Thread Number: 20939
Washing Machine Fires 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 331684   2/22/2009 at 10:27 (5,534 days old) by youtubearecool ()        

Well this is scary stuff. That ones washing machine can caught fire just like that. I have found some photos on the internet and made a video of it.

Never leave home with machine on.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO youtubearecool's LINK



Post# 331685 , Reply# 1   2/22/2009 at 10:28 (5,534 days old) by youtubearecool ()        

Some more Pics

Electrolux. Motor caught fire.

Post# 331686 , Reply# 2   2/22/2009 at 10:32 (5,534 days old) by youtubearecool ()        

Another pic of an Electrolux. This time it was an WH 280. The machine had leaked water quite awhile before the fire.

Post# 331701 , Reply# 3   2/22/2009 at 11:35 (5,534 days old) by animasinsulinpu ()        
WOW!!!

 I would never leave home or go to sleep with the washer or DW on. What fun is that? Thanks for the pic and video....Bill in Az,USA.....

Post# 331731 , Reply# 4   2/22/2009 at 14:55 (5,534 days old) by sudsman ()        
Notice where the most of the damages is in most of the pics

 The computer area. Not a one was a conventional washer.Pooy to the new modern crap!

Post# 331939 , Reply# 5   2/23/2009 at 14:51 (5,533 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Proving once again that a wall-switch controlling power outlets(power-points) is a fabulous idea!

IIRC new code requres a wall-switch to shut-off your DW. Not sure if that includes plug-and (flex) cord connected units. Plug-and-cord connected dishwashers was at one time not allowed in NYC' I believe this has changed.

Dear international friends; many dishwashers here are hard- wired (no plug and socket) where the cable from in the wall goes rignt into the unit.

I have had to inspect buildings after a fire and I have to say that second photographs is eerily accurate. I can practically smell it.

Post# 331948 , Reply# 6   2/23/2009 at 15:20 (5,533 days old) by rolls_rapide (.)        
I noticed that....

 ...a good few of the machines in the Youtube slideshow were Electrolux or Zanussi machines! They're supposed to be a little bit more reliable than some makes.

I wonder if there were any washer-driers in that lot?

Puts one off running the machines unattended!

Post# 331964 , Reply# 7   2/23/2009 at 16:47 (5,533 days old) by bertrum ()        
hardwired?

 hi Toggleswitch2,
Surely if an appliance is hard wired it will still have its own fuse unique to that appliance?

Unless you are saying in the US you have appliances that are directly wired to the main fuse box?, I have never seen this in UK domestic appliances.

Post# 331987 , Reply# 8   2/23/2009 at 20:24 (5,533 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Bertrum...

 ronhic's profile picture
...It happened (or used to) here too.

My parents hotplates and oven are wired to a seperate fuse in the main fuse box just as the lights, power points and hot water service are...

The main difference though is that the our power points are switched (as in the UK), but until recently, there was no requirement for separate switching for ovens/hot water services though there are exceptions....

Some people used to put a switch in for the hot water service so they could control when it heated etc....but this was not a requirement....we have one by default, my parents don't.

However, we had our kitchen redone in 2006 and the oven/hotplates have an isolation switch on the wall near the cooker just as they do in the UK.

Another thing to remember is that the UK and parts of the world that use the UK power point system, such as Hong Kong, have fuses in the plugs. The vast majority of countrys do not but rely on the main fuse box for protection.

As an example, my parents house has the following main fuses

2x lights
2x power points
Stove
oven
hot water service

...as well as a main on/off switch.

Until 2004, they had simple wired fuses that if one blew, you took the fuse out, replaced the wire with some of appropriate rating and plugged in. They have since changed their fuse box to a circuit breaker system. The majority of houses in Australia probably still have simple, wired fuses....

Post# 331990 , Reply# 9   2/23/2009 at 20:35 (5,533 days old) by mrx ()        

Local fusing in the UK isn't actually primarily there to be an extra safety device.

Final ring circuits used in the UK to feed outlets are rated at 32amps. The fuse in the plug of an appliance (rated 13amps max) or, if the appliance is hardwired, a fused connection unit, are only required because the appliance's cable would not be able to withstand a 32A fault.

It's normal practice in most European wiring regulations to have appliances connected either via a plug-and-socket, or via a local isolating switch.

Outside of the UK, appliances are usually sitting on 16 or 20amp circuits (15 amp in the US) and do not actually require local fusing. However, it is pretty important to be able to disconnect them without having to switch a breaker off! So an isolating switch is certainly a good idea!

That being said, it's not unusual in European kitchens (including the UK and Ireland) to have dishwashers, washing machines, dryers etc plugged into outlets that are hidden away at the back of near-by cupboards. While they're accessible, they would not be very easy to reach in a fire situation.

There are also plenty of kitchens where the dishwasher is plugged into an outlet on the wall directly behind it that is totally inaccessible. Either in compliance with old regulations, or a DIY, or not-very-well-done, kitchen installation.

So, in reality, many dishwashers over here would not be any easier to disconnect than a US hardwired machine. You would still have to throw a breaker in a lot of cases!!

Modern kitchen installations here require an isolating switch for dishwashers (And any other integrated appliances) located on the wall above them. Or, an accessible plug and socket.

When we installed our integrated dishwasher, the electrician used a 15A non-fused round-pin plug behind the machine plugged into an outlet that is connected to a fused, switched spur above the machine on the wall. His logic was that if the fuse went in the plug behind the machine, we would have to remove the entire appliance to get access to it. So, he avoided using a standard plug. The level of protection is exactly the same as the fuse is in the spur unit.

Cooking appliances (Ovens and hobs) have always had to have 32A or 45A double-poll isolating switches near by.


Here's a switched spur unit : (For appliances up to 13amp @ 230V)

Holds a standard UK/Ireland fuse (as found in all of our plugs)

Post# 332018 , Reply# 10   2/23/2009 at 22:08 (5,533 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

yes that is what I am saying!

Our "fittted"/installed dishwashers are run on a separate 110v 20a appliance circuit and are directly wired-in to the cable that runs to the circuit-protection (fuse) box.The only way to turn off the power was to turn off the circuit breaker or remove the fuse.

Many of our appliances are on individual circuits in that on 110v, the wattage we can shoot through a wire of a certain ampacity (amp capacity) is of course half of what can be shot through the same wire using 220v.

Interestingly, the National Electric Code states that permanently installed electric resistance heaters (say baseboard style or unit heaters in the wall) shall have TWO means of diisconnecting them from the power source. One of those shall be in the same room as the heater. This necessitates thermostats, and also two-pole (turn off BOTH hot legs) verisons with a positve "OFF" postion/setting. Logically one does not want a full "OFF" postion on a heating only thermnostst to prevent accidental freezing of pipes and such. And indeed the thermostats of heating-only system don't have an "OFF" postion on their thermostats for just that reason; freeze protection. But these methods ensure compliance with code.

Post# 332059 , Reply# 11   2/24/2009 at 06:42 (5,532 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Meaning gas or oil fired systems that don't have cooling usually don't have an "OFF" position on the thermostst.

Electric heaters in each room do.

Post# 332076 , Reply# 12   2/24/2009 at 12:11 (5,532 days old) by bertrum ()        

thanks toggleswitch2, didn't know that was the case across the pond.

Intersting what you said 'mrz' about your electrician "His logic was that if the fuse went in the plug behind the machine, we would have to remove the entire appliance to get access to it. So, he avoided using a standard plug".

I have removed litterally thousands of integrated appliances and I have never understood the reason for hard wiring an appliance in, in fact I still don't understand the logic as if an appliance trips a fuse 99% of the time it will need to come out anyway!.

In my opinion its just time/ money saving for electricians to put in a hardwirwed spur rather than a proper plug,(it also makes it a pain in the neck when it comes to removing hardwired appliances).

Post# 332103 , Reply# 13   2/24/2009 at 15:29 (5,532 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

~I have never understood the reason for hard wiring an appliance.

Wehn an appliance is otherise tethered to a property, say an electric hot water heater via the pipes or a dishwasher via pipes, or even a stationary a wall-oven and a cooktop, the logic was a plug-and-cord does not "add" to the portability.

Of course today we see it as more of a safety feature!

Let us not forget that in the early days of electricty in this country the plug-and-socket configuraton was not standard and agreed-upon for high amperage-draw appliances So you couln't even if you wanted to.

Didn't we just see this situation in a small Eastern European country lately? IIRC the washer was hard-wired in due to a lack of a standardized avaialbel high amperage power-outlet in that region.

Post# 332149 , Reply# 14   2/24/2009 at 21:08 (5,532 days old) by revvinkevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)        
Washing machine fires!

 revvinkevin's profile picture
This is the 2nd time I have seen a thread about washing machines which spontaneously combust..... has anyone else besides me noticed they all of these "washing machine fires" are in the smaller 220V Euro sized washers???

Post# 332201 , Reply# 15   2/25/2009 at 06:11 (5,531 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Well in all fairness the orginal poster is from a place where those are the norm and those machines are actually the world majority. More of them means more can have problems, even if the ratio of leaking/sparky ones (to total units) is actually very low.

220v as opposed to 110v may help spice-up the situation.

IIRC One may NOT use a GFI (residual current detector) with a washer- they'd (nearly) ALWAYS "pop" into "safety".

Post# 332311 , Reply# 16   2/25/2009 at 15:59 (5,531 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi Steve,

I disagree with your GFI, or as we call them RCD statement. Everything in our house other than Stove and Water heater are on RCD Circuit breakers. It's the law here now that all rental properties and new builds must be fully RCD Protected.

I have no issues with any appliance unless it's faulty, the two or three times we've had a trip in the last 6 years, its been a washer I've collected off the side of the road, or a circuit overload.

I see on Garden Web a fear of putting RCD's on circuits such as Fridges, Garbage Disposals, Dishwashers, Washers etc, either the RCD's you have in the US dont work as well, or its more of an Urban Legend.

In relation to Voltage vs Amperage, I would've thought there is a greater potential for fires at 110v as the amperage and therefore heat needs to be double to achieve the same amount of work? Isnt that why the US derates the maximum wattage on a circuit? Here we can run 4800watts on a 20amp plug, my understanding in the US that it'd need to be 30amps even at 220v. Our standard appliance plugs are rated at 10amps 2400watts whereas isnt the US 15amps and 1500watts, or 2000 watts at 20amps? The 240v world never seems to need to de-rate like the 110v world does.

Just another perspective.

Cheers,

Nathan

Post# 332317 , Reply# 17   2/25/2009 at 16:26 (5,531 days old) by rolls_rapide (.)        
GFI (residual current detector) with a washer

 The UK has residual current devices (RCDs) that continuously monitor the 13amp sockets. This is in addition to miniature circuit breakers (MCBs) for each circuit. We have no problem with a properly internally insulated and earthed washing machine.

However, should the machine develop a leakage of current to earth, the RCD will be the first to detect it and thus give an indication of a serious fault in the machine.

Last Summer, my parents cottage had an early morning overhead thunderstorm. A close-by lightening strike travelled down the phone line, destroyed the phone and exited via the 13Amp power cord and plug, into the ring mains.

The consumer unit RCD that monitors the 13Amp sockets detected this and flipped the switch. The MCB also kicked in, disconnecting the kitchen sockets, lounge sockets and bedroom sockets. The lighting circuits remained untouched and fully operational.

Post# 332320 , Reply# 18   2/25/2009 at 17:16 (5,531 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Sorry all I did not intend to imply or infer that "mine is better/safer than yours". It is just interesting to me the way so many countries are well advanced of us here and the degree of safety methods and procedures needed on 220v that are well, "forerign" to us.

~I see on Garden Web a fear of putting RCD's on circuits such as Fridges, Garbage Disposals, Dishwashers, Washers etc, either the RCD's you have in the US don't work as well, or its more of an Urban Legend.

Don't know if Garden Web is an Aussie site or a US site. But wouldn't frequent "annoyance trips" mean they work better? *LOL*

1- AFAIK I stand by my statments that RCDs/GFI's may not be used (allowed) IN THE USA for refrigerators, freezers and laundry equipment. Interestingly one-piece self-contained window and wall-mounted air-conditoioners have one.

~Here we can run 4,800 watts on a 20 amp plug.
That makes sense based on your design voltage of 240v.

~My understanding in the US that it'd need to be 30 amps even at 220v.

Yes because at 220v, 4,800 watts is 21.8 amps.


~Our standard appliance plugs are rated at 10 amps 2,400 watts whereas isn't the US 15 amps and 1500 watts, or 2,000 watts at 20amps?

Probably not because that infers a voltage of 100v.
On 120v, 15a wire'/accessories can carry 1,800 watts and 20a wire can carry 2,400 watts.

Code however, allows for a load of 80% DESIGN amperage max per circuit. (obviously more can be carreid until the amperage limit is reached). Normally, instructions for devices over 12a request a 20a line. (15a @ 80% = 12a). Strangely air-condioners of 7.5a or over request a DEDICATED 15a circuit, but this may be related to high starting-amp draw and the dimming of lights (quick voltage dips) on that circuit.

~The 240v world never seems to need to de-rated like the 110v world does.

Not sure what this means, or is itended to mean. Here with limited wattages able to flow through wires of a certain gauge/thickness (due to the voltage we use), we can't plug in two heavy-draw (read: heating) appliances at the same time on the same line. (hair- dryer and space-heater, or coffee-maker and toaster, etc. This is especially true of 15a general lighting circuits as opposed to 20a appliance lines.

I'm sere now that the officeal voltage in Europe and Australia is 230v (down from 240v and up from 220v) to be techincally in spec and within allowable tolerance of each other. Allowable wattages for a given amperage may change.
It is interesting to note that the offical voltages may have changed on paper; The actual existing coltages probably has not and will not.

My comment about 220v spicng things up in terms of a fire, was from the perspective of the current at a higher voltage beign able to spark agcross a wider gap, and much more wattage/power can flow before a breker limits the over-current situation. Remeber I am blisfully un awrefd of RCDs /GFIs use dwith laundry equipment, so my mentality was limited to that scenario!

Again please don't take offense. We here fear 220v. We are just not used to it.

a Cypriot electrican now living and working here said to a friend of mine "There is no difference between 220v and 110v ecxcept if you make a mistake with 110v you may live to repeat it"

I think we all sort of agreed that 220v at 60hz is best, so we are all half-right and half-wrong!



Post# 332321 , Reply# 19   2/25/2009 at 17:19 (5,531 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Now out of curiosity I need to look at wattages of 220v appliances to see what they use.

IRONS
COFFEE-MAKERS
TOASTERS
VACUUM CLEANERS
PLUG-IN COOKING ACCESSORIES

In my ridiculous opinion theses tend to hover around 1,500 watts. But must check. What about "over there" in 220v lands?


Post# 332323 , Reply# 20   2/25/2009 at 17:54 (5,531 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hey Steve,

Wasnt meaning to sound confrontational, just disagreeing. Do the US GFI's annoyance trip that often?

Garden Web or That Home Site is a US site, that covers off Laundry, electrical etc. ths.gardenweb.com

Over here, Kettles, Toasters, Irons, Dishwashers, Electric Frying pans, FL Washers all exist at around 1800 - 2400watts.

I dont have a current coffee maker, those from the 60s and 70's were all around 700watts.

Our Miele Vac is 2400watts, most would be no lower than 1200 watts these days.

You're right the voltage has supposedly changed on paper here, but not in reality, its still 240v or so.

I'm bemused reading about the need for AFCI's on 110, it is a foreign concept here. With the higher voltage the problem of arcing, slowly causing a fire doesnt seem to happen. I guess rather than creating a spark, the extra voltage causes enough of a short that the Circuit breaker will trip as soon as it happens.


It was where you cited the 80% rule that I was talking about de-rating. Usually here, non GPO's are single outlet circuits for 15 and 20amps, so maybe that is why we dont de-rate. There are very few portable appliances here that are more than 10 amps.

Not intending to be a pissing match, just bemused by the fear of 240 and RCD's. My biggests fear in the US is of the Zip cord powering things like Irons etc. That sort of cable has been illegal here since the late 90's.

Cheers

Nathan

Post# 332326 , Reply# 21   2/25/2009 at 19:22 (5,531 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

:-0)


Proving once again that "We are all our postal (ZIP) code"
and come to beliove that which we are accostomed to is "the norm".

And as for another useless tid-bit of information I just learned that ZIP code is the name given to postal codes.


1- In that it implies quick movement.
2- Short for "Zoning Imprevement Program".




Thanks for the information. Must stay up-to-date to maintain Samantha's nick-name of "The Plug Queen"







Post# 332357 , Reply# 22   2/26/2009 at 02:41 (5,531 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
My ridiculous opinion theses tend to hover around 1,500 watt

 Yeah! I wanted to ask this question so badly since ages! :)

Anyway, here are some ratings from Italy :)

Microwave combination oven: 2550W (Plug 16A at 230V)
can be anything from 1150 (only micro at 800W power to 3300 big units with all the stuff)
Vacuum cleaner: 2400W (Plug 16A at 230V)
(smaller I could find in the shop yesterday is 1200W)
Hair dryer: 1200W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(again smaller was 1000W and biggest 2800W)
Bread toaster: 1500W (Plug 10A at 230V) (4 slices)
(those range from 500W to 1500W)
Washing machine: 2300W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(they start at 1850W, Indesit, to 2300W)
Dryer: have none (Plug 16A at 230V)
(usually from 2200W to 2800W)
Electric room heater: 2000W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(it seems to be a standard power and all I have seen have 2 coils for 1 or 2 Kw)
Electric grill: 2400W (Plug 16A at 230V)
(from small 1800W ones to 3,3KW)
Electric ironer: 1400W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(those vary wildly from 800W to 2800W)
Fryer: 2200W (Plug 16A at 230V)
(from 2000W to 2700W)
Dishwasher: 2200W (Hardwired to a bipolar switch)
(from 2000W to 2700W but most I've seen are around 2200W)
Anyway one has to think that in 80% ot the Italian houses the standard power is limited to 3300W or 15 amps on the 220V line (that actually, at least here, is 230V since the change from 220V in the 90s).
Also all the houses here, telling again can't hurt, must have a RCD protector (rated at 30mA max leak current) on all the lines since the 70s and on top of that a device that stops the electric flow in case of overdrawing of the line. As I recall I have never seen an installation with fuses in all my life! :)

So, now, in the USA, what would the standard wattage be?

Post# 332360 , Reply# 23   2/26/2009 at 03:25 (5,530 days old) by askomiele (Belgium Ghent)        
@dj-gabriele

 Don't know how it is in Italy, but here we must have 2 RCD protectors. One for the appliances in wet area's (washer, dishwasher, bathroom) max 300mA and above that 300mA for the whole house. Don't know if this is so in Europe, I guesse not because the Netherlands has other regulations.

Post# 332366 , Reply# 24   2/26/2009 at 04:49 (5,530 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
@Askomiele

 Are you sure that they aren't 30mA? 300mA seems a fairly high leak current to me! I tought Europe had harmonized to the same standards, AFAIK France has the same standards as here

In my very apartment we have 2 RCD near the main switch: one for illumination RCD+Switch and one RCD+Switch for all the electric sockets and appliances, all this circuitry is connected to another (main) RCD plus a overcurrent switch near the electric meter on the common electricity board in the basement.

A my parents they have a different configuration:
- each room has its own switch in the circuit box
- big services like the water boiler and heating system and wheel pump have separate switches
- both bathrooms have indipendent RCD of 10mA max leak current (remember that in Italy is common to have appliances like washing machines or room heaters along hair driers and hair straightreners in the toilets)
- all that is then connected to a main RCD (30mA ) and overcurrent device
then at ground floor, in a closed niche facing the street, there is the electricity meter.
Each room has a circuit for 16A except the kitchen that has 2, one for the electric oven.
So, even if each room could virtually draw the full 16 amps and kitchen 32 amps at any given time, the supply is limited to 6,6KW so it is at best 30 amps at 220V.

(BTW: 6,6KW of power is the max you can get in Italy with a standard electric contract!)

Post# 332367 , Reply# 25   2/26/2009 at 05:52 (5,530 days old) by mielabor ()        

My (Netherlands) RCD is 30 mA and I believe that that is the common type here.

I must say that they do like power-hungry appliances in Italy: my vacuum cleaner is 700 W, iron 750 W, water kettle 1600 W, toaster 450 W and all function quite satisfactorily.

Post# 332371 , Reply# 26   2/26/2009 at 06:53 (5,530 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

I still say most of our plug-in appliances are 1,500w or less!

Although I have seen a hair-dryer at 1,875w.....it's rare!

I'd love to have one of those Italian DeLonghi electric oil-filled 220v radiators. Ours are (only) 1,500w.

600w low
900w medium
1,500w high

But then again my new aparment doesn't HAVE 220v!

Post# 332374 , Reply# 27   2/26/2009 at 07:00 (5,530 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Come to think of it, aren't most "international" homes and buidlngs made of concrete with rebar?


Here, in the northeast, private homes are still wooden frame constrtuction.

So we need the MOST fire protection and we appear to have the least..........

Post# 332467 , Reply# 28   2/26/2009 at 16:43 (5,530 days old) by askomiele (Belgium Ghent)        
@dj-gabriele

 Okay my mistake there's one 0 to many so:
al electrical equipment in a wet area is under proctection of a 30mA RCD
the whole instalation is under proctection of a 300mA RCD
if you have extra (I call it semi-wet) equipmnet like: gardenlighting, small electric kitchen boiler (under sink model), a central heating pump, it's recommended to put them under a 30mA RCD but you don't have to...

Post# 332764 , Reply# 29   2/28/2009 at 15:40 (5,528 days old) by mrx ()        

The reason you have a 300mA RCD across the whole system is that you must be on a TT grounding system. In these systems, the power company does not provide a grounding system, so it's only local earth electrodes. The 300mA RCD is there to prevent a major grounding fault causing a fire.

The system used in most installations in Ireland and in the UK is quite similar to those in North America. It's technically called "TN-C". The power company's neutral is grounded regularly along its route back to the transformer and, at a point before the meter (in our version anyway), the building's main ground (earth) connection is bonded to the supply neutral.

This results in a very low earth-loop-impedance, which means that if there's a fault, the breakers trip reliably.

It also eliminates the need for a second RCD at 300mA.

There's no actual 'best' system, TT, TN-C, IT etc all have their advantages and disadvantages. TN-C seems to be generally the preferred approach though.

We use a 30mA RCD (GFCI) on ALL sockets (outlets), water heaters, central heating system components (pumps etc) and fixed appliances. That's been required since 1979, and was common even before it was made compulsory.

10mA RCDs are required for bathroom / shower areas.

The newest regs include a requirement for RCDs on ALL circuits likely to be encountered by a homeowner doing DIY work, so lights, outlets, fixed appliances, cooking appliances etc!

RCD protection's great, I have never had tripping that wasn't for a good reason. The most common reason was a wet iron, or a wet kettle connector!!

I also had an RCD trip when my dishwasher leaked, I'd never have known otherwise :D

Post# 332767 , Reply# 30   2/28/2009 at 15:48 (5,528 days old) by mrx ()        
As for fires...

 From what I have read (stats), there are a higher number of house fires caused by electrical wiring in the US and Canada than in Europe. Simple reason, it's nothing to do with wiring or standards, it's down to what build your house out of.

In most European houses the wiring is buried in plaster. If it does catch fire, it's not quite so likely to destroy the house.

In a US home, if a circuit overloads, it can be catastrophic due to all the wood in the structure.

In any system, unless you replace the breakers / fuses with over-rated ones, there should be no risk of overloading though.

Also, in the UK/Ireland system, there's an individual fuse in each plug, so you can't overload the outlets either. If you go beyond 13amps, the fuse in the plug melts.

So, if you overload a power strip etc, it's not likely to burn your house down.

I think at the very least there should be overload protection in ALL power strips world wide. It's a very simple precaution and they're a very common cause of fire all over the world!

Post# 333271 , Reply# 31   3/2/2009 at 18:38 (5,526 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

Mr.X Speaks...and I learn.

Thank you!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO toggleswitch2's LINK
Post# 333277 , Reply# 32   3/2/2009 at 18:56 (5,526 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        
EUREKA

 "In IT and TN-C networks, residual current devices are far less likely to detect an insulation fault. In a TN-C system, they would also be very vulnerable to unwanted triggering from contact between earth conductors of circuits on different RCDs or with real ground, thus making their use impracticable. Also, RCDs usually isolate the neutral core. Since it is unsafe to do this in a TN-C system, RCDs on TN-C should be wired to only interrupt the live conductor".

AHA-so there is a REASON why we don't have them (RCDs/ GFIs)to the extent seen elsewhere!

And I think it's impproper here to have GFIs "downstream" ftom another GFI.

Must read some more.

Uhm if other systems rely heavily on RCDs/GFI's for safety what was done before they existed? Did they exist decades earlier in commercial settings? (read: very expensive?)

uhm may I ask what a "mA" is? Is that milli-amp?


Post# 333321 , Reply# 33   3/3/2009 at 00:28 (5,526 days old) by pturo (Syracuse, New York)        

Well, it just all just scares the shit out of me, to be technical.

Post# 333329 , Reply# 34   3/3/2009 at 01:25 (5,526 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Wikipedia is so much fun.

If you read down a bit more around Regulations and Applications, the US uses TN-C-S, just like Europe and AU, so there is no reason why ELCB's, RCD's or GFI's shouldnt work for you like they do here.

mA is a Milliamp or 1/1000th of an Amp.

Earth Leakage systems have been around since the late 60's here, Choice reviewed them in 68. The house Michael grew up in had one covering GPO's only, Not lights, Stove or Hot water and it was installed in 72. It was the first time I'd ever seen one from that early. Most houses here started getting whole house protection by the late 80's, early 90's, but it wasnt until 200X that they became compulsary.

With TN-C-S that we have here, you just aimed to be lucky, if you were using single insulated appliances, Old Drills, powertools vaccums etc, you were supposed to avoid the wet, have them checked regularily and be careful. Thus the push for double insulated power tools. You'd only have a problem in most residential situations, if you were touching the sink or a tap at the same time as touching an appliance with an earth leak. Thus there was a big push here from the 70's to double insulate such items that come into contact with moisture. Anything here that is single insulated is usually high wattage and the assumption seems to be that a failure will be major rather than just a leak and so you'll burn out a fuse or trip a breaker.

The times I've been zapped by a faulty appliance on 240v, I've just been bitten, the zap is hard enough to set the alarm bells ringing, and you approach with caution. Usually ungrounding yourself before prodding anymore should prevent any harm.

My grandmother used to run a block of 4 holiday flats, she used to scrub the flip down sided toasters in the sink with Steel wool soap and water and plug them into dry. She did it for 30 years without incident, as long as she plugged them in away from the sink she never had a problem.

Post# 333344 , Reply# 35   3/3/2009 at 04:00 (5,525 days old) by mrx ()        
Earthing/Grounding systems are a LOT more complex than many

RCDs/GFCIs work perfectly well with TN systems (and TN-C and TN-C-S) and are used extensively with them.

RCDs are more common in some countries because some regulatory authorities saw their potential to save lives and introduced them on a mandatory basis.

You have to remember that in a TN system:

1) The grounded neutral provided by the power company, and the local earthing system in the house are bonded at a single point, in our system that's before the meter in a sealed connection unit. This is done by the power company. There should be no risk of contact with 'real ground' as 'real ground' should be bonded to the supply derived ground anyway, unless the system is not properly designed and implemented.

2) You create what's known as an "equipotential zone", this is where all metal work, including plumbing, is bonded to the same grounding system. It means that there is only one "ground/earth" in the building.

There's actually a hell of a lot more to grounding/earthing theory than many people realise. It's not really a case of the power running to 'earth'. In most cases, the electricity will attempt to complete the circuit back to the grounded transformer it came from via whatever path it can find through the earth. This means it will take the path of least resistance, which could be via underground metal pipes or ducts etc.

You will notice that if they're doing work on any underground pipes e.g. old metal water mains or gas mains, they always interconnect any isolated sections, just in case there is a 'stray neutral' current running through them back to a transformer.

The risk with TN systems is that if you have a major neutral fault in an area that you can end up with live metal work. However, in most systems there is an extensive system of earthing electrodes along the supply neutral (typically every 100 meters or so, as well as at every home connected in many systems). This reduces the risk of neutral problems.

The multiple earth electrode system will also generally pick up "stray neutrals" (currents flowing through the ground) and deliver them safely back to the transformer, rather than letting them run wherever the go which can cause serious issues such as live pipes, ducts, access covers on streets (As happened in NYC electrocuting dogs!)

You will find that in most countries there's a preferred system that has become the accepted norm. However, different methodologies were en vogue at different times, so you may find a mixture of TN-C, TN-C-S, and TT systems in use. Provided that they're implemented properly, they're all very safe. They were used for various combinations of cost, safety and sometimes 'just because' that's the way the system developed.

There are also "IT" systems where the transformer's isolated completely. This is used in Irish and UK bathrooms via the isolating transformer on the shaver socket, and also is commonly used in hospitals where there is a huge risk that a tiny stray current could directly come into contact with internal organs i.e. in an operating theatre situation or, in a situation where equipment is directly connected to a person e.g. cardiac equipment etc.

Some countries also require this system for gas stations (petrol stations).

Unusual arrangements can also be found in industrial situations, particularly highly explosive environments, or where sensitive electronics are being manufactured.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK
Post# 333437 , Reply# 36   3/3/2009 at 15:34 (5,525 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture
If'n you all wants to be scared. When I bought my house which is 73 years old. It had the old knob & tube (or knob and clete) wiring in it. My insurance company demanded that this be changed before we could close on the house.

They estimate that there are thousands of houses in our area, built from the 30's to the 50's that still has this wiring in it.

Scary

Post# 333797 , Reply# 37   3/5/2009 at 06:01 (5,523 days old) by mrx ()        
Not surprising your insurance company was worried!

 Looking at that wiring it's not at all surprising that the insurance company was worried.

In old 1920s/30s installations in Ireland you'll typically find cotton covered wires in black metal ducts. It looks more like plumbing than wiring.

The worst type of wiring is the rubber-insulated stuff that was around before the 1960s when PVC was introduced. The insulation material dries out and becomes very brittle and just flakes away.

The other problem we have here is some people used a type of plastic bead insulation to fill cavity walls (2 layers of bricks with a space between them that traps a layer of air, thus insulating the house). This stuff was installed by drilling holes in the walls (outside) and pumping it in.

The problem was that over a long period of time it reacted with PVC insulation on cables which may have been passing through the cavity or, through attic space. They turn into a substance that resembles plasticine or 'Play Doh' !!

In general, people need to be a LOT more careful about what they install around / near wiring and electrical fittings.

One of the most common causes of fire here in Ireland is incorrectly installed recessed halogen lighting.

Homeowners try to install these themselves, and often don't appreciate just how hot they can become if they're not adequately ventilated.

The other common one is where someone decides to put in fibre glass (or similar) insulation blankets into their attic straight over the back of recessed lighting cans!!

Post# 333882 , Reply# 38   3/5/2009 at 16:02 (5,523 days old) by rolls_rapide (.)        
Lighting

 Whatever happened to the proposed LED lights for the home, that were supposed to be super efficient and not need replacing?

Post# 333903 , Reply# 39   3/5/2009 at 17:06 (5,523 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

In New York City plastc-sheathed wire was not allowed anywhere, even in residences. until very recently. Our wiring was always metal-sheathed. This type of wire did not have a dedicated grouding /earthing consdutor. Grounding was accomplished via the sheath itself, which due ot the use of the required metal junction and outlet/swith boxes, continuity was "automatic" and assured. (But you know some moron will use a plastic box and kill the whole run of grounding)

The National Electic Code changed requirng a sepaarte grounding conductor, as one finds in plastic-sheathed wiring. NYC's wiring ordinacnes (local laws) where then trumped ans superceded by the naional requirements. So metal sheathed (BX) cable could no longer be used. NYC allowed plastic-sheathed wire in residence and in certial circumstances. WIth all the rats and creatures that like to bite wires, i am not at all amused or comforted.

Later in time BX (metal-shearhed) manufacturers simply included an insulated green grounding condutor in all their pordcution of such wire.

So sadly we now have plastic-sheathed wire. One wants to hang a hook or a spike and fears for their life! I was happier with metal-sheathed wire that did not give off a magnetic force field; it was simply "grounded away".

:-(

Post# 333980 , Reply# 40   3/6/2009 at 02:46 (5,523 days old) by mrx ()        

Our wiring seems to have required a ground wire for quite a long time. Going right back to the 1920s. We have had various designs of plugs and sockets over the years, but they've always been grounded either 'schuko' with side-contact earths or 3-pin UK-style.

In common with the UK we phased out a whole mess of different standards in the 1950s/60s and moved towards the current BS1363 system that's used today i.e. 3 rectangular pins and a fused plug.

You will not find anything else anymore, although in the 1960s and 70s it was certainly possible to find older round pin plugs and also old schuko installations in Ireland.

We've used plastic-insulated wiring for quite a long time. Conduit is only required in industrial settings, or where wiring is surface mounted or might be exposed to wear and tear. Other than that, it's has not been required for rather a long time.

The design of the wiring systems however, provided that someone does not change the circuit breakers to higher rated ones, should not allow for any internal wiring to overheat anyway. So, in general it simply should not be a fire hazard.

No circuit will supply enough power to overheat the cables in the building unless someone's hacked the protection devices.

Also, European regulations require that ALL cables are double-insulated. This applies to both wiring systems in homes/offices etc and also to appliance cords. Zip-cord style wiring is not permitted. Although it was quite commonly found on appliance cords in the 1960s and into the 70s.

If you're burying cable in plaster here, it has to be either armoured (metal ground screened) or, protected by a metal duct to protect against drills / nails etc penetrating the cable. However, it's not required that runs of cable under floors / across attics etc be protected to that level, provided they're 'out of harms way'.

Also, if you do drill through a cable, it going to trip a breaker or an RCD (GFCI) on the panel.

Post# 334075 , Reply# 41   3/6/2009 at 19:47 (5,522 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)        
Think outside the box...

 paulg's profile picture
I studied appliance fires in the past - including laundry fires. You all bring up many valid points. Here are a few more to consider...
There are a zillion reasons a washer or dryer catches fire. Electrical failure is a cause to be sure. I've even know of underwire bras to catch laundry appliances on fire.
You're noticing the trends such as front-loaders. Interestingly (but not surprisingly) the fire report discussed is from outside the USA.
Two additional causes of fires to keep in mind. I'm not making these up - the industry knows these causes.
First: Self-extinguishing plastics. The use of self-extinguishing plastic STOPS a lots of fires early in the USA. Guess what? MANY countries around the world DO NOT use self-extinguishing plastic! Once a unit manufactured with standard plastic starts on fire not much will stop it but a fireman. I believe we are safer in the USA due to widespread use of self-extinguishing plastic.
Second: Detergent. And you experts probably know where I'm going. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, detergent had ENZYMES. That detergent was very effective ... at WHAT?? Can you guess? ANSWER: Removal of oils from cotton. After enzymes were removed from detergent in USA, dryer fires went up and up. Nowadays, the USA is going more toward the European trend of using front-loaders. Good idea. However, you must use a different detergent ("high-efficiency") which (as I am told) isn't particularly good at removing oils from cotton. Oil in cotton can spontaneously combust particularly in the dryer. Guess what? Dryer fires (or washer-dryer fires) are AGAIN on the rise in the USA.
Oh yes our laundry appliances are getting more "efficient" in the USA.. but are our clothes getting CLEANER? Personally I think not.

Post# 334087 , Reply# 42   3/6/2009 at 21:14 (5,522 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Seņora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        
Again the same comments I did a few months ago:

 1) NEVER leave your machines running alone. Of course you donīt need to put a chair in front of it and watch it as the Laundry Channel
2) Electrolux always used self extinguishing plastics BUT itīs name is absolutelly wrong. The proper definition should be "FIRE RETARDANT PLASTICS". tHEY HELP a lot, BUT the plastic does not work as a fire extinguisher or fire sprinkler.
3) smoke alarm? It really helps a lot!
4) Fire sprinklers... why not? Ok itīs very expensive to install a fire sprinkler system but thereīs something clever and unexpensive everyone could do. install a T connector on the cold water fill valve or on the faucet and a fire sprinkler head on it. If a fire starts, it wonīt help too much as an expensive fire sprinkler system, but can give you precious extra seconds or even minutes to react.
5) Always keep a fire extinguisher close to the laundry room.
6) NEVER, NEVER, NEVER install a washing mashine without a proper wires, outlets, circuit breakers, GFI, etc.
7) If you want to do something even better, ask to the electrician to install an emergency/stop button. (In my case, the emergency button is an ordinary (and very cheap) fire alarm pull station.)
8) always respect the oldest safety rule. Never put in the machines clothes that were previously treated with solvents and other inflamable products.
9) ALWAYS keep your machine clean. Most people ignore the monthly cleaning cycles pouring lots of chlorine bleach directly in the drum and running the longest cycle or a special sanitization cycle.
10) Once or twice a year (according to machineīs age) check ALL internal wires and other electrical parts.

If it is a washer-dryer, pay atention to the load size. Most of the washer-dryer combos can dry only 50% of the wash capacity.
Never dry more than 5 loads sequentialy in a washer-dryer combo. In some models, lint can built up between the tub and the drum. Run a wash or a rinse cycle to remove the lint.

Post# 334131 , Reply# 43   3/7/2009 at 06:57 (5,521 days old) by mrx ()        

All European machines use fire-retardant plastics, also the plastics have to be low-fume in the event of a serious fire so that they do not produce poisonous gasses when exposed to extreme heat. It's a requirement under European Law and a requirement for CE mark approval.

US regulations around plastic in appliances would be pretty much identical.

As the previous poster said, fire retardant plastics just don't burn quite so easily. They are not fully fire proof.

European detergents almost always have enzymes unless specifically different, in fact, most of them have more enzymes than US detergents as front loaders are optimised for a 'bio cycle' that uses enzymes to break down tough stains. Typically : Protese, amylase, lipase and cellulase. Oils are primarily broken down by surfactants, not enzymes.

Dryer fires are typically caused by lint, not oils or waxy build up.

The key to avoiding such fires is proper machine maintenance, i.e. clean out the filters and regularly clean the heat exchange in condenser dryers by washing it with a high pressure shower once a month.

There is no upward trend in washing machine / appliance fires. I have statistics for Ireland and they're actually quite rare causes of house fires.

In order of cause, most fires here are caused by : decorative / scented candles, cooking chips (french fries), unattended cooking appliances, cigerettes, open fires, covered heating appliances.

Washing machines, dryers and dishwashers are actually very low down the list.

Electrical fires are mostly caused by recessed light fittings, lamps with powerful bulbs and small shades and over-loaded circuits (DIY jobs bypassing fuses/breakers).

Post# 334132 , Reply# 44   3/7/2009 at 07:02 (5,521 days old) by mrx ()        

To give you an idea of European regs:

Any appliance that uses high currents (above 0.2Amps) requires that there are fire retardant plastics used throughout but plastics used in switches and electrical components must be able to withstand 750°C [1382°F] without any ignition.

Post# 334135 , Reply# 45   3/7/2009 at 07:52 (5,521 days old) by mrx ()        
Some statistics from the Irish Fire Services

 2006 Stats (Latests I could find)

Key statistics:

Total number of call outs : 33460
Malicious causes : 36%
Unknown causes: 28.8%
Chimney, Soot, Ash and Flu Fires : 16.42%
Other suspected causes : 7%
Matches, Cigarettes, Lighters : 1.51%
Illegal burning of rubbish / garden Waste (out of control): 2.8%
Cooking and heating : 2.81%
Electrical Appliances : 2%
Electrical Installations : 1%
Smoking materials : 0.9%
Using fuels to kindle fires / BBQs : less than .01%
Explosions : less than .0001%

In the big scheme of things, I'd say worry more about bored teenagers with cans of petrol (gas), crazy ex partners, and chimneys/flus than your washing machine :)

Post# 334274 , Reply# 46   3/8/2009 at 10:14 (5,520 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)        
Plastic Fires

 mrx wrote: "US regulations around plastic in appliances would be pretty much identical."

I remember Garrard stopped selling record changers in the US because derlin plastic was no longer allowed in electric appliances here. Derlin was the secret to Garrard's trip mechanism.

Ken D.

Post# 334319 , Reply# 47   3/8/2009 at 16:54 (5,520 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Seņora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        
I donīt know how they do it today but...

 A few years ago, E-lux used to intentionally apply a coating in all fire retardant plastics to produce small amounts of smoke, to make the fire detectable by the smoke detectors or by itīs smell.

Note that this coating only produces very small amount of smoke during the beginning of the fire.
Iīm not sure about the other manufacturers, but Iīm almost sure all of them do the same.

Post# 334402 , Reply# 48   3/8/2009 at 21:31 (5,520 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

~Dryer fires are typically caused by lint, not oils or waxy build up.


But don't the afforemntioned oils and waxes act like glue causing a lint buildup?



Post# 334461 , Reply# 49   3/9/2009 at 09:46 (5,519 days old) by mrx ()        

Ken,

I've never heard of Garrard, I did a little googling and they were sold to to Gradiente Electronica of Brazil in 1979.

There are differences in the standards, but there are equally examples of US products that cannot be imported into the EU. For example, I cannot use US electrical equipment even in a studio or laboratory context which has cables that do not comply with European regulations. Many US appliance cords would be considered a serious fire hazard here, as they're singly insulated. There are other minor technical issues that also cause non-compliance with law here.

The EU RoHS directive bans a whole load of hazardous chemicals and metals which are present in US equipment, but cannot be used here, including various solders used in electronic and electrical components.

There's also a whole range of cosmetic products ingredients that are acceptable in the states and banned here as they're known carcinogens.

The general rules applying to fire safety are very strict and very similar on either side of the Atlantic, even if the specific implementation may sometimes differ slightly.

An example of a cosmetics product recall notice:

Here's a list of developed countries, for which stats are available, by fire deaths per 100,000

Rank in order:
Singapore : 0.12
Switzerland : 0.5
Austria : 0.57
Spain : 0.65
Australia : 0.66
Italy : 0.68 (2001-2003)
Netherlands : 0.68 (1994-1996)
Germany : 0.71
New Zealand : 0.82
UK : 0.93
France : 1.04
Ireland : 1.07
Slovenia 1.09 (2002-2004)
Sweden : 1.11
Canada : 1.27
Greece : 1.31
Belgium : 1.34 (1995-1997)
Czech Republic : 1.39
Poland : 1.39
USA : 1.41
Denmark : 1.60
Japan : 1.72
Finland : 1.91
Hungary : 1.98

Source:
The Geneva Association - Risk & Insurance Economics - International Association for the Study of Insurance Economics
World Fire Statistics

What's really worrying is that of all the electrical products withdrawn / recalled in the EU for breech of EU regs 58%+ were from China.

Also, if you look on the product withdrawal notifications below, there were umpteen kids products put on the market here before xmas which contained lead! All of which were from china.

Cosmetic product withdrawal notice below:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK
Post# 334465 , Reply# 50   3/9/2009 at 10:01 (5,519 days old) by mrx ()        
Take a look at these recalls!

 Scary :

Have a browse through these :

The sheer number of imported kids 'cosmetics' and face paint etc that contained lead just before xmas 2008 was really worrying.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK
Post# 334557 , Reply# 51   3/9/2009 at 17:04 (5,519 days old) by rolls_rapide (.)        
Garrard

 I recognise the name.

My parents bought a new radiogram circa 1973. The turntable was Garrard: an autochanger, with 78, 45, 33, 16 rpm speeds; 7, 10 and 12 inch record sizes; switchable 78/LP stylus, spring-loaded suspension.

Mother always thought it looked like a coffin on legs.

My sister and I got our mitts upon it and broke the lift & return mechanism, but Mum's brother apparently fixed it.

Post# 337266 , Reply# 52   3/24/2009 at 14:58 (5,504 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        
Electrical codes and electrical fires

 Some thoughts in response to various above:

UL listing for GFIs in the U.S. only allows 5ma types. For the relatively long branch circuits we sometimes see here, that's not a lot of margin above natural leakage, depending on the circuit configuration. So that's one reason we worry about nusiance trips. Admittedly, some of this is overblown; some communitities still have code provisions that go back to the early 1970s, when the technology wasn't very good and nusiance trips were a significant problem. (In fact, there was a special rule for swimming pool circuits that allowed 15ma GFIs because 5ma types tripped so often as to make the circuit useless.) Very sensitive GFIs can be fooled by a variety of non-hazardous events. They have gotten a lot better, especially in the last ten years, about not being tripped by reactive-load surges. But solar events and RF being picked up by the circuit conductors can still fool them now and then. Having said that, local code where I live now allows a GFI on any circuit, although inspectors still discourage installation on refrigerator/freezer circuits.

I'll have to go dig up the numbers again, but IIRC the most common cause of electrical-related house fires in the U.S. is faulty appliances, followed by obsolete wiring and then lightning strikes. From observations where I live, fires in houses built after 1970 or so are very rare. Most of the electrical fires seem to be in houses built before that, or in mobile homes (house trailers). And actually, I think all electrical fires are small in number compared to careless smoking, and cooking fires.

Mister X, your description of the grounding system is pretty much true of the U.S., except that the earth bonding is connected on the customer's side of the meter, in the main panel. Practically, there's little difference since the neutral bypasses the meter socket.

The problem with the single-insulated, metal-cased hand tools was not really with the basic concept. The basic problem was that back when, there were so many houses in the U.S which had wiring systems with no grounded conductor, or maybe having ground through conduit but only 2-prong outlets (or worse, only light bulb sockets). People would buy those 3-prong-to-2-prong adaptors, but then not bother to hook up the ground provision. And then a fault would occur and they'd get zapped. That's not to say that double-insulated appliances aren't safer, but the old way was not terribly unsafe when it was connected properly. This is all assuming that the appliance in question actually had a grounded plug. Not all of them did; some, lamps in particular, used the neutral as ground and relied on the outlet being polarized properly. That was a terrible idea.

Toggle, that was an interesting bit about the NYC codes and BX cable. Back when I was a teenager and my dad was teaching me basic wiring, he taught me that the flexible greenfield-type conduit is a poor conductor and that most codes, even back then, didn't allow it as the grounding conductor. I don't ever remember seeing pre-wired BX cable that didn't include a green wire.

Rolls: There's LED lamps available in the U.S. now. At the moment, they are being marketed mostly towards office/commercial installations, but you can get them. I've been meaning to get a couple and try them out.

Post# 337269 , Reply# 53   3/24/2009 at 15:23 (5,504 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

~Oh yes our laundry appliances are getting more "efficient" in the USA. But are our clothes getting CLEANER? Personally I think not.


Efficiency by definition means doing a job with less resouces. If you are not getting the same job done (clothes or dishes are still dirty) with less resources, it is not an efficiency gain. It's a mind-f***.

Post# 337273 , Reply# 54   3/24/2009 at 15:35 (5,504 days old) by toggleswitch2 ()        

~My dad was teaching me basic wiring, he taught me that the flexible greenfield-type conduit is a poor conductor and that most codes, even back then, didn't allow it as the grounding conductor.

It may be poor but it works!

Without looking, I had plugged a blow-dryer into the bathroom fixture above the bathroom sink. (Remember those outlets?). One prong was in the outlet, the other was making contact with the brass fixture itself (somehow the contour of the metal allowed a snug fit against the side of the plug's prong. The blow dryer ran perfectly! Did not notice it until I looked up!

So interestingly, building in NYC that were from the 1800 (or before) that were electricifed later (but before 1946) have better grounding [due to the type of wire used] than my house on Long Island that was built in 1946 using Romex(fabric or cloth-covered). At that time there was NO provision for grounding the cables, oulets or lights. Today in that home the original 10 lines (I added 30 more) are still not grounded....nor can they be using existing wiring).


Post# 337327 , Reply# 55   3/24/2009 at 20:40 (5,504 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
My Neptune washer/dryer set draws 10 watts even when off (to power the electronics, I guess). So I replaced the 110 volt outlet with a switched outlet. Into the outlet went a small 3-way surge protector. The washer and dryer (gas) plug into that. The Neptune remembers its settings so there is no problem removing power to it when it's not in use. It comes back up instantly with all its settings intact.

This arrangement would also allow me to leave the washer door ajar to minimize mold/odors, but the washer has never had a mold/odor problem so I don't bother with that.


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