusing arrangement as a UK plug.

Most installations are also protected by an RCD (GFCI)

The advantage of this system is that any outlet can provide its maximum rated 13Amps without having to have too many dedicated radial circuits.
It makes wiring a little less complicated.

Also, because each plug carries a fuse, it's possible to have much more accurate protection of small appliances e.g. a lamp might have a 3amp fuse while a washer would have 13A)

The fuse provides the over-current / overload protection while the RCD on the panel provides shock protection.

-----

Because the UK and Ireland (as well as one or two other European countries) use outlets that cannot provide the full 16Amps (the general european standard) appliances often use clever power management software to slightly reduce the maximum load! (this is certainly true of some miele appliances) others simply use slightly lower power heaters in their UK / Ireland versions.

In general however, most appliances sold in Europe don't go above 3KW which works in all countries.


Post# 63392 , Reply# 21   4/16/2005 at 22:07 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()        

Also regarding the UK plugs and outlets vs. the "schuko" normal european grounded outlets.

The UK outlets originally needed a swich as it was very easy to touch the live pins while inserting / removing a plug. European outlets are recessed making it completely impossible to touch the pins. Thus, there is absolutely no need for a switch.

A European directive required the introduction of sheathed pins (they're partially covered in plastic) making it very difficult to get a shock from a modern UK plug.

The switches on outlets haven't been a requirement for a VERY long time, but people generally seem to prefer to keep them as they can be quite a handy feature. Many outlets are unswitched though.

Also, because European schuko outlets are recessed, most of the pin surface can be used to make contact. In a UK or US outlet the pins only make contact when almost fully inserted, this is because the outlet is not recessed it would be possible to touch the pins until that point. So, only the tips of the pins really make any connection. This reduces the surface area making contact and can result in hot pins / burn marks on outlets / etc.. It's not unusual to see a brown ring around the hot side of a UK outlet that's used to power heavy appliances e.g. electric kettles (3KW) ... particularly as the outlet ages and the contacts become looser!

On the safety comparison: While the UK may have earthing as standard since the introduction of the current plug/socket system in the 1950s the standard of wiring in a typical UK home can be quite low in comparison to many northern European countries where regulation of electrical work is far stricter.

E.g. old UK panels had re-wirable fuses. i.e. if a fuse blew you replaced it, not with a cartridge or a screw in fuse, but with a peice of fuse wire! (these are still common in the UK... [ireland used the standard german screw-in cartridge system]

Rewirable fuses simply don't exist and haven't existed since the 1920s in most other countries!

Regulation and inspection of electrical installations is also not as strict as it is elsewhere in Europe and electrical work, can in theory, be carried out by pretty much anyone who is reasonably competant.

Many othe European countries also have much much tighter requirements for RCDs (GFCIs) e.g. in Ireland ALL outlets must be protected by an RCD (that's been in force since the late 1970s)

So, really it depends how you look at it, while the UK plug and socket may in some ways be well designed and some aspects of the system may be quite good. In other areas it's far from the safest system in the world!

(Also regarding grounding / earthing.. European plugs don't use a ground pin, they use scraping contacts at the top and bottom of the plug which make contact with two springs on the recessed outlet. Or, alternatively (in france) the outlets have a grounding pin sticking out which fits a receiving hole in the front of the plug. The same plug works with both systems!)


Post# 63393 , Reply# 22   4/16/2005 at 22:19 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()        
for those of you who have never seen one

European grounded outlet CEE 7/4 (Originally German standard)

Used in almost all of Europe (variation in France which is still compatable)

Not used in : UK, Ireland, Italy, Switzerland and Denmark.

Used: Everywhere else including the entire former soviet union!

Basically the defacto standard.


Post# 63395 , Reply# 23   4/16/2005 at 22:23 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()        
The French variation

Used in France, Belgium and a couple of eastern european countries

CEE 7/5

Works with the standard european grounded plug, so no incompatablilty issues.


Post# 63397 , Reply# 24   4/16/2005 at 22:32 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()        
And absolutely finally... the UK fused plug

And finally, my last bit of international electrical systems education!

The UK fused plug (this is where the fuse goes in)


Post# 63401 , Reply# 25   4/16/2005 at 23:16 (6,920 days old) by Yaktx ()        
U.S. voltage/current

Actually, the specified method of calculation uses 120/240 as the standard voltage. 120*20=2400.

The 80% rule applies to "continuous" loads (3 hours or longer), and cord-and-plug connected loads. This is not always followed to the letter. My Whirlpool heavy-duty dryer states 23A heater, 4A motor. That's 27A on one leg. 27*1.25=33.75, yet it is cord-and-plug connected on a 30A circuit. It's rare to see a dryer that isn't. Of course I never run it on high, so it's more like 24A most of the time.

Manufacturers are free to overstate nameplate load and have a variety of reasons for doing so. My '98 Frigemore (Gibson brand, BTW) lists 12A. Actual amps: 6 on fast spin, 9 surge. I suspect the reason is that the Code has rules about dedicated circuits. 80% of circuit capacity max, so 12A maxes out a 15A circuit. More than 50%, and a dedicated circuit is required. 12*2>20. So don't bother calling Electrolux (or WCI, that's what my machine says) if your breaker trips because you plugged in your gas dryer to the same outlet. The Code says you are breaking the rules!

There is no design rule stating that a washer and gas dryer must be able to share a 20A circuit. The National Electrical Code does not explicitly mandate a second circuit installed for a gas dryer, but many local codes do (if there is a gas valve installed at the same location). It is always a good idea.

Incidentally, anybody see any new hairdryers rated less than 1875 watts? A 120V 15A outlet is actually rated 125V, 15A, so the manufacturers get creative and say 125*15=1875. Sounds more powerful, but if your wall gives you 120V, you are going to get 1800W.

Oh, and get those vacuums. They figured out that "POWERFUL 12 AMP MOTOR!!!!" sounds much more sexy than "POWERFUL 1/3 HP MOTOR!!!!"


Post# 63404 , Reply# 26   4/16/2005 at 23:38 (6,920 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
More examples of voltge and socket configurations.

toggleswitch's profile picture
Post# 63420 , Reply# 27   4/17/2005 at 03:21 (6,920 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
30 amp dryer outlet

"The 80% rule applies to "continuous" loads (3 hours or longer), and cord-and-plug connected loads. This is not always followed to the letter. My Whirlpool heavy-duty dryer states 23A heater, 4A motor. That's 27A on one leg. 27*1.25=33.75, yet it is cord-and-plug connected on a 30A circuit. It's rare to see a dryer that isn't. Of course I never run it on high, so it's more like 24A most of the time."

Actually, the heater is split between TWO legs of the 230 volt circuit. The motor and controls will be on one leg or the other, so one leg will be loaded a little more than the other


Post# 63432 , Reply# 28   4/17/2005 at 09:41 (6,919 days old) by cybrvanr ()        

Many of the times, the ampere rating is designed to protect not just the outlet, but also the WIRING between the outlet and the breaker (or fuse) box.

I worked a job at the school here where we first went into an auditorium and determined we would need a 30 ampere, 115 volt circuit to power the amplifiers for the surround-sound system they wanted. The room currently had a standard 15 ampere circuit common everywhere here in the USA.

We came back a week later to install the equipment and saw a 30 ampere outlet ready to go that we eventually connected up all the high-power audio amplifiers and other sound equipment to. After everything was in, we put a few CD's into the system and gave it a "test drive". When the music got loud, the amplifiers started cutting out and getting flakey. I determined that the amplifiers were overheating, so I checked speaker impedances and everything else. It came down to the fact that the amplifiers had a serious voltage drop across them whenever the sound would start cranking...but why?

The idiot electrician at the school simply used the existing piece of 14 gauge wire that was installed for the old 15 ampere circuit to make his so-called 30 ampere circuit by just replacing the breaker at the box with a 30, and changing the outlet from the standard outlet to the bigger 30 ampere plug!

Imagine if the amplifiers were not "smart" enough to shut down when the load got heavy! We could have had a major fire on our hands from overheated wire!


Post# 63445 , Reply# 29   4/17/2005 at 12:04 (6,919 days old) by Mrx ()        
Doesn't sound good!

Are you sure that guy was an electrician?!

Post# 63446 , Reply# 30   4/17/2005 at 12:13 (6,919 days old) by Mrx ()        
Here's the 16amp standard CEE 7/7

Found in almost all of Europe (Except UK, Ireland, Italy, Denmark and Switzerland)

(Italy is now adopting a comprimse standard that accepts Italian 3pin plugs and CEE 7/7 as many appliances ship with the CEE 7/7 rather than the italian plug fitted.)

All European outlets (except the UK and Ireland) accept a common 2-pin non-grounded flat plug used on small appliances.


Post# 63448 , Reply# 31   4/17/2005 at 12:45 (6,919 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
bad bad electrician

toggleswitch's profile picture
That's almost as stupid as putting a penny behind a plug-type ("edison"?)fuse to prevent it from blowing. No protection to wires.

For our international friends, that copper coin (penny) allows the side contacts to be fed electricity from the back contact, and the threaded-in fuse (has threads in like an American light-bulb) just then holds the penny in place.

MAJOR no-no!!!

I think these are similar to "German-style" plug fuses mentioned earlier by another member.


Post# 63459 , Reply# 32   4/17/2005 at 15:54 (6,919 days old) by MrX ()        

The German style fuses (used in much of Europe) are called "Diazed" the newer compact version is "neozed"

They're a little bit different to the US edison fuses in so far as you can't overfuse a circuit without considerable "hacking".

There's a screw in fuse holder, into which you insert a beer bottle shaped fuse. The diameter of the tip of the fuse corresponds to its rating and a ring in the bottom of the fuse holder will only accept that size.




Post# 63460 , Reply# 33   4/17/2005 at 16:05 (6,919 days old) by MrX ()        

There's a European neozed and diazed panel side-by-side. The Neozed fuses are just miniturised so that they can be slotted into a modern sized panel.

As far as I know the system was developed by siemens or AEG in the early days of power distribution.

You can't really hack them quite as easily as a US plug-fuse with a coin!

When the fuse blows a little coloured disk appears in the window of the screw in fuse cap.

Similar, but not quite the same as a US Edison fuse.

Mostly breakers thesedays though!


Post# 63498 , Reply# 34   4/17/2005 at 19:59 (6,919 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
U.S

The original screw-in "Edison" type fuses were always a problem in that the different amp ratings had the same size scew threads, allowing over-fusing and the "penny" thing. They do make a type of screw-in fuse called Type S. These use adapters that screw into the Edison base reeptacles and have little prongs that keep them from being unscrewed. The threads in these adapters will then allow ONLY the correct rated fuse to be screwed into it, i.e, a 30 amp Type S fuse CANNOT be screwed into a 15 amp adapter. There was also, for a while, a product that was a circuit breaker constructed to screw into Edison base fuse receptacles, thereby converting fuses to circuit breakers. A button would pop out when the breaker tripped. I had these in a 1925 house I used to live in back in the 70's that still had the original 2 wire 30 amp 120 volt service in it.

Post# 63514 , Reply# 35   4/17/2005 at 21:29 (6,919 days old) by MrX ()        
Modern European Panel (French in this case)

Explanation of the numbered items:

1) Meter
2) Main Switch (to isolate entire home. It also provides very basic RCD/GFCI protection and overcurrent protection so you can't over load the service)
3) RCD (Residual Current Device) (Same as GFCI)... several of these on the panel.
4) Circuit Breakers
5) RCD (as explained above)
6) Lightening / Spike protection.
7) Emergency lamp (removes from the panel should the power go and you need to see!.. it charges while inserted)
8) "Energy management moduels" ... these control the temprature of heating (space and water) and make the best use of low night rate tarrifs for various appliances e.g. washers / dryers / dishwashers etc.
9) Water heater timer and remote switch.
10) Remote switching
11) Remote dimming
12) dial-in remote control unit.. you can phone up turn on lights/water/etc with a touchtone phone + pin.
13) Automatic window shutter controls (roller shutters, both manual and automatic are very common in france)

All european panels use the "DIN rail" system which allows you to add any number of modules to do all sorts of things. These kind of energy efficiency / home automation sollutions are becoming far more common.

A normal panel would still look similar and have all of the breakers and protective devices and perhaps fewer timers!




Post# 63526 , Reply# 36   4/17/2005 at 23:11 (6,919 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Night rate tarrifs.

toggleswitch's profile picture
WOW. AN AMAZING FRENCH Electrical PANEL.

Anyone else have day /night rates ("Peak"/"Off-peak)?

Many areas (I have seen these in FL, MA and NY states) have electronic devices that turn off electric water heaters, the central air-conditioner and/or the pool filter. In exchange for the intrusion and inconvenience the power company grants the particular consumer a discount.

I think US power rates are highest in
HAWAII, then Long Island, then NYC. Anyone have a site or know about this?

Last I recall NYC was $0.12 (12 cents) per KwH (Before taxes)


Post# 63529 , Reply# 37   4/18/2005 at 01:13 (6,919 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
electric rates

try this link

CLICK HERE TO GO TO kenmore1978's LINK


Post# 63531 , Reply# 38   4/18/2005 at 01:20 (6,919 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
power rates

NY is high, but HI blows it away!

Post# 63533 , Reply# 39   4/18/2005 at 06:12 (6,919 days old) by MrX ()        
Night Rate

We've had night rate power in Ireland for many decades. Basically at midnight (or 11pm) the meter starts counting on a night rate dial.

Old installations had 2 meters and a huge time switch (the same size as a meter) that swapped meters at midnight without interrupting the supply obviously.

From the 1970s they just combined 2 dials into one meter the time switch just sent an impulse to tell it to switch dial.

and more recently the meters are digital and just store two sets of KWH counts for day and night rate.

You can buy washers, dryers and dishwashers that are designed to take advantage of night rate power. They've a delay timer on the control panel. You just select how many hours you want the machine to wait before starting.

The main use of night rate power here remains "storage heating". Your house had "storage heaters" which are basically electric heaters full of special heat-retaining bricks. At night, the elements come on and heat the bricks up (taking advantage of the night rate power). The heater then, using dampers and fans, controls how much heat's given out during the day and uses little or no day-rate power.

The hot water tank is also typically highly insulated and would be programmed to fully heat over night at the cheaper rate.

Exactly the same setup is used in the UK and elsewhere.



Post# 63633 , Reply# 40   4/19/2005 at 05:35 (6,918 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
Night Rate and Rewireable fuses

Hi All,

Off Peak as we call it here has existed since the 1970's or perhaps even earlier,

We have 3 levels of Power,

Always on - Used for General outlets, stoves, a/c, and so forth.

Ecconomy - Guarenteed power for 18 hours per day, but could subject to load shedding in Summer. Used for Heat exchanger hot water, Pool Pumps, Dishwashers, dryers etc.

Super Ecconomy - 8 hours of power per day, usually between 10pm and 6am. Mainly used for Storage hotwater units.

There are different tarrifs for each of the levels, and it is necessary to have a second meter for either of the ecconomy options. My grandmothers and mothers off peak circuits have a manual switch to change the off peak circuits from Econnomy to Day rate, if you need power on the circuit outside of the off peak hours.

Rewireable fuses only saw their demise, with the wide acceptance of Circuit Breakers in the 80's. There never really was any other alternative in australia, you had a circuit breaker or a rewireable fuse.


Post# 63638 , Reply# 41   4/19/2005 at 05:46 (6,918 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
US fuses

I forgot about "cartridge" fuses. These were shaped like the fuses used in cars and electronic devices but were MUCH larger and weren't made of glass. There was no way to tell if they were blown, one had to replace it with a known good one. They wre inserted into bakelite "blocks" that had handles on them. These blocks then wre plugged into the electrical panel. I think they were introduced in the 30's someone correct me if I'm wrong. Lower amp rated cartridges snapped in like the aforementioned car fuses and contact was made on the round ends. Higher rated fuses had blades on the end of the round part and the blade part is where contact was made.

Post# 63640 , Reply# 42   4/19/2005 at 05:57 (6,918 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
US cartridge fuses

toggleswitch's profile picture
yes....yes.... plug-style threaded edison screw-base fuses went up to 30 amps... above that cartridge fuses were used.

yes..the bakelight blocks were like "caddys" or "beds" for the fuses making them easy-to-change.


These were used for electric stoves and protecting main service in residences, as well as larger commerical/industrial loads.


Post# 63642 , Reply# 43   4/19/2005 at 05:59 (6,918 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
request for time-of-day heaters link

toggleswitch's profile picture
Ayone have a web-link for time-of-day load-shifting heaters?

MrX?

Thank you


Post# 63645 , Reply# 44   4/19/2005 at 06:31 (6,918 days old) by Mrx ()        

BRISNAT81,

That's quite a complicated set of tarrifs.

Our system only has 2 rates night and day. There's no different service / interrupted power. All that happens is at 12AM GMT the meter switches to a second KWH dial and at 8AM it switches back to day rate.

All appliances drawing power after midnight use it.

The annoying bit is that the meter's incapable of making the summer time / winter time adjustment. (well the old ones anyway)

So, when the time changes, the meter still switches at 12AM GMT (rather than 12AM GMT+1 summer time)


Post# 63745 , Reply# 45   4/20/2005 at 05:31 (6,917 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
30 amp main service

The house we lived in in the Seventies still had its original 2 wire 120 volt 30 amp service AND both sides of each circuit were fused (for safety reasons I removed the fuses on the neutral side of the main and branch circuits and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted) Unlike a lot of houses of the time, there actually were adquate branch circuits, and even one spare circuit that we later utilized, but the 30 amp main was a problem. We had to live like the Douglases on "Green Acres". Had a chart taped to the wall with the amp draw of each appliance listed. Always had to allow 5 amps for the refrigerator. All it took was one thing too many and we'd be sitting in the dark. Even when the load was kept under 30 amps, the little block inside the main 30 amp time delay fuse would literally glow dull red at times. As I mentioned before, the fuses were eventually replaced with little circuit breakers that screwed in place of the fuses. Eventually I purchased new wire capable of carrying 80 amps, bypassed the original entrance wire and used a 50 amp electric range breaker salvaged from a friend's house as the main breaker. This worked excellently until we did some re-modeling in 1978 and that setup was replaced with a modern 100 amp service entrance with modern breakers

Post# 63779 , Reply# 46   4/20/2005 at 16:38 (6,916 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        

toggleswitch's profile picture
Kenmore1978:

"...and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted)"

What is an insulating disc?


Sounds like an apt I had. Same deal==> 30a 110v, 2 fuses.
I cheated a little and put in 20a and a 15a. Same as above, I had the screw-in breakers. (That replace plug fuses.)

When everyone was using their A/C the main fuses in the basement would blow due to the heat generated from the NEIGHBORING fuse and in the panels, generally...even when WAY under limit in usage. And naturally, the landlord would be away on vacation (holiday) when this happened and we'd be out of power for 2 days. JOY JOY JOY!

I put up with this non-sense for years, until I got sneaky and plugged the ref. and the A/C as well as the TV and a lamp into a hallway outlet, metered to the landlord. LOL (but only on such "special" occasions!!!) Amazing how much quicker the power was restored when HIS (hallway) fuses started to blow and the hallways were partially dark. LOL


Luckily, I found (or should I say paid dearly for) a new air-conditioner for the window that was 10,500 Btu/h and only took 7.5amps!! It had the highest energy-efficiency ratio around at the time of 12.0+/- ("Most" economical) The ratio = Btu/h divided by watts. (Watts = volts X amps)

luckily such a "small" A/C was just barely enough to keep the place dry and from becoming a steam-bath (In NYC it's the humidity more than the heat that makes summers exremely uncomfortatble.

[As a reference point for our international friends 10,000 to 12,000 Btu/hr (British thermal units) is approximately one gas burner on top of the stove set to full-flame. or enough to cool two average rooms (12 foot square or 3.6 meters square) in "my" climate. ]

Those were the days.

BTW ==> the rule of thumb for (electric) heating in this part of US is 10 watts per square foot (with 8 or 9 foot ceilings) and 1 watt per cubic foot for irregular ceilings (vaulted, extra-tall, sloped etc.)

one watt = 3.4 Btu.

12 x 12 foot room = 144 Square feet.
144 x 10 watts = 1,440
1,440 watts * 3.4 Btu = 4,896 Btu which rounded is 5,000 Btu.

1,440 watts / 120 volts = 12 amps (80% of 15) Therefore a room heater can be plugged into a regular general-duty outlet/socket in the US, but without much more on the line!!!!

Now can someone explain to me Kilo-watts as a unit of cooling capacity?

Just another numbers game: for US gas-fired domestic water-heaters, storage type

30 US gallon ==> usually 30,000 Btu/Hr
40 US gallon ==>usually 40,000 Btu/h
50 US gallon ==> usually 50,000 Btu/h

More Btu/h is a "better" or actually faster one,
less are usually slower (BOL models)


Too much said.
Regards All



Post# 63821 , Reply# 47   4/20/2005 at 20:52 (6,916 days old) by Yaktx ()        
Cartridge Fuses

"I think they were introduced in the 30's someone correct me if I'm wrong."

According to the Square D website, the cartridge fuse was patented in 1903 by the McBride Manufacturing Company, the predecessor to Square D. A few years later, the company changed its name to the Detroit Fuse & Manufacturing Company, and bought the American patents to a British design of externally-operable safety switch.

The notoriously tamper-prone North American plug fuse, which shares the same thread as our light bulbs, is usually called an Edison fuse, as they were invented by Thomas Edison about 1882. He is said to have been inspired by the screw cap on a can of kerosene. The first Edison fuse, as well as the fuse block that accepted it, was made of wood (!!) but was soon changed to porcelain and glass. And as somebody noted, it was common practice to fuse neutrals until about 1930 or so.

If you live in a house with a service this old:

Owners, upgrade!
Renters, move!

Otherwise, bypassing the neutral fuses is probably a good idea, provided you know for certain which ones are the neutrals. Don't ever bypass or overfuse the hot!

I gather most folks here don't need that last piece of advice, but it can't hurt to repeat it.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yaktx's LINK


Post# 63829 , Reply# 48   4/20/2005 at 21:05 (6,916 days old) by Yaktx ()        
Pennies

A few people mentioned pennies behind plug fuses. Thought I'd share my favorite thread on the subject.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yaktx's LINK


Post# 63870 , Reply# 49   4/21/2005 at 02:22 (6,916 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        

""...and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted)"

What is an insulating disc?"

The socket is contructed in such a way that power entered trough a center screw to the base of the fuse, than out through the shell of the socket to a brass piece shaped like football goal posts. The insulating disc separated those 2 elements. After removal the center screw and shell contacts could be screwed together.


Post# 63881 , Reply# 50   4/21/2005 at 05:24 (6,916 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
GOTCHA!

toggleswitch's profile picture
Thanks.

ah,,,round plug-fuse holders..... For some reason, I assumed you were talking about outlets! (power-points => UK)



Post# 64059 , Reply# 51   4/23/2005 at 08:54 (6,913 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Electrical overloads

toggleswitch's profile picture
To Yaktx:

OMG... are people really that clue-less? Do the laws of physics not apply in their homes?


I know a retired fire inspector who married and moved into his wife's co-op apartment which she had owned before they met. She had her kitchen re-done and the contractor hired an electrician..... and as you may know co-ops are really anal-retentive about getting and approving licensed people. So everyone assumed this wire-worker was half-way awake. Apparently not. The electrician put the washing machine, the dishwasher and a counter-top outlet on one line. Needless to say it is the only outlet on the counter and used for the coffee-maker and the toaster simultaneously.

I pointed out my objections to the husband and wife team and he (the retired fire-inspector) agreed with me. The problem was "resolved" by them staggering the load. [I am a former accountant now into real-estate and you are a fire-inspector I had to tell YOU there was a problem????]

Me? I would have had at least four lines for that mess, with an appliance-duty quad on the counter. A quad is two adjacent duplex outlets (2 x 2 = 4) on two separate lines. A three wire cable is split into two circuits.

Scarier even is that the circuit breaker panel is right above the wall that all these loads/appliances share and that the attic (soffit ==> UK) above is open. Anyone could have easily and quickly fished throught the needed cables before, duing or after the renovation.

SIGH-- I just give up sometimes.


Post# 64125 , Reply# 52   4/24/2005 at 09:08 (6,912 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
light bulb in fuse socket.

toggleswitch's profile picture
"The notoriously tamper-prone North American plug fuse, which shares the same thread as our light bulbs"


An electrican came to my parents' house years ago to upgrade some service. The cicruit handling the light above his head was de-energized.

He simply stuck a jumper wire from the neutral bus to the one side of the fuse-holding socket. The other side of the fuse-holder, of course, was already connected to the hot/live bus... and proceeded to screw in a standard light bulb.

So simple and so obvious when pointed out; but not a conclusion one would necessarily have come to on one's own.


Post# 64131 , Reply# 53   4/24/2005 at 09:42 (6,912 days old) by Mrx ()        
UK/Ireland bayonet light bulb

The edison screw-in bulb isn't necessarily the standard in Europe, although that does vary from country to country.

In the UK and Ireland at least the Bayonet fitting is the norm.

The picture's actually a Philips CFL (Compact Flourecent Light) that is designed to look very like an ordanary light bulb.

You can see the bayonet fitting on the end.


Post# 64189 , Reply# 54   4/25/2005 at 05:15 (6,912 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
Bayonet base bulbs

Interesting, the only place you generally see bayonet base bulbs here is where vibration is a problem, i.e. cars, appliances like washers, dishwashers, sewing machines.

Post# 64219 , Reply# 55   4/25/2005 at 10:42 (6,911 days old) by designgeek ()        

Yow!, this is an incredibly useful topic! I can see myself copying info from here into my internal archive for future use.

Electric heat with storage bricks, to use offpeak rates to heat up the bricks, which in turn heat the house during the day: brilliant idea, incredibly elegant. Dual rate meters standard: excellent! No wonder folks in Europe have the same degree of comfort & convenience as we do in the US but for half the energy consumption.

I suspect these things are going to start getting used in the US as soon as the next oil crunch hits (a few years from now). Or at least I hope so. Even if you've got solar on the roof or a windfarm or nuclear reactor nearby, it's still going to pay off to invest in efficiency.

Pennies from Heaven: Ha, that item in the electricians' site about the person asking their electrician if they should put new pennies in the fusebox, was tragic comedy. She should be lucky she didn't end up dead. Ditto the ones with mouse nests in their panels: say Hello to Mr. Fire!

I don't know how safe my wiring is where I live (rental property), so I don't leave anything high-wattage plugged in unattended (aside from the fridge), and I also don't run two or more things with heating elements at the same time. Heck I don't even use the toaster if the microwave is on, or the vacuum and washer at the same time. It's not hard to keep track of the high-wattage things and use only one at a time.

I think it would be very interesting to have power meters located inside houses, in places where people can see them i.e. in the kitchen, to show what the power usage is at any given time. A simple ammeter would work for geeks like me, something more "user-friendly" would work for people who don't have an intuitive feel for voltage & current.

Re. "interruptable" power at discount rates: have three loops in the house and let people choose what to plug into each. So for instance, ordinarily the dishwasher is on a lower-priority loop, but on the night of a dinner party it gets moved to the high-priority loop, or the TV gets moved on the night you're watching a major sporting event. In my case the phone system and core computer network (DSL modem, hub, Macintosh laptop, Windows laptop, and Linux/BSD router) all get high priority, along with the fridge.


Post# 64225 , Reply# 56   4/25/2005 at 11:36 (6,911 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Screw-in bulbs

foraloysius's profile picture
Overhere in the Netherlands the screw-in bulbs are the norm. You only see the bayonet ones in ovens etc.

Post# 64238 , Reply# 57   4/25/2005 at 16:26 (6,911 days old) by cybrvanr ()        
overloaded electrical grids!!!

The biggest electrical nightmare was at a campground my parents and I frequented when I was a kid. The campgrounw was originally equipped in the seventies with 200 ampere service, and 12 campsite outlets rated at 15 amperes each. Along with the campsites, the bathroom was also on the same line. The showers were heated with a propane water heater, so that electrical load was not a problem. The biggest campground load was the water pump to supply water from the well to the campsite and the bathrooms.

Well, in the eighties, rooftop air conditioners became commonplace on RV's, and likewise the power requirements went up. The campground upgraded all the campsites to 30 ampere circuits so people could run air conditioners. Then, due to the demand for electricity sites, they electrified 30 more campsites. Now, we have a total of 18, 30 ampere sites for a total of 540 amperes!!!

Now, most RV air conditioners don't use all 30 amperes. Most are in the 12,000 BTU to 18, BTU range, and pull about 15-20 amperes at 120 volts. There are still cooking appliances in many of the new RV's that run off of electricity though, like microwaves, coffee pots, etc. Needless to say, the electrical system was a disaster waiting to happen, and happen it did!!!

During one 4th of July weekend, we had a nice fireworks show of our own when the main 200 ampere breaker kept blowing. The campground was filled with vacationers that weekend, and everyone had their air conditioners on, cooking food, and doing all sorts of other stuff that demands lots of electricity. (Yea, I know, hard to call it camping!!!) That was when some nice person though it would be good to keep the main breaker from tripping by putting a broom handle against it, and "propping" it on. A few hours later we start hearing this hissing sound coming from the vicinity of the the utility pole in the middle of camp. One person said "Look up! Get the helloutta tha way!!!" I looked up and noticed the "can" transformer at the top of the telephone pole was glowing red hot, and sparks and smoke was shooting out the top of it. Not long after that, the campground went dark with a big POW!!! That was when the fuse blew up on the utility pole!!!

The power company came later on that evening, about 8 hours after the thing burned out and replaced the transformer. They said it was still too hot to touch, even then! The original transformer feeding the camp was a little 12 KW transformer. (12KW / 240 volts =50 amperes!) We were drawing almost 5 times the rated capacity of the transformer. The electric company put a 50 KW can on the pole for us, and everything was fine until a day or two later...remember, the broomstick is STILL in the breaker panel!!!

Now, the only thing keeping the mains wiring from buring up was the fact that the tiny can transformer was limiting the current fairly well. Now that we had a transformer that could handle the load, the rest of the wiring didn't stand a chance. I was out on my sailboat just offshore when I heard the fire alarm going off in town. My girlfriend had just taken a shower and was walking back to the RV when she describes what she saw to me: "a line of fire start from the bathroom fuse box and went right up to the telephone pole. A short while later, the wire broke off and fell to the ground with all sorts of bright sparks and smoke going all over the place and making lots of loud noises!" Again, the power company paid for this one, since it was ahead of the meter, but that got the campground's administration on their toes and got the entire place re-wired with 3 phase 400 ampere service!

I looked at the old box that came out of there when the electricians were hooking things up the new service. The breaker box had definitely seen some extreme heat over the time. The paint was all charred off the back panel, and all the plastic insulators were melted and charred too! It's a wonder it didn't burst into flames either!!!

...Needless to say, we've never had any more electrical fireworks now that we have plenty of power to deal with!!!


Post# 64261 , Reply# 58   4/25/2005 at 19:03 (6,911 days old) by Stainfighter (Columbia, SC)        
back to discussion topic...

stainfighter's profile picture
anyone own a Danby? I've read these are manufactured by Gorenje. If my Fridgidaire F/L ever goes beyond the point of no return I might be tempted. The capacity would be enough for the two of us as we don't really fill the Fridg now...

Post# 64294 , Reply# 59   4/25/2005 at 21:50 (6,911 days old) by cybrvanr ()        

I've got a Danby...quite a nice little washer! I like the directly accessable controls. Instead of pre-sets for different fabrics and such, like the traditional American washers, you set everything manually, like spin-speed, water temprature, etc. I like that method better, because I can customize the way it washes. The built-in water heater will kick up the temprature to 190 degrees from a 140 degree input...THAT'S HOT!!! It does take a strong 12 amperes off the line when the water heater has kicked in. Capacity is a little more than half at 2.0 cu/ft, of the fridgemore style front loaders, which is 3.5 cu/ft...fine for me, since not only am I a small guy, I am single, and don't really dirty up stuff that quickly.

Post# 64335 , Reply# 60   4/26/2005 at 06:05 (6,911 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
rental property power

"I don't know how safe my wiring is where I live (rental property), so I don't leave anything high-wattage plugged in unattended (aside from the fridge), and I also don't run two or more things with heating elements at the same time. Heck I don't even use the toaster if the microwave is on, or the vacuum and washer at the same time. It's not hard to keep track of the high-wattage things and use only one at a time."

Just because a property is a rental doesn't mean the electrical situation shouldn't be inpsected. I've always checked out the electrical situation in any place where I've lived or where I've helped friends move into, making sure outlets were modernized with grounded outlets, fuses sized correctly if so equipped, and all the circuits mapped out and described in the fuse/circuit breaker panel so people would know what controlled what.


Post# 64336 , Reply# 61   4/26/2005 at 06:17 (6,911 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Going way back in the thread/conversation.

toggleswitch's profile picture
"Now can someone explain to me Kilo-watts as a unit of cooling capacity? "

MrX?


ALOS:

And please excuse my ignorance, I am a prooduct of my zip (postal) code. LOL

If I wanted to bring a water-hog US washer (aside from the electrical issues) to metric system lands, would the threads on the water intake valve be the same size as is used there?

Here is why I ask. Lighbulbs for use in the US that are imported don't fit well. They go in sorta OK, but usually break while being removed (unscrewed) that .5mm probably makes all the difference. I am assuming that the translation of a US? /Imperial?/ English system? size in inches into metrics is the minor malfuntion?



Post# 64343 , Reply# 62   4/26/2005 at 06:53 (6,911 days old) by cybrvanr ()        

Kilo-watts can vary greatly as far as cooling capacity goes, depending on the efficiency ratio of the air conditioner. The way efficiency EFFICIENCY RATIO = BTU PER HOUR / WATTAGE CONSUMED. This information is published on the "energyguide" sticker on the unit, but if not avaliable, look for the power consumption plaque, and calculate it against the cooling power of the unit.

The wattage consumed by an air conditioner can vary greatly depending on how efficienct it is. At the bottom of the scale are window units in the 8.0 efficiciency range. For each watt the unit consumes, it produces 8 BTU/HR of cooling. A 5000 BTU/hr air conditioner with this efficiency ratio would consume 625 watts doing it. Window units can sometimes get as high as 12 efficicency ratio, but it is rare, the average is about 10 or so.

Central and installed air conditioners are mandated for a minimum efficiency ratio of 10. Most though are in the 13-15 range, and a few are even as high as 17. Installed systems can be more efficient than window units because they can be built larger with bigger coils, and larger fan units than their window unit counterparts.

The same efficiency calculation applies to heat pumps too, since they are just air conditioners running in reverse. It does NOT however apply to electric resistance heating. The amount of heat you get out of a resistive electric heater is pretty much set in stone. Don't let the advertising fool you! If it consumes the same power, it puts out the same amount of heat!


Post# 64347 , Reply# 63   4/26/2005 at 07:37 (6,911 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Killo-Watts

toggleswitch's profile picture
Gotcha, thank you.


I was more intrigued by places outside the US (probably all counties.. LOL) that do not use or recognize BTU/h but rate the capacity (as well as the draw/load) in kilo-watts. I think there is sometimes a spread between the two (load and capacity Kilo-watts) which may be "THEIR" way of determining efficiency.

International friends..What say you?


Post# 64356 , Reply# 64   4/26/2005 at 09:07 (6,910 days old) by designgeek ()        


Broom handle in the fuse box: So did the idiot who did that ever get arrested and charged with a crime? BTW, when the original transformer was glowing red hot, it was probably also leaking transformer oil... you guessed it... PCBs... dioxin... "Camping," heh.

Re. air conditioning: Something I've noticed in a lot of offices lately: when the AC cycles to Off, the ambient humidity suddenly seems to increase. This is truly weird. I've taken to carrying a small desk-stand fan around to jobsites to put on the ground in the PBX room & keep me reasonably comfortable during those instances. So, am I correct that the humidity is actually going up when the AC is off, and what causes that? (I know that airconditioned air is lower humidity, but the increase of humidity seems like "more than" just the effect of the AC turning off.)

It surprises me that more houses aren't built with geothermal systems: a network of pipes buried under the basement slab, conducting a heat-transfer fluid to & from some kind of thermal or forced-air transfer system in the house. The earth under the slab is at a constant 55 degrees Fahrenheit in most places, which would keep the house at that temp as a baseline, thus significantly lowering the heating & cooling bills.


Post# 64375 , Reply# 65   4/26/2005 at 11:55 (6,910 days old) by mrx ()        
Measuring Air Conditioner outputs

Watts are a measure of power.

A european air conditioner would have a power output in watts of refridgeration. It would have its power consumption in watts too.

Just like the way microwaves are sold by their watts of microwave output rather than their rated power consumption. e.g. an 850W microwave would use considerably more than that in terms of power consumption.

Also, vaccum cleaners are (or should be) rated in AirWatts of suction produced, not by the wattage of the motor! An inefficient machine will use more power and produce poor suction.

Put simply, one British Thermal Unit [Btu] is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of 1 pound [ lb.] of water 1 degree Fahrenheit. (About as non metric and awkward a unit as you can get!)

BTUs are no longer official units in the UK/Ireland anymore despite their name. So, A/C and heating units here are sold in KW output thesedays, not BTU/Hour.


Post# 64473 , Reply# 66   4/27/2005 at 07:02 (6,910 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)        
Thanks for the info

toggleswitch's profile picture
A per my usual style a novel ensues:

A/C off-cycle humidity:

Yes, as the evaporator coil warms up during the comrpessor "off" cycle the air also warms up increasing its capacity to hold moisture. Therefore any remaining moisture on that coil (that has not yet fallen to the condensate pan)get picked up by the air. So I agree with you... the air does get more humid.

Try using the "power-saver" switch such that the fan cycles with the compressor. (Works best in hot climates.) In some areas like mine we tend not to use it because as the outside air cools at night and the house is still hot, without the fan running constantly to pull indoor air over the thermostat the unit would not sufficiently cool the room. Now with remote controls as soon as one actually monitors the room temperature, this may all change.

Often cooling systems/units here are oversized and won't properly dehumidify. Solution: get a dehumidifier, or a small A/C to run constantly as a supplement which will serve to dehumidify.

In my ideal world, if home refrigerator were by an outside wall, I'd put a powerful a/c over it. To be used when cooking, when the house is full of people, for fast cooling when getting home from work, etc. This would allow for the main cooling unit/system to be properly (or slightly under-) sized. of course a supplemental unit is not limited to the kitchen.




BTU's

I figured this was a dinosaur of a unit.
One pound of water? What a pain that is!!!!


A US gallon weighs 7.7 US pounds.
I believe 8.0 pounds is used (rouned off?)
(maybe an imperial gallon is 8.0 lbs (pounds)?

gallon= 4 quarts 16 cups
quart = 2 pints (4cups) (comparable to a litre)
pint = 2 cups
cup= 8.0 fluid ounces

A cup = 8 fluid ounces
because 8lbs/16 cups = 1/2 pound or 8 oz per cup.

Looks like fluid measure and sold (weight) measure are inter-linked. For solid/weight measure there are 16 ounces per pound.

OK, SIGH maybe the metric system does have SOME advantages. LOL

So how many Kw of cooling capacity (not power draw) would be needed for an average bedroom ?



Post# 64526 , Reply# 67   4/27/2005 at 14:11 (6,909 days old) by mrx ()        
Natural a/c

Toggleswitch,

I don't actually know as the climate in Ireland's pretty much naturally air conditioned. It's extremely rare to have any form of air conditioning in a residential setting. Although, you do occasionally see split units in conservatories / sun rooms (glass room on the back of a house)

Air conditioning is often installed in large buildings and in some stores etc

The typical temprature outdoors here is between 10C (50F) and 27C (80F).



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