Thread Number: 1795
American vs. European Washers and Dryers |
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Post# 63020   4/12/2005 at 19:14 (6,924 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Hi all. I'm new to the site, after finally "coming out" with my attraction to this amazing site and its wonderful guys and ladies. So here's me splling my guts. (Please take it all as "IMHO") Subject: Regarding heaters in new (to the American market) F/L washers. (sorry.... can't find the original thread.) The appliances we see overall are generally engineered to fit our electrical systems. Here is what I mean. Keep in mind.... AMPS X VOLTS = WATTS In the US.... we generally have at least a 20 amp appliance circuit for the laundry room where: 20 amps @ 115 volts = 2,300 watts. Code says we can plan/allow a load of 80% max per circuit. (80% of 20 amps = 16 amps) Therefore a washer and a GAS dryer = 10 + 6 amps respectively or 16 amps total, and can be safley/legally put on one 20 amp line. This is the maximum electical load. (So the added load of a water-heating element doesn't work in this scenario.) Even if we were to run a washer alone on a separate line there would still be a very limited number of amps available on a 15 or 20 amp US circuit (esp, considering many US washers are rated at/ use 9 or 10 amps.) to run a water-heating element. This would also necessitate running a gas dryer on another electrical line. (An electric dryer would already be on a separate heavy-duty 30 amp line.) Now: In Europe they seem to use two 13 amp circuits (general-duty for their metric wire-gauges; our equivalent general-duty lines are rated 15 amps) in the laundry room. The washer on one line, and an electric dryer on the other. (Which means they can plug a full-size/speed dryer into any outlet in their homes... as long as it's not the same line as the washer.) 13 amps @ 230 volts = 2,990 watts. Assuming that they too can only go to 80% max. of 13 amps = 10.4 amps.... (so let's say 10.5 rounded) Their electric dryers are SLOWER because the wattage of their full-size machines is necessarily lower,(less than 3,000 watts I believe) to use the available 13 amp 220 volt sockets. Now: More importantly than 220V countries having about 700 watts more to start with, (and then not having to share the socket with a dryer) is that WATTS / VOLTS = AMPS 2,000 watts / 230 V = 8.69 amps 2,000 watts / 115 V = 17.39 amps (where 2,000 is a randomly chosen wattage of say.. the water-heating element) ...so Europe and other 220 V countries can pack a much larger number of watts on a line and still keep the amps low due to their higher voltage. In summation they CAN add a water heating element because of their electrical voltage and they way their use of power in the laundry room has evolved. For us it is much more difficult unless more electrical capacity is brought to the laundry room. Thanks for listening and please be gentle when commenting. Thanks and great to be aboard... |
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Post# 63055 , Reply# 6   4/13/2005 at 06:10 (6,924 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Thanks all. Very cool. Learning a lot every time I log-on. -esp gas dryer power draw with ignitor off, (Tks Kenmore1978) One-piece stackables (washer & gas dryer) (110 v) have a plug made for a 20 amp outlet [One prong is horizontal] to prevent insertion onto a 15 amp outlet (BTW 12 amp is the max @ 80%) Most compact electric dryers draw something like 12 to 14/15 amps, and will frequently partially melt an oultet or at least brown and enlarge the openings, (especially if many loads are done in succession) when used on a 15a line. Code allows the use of a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit -- in residences only-- not commerical use. So it is frequently seen... at least in my area in/around NYC. TIP: use 20 amp receptacles on 20 amp lines. Industrial grade-- even better. Those of use who like to play with plug-in major appliances...resulting in maxing out circuits... I'd personally replace 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones just to avoid such melt-downs. I'd also use electrical tape around outlets and switches to cover the screw terminals and prevent shorting against metal splice/oultet boxes should the outlet/switch come loose and "shift" I'd also like to say (since EVERYONE is entitled to my opinion.. LOL) I think F/L -ers spin faster since in their lands (where they are the rule, not the exceptions and 220 volts is regular voltage) the dryers are so slow. and "powerless" PS I chose "Toggleswitch" because all of you just turn me on with all this type of talk... -Toggleswitch |
Post# 63084 , Reply# 8   4/13/2005 at 11:45 (6,923 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Just some additional information about Europe, or better about the Netherlands because there is a difference with the UK I think. Overhere the circuits are 16 amps and as far as I know we don't use the 80% max. norm. That means 16 x 230 = 3680 Watts. My Miele frontloader (an older model with a bigger heating element than the modern ones) draws max. 3480 Watts. BTW, sometimes for American appliances HP is used. Isn't 1 HP about 750 Watts? |
Post# 63098 , Reply# 9   4/13/2005 at 16:19 (6,923 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Kenmore 1978- Agreed.. "T" slot on 20a 110v outlet is best to be able to use both 15a and 20a plugs. Foraloysius- Thanks.... good to know. 3,480 watts @ 115 volts is over 30amps!!! Even our heavy-duty dryer outlets would choke! I'm inclined to say you are correct about HP. Don't really know what a HP is worth in Watts. I'd say here we use HP to compare the size of electric and gasoline motors. Can anyone help me with this one? And speaking of power in the UK.. if anyone wants to hear me ramble on about RING Circuits and why UK Plugs are fused...feel free to ask! I fear i'm getting too technical for a newbie! |
Post# 63122 , Reply# 11   4/13/2005 at 20:35 (6,923 days old) by westytoploader ()   |   | |
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The 120V sockets don't have switches on them here, but does not make them any more or less dangerous than others. |
Post# 63131 , Reply# 13   4/13/2005 at 22:27 (6,923 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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In the US a std outlet ("power point" => UK) has a ground ("earth" => UK) older ones do not. Plugs and outlets are also polarized (with one prong wider than the other so that un-grounded plugs fit into the wall outlet only one way. (Hot stays hot... neutral stays neutral on those things that are connected to power via a cord and plug) In New York City the Electric Code is much stricter than (and augments/supplements) the "NEC" National Electric Code. Wires by law are metal-sheathed (as opposed to plastic sheathing with a bare copper ground conductor.) which is used as a system ground. METAL boxes are required to house switches, outlets and splices. Switches and outlets are therefore automatically grounded when they are mounted via screws into such a metal box in NYC, no separate action needed. Metal sheathed wires are required to prevent fires caused by beasties (polite way of saying rodents) biting into wires. A side benefit is that induced Electro-magnetic fields are (grounded away!!! There is controvesy that these are a health risk. By the way we MAY NOT ground to gas EVER!!! I thought I read that the UK can/should. I think UK outlets have switches for safety as was mentioned earlier...lessens chance of touching live prongs/pins on plugs. I believe the outlets in other 220V territories are recessed so that it's nearly impossible to touch a live pin when in the action of plugging or unplugging something in. For US residents think of a "clock outlet." These were normally found in the soffit above kitchen cabinets (I pray this is not a local thing and was common throughout the US.) Now how many younger people even know that wall clocks were at one time electric and corded and not battery operated? |
Post# 63160 , Reply# 16   4/14/2005 at 06:38 (6,923 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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"L.A. also allows the Ground and Neutral to be tied together (some local codes require separate Ground and Neutral). It's then connected to either a grounding rod driven into the ground, or attached to the water plumbing AND it's also carried back to the utility pole." NYC=> Neutral is grounded at the circuit breaker panel (called consumer unit=> UK) No grounding rods AT ALL. All sevices are grounded to incoming water pipes. (And now water meters which are relatively new to NYC have a jumper to ensure contiguous ground.) Service enters via METAL conduit. (never plastic conduit or plastic sheathed cable "Romex") LONG ISLAND=> Varies from village to village, but in my neck of the woods when I upgraded my main service it was required to be grounded to a water pipe AND with a grounding rod in the earth. At one time I had no W&D and was in the laundromat (IMAGINE?)The water main was being worked on and was "dug out." The workers removed the grounding clamp to the electical system. WOW!! All the flouresecent lights were strobing and shimmering. There was one dryer running. When I went to put my clothes in another one and tried to start it the whole place went dim and the other dryer slowed down to the point it nearly stopped. I had no idea at the time grounding is essential I once peeked behind the back of a (tall) commerical dryer --to see how they work, of course-- [The kind with the burner on top and the filter in a compartment on the bottom] and it said "Approved for use in NYC by ....." and "Approved for use in LA by ......" so it looks like those two cities have perhaps the most stringent codes, electrical and otherwise. |
Post# 63269 , Reply# 18   4/15/2005 at 03:02 (6,922 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 63395 , Reply# 23   4/16/2005 at 22:23 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()   |   | |
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Used in France, Belgium and a couple of eastern european countries CEE 7/5 Works with the standard european grounded plug, so no incompatablilty issues. |
Post# 63397 , Reply# 24   4/16/2005 at 22:32 (6,920 days old) by Mrx ()   |   | |
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And finally, my last bit of international electrical systems education! The UK fused plug (this is where the fuse goes in) |
Post# 63404 , Reply# 26   4/16/2005 at 23:38 (6,920 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 63445 , Reply# 29   4/17/2005 at 12:04 (6,919 days old) by Mrx ()   |   | |
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Are you sure that guy was an electrician?! |
Post# 63448 , Reply# 31   4/17/2005 at 12:45 (6,919 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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That's almost as stupid as putting a penny behind a plug-type ("edison"?)fuse to prevent it from blowing. No protection to wires. For our international friends, that copper coin (penny) allows the side contacts to be fed electricity from the back contact, and the threaded-in fuse (has threads in like an American light-bulb) just then holds the penny in place. MAJOR no-no!!! I think these are similar to "German-style" plug fuses mentioned earlier by another member. |
Post# 63526 , Reply# 36   4/17/2005 at 23:11 (6,919 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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WOW. AN AMAZING FRENCH Electrical PANEL. Anyone else have day /night rates ("Peak"/"Off-peak)? Many areas (I have seen these in FL, MA and NY states) have electronic devices that turn off electric water heaters, the central air-conditioner and/or the pool filter. In exchange for the intrusion and inconvenience the power company grants the particular consumer a discount. I think US power rates are highest in HAWAII, then Long Island, then NYC. Anyone have a site or know about this? Last I recall NYC was $0.12 (12 cents) per KwH (Before taxes) |
Post# 63529 , Reply# 37   4/18/2005 at 01:13 (6,919 days old) by kenmore1978 ()   |   | |
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try this link CLICK HERE TO GO TO kenmore1978's LINK |
Post# 63531 , Reply# 38   4/18/2005 at 01:20 (6,919 days old) by kenmore1978 ()   |   | |
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NY is high, but HI blows it away! |
Post# 63640 , Reply# 42   4/19/2005 at 05:57 (6,918 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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yes....yes.... plug-style threaded edison screw-base fuses went up to 30 amps... above that cartridge fuses were used. yes..the bakelight blocks were like "caddys" or "beds" for the fuses making them easy-to-change. These were used for electric stoves and protecting main service in residences, as well as larger commerical/industrial loads. |
Post# 63642 , Reply# 43   4/19/2005 at 05:59 (6,918 days old) by Toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 63779 , Reply# 46   4/20/2005 at 16:38 (6,916 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Kenmore1978: "...and removed the insulating disc in the sockets so the neutral side of the lines were uninterrupted)" What is an insulating disc? Sounds like an apt I had. Same deal==> 30a 110v, 2 fuses. I cheated a little and put in 20a and a 15a. Same as above, I had the screw-in breakers. (That replace plug fuses.) When everyone was using their A/C the main fuses in the basement would blow due to the heat generated from the NEIGHBORING fuse and in the panels, generally...even when WAY under limit in usage. And naturally, the landlord would be away on vacation (holiday) when this happened and we'd be out of power for 2 days. JOY JOY JOY! I put up with this non-sense for years, until I got sneaky and plugged the ref. and the A/C as well as the TV and a lamp into a hallway outlet, metered to the landlord. LOL (but only on such "special" occasions!!!) Amazing how much quicker the power was restored when HIS (hallway) fuses started to blow and the hallways were partially dark. LOL Luckily, I found (or should I say paid dearly for) a new air-conditioner for the window that was 10,500 Btu/h and only took 7.5amps!! It had the highest energy-efficiency ratio around at the time of 12.0+/- ("Most" economical) The ratio = Btu/h divided by watts. (Watts = volts X amps) luckily such a "small" A/C was just barely enough to keep the place dry and from becoming a steam-bath (In NYC it's the humidity more than the heat that makes summers exremely uncomfortatble. [As a reference point for our international friends 10,000 to 12,000 Btu/hr (British thermal units) is approximately one gas burner on top of the stove set to full-flame. or enough to cool two average rooms (12 foot square or 3.6 meters square) in "my" climate. ] Those were the days. BTW ==> the rule of thumb for (electric) heating in this part of US is 10 watts per square foot (with 8 or 9 foot ceilings) and 1 watt per cubic foot for irregular ceilings (vaulted, extra-tall, sloped etc.) one watt = 3.4 Btu. 12 x 12 foot room = 144 Square feet. 144 x 10 watts = 1,440 1,440 watts * 3.4 Btu = 4,896 Btu which rounded is 5,000 Btu. 1,440 watts / 120 volts = 12 amps (80% of 15) Therefore a room heater can be plugged into a regular general-duty outlet/socket in the US, but without much more on the line!!!! Now can someone explain to me Kilo-watts as a unit of cooling capacity? Just another numbers game: for US gas-fired domestic water-heaters, storage type 30 US gallon ==> usually 30,000 Btu/Hr 40 US gallon ==>usually 40,000 Btu/h 50 US gallon ==> usually 50,000 Btu/h More Btu/h is a "better" or actually faster one, less are usually slower (BOL models) Too much said. Regards All |
Post# 63829 , Reply# 48   4/20/2005 at 21:05 (6,916 days old) by Yaktx ()   |   | |
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A few people mentioned pennies behind plug fuses. Thought I'd share my favorite thread on the subject. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Yaktx's LINK |
Post# 63881 , Reply# 50   4/21/2005 at 05:24 (6,916 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Post# 64059 , Reply# 51   4/23/2005 at 08:54 (6,913 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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To Yaktx: OMG... are people really that clue-less? Do the laws of physics not apply in their homes? I know a retired fire inspector who married and moved into his wife's co-op apartment which she had owned before they met. She had her kitchen re-done and the contractor hired an electrician..... and as you may know co-ops are really anal-retentive about getting and approving licensed people. So everyone assumed this wire-worker was half-way awake. Apparently not. The electrician put the washing machine, the dishwasher and a counter-top outlet on one line. Needless to say it is the only outlet on the counter and used for the coffee-maker and the toaster simultaneously. I pointed out my objections to the husband and wife team and he (the retired fire-inspector) agreed with me. The problem was "resolved" by them staggering the load. [I am a former accountant now into real-estate and you are a fire-inspector I had to tell YOU there was a problem????] Me? I would have had at least four lines for that mess, with an appliance-duty quad on the counter. A quad is two adjacent duplex outlets (2 x 2 = 4) on two separate lines. A three wire cable is split into two circuits. Scarier even is that the circuit breaker panel is right above the wall that all these loads/appliances share and that the attic (soffit ==> UK) above is open. Anyone could have easily and quickly fished throught the needed cables before, duing or after the renovation. SIGH-- I just give up sometimes. |
Post# 64125 , Reply# 52   4/24/2005 at 09:08 (6,912 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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"The notoriously tamper-prone North American plug fuse, which shares the same thread as our light bulbs" An electrican came to my parents' house years ago to upgrade some service. The cicruit handling the light above his head was de-energized. He simply stuck a jumper wire from the neutral bus to the one side of the fuse-holding socket. The other side of the fuse-holder, of course, was already connected to the hot/live bus... and proceeded to screw in a standard light bulb. So simple and so obvious when pointed out; but not a conclusion one would necessarily have come to on one's own. |
Post# 64189 , Reply# 54   4/25/2005 at 05:15 (6,912 days old) by kenmore1978 ()   |   | |
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Interesting, the only place you generally see bayonet base bulbs here is where vibration is a problem, i.e. cars, appliances like washers, dishwashers, sewing machines. |
Post# 64225 , Reply# 56   4/25/2005 at 11:36 (6,911 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 64261 , Reply# 58   4/25/2005 at 19:03 (6,911 days old) by Stainfighter (Columbia, SC)   |   | |
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Post# 64336 , Reply# 61   4/26/2005 at 06:17 (6,911 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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"Now can someone explain to me Kilo-watts as a unit of cooling capacity? " MrX? ALOS: And please excuse my ignorance, I am a prooduct of my zip (postal) code. LOL If I wanted to bring a water-hog US washer (aside from the electrical issues) to metric system lands, would the threads on the water intake valve be the same size as is used there? Here is why I ask. Lighbulbs for use in the US that are imported don't fit well. They go in sorta OK, but usually break while being removed (unscrewed) that .5mm probably makes all the difference. I am assuming that the translation of a US? /Imperial?/ English system? size in inches into metrics is the minor malfuntion? |
Post# 64347 , Reply# 63   4/26/2005 at 07:37 (6,911 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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Gotcha, thank you. I was more intrigued by places outside the US (probably all counties.. LOL) that do not use or recognize BTU/h but rate the capacity (as well as the draw/load) in kilo-watts. I think there is sometimes a spread between the two (load and capacity Kilo-watts) which may be "THEIR" way of determining efficiency. International friends..What say you? |
Post# 64473 , Reply# 66   4/27/2005 at 07:02 (6,910 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY)   |   | |
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A per my usual style a novel ensues: A/C off-cycle humidity: Yes, as the evaporator coil warms up during the comrpessor "off" cycle the air also warms up increasing its capacity to hold moisture. Therefore any remaining moisture on that coil (that has not yet fallen to the condensate pan)get picked up by the air. So I agree with you... the air does get more humid. Try using the "power-saver" switch such that the fan cycles with the compressor. (Works best in hot climates.) In some areas like mine we tend not to use it because as the outside air cools at night and the house is still hot, without the fan running constantly to pull indoor air over the thermostat the unit would not sufficiently cool the room. Now with remote controls as soon as one actually monitors the room temperature, this may all change. Often cooling systems/units here are oversized and won't properly dehumidify. Solution: get a dehumidifier, or a small A/C to run constantly as a supplement which will serve to dehumidify. In my ideal world, if home refrigerator were by an outside wall, I'd put a powerful a/c over it. To be used when cooking, when the house is full of people, for fast cooling when getting home from work, etc. This would allow for the main cooling unit/system to be properly (or slightly under-) sized. of course a supplemental unit is not limited to the kitchen. BTU's I figured this was a dinosaur of a unit. One pound of water? What a pain that is!!!! A US gallon weighs 7.7 US pounds. I believe 8.0 pounds is used (rouned off?) (maybe an imperial gallon is 8.0 lbs (pounds)? gallon= 4 quarts 16 cups quart = 2 pints (4cups) (comparable to a litre) pint = 2 cups cup= 8.0 fluid ounces A cup = 8 fluid ounces because 8lbs/16 cups = 1/2 pound or 8 oz per cup. Looks like fluid measure and sold (weight) measure are inter-linked. For solid/weight measure there are 16 ounces per pound. OK, SIGH maybe the metric system does have SOME advantages. LOL So how many Kw of cooling capacity (not power draw) would be needed for an average bedroom ? |