Thread Number: 20470
roto rack
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Post# 325433   1/19/2009 at 22:25 (5,546 days old) by soberleaf ()        

i would love to find one of those old D&M design dishwashers with the round top rack, no matter what brand it turns out to be or even if it runs or not! I would pay a very good price and have it shipped to me. if anyone has one they wish to part with or knows of any still out there please let me know!!

thanks

pete





Post# 325434 , Reply# 1   1/19/2009 at 22:37 (5,546 days old) by everythingold (Grand Rapids, Michigan)        

everythingold's profile picture
I can get this.

Post# 325457 , Reply# 2   1/20/2009 at 00:17 (5,546 days old) by everythingold (Grand Rapids, Michigan)        

everythingold's profile picture
and

Post# 325484 , Reply# 3   1/20/2009 at 06:49 (5,546 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        

I was thinking might be time for one of the mfr's to try another impleller design, might work better than a pump system. since they wash with so Little water. What do you guys/gals think?

Post# 325506 , Reply# 4   1/20/2009 at 09:36 (5,546 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Unfiltered water, and uneven water distribution may be setbacks.

Post# 325507 , Reply# 5   1/20/2009 at 09:45 (5,546 days old) by everythingold (Grand Rapids, Michigan)        

everythingold's profile picture
I'm told these are not the greatstest washers. You need to rinse the dishes well to avoid particles on them. On the other hand, the spinning roto rack is really cool. I guess we'll never know if the impellor was a good idea, like the top loading dishwasher, the idea appears extinct. matt

Post# 325555 , Reply# 6   1/20/2009 at 12:32 (5,546 days old) by turquoisedude (.)        
American Kitchens ....

turquoisedude's profile picture
had a roto-rack style top rack in their dishwashers, didn't they? I remember seeing an ad for one and that's what it looked like.
The folks who lived across the street from me where I grew up had an early to mid 60's LK with a roto-rack. Very cool concept!


Post# 325583 , Reply# 7   1/20/2009 at 14:26 (5,546 days old) by llmaytag (Southern California)        
Question

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Funny to think that an impeller which sprays water in all directions at once can do as good a job with less water than a pump and wash arm that can concentrate jets that cover the wash area evenly. Anyway, how does an impeller machine get the rack to rotate, or is the rotation just for loading and unloading?

Post# 325587 , Reply# 8   1/20/2009 at 14:37 (5,546 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Dishes loaded in a circular pattern (lower rack ) in these types of machiens speaks volumes, no?

Post# 325595 , Reply# 9   1/20/2009 at 15:22 (5,546 days old) by turquoisedude (.)        

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I gotta weigh in the impeller wash debate - I have been using a 1958 GE Mobile Maid with an impeller and the "new" 1956 kitchen has a dishwasher with an impeller and I haven't any serious complaints about performance of either of these units. I do notice some particles accumulating on the tops of glasses or cups with dip, but that can still happen with a spray arm machine, too. I honestly think that good, hot water is the key to good performance in these machines.

The awkward part of the impeller machine is that the dishes really do have to be racked the right way. I will admit is a pain to have to put bowls or pans in the upper rack only, but I have found ways to sneak some items into the corners of the lower rack and they will wash successfully.
I guess a round lower rack impeller machine is just too familiar for me - the dishwasher we had when I was a brat was like that!

Oh and shhhh! don't tell hubby, but I am planning on bringing the 1978 Kenmore front-loader out of exile to be the 'backup' dishwasher in the new kitchen!!! Hell, I gotta have something to take care of the pots and pans...


Post# 325615 , Reply# 10   1/20/2009 at 16:48 (5,546 days old) by gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

I lived in an apartment years ago in Atlanta that had an impeller machine with an interior just like the one in the photo's.It was an off-brand like American Kitchens or something like that. Typical impeller-type (lack of) water filtration issues.
If you opened the door during the cycle that roto-rack was spinning so fast it would sling water across the room!


Post# 325651 , Reply# 11   1/20/2009 at 19:18 (5,546 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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My only experience with an impeller machine was back in the most earliest days of disco when I was living with husband #1 we bought a 2nd hand machine out of the newspaper. It was an Eatons store brand Viking top loader with an impeller. Got it home, plugged it in, sparks flew and out the door it went :( Who knew back then they'd be collectible someday I sure didn't. I was more into my platform shoes and I kept them,, here they are and they still fit LOL


Post# 325655 , Reply# 12   1/20/2009 at 19:38 (5,546 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ)        
Impellers

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In the Modern Maid above, the cant of the dishes in the bottom rack naturally applied a circular water pattern when the water deflected off of them, thus sending water up to and spinning the rack.

I can weigh-in on the impeller/water-usage debate. The 1960 Frigidaire (sourced from D&M) impeller top-loader I have (thanks Robert > Ben ;-) ) uses very little water, if you don't count the purges to heat the water/tank and flush particulates. (It also does what it does with one long wash and two slam-bam-no-kiss-even-afterwards rinses, for a cycle time of like 22 minutes.) So I can understand the idea.

And I will say that, in my experience, the stainless-steel GE impeller machines wash circles around the Bakelite impeller machines and have way better racking. If you get one with the PowerShower on top, things just get better.

That said...

Several factors would affect why this would not be a good idea today:

1.) The shrapnel effect. Impeller machines wash with a lot of force but not concentrated directionality. They break glasses and flip things over depending on how items in the bottom rack direct the water, and anything that gets down into the impeller gets sling-shotted around in the dishwasher with incredible speed and force, possibly damaging the impeller and other dishwasher contents. No fun. Many a screen and guard was put in place to prevent this, and the stainless-steel impeller mostly protects itself, but it's not fun to encounter it. One of the nuts off a screw on the rack of my Hotpoint came loose in the tank and made it into the water stream when we were testing it, and you'd have thought it was World War III. Compare this knowledge with the interest that the average home user has with interacting with their appliances, and tell me that it'd go over well :-)

2.) No filtration. Even if you added a passive/secondary filtration system, it doesn't lend itself well to this.

3.) Perfect loading means possibly acceptable results. Because plates in the bottom rack (and preferably flattish, not deep-cupped plates, because that affects water angle) basically create the wash environment for the items above, things like partial loads and/or placing bowls down there dramatically change the wash pattern (I'll take vids of the 1960 and show you what I mean); in fact, bowls tend to accept too much force, misdirect the water, and eventually get thrown to the corners of the tank over the course of the cycle (see broken-glass issues mentioned above). If you don't have a full load of plates to direct the water upward, then the water cannot go straight up to the top rack, and basically, all the water surges up the sides of the machine and never even hits the top. I find this aggravating and I'm an appliance fiend--again, compare this with your average, disinterested home user (or even my ex, who is continually confounded by the comparatively forgiving KDS-15), and tell me this will fly. In fact, the only reason I get passable results with the Frigidaire impeller machine is that the Plexiglas top Robert fashioned lets me monitor what's getting water and what isn't, and allows me to adjust the load accordingly. If I had the steel top back on it, I'd be forever pissed :-).

4.) Large, funky, or deep items--there's nowhere they can really go, and even the forcefulness of the impeller does not create a water stream that can go big distances. Deep tumblers in the top rack seldom get clean, unless they're right over a plate that sends the water all the way up to them. And people are used these days to dishwashers that allow you to stick a stock pot in the top rack. They're also used to machines that remove burned-on food, and I've never had a load get clean in that 1960 that didn't get pre-washed by hand first (which is probably a function of the short cycle time, but still--it reminds me of my 1975 GE dishwasher, which could seemingly even get clean dishes dirty after all was said and done).

I think that wash-arm systems--although, increasingly, ones that do the job without running them all at once--are just the way to go when you have little water volume and the need for extreme loading flexibility.

Oh yeah, and one more thing:

5.) Noise. Anyone want to raise their hand and tell us about the impeller machine they couldn't hear running? :-D Roger's Mobile Maid is so vicious that it scoots around the kitchen while it's washing, and we couldn't hold a conversation in the living room when it was running in the kitchen. The Frigidaire D&M I have is quieter, especially when fully loaded, but makes about as much noise as the KDS-15, which likewise necessitates turning up the volume on the TV in the living room. If water striking the tank makes noise, then having a machine design that basically operates on a basis of doing that constantly is tough to engineer around.

Maybe it'll be GE's next BOL design, though--it could hardly be worse than the turbine pump with no filtration, and with a long enough cycle and the Calrod on all the time, it might just work! :-D


Post# 325656 , Reply# 13   1/20/2009 at 19:41 (5,545 days old) by historyman (Pittsburgh, PA/Aiken, SC)        
impeller machine with a filter?

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I'm wondering if it would be that hard to have an impeller machine that filters the water? Sort of like a filter flo where there's always enough water to wash the dishes but at the same time it's actively being pumped through a filter. Think this would work or am I totally wrong?

Post# 325657 , Reply# 14   1/20/2009 at 19:44 (5,545 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ)        
Probably, but you'd have to be clever

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Remember that the whole volume of water is being sent back up into play all the time--there is not much hanging-around at the bottom of the tank (when I vid the Frigidaire, you'll see the total volume when I stop it).

Like Bill Cosby saying that his job as a father was to kick the kids back into play when they were being punished by their mother, the impeller does the same thing.

To filter such a small volume of water that is in almost constant motion (and not hanging around a sump) would be tough, but I find that leaving a tea strainer in the top rack does nicely ;-)


Post# 325744 , Reply# 15   1/21/2009 at 07:35 (5,545 days old) by turquoisedude (.)        
Didn't GE have an SU-series...

turquoisedude's profile picture
pull-out top-loader with the "filter-flo" system?? I am sure I have seen a photo of one like this on the board before. I am guessing it must have been mid-60's before they dropped the impeller wash systems completely.
It would be interesting to see how that worked!


Post# 325937 , Reply# 16   1/21/2009 at 18:41 (5,545 days old) by gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

Combo52 has a Lady 'Kenmo (looks like the last year) impeller type WITH a filter! It looks pretty lame, but hey, at least they tried!

As usual Nate is 'killin me----I love the GE that gets clean dishes dirty----I've used those before! Don't forget their BOL builders-grade unit that mimicks the sound of their builders-grade disposall! POS man.

I am thinking the new automotive-type sound proofing material would really help. It is thin, comes in sheets and adheres to whatevr surface you want to stick it on. I've seen it used on, and heard how it affects the new Speed Queen washers and dryers-----and it makes them really quiet.


Post# 325946 , Reply# 17   1/21/2009 at 19:29 (5,545 days old) by tagfan75 ()        

Pete: I sent you an email...

Matt


Post# 326025 , Reply# 18   1/22/2009 at 04:02 (5,544 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        
Thanks ROTO204

I will look fwd to your video's, i did not realize the issues you described with the impeller machine and have never seen one work in person. You educated me on the topic, and i thank YOU. alr2903.


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